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So, this weekend, I finally got around to reading the space marines codex, all 145 pages of it (which for me is quite a feat). I'm glad that I did, because the fluff is fantastic. Trying to understand the imperium without reading this codex is sort of like trying to understand the american civil war by watching movies, and neglecting to watch gods and generals - not required, but you definitely miss something without it. Even their talk of ultramarines being the "real" marines was justified enough so as to be less onerous as I've heard others complain.

But I didn't post this in the tactics forum to talk about the fluff. I actually had some questions now that I've actually seen the stats and figures in the flesh. Everything else I knew about space marines was from innumerable bits and pieces over the years, so some things struck me as odd. For example...

- Drop pods! They only cost as much as a rhino!? Why does anybody even bother playing anything else? I'm sure I'm not the first person to lay hands on the space marines codex and get overly exuberant about this particular space marine unit, and if I'm just another SM noob in the line, you'll have to excuse me, but these things seem to be the greatest invention since the pairing of corned beef and hash. They do everything you'd ever realistically want a transport to do, better than basically any other transport, and for HOW few points? I think I'm going to hyperventilate here...

- So, I knew about combat tactics before, and obviously knew about ATSKNF, but it wasn't until I saw both of them right next to each other in the codex that it clicked for me just how strong these abilities are. It makes the way too many points you spend for calgar seem almost worth it. Furthermore, it makes anything that disrupts this beautiful pairing absolutely insane. With the possible exception of khan (and the very remotely possible exception of shrike), I can't see why taking chapter tactics would be worth taking. Stubborn is great, but losing the above pair just to get a 1/3rd boost in killing power with some of your weapons doesn't seem like a good deal to me, as you're giving up so many options in the pursuit of pigeonholing your firepower. Not to say I wouldn't mind better bolters or twin-linked meltaguns, but am I the only person who sees the cost of these as too high? And, of course taking a chaplain and replacing these abilities with fearless seems flat crazy, am I wrong?

- People are quick to point out just how awesome rending psycannons are, and how nifty riflemen dreads are, but why no love for the assault cannon? It does everything a psycannon does (basically), but with an extra shot. Furthermore, it feels like it's the best weapon in the codex for the spirit of space marines. It can handle anything, and handle it well. 150 points for an assault cannon dread in a pod seems like a steal, and for 160 points you get that with a twin-linked autocannon. You basically land anywhere you want and pump the side of some vehicle full of rending and S7 hot lead, with the ability to force enough firepower to select juicier backfield targets to boot.

- They say that your "average" space marine company is 6x tac squads, 2x devs, and 2x assault marines. It immediately struck me that what they blatantly tell you to take in the fluff, actually seems like a really winning setup for space marines. I'd probably dump the assault marines (which I can't quite wrap my head around. On the one hand, they seem awesome, being only slightly more expensive than tac squads, but being much better in close combat, and being able to basically guarantee the charge, while on the other hand, the utter lack of upgrades seems very strange), and replace them with something else fast (like DS termies or something), but it seems to play up the SM codex's strengths, especially to new players with poor list-building skills. I haven't seen a lot of SM lists (but I know the roughly 1 netlist anti-tournament razorzpam list), but am I right in that they look more or less kind of sort of like this? Maybe it's just my guard tendency to drool on troops choices, but it seems like a mostly (or at least heavily) tac squad army would be a good idea.

- Scout bikes. 100 points for outflanking 6 BS4 S6 attacks that shoot out to 36"? Why have I never seen these before?

- I've heard people complain about devastators because "they're not longfangs". Only 150 points for 4 BS4 missile launcher shots beats the pants off its equivalent in guard (which is rather known as a shooty army), and the idea of said number of points for 4 BS4 multimeltas is highly intriguing, especially given that you can combat squad them (and take them in a drop pod! Sure, no shooting the first turn, but still...) What's the deal here?

- Tigurius is a BEAST. I never thought I'd come across anything that was a better HQ unit than eldrad, but I think I may have found it. Yeah, he's really expensive, but the HUGE number of options that you have to do basically anything, not only with himself, but other squads seems just crazy, am I right? It seems like he's way too good of a support unit to pass up, if you've got the points to be able to take him. I mean, the regular librarian also looks good, but by the time you make him an epistolary or give him a storm shield, he's starting to vaguely approach that point where it's a much better value to just bite the bullet and take the character.

- Why would you ever take honor guard? Expensive unit with no invul save and only I4 (not to mention getting drawn in against ICs) means that you're not going to be able to stand up to a big bag of real close combat squads. It's especially curious when you compare them to the command squad, which has the ability to mix it up with a couple of storm shields and a couple of lightning claws or combi-weapons, and a thunder hammer to make a mixed squad that's actually good at a variety of things for the same price. It struck me that the relative crappiness of the honor guard would actually prevent me from taking a chapter master, unless I was just going to take one alone.

Anyways, it was a real pleasure to finally get around to reading a document I should have read years ago. Thanks in advance for helping me understand the codex better. I'm sure there are a lot of veteran SM players who appreciate a fresh set of eyes appreciating the quality of their long-favorite army.

Drop pods are quite good I'd say. The fact that they are AV 12 also makes them kind of nice. The only problem is the reliability and reserve rolls might make for the other half the pods you have. ALso just 2 pods will not work that well since one guy in the enemy zone at turn one usually means a suicide run

Ironclads are also sometimes a bit underrated. The armor on that thing just means bad ass tar pit unit. Alot of things will have a hard time getting through that thing without rending or some sort of power fist.

Bikes have been put to good effect before. They can get pretty pricy which limits their numbers. Also losing that BS4 really hurts.

Combat tactics has some very interesting play mechanics and I agree it is under used. Most people tend to like the other options given. Frankly I think the BA benefit more from a chaplin than the vanilla marines. Rerolls to hit works better with lightning claws terminators I think. Calgar really is just too expensive I think. you almost always take the terminator upgrade so your HQ is like 265 points!. Most times I can pass morale already with Ld 9 so it's not worth that much. Getting run down in close combat just means no-retreat saves anyway so I don't see how it really helps free up enemy assault units for shooting next turn.

Tiberius is just too many points I think for his survivability. Just 2 wounds and no invulv save. 3 psy powers is also kind of overkill as you really risk killing yourself with perils. Not all of the powers are going to be worth it either. I've yet to find a good use for teleporting around and the shooting all have different ranges which make them kind of hard to use on the same target. Zone of banishment works very well though. Usually a regular librarian will get what you need.


Honor guard and command squad I kind of agree with you that I don't really ever see them used. The sternguard however is where I think the action is at. All those lovely bolters really make a nice combo.

Psycannons and Assault Cannons have the same number of shots in heavy mode. The Psycannon just has an Assault Mode and is Str7 instead of 6.

Devestators arn't worth it onlys because there are cheaper ways to get the firepower they can get. For 30 additional points over the 4 missile squad I can get 2 Typhoon Speeders. I gain extreme mobility and 2 heavy bolters for that extra 30 points.

The first thing you should know about the basic SM codex is the sheer numbet of diffrent army types you can feild.

for example.

-All biker army
-Master of the forge /w 6 dreads
-Deepstrikeing tactical drop pod army
-DSing Terminator army
-Landraider Assault terminator force
-Tactial Rhino/razorback army
-Ect.
(some arey types are better than others. Motf w/ 6 dreds is not very effective but it sure is fun)

bascly, when someone says you are fighting "space marines" you can never be 100% sure what army your fighting.

- drop pods are really fun, i often take at least one just to screw with my enemy. I kit a tac squad inside with a melta gun, land right behind your enemies biggest tank, and pop it first turn. The death wind upgrade may seem rather expensive, but in certain situations it could be worth it. dropping danger close to guard foot army, the pod may be ignored in favor of shooting at the tac squad or shooting heavy weapons at fast approaching vehicles. then next turn a S5 large blast is dealing lots of wounds to the poor guardsmen.


-overlooked by a lot of people i have talked to is the synergy you get from a camocloak scout squad with a thunder fire canon. Techmarine gives ruins +1 cover, scouts now have a 2+ cover save. and the TFC gets a 3+ save. (not to mention how deadly the TFC is against hordes (and at 100pts its a steal!))

-also overlooked for the devestators is the signum ( i have met long term SM players that have never heard of this thing!)
(this gets used insted of the sarge shooting)

3 Ml devs at bs4
1 Lascannon at bs6!
( a LC in a dev squad gets expensive at 35pts( but bs6 makes it worth it))

But at only 10pts in a tactical squad, why would you not take one of the best anti tank weapons in the game!?

-Assault marines are good when you want your army to be focused around mobility (i use mine to support my rhinos speeding up the field, and they assault right after the tac squads rapid fires into a unit)




-Adsknf is actualy vary scary, severaly times i have had a sarget be the only remaning guy in the squad that routes, have him auto-rally, and run back into the fight

-My unit that always gets its job done is a squad of lightning claw terminators inside of a crusader. thay absouloutaly annilate large squads, on more than one occation i have had a squad of 7(+ chaplain) assault a 30boy ork squad and wipe them. (28 power attacks that reroll to hit and wound +fearless wounds if the orks are still fearless)
Fearless from the chaplain never really affects my A terms because its only a 9 wound squad, and if i take enough wounds for fearless to matter, they are dead anyways.

Ailaros wrote:
- Drop pods! They only cost as much as a rhino!? Why does anybody even bother playing anything else? I'm sure I'm not the first person to lay hands on the space marines codex and get overly exuberant about this particular space marine unit, and if I'm just another SM noob in the line, you'll have to excuse me, but these things seem to be the greatest invention since the pairing of corned beef and hash. They do everything you'd ever realistically want a transport to do, better than basically any other transport, and for HOW few points? I think I'm going to hyperventilate here...

While these are amazing (my crimson fists are a DP army. Razorbacks also get taken a lot for the extra fire power. If you want to use the heavy weapon from a tac squad you can't combat squad half of it into the pod and the other half on the table. Enter the razorback where you toss the special weapon and sgt to get closer while the heavy weapon deploys in cover. As for BT...pass on these since we don't have the same drop pod assault. BA don't really need pods if you are running a DoA list but a rhino rush is based on the fast aspect of the vehicle and they cost less if assault marines don't have packs.

Ailaros wrote:
- So, I knew about combat tactics before, and obviously knew about ATSKNF, but it wasn't until I saw both of them right next to each other in the codex that it clicked for me just how strong these abilities are. It makes the way too many points you spend for calgar seem almost worth it. Furthermore, it makes anything that disrupts this beautiful pairing absolutely insane. With the possible exception of khan (and the very remotely possible exception of shrike), I can't see why taking chapter tactics would be worth taking. Stubborn is great, but losing the above pair just to get a 1/3rd boost in killing power with some of your weapons doesn't seem like a good deal to me, as you're giving up so many options in the pursuit of pigeonholing your firepower. Not to say I wouldn't mind better bolters or twin-linked meltaguns, but am I the only person who sees the cost of these as too high? And, of course taking a chaplain and replacing these abilities with fearless seems flat crazy, am I wrong?

Actually it is nice but being able to take sterguard as scoring is really nice and lets me take veterans as the backbone of an army. Otherwise yes I do run just normal combat tactics. While twin-linking flamers and meltas is nice I don't use multi-meltas that much and if I want to run hammernaters I will play BT.

Ailaros wrote:
- People are quick to point out just how awesome rending psycannons are, and how nifty riflemen dreads are, but why no love for the assault cannon? It does everything a psycannon does (basically), but with an extra shot. Furthermore, it feels like it's the best weapon in the codex for the spirit of space marines. It can handle anything, and handle it well. 150 points for an assault cannon dread in a pod seems like a steal, and for 160 points you get that with a twin-linked autocannon. You basically land anywhere you want and pump the side of some vehicle full of rending and S7 hot lead, with the ability to force enough firepower to select juicier backfield targets to boot.

As grey templar said psycannons in heavy mode (always on vehicles) is better than normall assault cannons due to being the same number of shots but higher strength. My BT take the assault cannon since it's free but the normal marines I go with the extra range of the autocannons. Plus being twin-linked is really nice.

Ailaros wrote:
- They say that your "average" space marine company is 6x tac squads, 2x devs, and 2x assault marines. It immediately struck me that what they blatantly tell you to take in the fluff, actually seems like a really winning setup for space marines. I'd probably dump the assault marines (which I can't quite wrap my head around. On the one hand, they seem awesome, being only slightly more expensive than tac squads, but being much better in close combat, and being able to basically guarantee the charge, while on the other hand, the utter lack of upgrades seems very strange), and replace them with something else fast (like DS termies or something), but it seems to play up the SM codex's strengths, especially to new players with poor list-building skills. I haven't seen a lot of SM lists (but I know the roughly 1 netlist anti-tournament razorzpam list), but am I right in that they look more or less kind of sort of like this? Maybe it's just my guard tendency to drool on troops choices, but it seems like a mostly (or at least heavily) tac squad army would be a good idea.

The biggest problem assault have is that they are vulnerable to all the anti-infantry fire until they make it to CC. Then they are marines with a couple of extra attacks. Any dedicated CC unit such as Incubi, Death Co, etc will eat them up. Now I do have an 1850 list where I run a full company for grins. In C:SM though you don't really need 6 troops since you can combat squad and get 6 troops with 3 slots full.

Ailaros wrote:
- Scout bikes. 100 points for outflanking 6 BS4 S6 attacks that shoot out to 36"? Why have I never seen these before?

Speeders, mainly I would presume. Bikes are also open for the infantry killing.

Ailaros wrote:
- I've heard people complain about devastators because "they're not longfangs". Only 150 points for 4 BS4 missile launcher shots beats the pants off its equivalent in guard (which is rather known as a shooty army), and the idea of said number of points for 4 BS4 multimeltas is highly intriguing, especially given that you can combat squad them (and take them in a drop pod! Sure, no shooting the first turn, but still...) What's the deal here?

A) Never take them in a pod. No shooting necessarily the first turn or the turn they come in. Plus you've wasted points on marines that are worthless. You cannot bring in all the pods turn one, just half. The others wait in reserve meaning you risk coming in piecemeal. The issue with MLs in devs is they are free in tac squads that can also combat squad but take objectives. Go back and look at the cost of a lascannon in a dev squad then the cost in the tac squad. Yeouch!

Ailaros wrote:
- Tigurius is a BEAST. I never thought I'd come across anything that was a better HQ unit than eldrad, but I think I may have found it. Yeah, he's really expensive, but the HUGE number of options that you have to do basically anything, not only with himself, but other squads seems just crazy, am I right? It seems like he's way too good of a support unit to pass up, if you've got the points to be able to take him. I mean, the regular librarian also looks good, but by the time you make him an epistolary or give him a storm shield, he's starting to vaguely approach that point where it's a much better value to just bite the bullet and take the character.

He is way way to expensive. Now yes he does have some insane options but an epistolary termi w/ SS has a better armor and invul. The invul can be huge since on a perils you have to make the invul twice. Plus null zone and either avenger or smite is normally all you need.

Ailaros wrote:
- Why would you ever take honor guard? Expensive unit with no invul save and only I4 (not to mention getting drawn in against ICs) means that you're not going to be able to stand up to a big bag of real close combat squads. It's especially curious when you compare them to the command squad, which has the ability to mix it up with a couple of storm shields and a couple of lightning claws or combi-weapons, and a thunder hammer to make a mixed squad that's actually good at a variety of things for the same price. It struck me that the relative crappiness of the honor guard would actually prevent me from taking a chapter master, unless I was just going to take one alone.

You choose where they assault. Obviously you don't go for the enemy HQ. By trucking them around you can assault what you want. basically I get relic blades and leave the rest alone. Now they are still very expensive but I run them for fun anyway. I would definetly take them over a command squad though. The banner alone is nasty. Even then you just run a small squad.

-Drop pods give you mobility in the turn you arrive, but zero mobility after that. They have their uses, but since endgame mobility is more important in 5th edition, most people who use them find they don't produce wins as consistently as rhinos. Also as immobile, open-topped vehicles they are easy KPs for anything with meltabombs or a PF.

-Vulkan is the most commonly-taken chapter tactics character. With a melta-heavy army (especially those speeders and dreads) and at least one unit of TH/SS terminators (they can even kill fast vehicles in assault) he's worth it.

-Assault cannons are only str6 and short range. Everything that can take an assault cannon can instead take a lascannon and/or multimelta, so those two choices are just better, since marines have plenty of troop killing power everywhere else in the army.

-Since the release of GK, assault marines are nerfed since they can't effectively either shoot up GK basic units or effectively assault them (because of the power weapons). They were pretty good before the GK codex.

-Scout bikes cost about 100 points for a tiny sacrificial unit of 3 with the necessary gear, die to heavy bolters with their 4+ save, and compete with speeders for fast slots.

-Like Long Fangs, devs suffer from the fact that they can't move & shoot. Long fangs are so cheap that it hardly matters for them, but devs also don't have the aggressive close-in units that SW have to synergize with them.

-I've used Tigurius in 2500 point games, but without an invul save (unless he manages to get Force Dome off) he's just too vulnerable for the cost as a primary HQ, and too expensive for a secondary HQ. When you can get a TDA librarian with a storm shield for a little over half the cost, there's not much value there.

-You are reading honor guard correctly.

Drop Pods
I've played against some very good drop pod players, and they give a number of advantages.
* You can use an odd number of drop pods to ensure you get 2-3 on the first turn
* Your later turn drop pods can be used to objective contest-grab
* Drop pods don't worry about mishaps when they land on the table -- you can drop close as you like to the enemy
* Drop pods give infantry free cover
* AV 12 is much harder to crack than AV11 rhinos.
* Drop pods can block enemy movement as they have a very large footprint. They also can be used to block lines of fire
* C:SM drop pods have a capacity of 12 (opposed to SW, which have a capacity of 10)
What drop pods don't give is mobility. Once you place your squad down, that's where they are going to be having an area of influence for the rest of the game. If you drop poorly, you can easily lose the squad.

Combat Tactics and Calgar
This is a very undervalued ability. I've discussed combat tactics in the past. Calgar does not stand toe to toe with another 250 point character. Draigo or Abbadon will take his lunch money every day of the week. If you compare him to a 200 point character hes more in line.
That means your paying 50 points for the ability for your army to auto-pass any morale test -- a decent price IMHO for what that gives, especially in 2,000+ games. This is better than fearless.
* You can ignore pinning
* You can ignore psyker battle squads
* You never take fearless wounds when you lose assault -- even if you lose it by 8. You just pass the test.

Assault Cannons
Assault cannons are great. I've talked about how awesome they are for years now, and people always told me 'yea, but their 24" range'. I guess the number of GK players has shown that a 24" range can be enough. C:SM just don't have enough platforms to put the AC on. You have land raiders, dreads, and razorbacks. BA also have baal predators to put them on -- and if your going to use AC spam, thats how I would do it.

TAC Squads
I would not go with 6 TAC squads. While TAC squads are not horrible (they have a decent stat line compared to orks, for example) they fall short of every other MEQ codex since C:SM came out. SW, BA, and GK have better TAC squad options. The best thing about TAC squads is they are hard to shift at range with 3+ armor saves, but in assault they crumble.

Why would you ever take honor guard?
Because for 5 more points a model, you can take TH/SS termies. TH/SS termies will crush honor guard every day of the week -- and twice on sundays.

Tigurius is a BEAST
IMHO Tigurius' best ability is to manipulate reserve rolls. In large games, combined with Khan, you can have 75% of your army outflank on turn 2. That's very powerful, and intimidating. As mentioned, his biggest weakness if that he's extremely fragile.

Devastators
If your going with an all-foot army, I can see you wanting to emulate long fangs and pay more points to not have them be able to split fire and have them weaker in assault. The biggest advantage of devastators over long fangs is they can take bullet catchers for ablative wounds. Once long fangs start taking causalities, they are losing heavy weapons. Devastators can have up to 6 wounds done before they start losing offensive capability.

Most people (myself included) look to the predators, vindicators, or land raiders to help with armor saturation. For 15 more points than a full 10 man devastator squad, I can bring a LR redeemer. I can toss a MM and AC on that, and have an AV 14 out there that can move 12" and fire 1 weapon or 6" and fire both. Now that you see how awesome the AC is, do you see why I like the redeemer? I've fielded them empty before as a MM/AC platform and to give mobile cover for my other models.

What else?
Land speeder storm tactics are actually not half bad. This is a cheaper alternative than having a drop pod full of TAC squads to grab objectives.

You are broadly correct with everything. Combat tactics is really important.

tigurius is weak as everyone is saying, instant killed too easily, then too many points. He is a fun, tactical choice.

There are cooler things than tactical marines. tactical marines are not too bad, but you can bring more killy things to the table.

Scout bikers are criminally underused. Landspeeders are awesome and the bikers may not fit well if every list.

Everyone seems to agree on this thread

Here's a thought: Codex Grey Knights can get Assault Cannons with Psybolt Ammo on their Razorbacks and get 4 Heavy Str 7 Rending shots on a transport.

labmouse42 wrote:Combat Tactics and Calgar
This is a very undervalued ability. I've discussed combat tactics in the past. Calgar does not stand toe to toe with another 250 point character. Mephiston or Abbadon will take his lunch money every day of the week. If you compare him to a 200 point character hes more in line.
That means your paying 50 points for the ability for your army to auto-pass any morale test -- a decent price IMHO for what that gives, especially in 2,000+ games. This is better than fearless.
* You can ignore pinning
* You can ignore psyker battle squads
* You never take fearless wounds when you lose assault -- even if you lose it by 8. You just pass the test.

Regarding Calgar versus Mephiston, it's actually a much closer fight then you might expect. While vampire Jesus has a far better stat-line, he does not have an invulnerable save, which gives Calgar a slight edge in wound generation.

Mephiston:
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.67% chance to hit (increase to 88.89% with transfixing gaze),
S 6 vs T 4 = 83.33% chance to wound (increase to 97.22% with transfixing gaze),
Calgar has a 4+ invulnerable save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
Calgar is LD 10 = 41.67% chance to avoid transfixing gaze.
None of Mephiston's psychic powers are useful in this encounter, so he won't use any.

66.67% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 41.67% × 5 attacks = 0.58, plus
88.89% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 58.33% × 5 attacks = 1.26 equals ~1.84 unsaved wounds per turn.

Calgar has 4 wounds, so 4 ÷ 1.84 = 2.18 rounds for Mephiston to carve down Calgar.

Calgar:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
S 8 vs T 6 = 83.33% chance to wound (increase to 97.22% with Titanic Might), and
Mephiston has no invulnerable save = 100.00% chance to get through.

50.00% × 97.22% × 100.00% × 5 attacks = ~2.43 unsaved wounds per turn.

Mephiston has a mighty 5 wounds, so 5 ÷ 2.43 = 2.06 rounds for Calgar to punch Mephiston's face in.

Statistically speaking, Mephiston will stagger out of that fight in the top of round three with one wound left, but the margin for Calgar to finish the job in just two rounds is definitely present. I would argue that Calgar is right where he should be in a fist-fight at the 250-point character level. The fact you get all his other goodies as well is simply icing on the cake.

Moving on to other matters, I will echo everyone else in saying Tigurius is a trap. No invulnerable makes him incredibly easy to pick off, and the vast majority of his powers are PSAs or unusable in assault, which is where a smart opponent will put him as soon as possible. A terminator librarian with a storm shield (epistolary upgrade optional) is a much better choice.

Scout bikers can be interesting choices, but remember that like all scouts, they're only BS 3, which hurts their reliability enough that most people skip them in favor of BS 4 biker marines or speeders. They can be cheap locator beacon delivery systems, and cluster mines can occasionally maul an unsuspecting unit badly enough to make taking them worthwhile. Just as often, however, they fail to do anything at all, so most people won't bet the farm on that unit.

That's and excellent analysis of Mephiston vs Calgar. I will update the post to mention Draigo or Abbadon.
Is there a reason you also did not do a comparison with Abbadon?

@ drop pods - The reason I think I got so excited about them is that they're the same cost as a rhino, but I couldn't think of any situation where I'd rather have a rhino instead. A razorback, sure, but if you're not doing a gunline army, then I probably wouldn't bother.

Even without the ability to guarantee everybody showing up at the same time, it's hardly piecemeal. When you do force concentration with drop pods, it seems like you do force CONCENTRATION. Even if only half your army shows up, it's still going to have local superiority wherever it does show up at. Given that most everything else arrives the next turn, and, once again, you can pick the weakest spot to attack, this doesn't seem like much of a loss.

Really, the only thing a rhino can do is to put guys back in them and drive off, but I don't really see the benefit to this. On the one hand, is a rhino really going to survive long enough to bring a squad somewhere, wait for it to do damage, and then pick it back up, and then still drive somewhere? On an AV11 vehicle?

On the other hand, what's the point of being able to pick something up and go somewhere, if you've already just dropped there in the first place? The idea of late-game mobility doesn't make sense here, because if I already dropped on my opponent's objective(s), then I'm already where I need to be late game, it's just I got there much earlier.

It strikes me that the difference between drop pods and rhinos is that the former brings marines to where they need to be right away and lets them fight there all game with a free round of shooting without getting shot at. Rhinos seem like something that your opponent blows off the table with autocannons turn 1 and makes your space marines walk. If I wanted a foot horde SM list, I'd take a foot horde SM list, and wouldn't even bother with the rhinos.

@ assault cannons - these still seem to be the best upgrade here. Autocannons don't hold a candle because while they have a longer range (which isn't really SO much of a deal, as you can only mount assault cannons on units which can get places in a hurry), the extra shots makes it a credible anti-light infantry weapon and the rending+extra shots means it can handle heavier infantry and MCs, and the rending means it can handle heavier vehicles in a way that the autocannon never could. The lascannon is a more plausible alternative, but in that case I think I'd just keep the free multimelta on a dread, or whatever.

@ devastators - It really does seem mostly jealousy. Looking just within the codex, devastators seem to have a fine role at a reasonable price. I could care less what units space wolves get.

Interesting comment about the speeder, though. That and the idea of taking a land raider instead. More expensive for one fewer gun, but comes with an assault ramp. Hmm. I don't see what the preds are doing better than devs, though. It seems with the exception of speeders (who do it a little better, but at greater cost), there doesn't really seem to be an alternative.

For 115 points apiece, you can get 2x 5-man space marine squads with 2x multimeltas apiece (one with a signum). I can't think of another codex that can do anything even vaguely similar.

@ combat tactics. Yes, regular marines will fold in close combat to CC monsters, but with combat tactics, that's the POINT. The scary thing gets in CC, you fall back, and then you regroup and shoot it again (with the help of everything nearby). The #1 most awful thing for a close combat squad is to be stuck out in the open at the mercy of your opponent's guns - especially at short range. Combat tactics makes this happen.

Without combat tactics, SM are stuck in close combats that they would rather back up from and shoot. Stubborn marines against stubborn power blobs means a lot of dead marines. CT SM against stubborn blobs means that in any turn that they kill more than you do, you can just back up and unload on the blob (now very much likely not in cover) with bolters. See ya later blob.

I even really like melta weapons, but I'm not sure if it's worth it to take vulkan if it dooms all those pretty little melta and multimeltas to being stuck in close combat.

@ Tigurious - but the COMBOS! Big scary thing nearby? smite+might+null zone. A tank you need killed over there? gate+curse+vortex. Need to hold somewhere at all costs? avenger+dome+quickening. The most impressive thing is that it's a single model that could do ANYTHING. You're not stuck putting him into a single role. He seems like the paragon of violent flexibility.

It seems like the only thing he's missing is eternal warrior, which means that I suppose you'd have to be somewhat careful of what you throw him at (although with the ability to throw down WS5 I10 force weapon attacks with an invul save, I even question that), and obviously it's going to be rough against, say, grey knights, but still, it seems like people who have a good sense of imagination would get a lot out of this guy.

So, a couple of other things.

- People keep talking up speeders, but I don't get it. Yeah, you have the ability to deepstrike on something with a multimelta (or whatever), that's fine, but outside of this role it's just an AV10 vehicle. Doesn't seem durable enough to make much of an impact after its initial splash. You hardly ever see eldar players carrying around a bunch of vypers and sentinels in more serious guard lists are practically non-existant for this very reason.

- I did a double take on sicarius. I don't even care about his beefy close combattedness (though it seems rather beefy), he looks like a good buy for just his three special rules. Plus, he's somewhat beefy in close combat.

- on a similar note, no love for antaro? His guard equivalent (Pask) isn't really all that worth taking, but a land raider that can stone cold ignore shaken and stunned results seems pretty good. I guess he does have that obnoxious rule that makes him worth an extra kill point. Perhaps if he could get in another vehicle and try again he'd be worth it...

- What's the deal with shooty termies? On the one hand, I look at them and see for the a little more than price of 10-properly kitted tac marines in a drop pod, you get 5 termies. You lose half your bolter shots at close range, for the same durability against small arms, and you can't take a special weapon (but you can take either cyclone or assault cannon for heavy), and everyone gets a 5++, and everyone gets a power fist for free.

On the one hand, it seems like they're a harder, better armed, boiled-down version of a tac squad. On the other, it looks like they're just a boiled down tac squad - a non scoring troops choice in the elite slot. I've played against shooty termies before and was really unimpressed, but looking at their codex entry, I feel like I should be, at least somewhat. What am I missing?

labmouse42 wrote:That's and excellent analysis of Mephiston vs Calgar. I will update the post to mention Draigo or Abbadon.
Is there a reason you also did not do a comparison with Abbadon?

Abbadon's math gets a little bit fuzzy with his variable number of attacks, but let's give it a try:

Abbadon:
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.67% chance to hit,
S 8 vs. T4 = 83.33% chance to hit (increased to 97.22% with wargear),
Calgar has a 4+ invulnerable save = 50% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has +1d6 bonus attacks, but hits himself instead if he rolls a 1.

66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 0 attacks × 16.67% = 0.00, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 6 attacks × 16.67% = 0.32, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 7 attacks × 16.67% = 0.38, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 8 attacks × 16.67% = 0.43, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 9 attacks × 16.67% = 0.49, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.54 equals ~2.16 unsaved wounds per turn.

Abbadon thus requires 4 ÷ 2.16 = 1.85 rounds to flatten Calgar.

Calgar:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
S 8 vs T 5 = 83.33% chance to wound (increase to 97.22% with Titanic Might), and
Abbadon has a 4+ invulnerable save = 50.00% chance to get through.

50.00% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 5 attacks = ~1.22 unsaved wounds per turn.

In the 1.85 rounds Calgar has before Abbadon kills him, we can expect Abbadon to suffer 16.67% × 50.00% × 1.85 = 0.15 wounds from his own daemon weapon. Subtracting this from Abbadon's 4 wounds leaves us with it taking (4 - 0.15) ÷ 1.22 = 3.16 rounds for Calgar to KO Abbadon.

This fight's a lot more conclusive, as Abbadon will pretty much dominate Calgar handily. Given that Abbadon's also 25 points more expensive, this isn't totally surprising, although it also doesn't totally explain the lopsidedness of the beatdown Abbadon can hand out. The man's simply a beast in close combat.

Just for fun, I'll run Draigo against Calgar as well.


Draigo:
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.67% chance to hit,
S 5 vs. T4 = 66.67% chance to hit, and
Calgar has a 4+ invulnerable save = 50% chance to get through.

66.67% × 66.67% × 50.00% × 4 attacks = ~0.89 unsaved wounds per turn.

It will take Draigo 4 ÷ 0.89 = 4.50 rounds to skewer Calgar.

Calgar:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
S 8 vs T 5 = 83.33% chance to wound (increase to 97.22% with Titanic Might), and
Draigo has a 3+ invulnerable save = 33.33% chance to get through.

50.00% × 97.22% × 33.33% × 5 attacks = ~0.81 unsaved wounds per turn.

Calgar will therefore need 4 ÷ 0.81 = 4.94 rounds to punch out Draigo.

This matchup's also fairly close, only slightly less favorable than boxing with Mephiston. Based only on CC ability, I'd defiantly rate Calgar as close to Draigo, especially given the 25-point deficit Calgar faces.

So, a couple of things to note with this. Firstly, abbadon's demon weapon makes it very possible for calgar to win. There's a one in six chance that abbadon does absolutely no damage to calgar AND punches himself in the face. Really, you should do two sets of calculations, one for an average amount of damage assuming he doesn't roll a 1, and another for if he does. Doing it the way you did causes the effect of a rebelling demon to get averaged out over the rest of the attacks in a way that I think hides the truly catastrophic events surrounding abbadon's demon weapon failing.

Secondly, remember, calgar has combat tactics. When you run the simulations, what you've really got to do is to calculate how much damage the two do to each other and then (assuming that calgar loses), you have to take into account the fact that he can just back up and then blast away with his AP2 bolters before the fight begins again.

Plus, of course, the fact that abbadon doesn't give anything to his army while calgar does, but that's a different issue.

Excellent analysis, and a good read. This had me laugh out loud.

Given that Abbadon's also 25 points more expensive, this isn't totally surprising, although it also doesn't totally explain the lopsidedness of the beatdown Abbadon can hand out. The man's simply a beast in close combat.

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Ailaros wrote:Secondly, remember, calgar has combat tactics. When you run the simulations, what you've really got to do is to calculate how much damage the two do to each other and then (assuming that calgar loses), you have to take into account the fact that he can just back up and then blast away with his AP2 bolters before the fight begins again.

To get away he will need to choose to fail his morale test and win an init check to get away right, and on a tie he loses.

Isn't that he way combat tactics works?

sudojoe wrote:Drop pods are quite good I'd say. The fact that they are AV 12 also makes them kind of nice. The only problem is the reliability and reserve rolls might make for the other half the pods you have. ALso just 2 pods will not work that well since one guy in the enemy zone at turn one usually means a suicide run

Ironclads are also sometimes a bit underrated. The armor on that thing just means bad ass tar pit unit. Alot of things will have a hard time getting through that thing without rending or some sort of power fist.

Bikes have been put to good effect before. They can get pretty pricy which limits their numbers. Also losing that BS4 really hurts.

Combat tactics has some very interesting play mechanics and I agree it is under used. Most people tend to like the other options given. Frankly I think the BA benefit more from a chaplin than the vanilla marines. Rerolls to hit works better with lightning claws terminators I think. Calgar really is just too expensive I think. you almost always take the terminator upgrade so your HQ is like 265 points!. Most times I can pass morale already with Ld 9 so it's not worth that much. Getting run down in close combat just means no-retreat saves anyway so I don't see how it really helps free up enemy assault units for shooting next turn.

Tiberius is just too many points I think for his survivability. Just 2 wounds and no invulv save. 3 psy powers is also kind of overkill as you really risk killing yourself with perils. Not all of the powers are going to be worth it either. I've yet to find a good use for teleporting around and the shooting all have different ranges which make them kind of hard to use on the same target. Zone of banishment works very well though. Usually a regular librarian will get what you need.


Honor guard and command squad I kind of agree with you that I don't really ever see them used. The sternguard however is where I think the action is at. All those lovely bolters really make a nice combo.

Tig has an iron halo? (Or is it just the 5+ invuln power?)

Wanna know what's better than an Assault Cannon? An Assault Cannon with Psybolt Ammo.

labmouse42 wrote:Excellent analysis, and a good read. This had me laugh out loud.

Given that Abbadon's also 25 points more expensive, this isn't totally surprising, although it also doesn't totally explain the lopsidedness of the beatdown Abbadon can hand out. The man's simply a beast in close combat.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:Secondly, remember, calgar has combat tactics. When you run the simulations, what you've really got to do is to calculate how much damage the two do to each other and then (assuming that calgar loses), you have to take into account the fact that he can just back up and then blast away with his AP2 bolters before the fight begins again.

To get away he will need to choose to fail his morale test and win an init check to get away right, and on a tie he loses.

Isn't that he way combat tactics works?

And be back in combat because of ATSKNF with none the wiser? Not a huge loss, worth the risk. It's a power that is too infrequently used by Ultra marine players because they don't understand it's usefullness.

Calgar can give a beat down if used right.

labmouse42 wrote:To get away he will need to choose to fail his morale test and win an init check to get away right, and on a tie he loses.

Isn't that he way combat tactics works?

Yes, but both abbadon and draigo win in the end, which makes me think that it's rather likely that calgar will lose any one given round of close combat, which means that this event would trigger rather often.

And yeah, you're not guaranteed to get away, but you will some times, and when you don't the no retreat is going to be pinging against termie armor, so it's not the biggest risk.

Oh, and not to forget, when he DOES get away, not only is he blasting with Ap2 bolters, but he also gets +1A, because he will undoubtedly be charging right back in.

Yep, so long as he does not leave on his turn, he can assault right back in.

You have a point about the risk/reward. He probably will be losing the combat by 1 or 2 per round, so if he fails he does not have that many fearless saves to make. This is even more true if you spend the 15 points on terminator armor.

So, I guess it's not ALL that likely. You have to lose combat and lose it on your opponents turn and successfully break, but the odds of that happening are roughly on part with abbadon beating himself in the face. Not the most likely thing, but it has a big impact on any given particular battle when it does.

I mean, you could imagine a situation where calgar roflstomps abbadon this way. Calgar gets some free shooting, abbadon charges and beats calgar by once, calgar falls back, shoots, and charges back in while abbadon's blade slits his own throat. Perhaps only happens once in 30 engagements, but calgar can beat up abbadon while suffering as few as a single wound in return.

Add to this the also unlikely circumstance of abbadon being in close combat for two rounds and rolling two 1's, or the circumstance of abbadon rolling a 1 one and calgar doesn't break, or calgar breaking without abbadon rolling a one and now you've got something like vaguely roughly 1 in 6 or 1 in 8 battles that go shockingly and surprisingly poorly for abbadon, just through a conspiracy of several unlikely events all pooling together.


Oh, and I thought of another question. Why bother with combi-weapons on sternguard? Their special munitions means that they already have built in flamers and plasma guns. I guess I could see some combi-melta action, but even then, why bother give it to the whole squad? How many meltas do you really need? Why not just take a couple of regular meltaguns and not bother with the combi part?

Ailaros wrote:Oh, and I thought of another question. Why bother with combi-weapons on sternguard? Their special munitions means that they already have built in flamers and plasma guns. I guess I could see some combi-melta action, but even then, why bother give it to the whole squad? How many meltas do you really need? Why not just take a couple of regular meltaguns and not bother with the combi part?

The combi-weapons can give you a stronger version of their weapons when you need it without sacrificing the Special Ammunition by taking a special weapon.

Taking alot of combi-weapons gives you a better threat presence and allows you to tackle consecutive unit threats (like transport spam for combi-meltas), or be completely sinister against hordes (the Combi-Flamers would be fired simulatneously, so no rolling until all the Flamers have fired).

Combi-weapons give Sternguard alot of utility and use without sacrificing their Special Ammunition, which in turn saves you points from buying completely seperate units just to mule the meltas the Stern-Guard can use...

Ailaros wrote:@ drop pods - The reason I think I got so excited about them is that they're the same cost as a rhino, but I couldn't think of any situation where I'd rather have a rhino instead. A razorback, sure, but if you're not doing a gunline army, then I probably wouldn't bother.

Even without the ability to guarantee everybody showing up at the same time, it's hardly piecemeal. When you do force concentration with drop pods, it seems like you do force CONCENTRATION. Even if only half your army shows up, it's still going to have local superiority wherever it does show up at. Given that most everything else arrives the next turn, and, once again, you can pick the weakest spot to attack, this doesn't seem like much of a loss.

Really, the only thing a rhino can do is to put guys back in them and drive off, but I don't really see the benefit to this. On the one hand, is a rhino really going to survive long enough to bring a squad somewhere, wait for it to do damage, and then pick it back up, and then still drive somewhere? On an AV11 vehicle?

On the other hand, what's the point of being able to pick something up and go somewhere, if you've already just dropped there in the first place? The idea of late-game mobility doesn't make sense here, because if I already dropped on my opponent's objective(s), then I'm already where I need to be late game, it's just I got there much earlier.

It strikes me that the difference between drop pods and rhinos is that the former brings marines to where they need to be right away and lets them fight there all game with a free round of shooting without getting shot at. Rhinos seem like something that your opponent blows off the table with autocannons turn 1 and makes your space marines walk. If I wanted a foot horde SM list, I'd take a foot horde SM list, and wouldn't even bother with the rhinos.

In defense of the Rhino, it's worth noting that the Drop Pod comes pre-immobilized, which makes it a very easy kill point even against something S 6 that can only glance it. It also tends to get involved in a multi-assault with its contents immediately after landing if CC units are anywhere in the area. Additionally, the Rhino can always be used to tank shock or contest objectives if it lives long enough, something which the drop pod often can't do if it scatters off an objective and the marines inside couldn't get the job done themselves.

Ailaros wrote:@ combat tactics. Yes, regular marines will fold in close combat to CC monsters, but with combat tactics, that's the POINT. The scary thing gets in CC, you fall back, and then you regroup and shoot it again (with the help of everything nearby). The #1 most awful thing for a close combat squad is to be stuck out in the open at the mercy of your opponent's guns - especially at short range. Combat tactics makes this happen.

Without combat tactics, SM are stuck in close combats that they would rather back up from and shoot. Stubborn marines against stubborn power blobs means a lot of dead marines. CT SM against stubborn blobs means that in any turn that they kill more than you do, you can just back up and unload on the blob (now very much likely not in cover) with bolters. See ya later blob.

In all honesty, Tac squads have a nasty habit of folding in CC to almost anything. They're shockingly bad in combat, especially against any of the other power armor armies. It's also worth noting that ATSKNF only allows you to ignore the 50% casualties restriction when checking to regroup; a low fall back move coupled with a large enemy consolidation after using combat tactics to escape may well see that unit escorted off the table before it can regroup. CT and ATSKNF are great rules for a shooting army, but it's not Hit and Run, and shouldn't be treated as such.

Ailaros wrote:@ Tigurious - but the COMBOS! Big scary thing nearby? smite+might+null zone. A tank you need killed over there? gate+curse+vortex. Need to hold somewhere at all costs? avenger+dome+quickening. The most impressive thing is that it's a single model that could do ANYTHING. You're not stuck putting him into a single role. He seems like the paragon of violent flexibility.

It seems like the only thing he's missing is eternal warrior, which means that I suppose you'd have to be somewhat careful of what you throw him at (although with the ability to throw down WS5 I10 force weapon attacks with an invul save, I even question that), and obviously it's going to be rough against, say, grey knights, but still, it seems like people who have a good sense of imagination would get a lot out of this guy.

Except most of his combos simply do not work. Gate/Curse/Vortex in particular doesn't work for two reasons; firstly that Vortex is Heavy 1 and effectively can never be used by a power armor Librarian (never mind the terrible things that happen on a failed psychic test), and secondly because both powers are PSAs, of which you may only use one per turn. Null Zone, Might of Ancients, and Quickening all sound like great powers, but all can explicitly only be used in your player turn, leaving you crippled and vulnerable in your opponents assault phase if you can't break the unit in yours.

Ailaros wrote:I did a double take on sicarius. I don't even care about his beefy close combattedness (though it seems rather beefy), he looks like a good buy for just his three special rules. Plus, he's somewhat beefy in close combat.

It is worth pointing out that Rites of Battle does not replace or require Combat Tactics, making Sicarius an excellent second HQ unit for any army which takes one of the other special characters.

Ailaros wrote:on a similar note, no love for antaro? His guard equivalent (Pask) isn't really all that worth taking, but a land raider that can stone cold ignore shaken and stunned results seems pretty good. I guess he does have that obnoxious rule that makes him worth an extra kill point. Perhaps if he could get in another vehicle and try again he'd be worth it...

Personally, I like Chronus, but the price tag is a bit steep, even accounting for the points you save in not having to buy extra armor. He's probably best in a dakka or auto/las Predator, since most Land Raiders have twin-linked weapons that don't benefit as much from BS 5, although competing schools of thought will maintain that you can simply buy a second tank for the points you're spending on him. If he gets blown out of his vehicle he becomes an IC, so run him to the nearest squad and hide in it to save the KP, and/or use his servo-arm to threaten enemy vehicles and characters.

Ailaros wrote:What's the deal with shooty termies? On the one hand, I look at them and see for the a little more than price of 10-properly kitted tac marines in a drop pod, you get 5 termies. You lose half your bolter shots at close range, for the same durability against small arms, and you can't take a special weapon (but you can take either cyclone or assault cannon for heavy), and everyone gets a 5++, and everyone gets a power fist for free.

On the one hand, it seems like they're a harder, better armed, boiled-down version of a tac squad. On the other, it looks like they're just a boiled down tac squad - a non scoring troops choice in the elite slot. I've played against shooty termies before and was really unimpressed, but looking at their codex entry, I feel like I should be, at least somewhat. What am I missing?

Tactical Terminators really require Lysander to function. If you decide to go that route, get ten terminators with two cyclones and Lysander, then deep strike them all near something juicy and light it up. Use Lysander to soak up any threatening firepower that would hurt the other terminators, and make sure to pile him into combat if you get charged to encourage your opponent to over-allocate attacks to him or at least dish out some S 10 TH hits.

Ailaros wrote:

Really, the only thing a rhino can do is to put guys back in them and drive off, but I don't really see the benefit to this. On the one hand, is a rhino really going to survive long enough to bring a squad somewhere, wait for it to do damage, and then pick it back up, and then still drive somewhere? On an AV11 vehicle?

I think we've had this discussion before. Things like this statement still make me suspect that you're still not grasping how a mech army works.

Ailaros wrote:
- People keep talking up speeders, but I don't get it. Yeah, you have the ability to deepstrike on something with a multimelta (or whatever), that's fine, but outside of this role it's just an AV10 vehicle. Doesn't seem durable enough to make much of an impact after its initial splash. You hardly ever see eldar players carrying around a bunch of vypers and sentinels in more serious guard lists are practically non-existant for this very reason.

Deepstriking speeders is almost never a good idea, but if you do, then that's where Vulkan is worth his points (and the tradeoff with combat tactics).

But the most valuable speeder is actually the typhoon/HB. For a little more than the cost of your 5 devs with 4 MLs, you can get two typhoons that can move 12" and shoot the same number of missiles as the dev unit, can get cover sitting behind a rhino while still shooting, and can also move 12" and throw out 4 frag blasts and 6 HB shots, all at standoff ranges. I hardly ever see a competitive space marine army without at least a few typhoons, and some armies build their firebase around it.

Multiple squadrons of AV 10 vehicles are a pain to shoot down completely, especially when they can stand off at 36" or 48" so that you need big guns to harm them. My typhoon squadrons may get dented, but they hardly ever give up a KP during the course of a game.

Actually even if Calgar manages to CT out, he has to fall back by 6" more than the pursuer consolidates in order to auto-rally in his next turn. In the vacuum the combat is taking place the risk-reward is kinda messed since on the table top you will normally have supporting units facilitating the tactical withdrawal when you use it.


@ OP: Drop pods are good, but its an all or none type strategy. Given you lack of appreciation for transports in general, I can understand why you like them better than the rhino. If you do make an SM army, I'm sure you'd love the Drop Pod Assault types. Keep in mind that you get half rounded up at the start of your first turn, and the rest come in as normal from reserves (4+ turn 2 etc).

-I agree about combat tactics. The rule is awesome, and IMO allows for greater depth of tactics used on the field. It does have some downsides and requires correct positioning of support units, but when you get your units working together its beautiful.

-Assault cannons are one of my favourite SM weapons. My razorbacks use the TL assault cannon to great success. On a drop pod dread the MM/HF option seems better as the damage is much greater at the ranges you can put it. I think razorbacks are the best platform for the assault cannon.

-The problem with all slogging armies is their comparable lack of damage output - especially at range. That being said, I'm sure that you could do at least reasonably well with a Company-style list.

-Scout bikes are BS3 IIRC, which is the biggest problem with scouts. Still, they look alright to me if you got a list that needs the role they offer. I've never personally used them as I haven't found a place they fit in the build I run.

-I use lots of vehicles, so I like predators with AC/Las better. for 120 points, you get 2 S7 and 2 S9 shots. Devs are 30 more points to make them all S8 with the blast option. They take damage differently, and the AV just works better for me. In a slogging list, I'd choose the devs tho.

-Tigurius seems good, but I'm pretty cheap when it comes to spending points in the army. His price tag is just to much for me considering he has no invuln. I use a libby with SS to go with my assault terminators, but there is no reason Tigurius couldn't find a build he works in.

-Honour guard suck as Assault terminators are better than them in every way. Command squads that try to be a CC unit suffer from the same problem, but they offer a unique option for a shooting unit -say 4x plasmaguns + apoth seems like the best setup to me.

SM are a great army, and fun to play. The codex is not brimming with power, but seems to allow a huge variety of armies that can be effective given a good list builder and solid play.

As Flavious said, Typhoons operate in the optimal range for AV10 vehicles.

AV10 seems almost wasteful to shoot dedicated anti-tank weapons at(the weapons that have the range to touch them in the 36-48" zone) because weaker weapons can also take them out. This creates a tactical connundrum.

Typhoons also arn't as obvious a threat as a MM/HF speeder(which is massive) which operates within the range that HB and equivalents can drop them.


Typhoons are also cheap enough that you can afford other threats to distract from them.

2500 point game. 9 typhoon speeders is 810 points. You still have enough points for Assault Terminators in a Raider, a couple Autocannon dreds/Sternguard, Tactical squads in transports, and a solid HQ.


Lets say the list is as follows.

Libby(TDA, SS)

Tac squad(meltagun, combi-melta, PF, lascannon)
Rhino

Tac squad(flamer, combi-flamer, PW, lascannon)
Rhino

5 Assault Terminators
Landraider(multi-melta)

Dreadnought(TL-lascannon, missile launcher)

Dreadnought(TL-lascannon, missile launcher)

3 Typhoons

3 Typhoons

3 Typhoons

Predator(Autocannon, HB sponsons)

Predator(Autocannon, HB sponsons)

Predator(Autocannon, HB sponsons)

2440 pts


Target priority for my opponent may not be the speeders in this situation, especially not with his Missiles and Lascannons(or equivilant)

He will probably be more worried about the Landraider and 3 Predators.


And the list itself is pretty scary. its got 2 lascannons, 3 TL-lascannons, 3 autocannons, 20 missiles, 15 heavy bolters, and 1 TL-heavy bolter.

And its got 60 points of wiggle room for improvements. Could change the Rhinos into Razorbacks or something.

Ailaros wrote:So, a couple of things to note with this. Firstly, abbadon's demon weapon makes it very possible for calgar to win. There's a one in six chance that abbadon does absolutely no damage to calgar AND punches himself in the face. Really, you should do two sets of calculations, one for an average amount of damage assuming he doesn't roll a 1, and another for if he does. Doing it the way you did causes the effect of a rebelling demon to get averaged out over the rest of the attacks in a way that I think hides the truly catastrophic events surrounding abbadon's demon weapon failing.

Secondly, remember, calgar has combat tactics. When you run the simulations, what you've really got to do is to calculate how much damage the two do to each other and then (assuming that calgar loses), you have to take into account the fact that he can just back up and then blast away with his AP2 bolters before the fight begins again.

Plus, of course, the fact that abbadon doesn't give anything to his army while calgar does, but that's a different issue.

The problem with statistical analysis of small samples sizes is one of variance. Unfortunately, there's no way around it. Abbadon is exactly as likely to roll a one and get punched out in one turn as he is to roll a six and wipe out Calgar immediately. No die roll in any case can be treated as any more important than any other die roll, so you'd have to case out every single roll in the entire combat, which would be in the order of several billion outcomes. You could write a Finite-State Machine to simulate the fight a few million times, but I suspect you'd eventually come back to something close to the statistical solution above.

As far as (ab)using Combat Tactics, keep in mind Abbadon does has a higher initiative than Calgar, and may well catch him before he escapes. Also note that there is no point in trying to break during your own Assault phase, as that simply gets you shot up and charged again. Given that, in the average scenario above Calgar dies in the top of round two before he ever get a chance to flee. Moral of the story: Avoid CC with Abbadon. Shoot him in the face instead until the twitching stops.

Creeperman wrote: Shoot him in the face instead until the twitching stops.

Wow good job sir. I spit out my coffee when I read this line.

I actually run 4 scout bikers in my SM list, a PF and locator beacon brings them to 140pts (same as the 2 MM/HF speeders in my list). If I get first turn I infiltrate them, turbo-boost up to my opponent using their scout move, first turn my librarian and 6 assault terminators gate up to the bikers, the bikers then move off and trash a transport or 2, or tie up some long fangs or another of a whole variety of disruption tactics.

Being able to get a first turn assault is amazing, and the WS3 is balanced out by the T4(5) which means I can quite happily throw them at long fangs and they will probably hold (or win). People who haven't played against them don't realise what a pain they can be. That said they are very fragile though.

Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Also in defence of honour guard you don't throw them at TH/SS terminators you keep them cheap and cheerful. I have a friend who runs them with Pedro to great success. Hides them in rhino and late game they come out and pick on marines. They have 3 PW attacks basic and the champion (WS5, 3 attacks) can take a TH or Relic Blade, and gets to re-roll all hits and wounds against enemy ICs. That's pretty good for 130pts and doesn't take up an FOC.

ps. with the Abbadon vs. Calgar thing, Calgar gets to choose wether to pass or fail and Abbadon in terminator armour can't sweeping advance (i.e. cause fearless saves) anyways.

Creeperman wrote:In all honesty, Tac squads have a nasty habit of folding in CC to almost anything. CT and ATSKNF are great rules for a shooting army, but it's not Hit and Run, and shouldn't be treated as such.

This doesn't seem fair. Yeah, tac squads will fold to dedicated close combat squads on said other squads' terms, but to say it's just universally bad against everything is untrue, especially if you take into account that they're likely going to get to shoot bolters and/or bolt pistols first. In a straight up fight, I'd take the tac marines over non-blob guard, guardians, warriors (from either codex), and even boyz. They've still got a great statline, and they have the "not-hit-and-run" for everything else.

That combo might not be literally hit and run, but it's pretty close. Your opponents are only consolidating D6, and you're falling back 2D6, which means you stand a pretty decent chance of getting outside of the 6" doom bubble, and if you're supporting things properly, even if you don't it shouldn't matter (as those space marines can still shoot boltguns etc. while continuing to retreat, making them basically as effective as if they'd rallied).

Flavius Infernus wrote:Things like this statement still make me suspect that you're still not grasping how a mech army works.
Multiple squadrons of AV 10 vehicles are a pain to shoot down completely

Grey Templar wrote:AV10 seems almost wasteful to shoot dedicated anti-tank weapons at

It seems like the only way to really appreciate the abilities of speeders is to grossly overestimate what AV10 is capable of withstanding. Same for rhinos. If guard players are growing concerned over the lack of staying power of AV12 in a leafblower list, I can't see how lighter vehicles would be anything but much worse.

I've played enough games against dark eldar that devolved into a turkey shoot (even with flickerfields) to place too much trust in the staying power of a couple of light vehicles. An all razorspam army with some speeders, perhaps, but taking a handful of them seems like a great way to throw away points into enemy autocannon fire, etc.

Dracos wrote:Drop pods are good, but its an all or none type strategy.

You know, I don't see why this need be. Why can't a razorspam army also throw a couple of dreads in drop pods and give your opponent a great deal to think about turn 1.

Dracos wrote:The problem with all slogging armies is their comparable lack of damage output - especially at range.

Yeah, I suppose you'd need to play it slightly differently. A tac quad has a lot of killing power mid-range, but they need to have ways of keeping opponents there. I suppose the field position offered by the foot horde would help against fast armies (especially if you had a couple of drop pods), and the CT-ATSKNF would be for guys who like to get too close for comfort. It would definitely be a different style, but it seems doable.

Dracos wrote: I like predators with AC/Las better. for 120 points, you get 2 S7 and 2 S9 shots. Devs are 30 more points to make them all S8 with the blast option.

Hmm, that's an interesting way of thinking about it, actually.

Dracos wrote: Command squads that try to be a CC unit suffer from the same problem, but they offer a unique option for a shooting unit -say 4x plasmaguns + apoth seems like the best setup to me.

Yeah, it's the apothecary and the ability to take SOME storm shields without requiring them to ALL take storm shields, combined with the ability to take THs, SSs and still take shooty stuff in the squad that makes them seem worthwhile in comparison.

CaptainJay wrote:Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Well, it's 48" and 36" when you add in the bike's movement. Plus, outflanking means side and rear shots and you can always charge in with a power fist. right after. Seems nifty, even without also using the scout's ability to bring stuff in via teleporting.

Perhaps not the best unit in the world in all builds, but I'm still kind of surprised that I've basically never seen them before, especially since they seem generally better than regular SM bikes.