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So after taking a couple year break, I grabbed 6th edition and had a simple(hopefully) question: If a jump infantry or cav model with rending(Mark of the Wulfen Sky Claw, or a Thunder Wolf Cav member) charges, can their Hammer of Wrath attack rend? My gut says yes because both of the model types I listed did not gain rending from their weapons, but as a innate ability.

Thanks!

Yes.

The HoW attack is not a special weapon or wargear as listed in the MoW rule.

HoW attacks are S (user) AP -, not rending.

Did I interpret this wrong?

Yup. Seekers are awesome.

@loreweaver; HoW are S(User) AP - and do not use the S or AP modifiers of their wargear. Nothing is mentioned about other properties of the model making the attack, so we must assume they are still used.

chrisrawr wrote:Yup. Seekers are awesome.

@loreweaver; HoW are S(User) AP - and do not use the S or AP modifiers of their wargear. Nothing is mentioned about other properties of the model making the attack, so we must assume they are still used.

Can you point me to where it says this? The USR for HoW doesn't say, "Uses any special rules on the model." Just "Unmodified Strength" Init 10, AP-

Destroyer Lord with a Warscythe gets a single S5 AP- HoW hit.

Do "Seekers" specifically get rending for their HoW attack in their codex's FAQ?

Edit: It's quite clear actually, it's a hit "Resolved at Unmodified Strength AP-", so no special rules, no Rending, no anything, no Armourbane, etc...

It gets tricky because the rules do not say one way or the other if any properties aside from AP and S apply.

It does not ban the use of special rules. You already have permission to use your special rules, so they still apply except for:

The attack must be resolved at the model's unmodified Str. This means that you would not benefit from furious charge or the +2 from a warscythe, but you would get 2d6 from armourbane or the d3 from rending as these do not modify your Str, they modify your roll.

You would not benefit from the AP2 from rending or the AP1 from a warscythe as you are told that the attack is to be resolved at AP-.

The reason we would assume that they still get their rules from weapons or abilities is because it says they get one additional attack, but then goes on to the limitations, ie, unmodified strength and no AP, but it doesn't prohibit special abilities or rules, it is just like other attacks, but fast.

EDIT: ninja'd by maelstrom, exactly, you already have your permission to use your abilities and rules.

1) Is HoW an attack that grants a to-wound roll?
Yes. It's an attack resolved at I10 that hits automatically. It's resolved at the model's unmodified strength and at ap-, but does not have an attack profile of its own; the only things about this attack that change from the models' normal attacks are, explicitly, the S and the AP. It still uses the attackers' weapons and other special rules - it ONLY modifies the S and AP.

2) Rending, whether from a rule or from wargear, only cares about to-wound rolls. If you make a to-wound roll with this weapon, and it comes up as 6, that attacks' AP is modified to 2 (even if it was already 1), and automatically wounds. (Against vehicles, simply roll another d3.)

If the rules do not modify or replace the model's CCW or Special Rules in CC, then you must assume they are still being used. Since the only things modified, explicitly, are the S and AP-, you modify those ONLY.

Hammer of wrath is a weapon profile that give s: user and ap: -. Thus it would not include rending or the use of any weapons.

By using a weapon you get the special abilities of that weapon. If you use a power sword you get s: user ap: 3. The hammer of wrath gives you an I 10 attack with the profile: s: user ap: -.

So you would still get innate special rules of the model, not the weapon. So armourbane, Rending, etc.

You are given a detailed profile from the attack, and you are not allowed to use USR or weapons. There is no way I would allow someone to do this, and I reall think this is a case of people seeing what they want/hope instead of what is there.

Find where it says you CANNOT use the models special rules.

Not weapons, the special rules of the *model* Given it is defined as an additional Attack, you're going to strugge here.

Have a house rule against it if you want, but currently inate rending (etc) still works.

Permissive rule set, where does it say you can?

Lobukia wrote:Permissive rule set, where does it say you can?

Permission comes from the codex. Just a couple of examples from the Cron dex:

Phase Attacks: Close combat attacks made by Canoptek Wraiths have the Rending special rule.

Destroyer Lord Special Rules: Prefered Enemy (Everything!)

Now where does it say you cannot use special rules with HoW?

I think the flavor of the rule is that it's simply a S (user) AP - I 10attack. The model is just literally hitting the enemy as it charges into combat, not using any specific weapon or rule. I think of it as like when a vehicle explodes. The attack only sort of comes from model with HoW, just like the attacks only sort of come from the vehicle. It's one attack made at S (user) AP - I 10 . That's it.

Lobukia wrote:Permissive rule set, where does it say you can?

From the codex. HoW is an Attack. MotW means CC Attacks from that model are Rending. Permission grnted

Find where it is removed, with actual rule quotes

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Lobukia wrote:Permissive rule set, where does it say you can?

From the codex. HoW is an Attack. MotW means CC Attacks from that model are Rending. Permission grnted

Find where it is removed, with actual rule quotes

Forget rending, it means Monstrous Creatures HoW at AP 2, and Gargoyles get their poison.

Oh indeed, it makes HoW a little more interesting

No, Hammer of Wrath is a rule in itself.

(pg 37) Hammer of Wrath
"Many warriros hurl themselves headlong into combat, seeking to crush or trample the foe.

...it makes one additional Attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the models's unmodified S with an AP of -..."


That's it.

It doesn't say you get to whip out your claws, head butt, bite them with poison, whip with your tail or anything else.... It's a permission based game. You get exactly what it says. Nothing more.

Hammer of Wrath says, it's a additional attack at Init 10, base S... you only get it if you charge and make it to base to base. You don't even get an extra pile in step... it's a simple bonus for trampling the enemy.... see its fluff.

Don't try to make it something it's not...

Your weapons and special rules for your model will do what they are supposed to, in the appropriate Init step. For now, HoW says nothign about your bonus rules... it also says nothing about punchign your opponent in the face, but you don't get to do that either.

Permissive rule set.

Sorry,

It would depend on the exact wording of Mark of the Wulven. As far as AB states it says that it grants rending to any "weapon" that doesn't use special rules. HoW is not a weapon.

AB doesn't get 1 for 1 rules though so someone will need to confirm the dex.

Tactica wrote:No, Hammer of Wrath is a rule in itself.

(pg 37) Hammer of Wrath
"Many warriros hurl themselves headlong into combat, seeking to crush or trample the foe.

...it makes one additional Attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the models's unmodified S with an AP of -..."


That's it.

It doesn't say you get to whip out your claws, head butt, bite them with poison, whip with your tail or anything else.... It's a permission based game. You get exactly what it says. Nothing more.

Hammer of Wrath says, it's a additional attack at Init 10, base S... you only get it if you charge and make it to base to base. You don't even get an extra pile in step... it's a simple bonus for trampling the enemy.... see its fluff.

Don't try to make it something it's not...

Your weapons and special rules for your model will do what they are supposed to, in the appropriate Init step. For now, HoW says nothign about your bonus rules... it also says nothing about punchign your opponent in the face, but you don't get to do that either.

Permissive rule set.

Sorry,

The rules tells you what you can't do during the attack, it says unmodified strength, no AP, but if you got no bonuses or abilities, then why not say it? There is a permissive ruleset, it tells you when making attacks you get to use these special rules, the HoW is an additional attack with restrictions and it lists those restrictions. Why should it have to tell you again that you can use the units own abilities?

The Rending special rule says "For each To Wound Roll of a 6, the target automatically suffers a Wound, regardless of Toughness. These Wounds are resolved at AP 2."

So, someone would need to make the argument that when you are rolling to Wound after an HoW auto-hit, you're not actually rolling to Wound. Since you ARE rolling to Wound, Rending applies. So would Boneswords and Poison, since those effects are triggered on any Wound caused in close combat.

Once again is depends on the wording of the gear/abilities the model has.

Boneswords - These are weapons, not the HoW. therefor do not apply.

Poison - Would depend on the wording of toxin sacs. if it states "all attacks" then it would apply.

MoW - This depends on if it states it applies to a "weapon" inwhich case HoW doesn't use a weapon.

Toxin Sacs make close combat attacks Poisoned (X+).

BlueDagger wrote:Once again is depends on the wording of the gear/abilities the model has.

Boneswords - These are weapons, not the HoW. therefor do not apply.

I don't believe that's correct. HoW gives me one bonus Attack at I10. This is a CC Attack. The only stipulation is that it is at my unmodified strength and is AP-. While the Bonesword/Rending attack might be AP-, their effects are triggered by Wounds (or unsaved Wounds in the case of the Bonesword), not Attacks. And GW has ruled that all of my CC Attacks benefit from all of my wargear. If I have scything talons and rending claws, all my Attacks reroll 1s and all my Wounds Rend on a 6.

In order for Rending to not apply, the resolution of the auto-hit HoW attack would have to be something other than a Wound. Is it?

BlueDagger wrote:Poison - Would depend on the wording of toxin sacs. if it states "all attacks" then it would apply.

Again, it's not the wargear, it's the Poison special rule we must consult. The Poison special rule is triggered on Wounds, not Attacks. Am I resolving a Wound with HoW after auto-hitting, or am I not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As further strength for my argument, Smash specifically excludes HoW attacks. Rending and Poison do not. Boneswords do not.

I feel like this is RAW vs RAI. If any player tries to use any USR of SR in a HoW against me, it's going to come to a roll off, as I see this a blatant rule lawyering (that I think is also wrong when looking at RAW). That being said, I really think GW needs to keep the 'nids in mind and make a ruling that SA and USR not given by the weapon be used on HoW attacks.

Lobukia wrote:I feel like this is RAW vs RAI. If any player tries to use any USR of SR in a HoW against me, it's going to come to a roll off, as I see this a blatant rule lawyering (that I think is also wrong when looking at RAW). That being said, I really think GW needs to keep the 'nids in mind and make a ruling that SA and USR not given by the weapon be used on HoW attacks.

Rending says it takes effect on each To Wound roll of a 6.

Am I rolling To Wound when resolving a HoW Attack which automatically hit? Or am I rolling for something other than To Wound?

1) HoW is not a weapon attack. It has no weapon profile. It ALTERS your CURRENT attack profile to S(unmodified user) and AP-, and happens at I1. That is ALL that it does. It does not do anything else, at all.

It is still made with your special rules and your weapon special rules (i.e. a chainfist will still roll 2d6 to pen if it has that rule.) It does not alter what weapons you attack with. It is not a weapon by itself.

It is a modified attack. It is EXPLICIT in what it does. Your other special rules are EXPLICIT in what they do.

The ruleset is PERMISSIVE. if HoW DOES NOT specifically alter ANYTHING but the Ini step, S, and AP of your attack, then that is ALL it alters.

No, it allows (permits, also in the word permissive) a given S a give AP, and a given I. That is it.