Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In 5th edition ruins were area terrain, period.

There was a proviso that models on the ground floor of a ruin that wasn't on a physical base didn't count as being 'in' the area terrain if the unit was shot from behind.

However, if a unit was all up on the 2nd floor of a ruin (one with or without a base) they were most certainly in area terrain and got a 4+ save.


Taking a close look at the 6th edition rules has revealed a fairly sizable change to me, but its not one that I think most people will catch: Ruins are no longer area terrain. If the ruins is on a base, then that base (and only that base) is area terrain, but the ruins themselves are not area terrain. Meaning, if your models are up in the higher reaches of the building but the enemy is shooting them from behind (where the ruins don't actually cover 25% of the model) then these models are not getting any cover save!

Even more strange, the BASE of the ruin (and only the base) is area terrain which means it is a 5+ cover save, as opposed to the 4+ cover save you get if the model is actually physically obscured by the wall of the ruin.

And models that go to ground in area terrain get +2 to their cover save...which I'm unsure of whether this extra +1 for GTG applies if the model is getting a non-area terrain cover save from the ruin walls?


But basically what I'm reading is this:

If a model is on the ground floor of a ruin that has a base, if he's shot from the back of the ruin (where the ruin walls don't obscure him) then he's only getting a 5+ save for being in area terrain. However if the shot is coming from the front of the ruin (so he's obscured 25% by the ruin wall) then he's getting a 4+ cover save for being behind a ruin.

Now the question is, if the model goes to ground, does the +2 bonus still apply to the shot that comes through the front of the ruin? Or does the +2 GTG bonus ONLY apply if the model is taking the core 5+ save for being in area terrain?


Page 91 (area terrain) & pg 98 (ruins) are the relevant reading.

No the +2 does not apply to the shot coming through the ruin wall if the model is not in area terrain... it gets a +1 to the cover save per pg 18. Ruins are clearly now a type of Cover Save and Area Terrain is another type.

If you have a based Ruins the ground floor will gain Area Terrain if the shot does not pass through the Ruins. If the shot does pass through the 'based' Ruins then you have two types of Cover Saves to choose between.

If the model is in Area Terrain behind a Ruins wall it must choose one of the two types of cover saves available (lowest is best and they do not stack): Ruins +4 and +1 for going to ground or Area Terrain +5 and +2 for going to ground, both come out to a +3 cover save. (and if it is a SM it is all a wash any way +3 armor save)

A model can not claim two types of Cover Save; only one Save per model (pg19) but may select the best Save available.

Might be some hijinks to be played when placing terrain.

Place terrain in your oppponents deployment zone so that it is open to your firing and give him the lower save.

Brother Ramses wrote:Might be some hijinks to be played when placing terrain.

Or when building terrain!

Knock the bases off of those multi-story ruins denying the area terrain cover save on the ground floor!

Remember that you must describe the terrain to your enemy, and that if placing terrain equally, you should give him a chance to place it for you. Also remember that a unit cannot 'may' use the best save available - it MUST!

muzzlehead wrote:No the +2 does not apply to the shot coming through the ruin wall if the model is not in area terrain... it gets a +1 to the cover save per pg 18. Ruins are clearly now a type of Cover Save and Area Terrain is another type.

If you have a based Ruins the ground floor will gain Area Terrain if the shot does not pass through the Ruins. If the shot does pass through the 'based' Ruins then you have two types of Cover Saves to choose between.

If the model is in Area Terrain behind a Ruins wall it must choose one of the two types of cover saves available (lowest is best and they do not stack): Ruins +4 and +1 for going to ground or Area Terrain +5 and +2 for going to ground, both come out to a +3 cover save. (and if it is a SM it is all a wash any way +3 armor save)

A model can not claim two types of Cover Save; only one Save per model (pg19) but may select the best Save available.

No my premise was that the model IS in area terrain on the ground floor of a ruin (it has a base and he's on that base). The model then goes to ground, which gives him +2 to his cover save for being in area terrain, but now the shot comes through the FRONT of the ruin, where he is obscured 25% by the ruin wall...does he still get the +2 save combined with the 4+ provided by the ruins wall?


---


Or even more particular: The rules for wreckage/rubble (on pg 105) say that they are area terrain...but then the description goes on to say that models in cover BEHIND the wreckage/rubble gain a 4+ save. This is different from stuff like an 'impact crater' (also on pg 105) that says models in cover WITHIN the impact crater.

So the question is, with wreckage/rubble, if you are IN the area terrain are you getting a 5+ save for area terrain and only get the 4+ save if you are in cover BEHIND the debris? Or do you think this is trying to say that you're supposed to get a 4+ save even if you're in the wreckage/rubble?

And is that what the 'base' of a ruins is (wreckage/rubble)? So is the base of a ruins also supposed to provide a 4+ cover save besides being area terrain?

He is in area terrain, and GtG there gives you +2 to your cover save. It doesnt say " the cover save provided by the area terrain only", so i see no reason why you would not get a 2+ cover save (4+ , +2) in some circumstances.

I'd spotted this yesterday during the first game of mine, makes more sense as now a 4+ save is more difficult to get - you HAVE to be obscured 25% or more to have one while in ruins.

So those 11 wounds I got on those pathfinders yesterday which my enemy proceeded to save...shouldn't have had saves at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:He is in area terrain, and GtG there gives you +2 to your cover save. It doesnt say " the cover save provided by the area terrain only", so i see no reason why you would not get a 2+ cover save (4+ , +2) in some circumstances.

I'd spotted this yesterday during the first game of mine, makes more sense as now a 4+ save is more difficult to get - you HAVE to be obscured 25% or more to have one while in ruins.

Yeah, I think you're right (about getting the +2 cover save bonus even if you're pulling the 4+ save from something besides the area terrain you're in).

Of course, again they've made what cover save that the base on a ruins should provide quite questionable as rubble/debris is supposed to be a 4+...but again as I pointed out I'm still not entirely sure that save is supposed to be granted when you're IN the rubble area terrain. There is definitely potential to claim that this save is only utilized when the model is actually 25% obscured behind rubble (as opposed to just standing in the area terrain).

Yeah, thats how it reads to me.

If you're IN the area terrain, it is 5+ cover. Rubble provides a 4+ cover save, so if you are covered 25% while in the terrain you would get a 4+ cover save, or behind the terrain with someone shooting through it then you get a 4+

If played by the rules, "terrain density" will make for a crowded table in 6th edition. I think this nerf to multi-floord buildings assumes that there will be alot more terrain on the table. I like it.

The way I read it was that you would not get a cover save from an attack coming from the wall free side of the terrain unless you are on the ground floor of ruins with a base(area terrain for the base).

Area terrain does not say you get a cover save for being covered 25%. It gives you a save for being in it.

Hill tops say they are clear, but those hiding behind it get a 4+ cover save.

A forest terrain specifically states that models targeted through it would get the 5+ cover save, which is not stated in the "area terrain" rules.

Another fun one, is that they state that terrain may have multiple types. How much stacking is a question for me. A Forested hill makes sense, as does an overgrown ruin.

megatrons2nd wrote:The way I read it was that you would not get a cover save from an attack coming from the wall free side of the terrain unless you are on the ground floor of ruins with a base(area terrain for the base).

Area terrain does not say you get a cover save for being covered 25%. It gives you a save for being in it.

Hill tops say they are clear, but those hiding behind it get a 4+ cover save.

A forest terrain specifically states that models targeted through it would get the 5+ cover save, which is not stated in the "area terrain" rules.

Another fun one, is that they state that terrain may have multiple types. How much stacking is a question for me. A Forested hill makes sense, as does an overgrown ruin.

The rulebook just says that ruins provide a 4+ cover. Almost every other cover save other than area terrain says that you have to be behind them to grant it (Battlefield Debris). I'm not so sure that the conclusion that you have to be behind the walls of a ruin to get the save is accurate.

Well ruins arent area terrain, so you as per the cover save rules have to be covered 25% by the terrain. It doesnt HAVE to say you get it for being behind, because the main rules cover this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well ruins arent area terrain, so you as per the cover save rules have to be covered 25% by the terrain. It doesnt HAVE to say you get it for being behind, because the main rules cover this.

Fair enough