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On a vet squad with 3x plasma, it seems like against anything worth shooting plasma against out at 24" you're just giving your opponent the ability to have wound wrap shenanigans. On a vet squad with 3x meltas, you're never going to sit still with the vet squad just to snap off 6 lasgun shots out to 24" when you could be getting into range to kill things with BS4 melta.

Given that the only advantage of a lasgun over a shotgun is those 24" shots, is there ever a reason to take lasguns on vets (apart form being easier to model)? Or is this all just so moot because vets will so infrequently be charging into close combat?

I guess with the shotguns you at least have that as an option, no matter how little you choose to exercise it.

I have two basic set ups for my vet squads:

1. melta x3 w/ 6 shotguns, and sgt with las pistol and chainsword. Sometimes I add the demolition doctrine.

2. plasma x3, plasma pistol for sgt, and lasguns on 6.

Shotguns/meltas let you assault.

plasma/lasgun are rapid fire.

Do not ever mix/match the two different weapons for vets. True, you are never realy thinking of assaulting with your melta squads, however, sometimes it is advantageous to do so.

I can never trust vets myself, shotguns or not. Personally I find in the end it doesn't make a differance. Some games you want to charge, so you want to hide furthur make and shoot. Still it depends your purpose of them.

FRFSRF gives 12 lasgun shots at >12". That's an extra 1.3 MEQ deaths, though obviously you're usually better off not firing at all against small units.

But testify, vets will always be in a transport. You cant give orders to a unit that is embarked.

Unless you run aircav which means they gotta pop out spmetime

I wouldn't reccommend shotguns in an all plasma veteran squad. Shotguns are purely aggresive weapons, like Flamers and Grenade Launchers and should only be used if you intended to assault the target you're shooting at. They work really well with an assault Veterans; three flamers, shotguns, and a power weapon.

Melta's and shotguns don't really mix, but if you've really got nothing to shoot at besides infantry...

Lasguns would be good w/ Bastonne if you used him but it all depends on the squads loadout...

Shotguns simply seem to be much more likely to come in handy for veterans, especially with melta vets. Getting the charge is much better than the alternative of being charged if it's obvious that they're in range. It's also a way of getting that much closer to contesting whatever objective the enemy might be sitting on.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Shotguns simply seem to be much more likely to come in handy for veterans, especially with melta vets. Getting the charge is much better than the alternative of being charged if it's obvious that they're in range. It's also a way of getting that much closer to contesting whatever objective the enemy might be sitting on.

Your opponent charges you and he'll wipe you out, leaving his troops open for being shot at during your turn.
You charge him, he will win, wipe out your squad and be free to move/assault again the following turn. Assaulting veteran squads is really, really stupid unless your enemy is tau or something.

Well they get more shots and with their higher BS then the points would be best spent there.

Testify wrote:FRFSRF gives 12 lasgun shots at >12". That's an extra 1.3 MEQ deaths, though obviously you're usually better off not firing at all against small units.

Yeah, losing FRF is the other thing they lose. I can't see using FRF any more likely than charging in with vets (if anything, probably less so). To be fair, though, while 6 FRF lasguns kill 1.3 MEq, 6 shotguns kill .88 - they're both looking at about 1 marine down, and they're about the same without FRF. Plus, of course, the shotguns get to add close combat attacks.

Anyways, I'm thinking of taking some plasma vets, but even here taking shotguns. 6 lasguns aren't going to do a lot of damage at 24", especially against anything worth shooting plasma at, and even if you do put down a wound, then, depending on what you shoot at, it might actually make the plasma less effective due to wound wrapping. At 12", it's the same thing, either I'm shooting plasma at something that lasguns can't hurt well, or I'm shooting plasma at something that will benefit from wound wrapping with the lasguns, or I'm shooting at something that it's not worth shooting plasma against. In the last case, this would be the exact kind of thing I'd actually want to charge my veterans into (as it's probably a really weakened unit), and getting two shots with the option to get in two close combat attacks just in case seems like a better deal than lasguns, which are only shooting twice.

Plus, if I ever didn't want plasma, I'm sure that shotguns pair with any other special weapon at least tied with lasguns, and in some cases better.

I guess with the shotguns you at least have that as an option, no matter how little you choose to exercise it.

This is your answer. You gave it yourself.

FRFSRF is not an option for veterans. You want either fire on my target or bring it down depending on situation and target.

martin74 wrote:I have two basic set ups for my vet squads:

1. melta x3 w/ 6 shotguns, and sgt with las pistol and ccw

2. plasma x3, plasma pistol for sgt, and lasguns on 6.

Shotguns/meltas let you assault.

plasma/lasgun are rapid fire.

I almost agree with martin74! I bold texted my change, plus I don't add extas(demolitions, etc...)

Testify wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:Shotguns simply seem to be much more likely to come in handy for veterans, especially with melta vets. Getting the charge is much better than the alternative of being charged if it's obvious that they're in range. It's also a way of getting that much closer to contesting whatever objective the enemy might be sitting on.

Assaulting veteran squads is really, really stupid unless your enemy is tau or something.

That's a really, really false statement.

KplKeegan wrote:

Testify wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:Shotguns simply seem to be much more likely to come in handy for veterans, especially with melta vets. Getting the charge is much better than the alternative of being charged if it's obvious that they're in range. It's also a way of getting that much closer to contesting whatever objective the enemy might be sitting on.

Assaulting veteran squads is really, really stupid unless your enemy is tau or something.

That's a really, really false statement.

Its not a really, really, false statement.

The number of situations in which throwing your vets at a remotely competent CC unit is so slim, limited, and situational, its almost not even worth mentioning. The only vet squad you can run this way is 3x flamers, demo charge, and a power fist. Not only is this squad expensive, but its still 10 T3 A1 5+ models. Furthermore, the only way in which you will be able to shoot and then assault immediately is to foot slog the turn prior, which obviously exposes them to small arms fire. If you're opponent can't seriously damage or outright destroy that squad before it gets to shoot/assault, then your opponent is doing something seriously wrong.

Power blobs are for assaulting/shooting/not dying. Vets are best for mech and shooting 3x plasma or melta.

Blacksails wrote:

Its not a really, really, false statement.

It is.

The number of situations in which throwing your vets at a remotely competent CC unit is so slim, limited, and situational, its almost not even worth mentioning. The only vet squad you can run this way is 3x flamers, demo charge, and a power fist.

At what point did I say throwing them at CC ordiented units? I've found that assaulting Veterans with x2 Flamers, Heavy Flamer, and a Power Weapon is far more reliable at digging out troops sitting in cover, on objectives then shooting them out. 2 Flamer Templates, 2 Heavy Flamer Templates (One from the turreted Chimera) and six shotguns and then charging into combat has far better results than shooting them with melta/plasma guns.

Furthermore, the only way in which you will be able to shoot and then assault immediately is to foot slog the turn prior, which obviously exposes them to small arms fire.

If only Guard had a way of making walking faster. Like a vehicle made to carry them from one end to the other...

KplKeegan wrote:
At what point did I say throwing them at CC ordiented units? I've found that assaulting Veterans with x2 Flamers, Heavy Flamer, and a Power Weapon is far more reliable at digging out troops sitting in cover, on objectives then shooting them out. 2 Flamer Templates, 2 Heavy Flamer Templates (One from the turreted Chimera) and six shotguns and then charging into combat has far better results than shooting them with melta/plasma guns.

Assaulting what, exactly? Even a tactical squad would rip apart a vet squad in CC.

If I was a veteran I wouldnt want a Shotgun...

I'd opt for the longest ranged gun available and let the new fish get in the face of the enemy... At least I earned the right to sit back and plink away =]

Blacksails wrote:The number of situations in which throwing your vets at a remotely competent CC unit is so slim, limited, and situational, its almost not even worth mentioning.

Are the odds of you wanting to get into CC with vets slim? Certainly, but what are the odds that you're going to want to sit still and shoot a couple of lasgun shots out to 24" (where they may even hurt, due to wound wrapping)? Those seem literally non-existant.

Yes, without some source of stubborn and a power fist (which, I would note, it's possible for vets to get, but that's beside the point), you're not exactly going to run around charging death company. However, what about really wounded stuff? Let's say that you've got some terminators in front of some plasma vets, and your other shooting brings it down to a lone model with a thunder hammer and storm shield. Are you really going to want to risk a full plasma fusilade (and the burns that that entails), just to pick off a single terminator? With the shotguns, you have the option of shooting it, and if it doesn't fail an armor save, you can then rush in and make him take some more (before he gets to swing back). If you had lasguns, if the termie survives then you've got to bring in another unit to bail them out, or decide in advance to take the much riskier option of just shooting that single termie with plasma guns.

To talk about vets as a good CC option in most cases is silly, but you're not ONLY going to have full strength or completely dead units on the field to face off against. In this case, there certainly will be circumstances where vets would actually be good in close combat relative to what they're charging (because it has been hurt so badly). In these cases, the shotgun gives you an option to charge in those opportunities that arise where a 10x vet squad would be at an advantage charging. Giving this option up just to shoot a couple of lasguns at very long range doesn't seem worth it.

KplKeegan wrote:

If only Guard had a way of making walking faster. Like a vehicle made to carry them from one end to the other...

I think you missed this part...

Blacksails wrote:Furthermore, the only way in which you will be able to shoot and then assault immediately is to foot slog the turn prior

Which means you have to exit the vehicle, shoot, then wait for a turn before shooting and assaulting again. The point is, you're still sitting there, out in the open, for an entire turn, waiting to be shot, and assaulted by any competent player.

Also, this vet squad costs 145pts before the chimera. That's 10pts shy of a whole melta vet squad in the chimera.

If you're basing the viability of shotguns in a vet squad on your misguided view that vets can somehow be a legitimate threat in CC, than you're going about it the wrong way.

The simplest and most logical way of looking at it, is to match up weapon types. Assault weapons with assault weapons, and rapid fire with rapid fire.

Assaulting anything with vets is such a rare scenario, and the vast majority of units in the game will have their way with your 10-man T3 5+ squad.

Considering half the armies in the game are MEQ, a basic tactical squad can handily kill a vet squad, not to mention the vets will almost always have to endure a full round of shooting first, and risk being assaulted first. With the chimera not being an assault vehicle, there's just no conceivable scenario I can think of between two competent players running equally competent lists that vets will NEED to assault, get the assault, not die due to shooting first, and then not die in CC.

Vets shoot. They do it from the confines of a chimera. They may be sacrificed by driving 12", drifting 180 degrees, jumping out, and unloading 3x melta. They will die next turn, almost guaranteed, but they will hopefully have done more than 100pts of damage. Plasma vets will stay in the cozy confines of their chimera, as they can shoot up to 24". Will shotguns or lasguns make any game changing difference? Likely not. I run all lasguns simply because I use Mordian models and I don't want to hack them up to put shotties on them.

At the end of the day, in the overwhelming vast majority of situations, the difference is negligible, and your vets will likely never assault something of their own free will. If anything, I think the modelling argument is more persuasive, and if you want the versatility to run your vets as a power blob.

Blacksails wrote: Also, this vet squad costs 145pts before the chimera. That's 10pts shy of a whole melta vet squad in the chimera.

I think you missed this part:

KplKeegan wrote:Veterans with x2 Flamers, Heavy Flamer, and a Power Weapon

They cost 110 Points. 10 Points more than a Melta Veteran Squad before the Chimera.

Blacksails wrote:Which means you have to exit the vehicle, shoot, then next turn pivot before shooting and assaulting again. The point is, you're still sitting there, out in the open, for an entire turn, waiting to be shot, and assaulted by any competent player.

Or pull up beside the unit I intend to charge still in the Chimera, pop smoke, then next turn, pivot the vehicle 180 degrees, then disembark, shoot, and then charge.

Blacksails wrote:If you're basing the viability of shotguns in a vet squad on your misguided view that vets can somehow be a legitimate threat in CC, than you're going about it the wrong way.

I'm basing their viability on personal experience. I'm saying Veterans w/ Flamers, Shotguns, and Power Weapons are more likely to take objectives then Veterans shooting Meltas into cover, and that there's a reason to take Shotguns in the first place. Sorry my misguided view doesn't fit with your uncreative tunnel vision.

Considering half the armies in the game are MEQ, a basic tactical squad can handily kill a vet squad, not to mention the vets will almost always have to endure a full round of shooting first, and risk being assaulted first. With the chimera not being an assault vehicle, there's just no conceivable scenario I can think of between two competent players running equally competent lists that vets will NEED to assault, get the assault, not die due to shooting first, and then not die in CC.

Move Chimera close to the objective, pop smoke, next turn pivot the tank, move 8", shoot, charge. No getting out before hand. And three flamer templates add on more auto-hits than Meltas or Plasmas, plus the shotguns, plus the charge. And since Veterans carry frag grenades, the Power Fist goes last, and any marines that survive get a single attack, while you get two for each living Veteran and Three Power Weapon attacks before the fist swings.

Vets shoot. They do it from the confines of a chimera. They may be sacrificed by driving 12", drifting 180 degrees, jumping out, and unloading 3x melta. They will die next turn, almost guaranteed, but they will hopefully have done more than 100pts of damage. Plasma vets will stay in the cozy confines of their chimera, as they can shoot up to 24".

Pretty pointless when Marines are in cover, sitting on an objective.


You're honestly trying to compare apples to oranges. Vets with meltas and plasmas are good at killing elite, expensive troops, while Flamer Vets, in my experience, are far better at contesting objectives and burning troops out of cover. Shotguns help more in the latter than the former, and is a good example of taking shotguns over lasguns.

Ailaros wrote:In this case, there certainly will be circumstances where vets would actually be good in close combat relative to what they're charging (because it has been hurt so badly). In these cases, the shotgun gives you an option to charge in those opportunities that arise where a 10x vet squad would be at an advantage charging. Giving this option up just to shoot a couple of lasguns at very long range doesn't seem worth it.

Thank you.

You know what, I'm an idiot. I completely forgot you can assault out of a vehicle if it didn't move. Ignore that point I made, I derped pretty hard.

As to the point difference, most people who advocate that setup normally run a demo charge as well, which is what I was going off of.

Also, your squad is actually worse at rooting MEQ units out of cover than plasma or melta, as those marines will get their armour save.

Simply put, the point I'm trying to make about your squad is that the only thing its better at doing is killing those select few units that camp in the back field with 5+ saves (I guess 4+ partly with the heavy flamer). I just can't see the overall utility of a unit that specializes in such a unique role. Considering that most armies are mechanized, melta and plasma will see more overall usefulness, point per point, than this flamer/assault squad.

In the end, I can't see that unit being a legitimate threat against most competitive army lists that float around the tournament scene. While it may work with your local meta, for all we know you could play against an Eldar Ranger/Pathfinder heavy meta where flamers are useful.

Finally, on topic, against most lists I've ran against, I find myself not firing my lasguns anyways. Most of the time, I'd risk giving my opponent the ability to play wound shenanigans and basically nullify one of my plasma/melta shots. I also believe that if a victory or loss boils down to the difference in you bringing shotguns or lasguns, there's probably a bigger factor at play that needed to be addressed.

I've had one scenario where having the lasguns was useful, but other than that, I spend most of my games not even shooting them. The melta squads are too busy shooting vehicles, and the plasma squads are either doing the same or shooting TEQ units, and I don't want to risk wound allocations problems.

I never use shotguns, I try to stay as far away from the enemy as possible, in which cases I like the added range of lasguns even if they don't help much compared to plasma guns. If I plan to assault with them I simply only shoot the one plasma or laspistol the sergeant has or don't assault at all. For me taking shotguns is like taking a powerfist, I may use it, but I probably won't, so I don't take it. Granted I might use shotguns with flamer vets, but I rarely use them and don't like the look of shotguns period so...

Blacksails wrote:Also, your squad is actually worse at rooting MEQ units out of cover than plasma or melta, as those marines will get their armour save.

But I hit more and wound more, forcing the Marines to roll more dice. The more dice they roll, the more likely they will die. Adding to that is the charge itself. Sure I might lose a couple Veterans, but I get at least 10 more attacks and three power weapon attacks, giving them more dice to roll.

I just can't see the overall utility of a unit that specializes in such a unique role. Considering that most armies are mechanized, melta and plasma will see more overall usefulness, point per point, than this flamer/assault squad.

They really help in grabbing objectives, honestly. As troops tend to go to ground in the last couple turns, you might be able to pluck a few off, but a Flamer Vet squad can mean the difference between contested and taken in some instances.

In the end, I can't see that unit being a legitimate threat against most competitive army lists that float around the tournament scene. While it may work with your local meta, for all we know you could play against an Eldar Ranger/Pathfinder heavy meta where flamers are useful.

I'm stuck on 4x4 and a 4x6 table with alot of assault heavy veteran players. While melta/plasma vets are good at what they do, I can't kite units the effectively, so the Flamer Vets work with them in concert; the Plasma cripples two-three Marines and the Flamers try and finish the job. With some careful planning, I'll have an intact Flamer Squad for the mid field objective.


[quoteFinally, on topic, against most lists I've ran against, I find myself not firing my lasguns anyways. Most of the time, I'd risk giving my opponent the ability to play wound shenanigans and basically nullify one of my plasma/melta shots. I also believe that if a victory or loss boils down to the difference in you bringing shotguns or lasguns, there's probably a bigger factor at play that needed to be addressed.

I've had one scenario where having the lasguns was useful, but other than that, I spend most of my games not even shooting them. The melta squads are too busy shooting vehicles, and the plasma squads are either doing the same or shooting TEQ units, and I don't want to risk wound allocations problems.

I guess neither of us will agree here on the flamer vet squad, but I guess it works for you, so I'll leave it at that.

I do honestly believe that the modelling aspect is almost a bigger factor than any difference on the table top. The only reason I'll never use shotguns is because I don't want to model them on my Mordians. That's it.

*Shrug* I genuinely believe it doesn't even have an important enough role to be any significant factor in your list.

Blacksails wrote:I also believe that if a victory or loss boils down to the difference in you bringing shotguns or lasguns, there's probably a bigger factor at play that needed to be addressed.

Sure, but -

Blacksails wrote: I find myself not firing my lasguns anyways. Most of the time, I'd risk giving my opponent the ability to play wound shenanigans and basically nullify one of my plasma/melta shots.

Even if it doesn't matter most of the time, I'm wondering if it's ever worth bothering with lasguns. It seems like for how rarely you're going to say "oh, I wish I had shotguns!" the number of times you're going to say "oh, I wish I had lasguns!" is practically impossible. Both weapons aren't being used much, and both have the same number of shots most of the time, the only real difference appears to be that shotguns give you options that a lasgun does not.

If that's the case, I might as well always just make vets with shotguns.

I guess so. There's no harm in bringing shotguns, and I guess they do offer more versatility. I just can't be bothered to model them, and they also double as my blob squads, so I need those lasguns to stay.

i dont know about the modeling part being hard, i run a vet squad with shottys, and all i did was clip off some of the lasgun tip and paint those 2 lil nubs boltgun. now i have 6 tactical over under shotguns.

Ailaros wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Even if it doesn't matter most of the time, I'm wondering if it's ever worth bothering with lasguns. It seems like for how rarely you're going to say "oh, I wish I had shotguns!" the number of times you're going to say "oh, I wish I had lasguns!" is practically impossible. Both weapons aren't being used much, and both have the same number of shots most of the time, the only real difference appears to be that shotguns give you options that a lasgun does not.

If that's the case, I might as well always just make vets with shotguns.

I think that's pretty much it, it doesn't really matter one way or the other. I could see giving the plasma vets you talked about in the OP shotguns just to so you're not tempted to actually shoot them at something on the off chance you get a couple of wounds in and allow wound allocation shenanigans.