Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Some are thinking that the Vectored thruster now give the HNR USR to units if the IC joins or is joined by another model or unit.

Problem is in the Wargear description that the wargear is described as special issue and is limited to( IC's without drones or to Single member teams"Monats".)

Question is, Does the Item description only affect who or which model can purchase it or does the wording actually limit the unit composition?"

Thanks for any help on this.

Only one model in the unit has to have hit and run for the unit to benefit. The item description only applies to who can purchase it.

Happyjew wrote:Only one model in the unit has to have hit and run for the unit to benefit. The item description only applies to who can purchase it.

Problem is that that is not what the entry says. It is wonderfully obtuse in its wording. As it is written it proscribes models with the wargear from joining other units.

If the IC doesnt have Drones, then they can have it.

They can then join a unit.

As they are still an IC with out drones, it doesnt stop them having it.

Not only is it wonderfully obtuse, it's not even a grammatically complete sentence!

But I vote that the new rules allow him to confer the benefit, but you have to buy him as a monat.

Its the IC and single man unit thing that leaves me to believe that they will eventually rule against it.

Then when we get a new codex they will let an entire team have them. Ya know, how GW likes to kick an army, while its down,m just before they get new goodness.

IMO, The Spirit of the rule and the way it is written says no. In this edition H&R is a skill. This skill the Tau have to buy a special piece of wargear to make their suits manoeuverable enough to perform Hit and run. Yet now, one peice of wargear magically upgrades all the other base model suits?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for this rule to go army wide but doing it like this seems "Wrong".

Jadenim wrote:Not only is it wonderfully obtuse, it's not even a grammatically complete sentence!

But I vote that the new rules allow him to confer the benefit, but you have to buy him as a monat.

I too, want the ability to be there for the whole team. I just can't bring myself to use the rule that way because of the wording. 40K is a permissive ruleset and I can't see were there is a rule that over-rides the last sentence in the rule.

I agree with what someone said in the Tau Tactica thread, "We may have to wait for an answer from GW."

Tau Players are assuming that they can use this wargear to give H&R to whole units. Problem is that we have a sterotype/reputation in the 40k community(An unearned one IMO) of being exploitive of the rules and that the younger players are poor sports.

I think it would be best if all Tau players held off on trying to apply this rule to whole units joined by the equipped IC, until there is word from GW or at least the Inat Faq team.

focusedfire wrote:Tau Players are assuming that they can use this wargear to give H&R to whole units. Problem is that we have a sterotype/reputation in the 40k community(An unearned one IMO) of being exploitive of the rules and that the younger players are poor sports.

I think it would be best if all Tau players held off on trying to apply this rule to whole units joined by the equipped IC, until there is word from GW or at least the Inat Faq team.

Yeah, because people don't use borderline potentially broken rules/units against Tau players...

I don't see any reason the thrusters don't give Hit and Run to the entire squad. Put it on an IC and don't buy him drones. H&R in the BRB is pretty specific about one model granting it to the entire unit. Also, if people are really going to throw a hissy over Init 2 H&R (that's, what, a 33% chance of success?), they need stop whining.

newbis wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Tau Players are assuming that they can use this wargear to give H&R to whole units. Problem is that we have a sterotype/reputation in the 40k community(An unearned one IMO) of being exploitive of the rules and that the younger players are poor sports.

I think it would be best if all Tau players held off on trying to apply this rule to whole units joined by the equipped IC, until there is word from GW or at least the Inat Faq team.

Yeah, because people don't use borderline potentially broken rules/units against Tau players...

I don't see any reason the thrusters don't give Hit and Run to the entire squad. Put it on an IC and don't buy him drones. H&R in the BRB is pretty specific about one model granting it to the entire unit. Also, if people are really going to throw a hissy over Init 2 H&R (that's, what, a 33% chance of success?), they need stop whining.

First, Its I4 H&R if the unit he Joins has any drones in it..

Second, The wording really hints that it won't.

Third, I find it best to wait for a faq on any rule that you have to go through this many steps to give it to a unit that normally wouldn't have it.

If it is approved, I hope that it is faqed for Battlesuits only. A peice of battlesuit wargear giving an infantry squad the ability to H&R is just to limburgery for my tastes.

I dunno about you, but I'm gonna take drones as casualties first if I get in CC. Assuming you survive the round at all, Init 3 from the IC is sorta good? If a drone survives? Great!

Please describe how the wording "hints" at anything. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Tau Codex: "The character benefits from the Hit and Run universal special rule...ICs and single-member teams w/o drones only."

So it is a legal equipment choice for an IC with no drones.

BRB Hit and Run: "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule that is locked in combat can choose to leave combat at the end of any Assault phase. If the unit wishes to do so, it must make an Initiative test."

No snark intended here, but I don't know how they could possibly be taken to mean anything else.

newbis wrote:Please describe how the wording "hints" at anything. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Tau Codex: "The character benefits from the Hit and Run universal special rule...ICs and single-member teams w/o drones only."
.

The rule describes who benefits from the H&R rule and then specifies that only IC's and single member teams without drones only. This would be a case of the codex trumping the BRB.

focusedfire wrote:

newbis wrote:Please describe how the wording "hints" at anything. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Tau Codex: "The character benefits from the Hit and Run universal special rule...ICs and single-member teams w/o drones only."
.

The rule describes who benefits from the H&R rule and then specifies that only IC's and single member teams without drones only. This would be a case of the codex trumping the BRB.

Read the entire post I just typed out again.

The IC benefits, so the unit benefits.

There is no codex trumping anything here. It works in exactly the same way as Slow & Purposeful, Stubborn, etc. I really can't spell it out any more clearly than that.

newbis wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

newbis wrote:Please describe how the wording "hints" at anything. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Tau Codex: "The character benefits from the Hit and Run universal special rule...ICs and single-member teams w/o drones only."
.

The rule describes who benefits from the H&R rule and then specifies that only IC's and single member teams without drones only. This would be a case of the codex trumping the BRB.

Read the entire post I just typed out again.

The IC benefits, so the unit benefits.

There is no codex trumping anything here. It works in exactly the same way as Slow & Purposeful, Stubborn, etc. I really can't spell it out any more clearly than that.

They would, except for the last word, "only". This limits the effect to the models listed.

So yes, codex trumps rule book.

"Only" is a limitation on what model can take it, not which models can benefit from it. Which models can benefit from it is covered in the BRB.

newbis wrote:"Only" is a limitation on what model can take it, not which models can benefit from it. Which models can benefit from it is covered in the BRB.

This is your assumption, not what the rules say. The entry says who can take it by virtue of the wargear section of the armoury it is in.

The limitations under its entry as written(Poorly written) create a defacto statement of limitation on which models may benefit from the effects of the wargear.

If the rule was better worded then no problem. But this is a 4th ed rule and there is no faq or explanation as to how for the limiting sentence is to be applied.

The entry as read, currently states that the benefits of the wargear onl applies to the models mentioned. Without the word "only" then no problem, with the word "only", then "only" character/ lone model"monat" benefits from its effects.

newbis wrote:"Only" is a limitation on what model can take it, not which models can benefit from it. Which models can benefit from it is covered in the BRB.

I having read the codex have to agree the word "only" indeed applies to the "only" units that can take the upgrade being single unit monats or IC. That being said the rulebook is 5th edition and the codex is 4th edition, had the codex been updated perhaps this discussion would not have happened. The rule says it can be conferred thus it can be.

I find it hard as well to take a very outdated 4th edition codex as more authoritative than the 6th edition BRB. Until its FAQ'd I think the updated rules confer it to the unit.

For context, the Tau Empire armies are still not a top tier army , even with the 6th edition boosts to shooting. I also don't think this thruster very over-powered either, it's only for one unit!

I run Necrons primarily and Nemesor grants hit and run to a unit every turn at No extra cost, its just what he brings to the table with tactics....

Spartan_Tau wrote:

newbis wrote:"Only" is a limitation on what model can take it, not which models can benefit from it. Which models can benefit from it is covered in the BRB.

I having read the codex have to agree the word "only" indeed applies to the "only" units that can take the upgrade being single unit monats or IC. That being said the rulebook is 5th edition and the codex is 4th edition, had the codex been updated perhaps this discussion would not have happened. The rule says it can be conferred thus it can be.

This rulebook if 6th ed.

The limitation in the rule is vague. I am not saying that it 100% creates a limit as to who can benefit from the wargear. I am saying there is enough ambiguity there to where we Tau players need to ask our opponents and our tournament organizers how they feel about it until there is a new faq or rulebook.

Ministry wrote:I find it hard as well to take a very outdated 4th edition codex as more authoritative than the 6th edition BRB. Until its FAQ'd I think the updated rules confer it to the unit.

For context, the Tau Empire armies are still not a top tier army , even with the 6th edition boosts to shooting. I also don't think this thruster very over-powered either, it's only for one unit!

I run Necrons primarily and Nemesor grants hit and run to a unit every turn at No extra cost, its just what he brings to the table with tactics....

The BRB makes no distinction for older codices when it comes to rulebook versus codex. If it has not been covered specifically in the BRB or a faq, the BRB says that codex trumps BRB.

There is no consideration for whether a codex is potentially weaker than others.

As to the its just one unit statement. Look at the units you could exploit. H&R Vespids, H&R Kroot and H&R Farsight.

Heck H&R Broadsides would be rediculous. Here, I'll just drone up a squad of 3 with plas rifles add a TL plas Commander or Farsight and then add an Iridium armour Shas'el with TL plas. Deploy them forward and just shove them down my opponents throat.
Would this work? Yes.
Is this the Tau style of fighting? No.

One unit can be a very big deal.