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I've read a lot of 40k material over the years and it still manages to surprise me every once in a while how "grim dark" the setting really is.

Most recently, I was paging through the DW corebook looking for information on the Tau. Now, I don't subscribe to this "Tau are the good guys" mentality that goes around but neither am I on some kick to prove that the Tau are actually the most evil of all the factions. I acknowledge that the Tau do practical things. Sterilizing subservient humans? They don't do it out of malice; they do it because it's necessary to keep their vassal races manageable. Is that "morally right" against IRL standards? Nope. But that's the point. They're aliens. They don't see things the way we do.

To me, the idea that humans would voluntarily submit to this alien perspective is truly horrific. Why? After all, life under the Tau does seem to be better than life under the Imperium -- at least in a material sense. But there's something better IMO about being oppressed by other members of your own species rather than by another species.

Anyway, the example I read about in the DW book is that gue'la dissidents "disappear" from Tau society. That's not disturbing in and of itself. It's just the sort of thing you'd expect. What kind of sicked me out is that the family members of that particular vanished gue'la are supposed to believe -- not just act like but literally to brainwash themselves -- that their vanished family member never existed in the first place. And this is said to be "the way of the Greater Good." That's just fethed up.

Again, I'm not saying the Imperium doesn't do similar things or that this makes the Tau worse than the Imperium. But it does show that the supposedly universal ideal of the Greater Good is actually a very alien concept. I don't think the Greater Good means the same thing to all races. But that's not how the Tau feel: the only true "Greater Good" is the Greater Good as envisioned by the Tau. It may be no problem for a given shas'la to forget that his dishonored comrade ever existed. Who knows how their alien brains process such things. But it's a lot trickier for a human to do that -- and if a human could do it, I for one would begin to doubt their humanity.

It is rather creepy. Not exact an alien idea. Still creepy though. Try picturing what they will do when they find out how to to change peoples memories.

It's also creepy because your having an alien entity judging from their own rules. That's just unfair, but it's also something that humans do a lot. Any time I want to make the tau evil, I play up the alien judgment aspect.

Well Ethereals are the masterminds and they want the Tau race to be the alpha dogs, while the conquered races are more or less tools. Not like the Ethereals would ever let that slip, however.

Manchu wrote:Anyway, the example I read about in the DW book is that gue'la dissidents "disappear" from Tau society. That's not disturbing in and of itself. It's just the sort of thing you'd expect. What kind of sicked me out is that the family members of that particular vanished gue'la are supposed to believe -- not just act like but literally to brainwash themselves -- that their vanished family member never existed in the first place. And this is said to be "the way of the Greater Good." That's just fethed up.

First of all, the example of this happening in real life:




And the popular work of fiction which is all about this:

In a way, it's both the most humane method that still maintains the Tau's interests. If you had a family member who was out rallying against the government, and one day you found out they either disappeared or were gunned down by government forces, wouldn't you be highly tempted to go out there and join the fight against the government as well? This leaves them with two options, they could either kill the whole family, which is quite a messy affair, or they could subtly affect the family to forget the missing relative. It's efficient, sterile, and morally reprehensible, but it's perfectly fitting with how I see the Tau way of life. They desire as little bloodshed as possible while still being the ones in control.

The perspective on the Greater Good from a human's perspective will always vary. For instance, the Tau go out of their way to make sure the humans who fight for them rarely, if ever, are paired against another human enemy. This keeps the humans from developing difficult feelings about having to kill their own species and possibly even turning back to the Imperium, not that the Imperium would take them back. You could say that this is an act of charity by the Tau in that they don't actively want to make the lives of the races that work with them difficult.

Sturmtruppen wrote:the example of this happening in real life:

I titled the thread after the book called "The Commissar Vanishes."


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jareddm wrote:You could say that this is an act of charity by the Tau in that they don't actively want to make the lives of the races that work with them difficult.

You could say that, but it would stretch the definition of "charity" to the point of tearing.

In James Cameron's movie Avatar, the Na'vi are basically humans with all or most of our bad traits taken out. I think there are some people who tend to see Tau as the Na'vi of 40k. This is especially tempting because the Tau seem to share our IRL attitude about technology whereas the humans of 40k have a much more conflicted attitude toward it. Real people admire the efficient mix of idealism and pragmatism that appears to define the Tau. The point of the gue'la vanishing, however, is that the Tau are truly aliens and not idealized humans wearing funny costumes. Like I said, some shas'la might have no problem whatsoever erasing the memory of a loved one from his heart once the loved one was disgraced. Human beings try to do this but can't really -- at least not the extent that they are actually human. The Tau expectation that humans should behave this way shows the true horror of their imperial ambition. They don't just want to conquer planets -- it's the inner universe of the subject races that they will also conquer.

Manchu wrote:

jareddm wrote:You could say that this is an act of charity by the Tau in that they don't actively want to make the lives of the races that work with them difficult.

You could say that, but it would stretch the definition of "charity" to the point of tearing.

I wasn't referring to the mind wiping families, I was referring to the fact that they don't use human soliders to fight other human factions.

I haven't had time to read DW thoroughly, but my first impression is that the so called Tau part of that sector is in truth led by humans or Gue'La. Always possible that human leaders keep their old traditions of leading through questionable means.

Maybe it also just follows the laws of a game where Tau are the enemies. So you have to place some plot hooks to give the heroes something to do ... other than destroy a peaceful society and kill their beloved creators.

jareddm wrote:I was referring to the fact that they don't use human soliders to fight other human factions.

Yeah, I understood. I don't think charity means "manipulating them so they aren't in a position to question our authority."

Kroothawk wrote:I haven't had time to read DW thoroughly, but my first impression is that the so called Tau part of that sector is in truth led by humans or Gue'La.

Nope. The capital of the sept is a world ringed by an equatorial city. All the Tau live there while the gue'la live in cities around the rest of the largely inhospitable planet. The Ethereals are in firm, direct control.

Another interesting aspect of the gue'la experience is a place on the sept capital that the humans call "the Lacuna." This is allegedly where any unruly gue'la vanish to. The revealing thing is that, according to the text, the Tau have no name for it. It says "they decline to name it." I thought that tied in pretty creepily with the brainwashing expectations. Humans always name things, no matter how horrible. Tau apparently do not.


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Kroothawk wrote:Maybe it also just follows the laws of a game where Tau are the enemies.

I don't think so. Again, it's not that the gue'la are presented as having it worse than your average Imperial subject. To the contrary, in some respects they might have it better. The point is that the Tau are aliens and not humans-by-any-other-forhead a la Klingons or Na'vi.

Kroothawk wrote:I haven't had time to read DW thoroughly, but my first impression is that the so called Tau part of that sector is in truth led by humans or Gue'La. Always possible that human leaders keep their old traditions of leading through questionable means.

It's human settled, but with Ethereals and Water Caste in charge.

The part that Manchu is referencing is actually a Water Caste diplomat responding to inquiries about someone who was abducted from their home at night by human security forces led by a Water Caste member.

Maybe it also just follows the laws of a game where Tau are the enemies. So you have to place some plot hooks to give the heroes something to do ... other than destroy a peaceful society and kill their beloved creators.

A peaceful society with an entire caste who nearly destroyed that society with their unchecked aggression.

Kroothawk wrote:I haven't had time to read DW thoroughly, but my first impression is that the so called Tau part of that sector is in truth led by humans or Gue'La. Always possible that human leaders keep their old traditions of leading through questionable means.

Maybe it also just follows the laws of a game where Tau are the enemies. So you have to place some plot hooks to give the heroes something to do ... other than destroy a peaceful society and kill their beloved creators.

It also bares repeating that DW tau aren't codex tau.

Kanluwen wrote:The part that Manchu is referencing is actually a Water Caste diplomat responding to inquiries about someone who was abducted from their home at night by human security forces led by a Water Caste member.

That's actually the heading for the section after the one I'm talking about and I think the "Water Caste" rep talking is himself a gue'la. The quotation goes something like "Ask not where you husband has gone. Rejoice because his absence benefits us all."


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nomotog wrote:It also bares repeating that DW tau aren't codex tau.

In what sense?

Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:It also bares repeating that DW tau aren't codex tau.

In what sense?

They are a kinda/sorta splinter group.

They're not Farsight levels of crazy, because there are Ethereals present, but the Shas'o in charge is a bit aggressive.

All other things being equal, Ethereals present = codex Tau

Same enough that can call them tau, but different enough to explain why they act differently then there previous portrayals.

The FFG Tau are decidedly more grimdark than those presented in the Codex, because most of the FFG books (excepting Black Crusade and its supplements) have a decidedly Imperial point of view, so that many of the Xeno factions are presented with a decidedly more-antagonistic slant than they might otherwise.

Even with this new addition, I'd still prefer to live under the Tau.

Still, I think the OP's point is to stress that the "Greater Good" is not a universal concept. The Greater Good is, in short, Tau culture. What works for them might not work on other races and civilizations, but the Tau seem blissfully oblivious to this.

I don't think they'd sweep dissidents under the rug to preserve a false image of order and perfection. I'd rather believe they do so with the blend of shame and arrogant ignorance of the colonial masters who fail to understand the ways of their conquered subjects.