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Is the LRC pre-heresy? Base your decision on this passage from the BT codex: "Faced with such formidable defenses, it was not until the discovery of ancient techno-arcana in the long-forgotten depths of a captured hive that the tide of the battle was to turn. Amidst the tattered scrolls and flickering holo-schematics, Marine Artificer Simagus discovered the means to develop one of the most feared battle tanks in the Imperium, the Land Raider Crusader." BT Codex Page 43

huh?

The LRC was a BT vehicle and the BT are the successors of the Imperial Fists Space Marine Legion...so how should this vehicle be
pre-heresy?

The common acceptance of the LRC's abilities made it a irrefutable addtion to the astartes arsenal as too many chapters liked to have one, too. Sure the old limit of 0-1 is no more.
And why is your quote missing the date of the mechanicums sanctioning of the LRC? ( 763.M39 ).
Plus the date of the crusade ( Jerulas 645.M39 ) where this design was fielded the first time. ( also page 43 ....)

Did you even read the OP? Its a BT vehicle they developed from ancient schematics they found, Helbrecht didn't just crap it out one day

I've always been of the idea that although schematics might have existed, that no working prototype had ever been deceloped because the original land raider pattern was so effective.

I was just wondering because I'm using Deathwing to represent a SoH Justaerian army and being able to use the LRC would be great

TheAngrySquig wrote:Did you even read the OP? Its a BT vehicle they developed from ancient schematics they found, Helbrecht didn't just crap it out one day

Sure.
Any Land Raider variant isn't new, but the "crusader" is a BT term and we don't know of the scheme the BT used. Its possible it wasn't complete or just enough scraps to fit a different weapon loadout on a Land Raider. So no, you can't say the LR "crusader" is PH because all we know is that the general design of the Land Raider has changed ( Mk1 , Mk 2 etc ) and the actual "crusader" is based on the most current design of Land Raiders.

1hadhq wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Did you even read the OP? Its a BT vehicle they developed from ancient schematics they found, Helbrecht didn't just crap it out one day

Sure.
Any Land Raider variant isn't new, but the "crusader" is a BT term and we don't know of the scheme the BT used. Its possible it wasn't complete or just enough scraps to fit a different weapon loadout on a Land Raider. So no, you can't say the LR "crusader" is PH because all we know is that the general design of the Land Raider has changed ( Mk1 , Mk 2 etc ) and the actual "crusader" is based on the most current design of Land Raiders.

Black Templars Codex wrote:Amidst the tattered scrolls and flickering holo-schematics, Marine Artificer Simagus discovered the means to develop one of the most feared battle tanks in the Imperium, the Land Raider Crusader.

I think from this you can get that it was an old design

TheAngrySquig wrote:Did you even read the OP? Its a BT vehicle they developed from ancient schematics they found, Helbrecht didn't just crap it out one day

You're partially correct.

Quoting Imperial Armour II: Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition here as my Black Templars codex is nowhere to be found.

Service Record

The Land Raider 'Crusader' variant was first developed and deployed by the Black Templars Chapter, in 304.M39, and as such is a recent addition to the 'canon' of Land Raider variants. The Jerulas Crusade involved many sieges of hive cities and the Black Templars invariably led the final assaults when the bombardment lifted. To aid their assault troops the Chapter's Techmarines mounted 'hurricane' pattern bolters in each sponson and twin-linked assault cannons on the hull. It was an instant success and as news of the Black Templar's magnificent victories on Jerulas spread, other Chapters requested information regarded their remodelling of the Land Raider. To this day, the Black Templars still make wider use of the Crusader than any other Chapter.

As the word spread a delegation of Tech-Magus from Mars arrived to see the High Marshal, wishing to investigate the Black Templars' work. In 763.M39, after long debate and testing the 'Crusader' pattern was given 'Chapter Approved' status by the Adeptus Mechanicus, and officially recognized. Of course, many Chapters had already been producing this variant for several hundred years.

Nothing about "ancient schematics" or "recovered archaeotech".

Kanluwen wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Did you even read the OP? Its a BT vehicle they developed from ancient schematics they found, Helbrecht didn't just crap it out one day

You're partially correct.

Quoting Imperial Armour II: Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition here as my Black Templars codex is nowhere to be found.

Service Record

The Land Raider 'Crusader' variant was first developed and deployed by the Black Templars Chapter, in 304.M39, and as such is a recent addition to the 'canon' of Land Raider variants. The Jerulas Crusade involved many sieges of hive cities and the Black Templars invariably led the final assaults when the bombardment lifted. To aid their assault troops the Chapter's Techmarines mounted 'hurricane' pattern bolters in each sponson and twin-linked assault cannons on the hull. It was an instant success and as news of the Black Templar's magnificent victories on Jerulas spread, other Chapters requested information regarded their remodelling of the Land Raider. To this day, the Black Templars still make wider use of the Crusader than any other Chapter.

As the word spread a delegation of Tech-Magus from Mars arrived to see the High Marshal, wishing to investigate the Black Templars' work. In 763.M39, after long debate and testing the 'Crusader' pattern was given 'Chapter Approved' status by the Adeptus Mechanicus, and officially recognized. Of course, many Chapters had already been producing this variant for several hundred years.

Nothing about "ancient schematics" or "recovered archaeotech".

It seems IA and BT dex are having a disagreement.

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Black Templars Codex wrote:Amidst the tattered scrolls and flickering holo-schematics, Marine Artificer Simagus discovered the means to develop one of the most feared battle tanks in the Imperium, the Land Raider Crusader.

Agreed its an old design, pre-imperial to be specific. All of its schemes were known to man, once. But then, some of them got lost in time and all the imperium had to go from, when constructing Land Raiders , were the schemes found by Arkhan Land. ( Old GW fluff from its release as plastic kit. ) So my point still is:
the schemes existed somewhere, just not in the possession of the imperium and the BT found the missing schemes to build another at this date unknown variant.
So in-game and in-fluff, the variant didn't exist anymore before the B'T found the means to re-introduce it. ( Assuming you asked for the LRC as a vehicle of the Imperium that is )

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Did you even read the OP? Its a BT vehicle they developed from ancient schematics they found, Helbrecht didn't just crap it out one day

You're partially correct.

Quoting Imperial Armour II: Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition here as my Black Templars codex is nowhere to be found.

Service Record

The Land Raider 'Crusader' variant was first developed and deployed by the Black Templars Chapter, in 304.M39, and as such is a recent addition to the 'canon' of Land Raider variants. The Jerulas Crusade involved many sieges of hive cities and the Black Templars invariably led the final assaults when the bombardment lifted. To aid their assault troops the Chapter's Techmarines mounted 'hurricane' pattern bolters in each sponson and twin-linked assault cannons on the hull. It was an instant success and as news of the Black Templar's magnificent victories on Jerulas spread, other Chapters requested information regarded their remodelling of the Land Raider. To this day, the Black Templars still make wider use of the Crusader than any other Chapter.

As the word spread a delegation of Tech-Magus from Mars arrived to see the High Marshal, wishing to investigate the Black Templars' work. In 763.M39, after long debate and testing the 'Crusader' pattern was given 'Chapter Approved' status by the Adeptus Mechanicus, and officially recognized. Of course, many Chapters had already been producing this variant for several hundred years.

Nothing about "ancient schematics" or "recovered archaeotech".

It seems IA and BT dex are having a disagreement.

More likely, it's that the author of the BT codex had to make up something to flesh out the creation of the Land Raider Crusader out a bit more.

You'll notice that the part I put up there was intentionally vague on specifics.

I think another way of saying means to develop is instructions. Like in every IKEA box there are Sweedish means to develop the contents of the box

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think another way of saying means to develop is instructions. Like in every IKEA box there are Sweedish means to develop the contents of the box

Not necessarily.

The way it's worded does suggest that it's a previously existent design when you first read it; but when reading it a bit more...

It could very well be that he discovered the frag launchers or some other piece of tech which was incorporated within the design.

That's very possible, I can't find a date on when Frag Launchers were found. 645.M39 is the Crusader btw

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think another way of saying means to develop is instructions. Like in every IKEA box there are Sweedish means to develop the contents of the box

An IKEA LR wouldn't be a success...

I'd like to point towards index astartes 3, Land Raider:

- where the Land Raider is said to pre-date the Imperium at thousands of years.
- where arkhan land re-discovered the Land Raider at the librarium omnis at mars ( searching for STC )
- where the archeologists aren't sure when the first Land Raider was fielded, one guess is the beginning of the great crusade.
- where Land Raider weren't astartes exclusive....
- where Anvilus 9 was completly dedicated to produce Land Raiders ( pre heresy )

As this is GW and the LRC was created alongside codex armageddon/BT, the basic variant is available to everyone.
So if you want the common variant, it was there from the day the legiones astartes left terra.
But the crusader is a different loadout. The neccessary data may have been missing until the BT found them.
Remember, they mounted it on a Mk3. I doubt you'll find a Mk 1 or 2 in a "crusader" config because IMO the bit about ancient tech was meant to tell us they dug out more info to create another variant they could not before. Not because it wasn't possible, but with STC tech you have to assume the Imperium can build whatever they got complete sets of data for ( or successfully guessed good enough to make it work ). but won't build something new by adding to it. The LRC is a reclaimed set of data used again after those got nearly lost to man. In the period between having it ( pre-imperium ) and finding it again ( imperium post-heresy ) lies the reason for the traitors to miss out on this LRC.

The forces of man may had the knowlegde ( STC ) to add weapons to build a config like the LRC and the Imperium of man didn't
( pre M39 ). So : a) yes a LRC like config could be done before the ioM was founded but was 'lost' somehow b) it wasn't known after the Emperor sent his expedition fleets to the stars thus a "blind spot" most likely exists between M30 and M39.

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Black Templars Codex wrote:Amidst the tattered scrolls and flickering holo-schematics, Marine Artificer Simagus discovered the means to develop one of the most feared battle tanks in the Imperium, the Land Raider Crusader.

I think this shows us that it's possible not all the schematics were present, therefore the BTs had to improvise, and Bolters were the way forwards. "One of the most feared battle tanks in the Imperium" could refer to it from any time period in the Imperium's history or present. I'm basically agreeing with Kanluwen, but suggesting the BTs added to it in some way due to potentially missing schematics.

The BT templar codex is a complete retcon towards the whole "we just found some ancient schematics" route by GW lately. The "original" introduction of the Crusader(and the unique BT rules) was during the 3rd War for Armageddon codex (2000), and it is described as a land raider that the BT techmarines stripped the lascannons off of and thought up it's current loadout for the fighting in the close confines of the Hive.

Argh. It's the hurricane bolter that they found and wedged it onto the LR design. After that it was added to Ironclads and then finally, Stormravens.

Source please Lobukia. That's an interesting idea / find.

Lobukia wrote:Argh. It's the hurricane bolter that they found and wedged it onto the LR design. After that it was added to Ironclads and then finally, Stormravens.

Its not explicitly stated anywhere, however he may be right at we all know the land raider already existed and its not too hard a leap to think the plans they found was for the H bolter set.

I do like this idea i got to say makes sense.

As someone else stated though it is a retcon and the Crusader was previously created in the 3rd war for armageddon to fight in hades hive i believe, will drag out my armageddon book to check.

liquidjoshi wrote:Source please Lobukia. That's an interesting idea / find.

Oh sorry, no source... pure speculation. But I'll stand by it. The Hurricane bolter is featured only in the newest SM hardware, and what other innovation would you need to convert a LR into a LRC? I kind felt like the BT info implied it so heavily that they basically had said it. What else could it be? Especially since its then used on Ironclads and BA Stormravens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The BA Stormravens are said to be a newwer design than the GK... that's IMO why they feature the BT hurricane bolter and the GK don't.

Stormravens came before LRCs though

TheAngrySquig wrote:Stormravens came before LRCs though

Though not before BA Stormravens. LRC 39th M and BA SR are late 40th M IIRC

No, "official evidence" says M.40, but there are reports of it earlier

TheAngrySquig wrote:No, "official evidence" says M.40, but there are reports of it earlier

Even if it's 1000years earlier, my timeline still works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again. Just because they have the Stormravens (and I don't think the sources that they did have them earlier), doesn't mean it mounted hurricane bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And BTW the lore says M41, I was spotting the SR 1000 years just in case my memory was off.

Look in the BA codex

I dont know about LRC, but normal LR is pre-heresy afaik.

TheAngrySquig wrote:No, "official evidence" says M.40, but there are reports of it earlier

Because it didn't enter widespread service until then.

This is something people really need to understand. These various vehicles like the Stormraven, Land Raider Crusader, etc?

They can in fact be used on the battlefield hundreds if not thousands of years prior to them actually reaching a widespread manufacturing/distribution level. It can easily be explained as the Imperium(most particularly: the Astartes) finding some intact vehicles existing from ages past and opting to use them in combat because they need to use said vehicles at the time.

Intact vehicles--and the schematics to produce them--are huge bargaining chips when dealing with the Adeptus Mechanicus. The Baal Predator's STC is important enough that the Mechanicus were almost willing to go to war with the Blood Angels and their Successors over it.

Lobukia wrote:
The BA Stormravens are said to be a newwer design than the GK... that's IMO why they feature the BT hurricane bolter and the GK don't.

GK SRs can take Hurricane bolters.As far as I know, the only difference between the two is the missiles.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Lobukia wrote:
The BA Stormravens are said to be a newwer design than the GK... that's IMO why they feature the BT hurricane bolter and the GK don't.

GK SRs can take Hurricane bolters.As far as I know, the only difference between the two is the missiles.

The BA ravens are said to be available since M41 and the GK ones in service before ( codex BA ) so its a case of GK getting all the toys whilst other marines have to wait for the mechanicus sanctioning it before they can 'officially' field them.

The GK ones, however are in service for some time ( codex GK ) and without a given date we can't be sure when the StormRaven was re-introduced to human forces. With the official date on GK as a 'second founding' , and zero reports of GK activities in the heresy,
the existence of the hurricane-bolter as an option is nearly guaranteed a post-heresy one.