Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, if I'm reading this correctly, each model makes a 3" pile in move starting on its initiative step. The person whose turn it is moves first in cases where models have the same initiative.

Ok, so I take a assault marine sgt with a powerfist. It is unwieldy. The rule for unwieldy says it strikes at init step 1. But the sgts actual init is 4. Based on how I have read it, sounds like the sgt makes his pile-in move on init step 4 but doesn't actually get to swing til init step 1.

Is this correct?

He makes his pile in move at Initiative Step 1, since his initiative for the combat is 1.

Crazyterran wrote:He makes his pile in move at Initiative Step 1, since his initiative for the combat is 1.

But it only states he swings at init 1. It never says you pile in at the init you attack at, it says you pile in at your init.

Crazyterran wrote:He makes his pile in move at Initiative Step 1, since his initiative for the combat is 1.

Does he? Read Unwieldy. It says a model attacking with this weapon does so at init step 1 unless it is a monstrous creature or walker.

Key word being attacking. Init step pile-in moves are not attacking.

I think intention was for models to Pile In in same step they make their attacks.
Unfortunately that is not what the rules technically say, but it can be inferred from the "Models make their attacks when their Initiative Step is reached" and the "Unwieldy weapons strike at Initiative Step 1".

But this interpretation also raises other question:
At what Initiative Step does GK techmarine with power sword and Servo Harness (2x extra CC attack at I1) make Pile in. I4, I1 or both?

We need to keep in mind that pile-ins are totally different than they were in 5th. Now, each model piles in on their init step. The unwieldy rule says they attack at init step 1. Makes no mention of moving on init step 1. I think if the intent were they could only do anything in a close combat at init step 1 they would have worded it likewise in the special rule. Something like "A model with an unwieldy weapon may only make pile-in moves and attacks with this weapon at initiative step 1."

Since pile-in is different than attacking, if you go by RAW then you move on your model's init step for pile-in and swing based on restrictions of the weapon (if any)

Techmarine would pile in at I4, and get 2 extra attacks in the I1 phase, assuming he isn't dead.

Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

A I4 model with a PF is still I4, so Piles In at I4

But they attack at I1.

You do not get a second pile in at your attacks, as that is NOT your model's initiative.

Kiredor wrote:Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

A I4 model with a PF is still I4, so Piles In at I4

But they attack at I1.

You do not get a second pile in at your attacks, as that is NOT your model's initiative.

Exactly. You wouldn't pile-in again at init step 1 after you'd already piled in on init step 4 swinging with a power fist. If you were still considered engaged in the combat at your init step you'd get your swings, but that's it. No move until end of combat pile-in.

Kiredor wrote:Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

So Grey Knights with Halberds attack at I6, but do not pile in until I4?

It seems like an FAQ is in order.

Agree with DR. Piling in at the base init instead of the attack init works fine when the model's attack init is lower than its normal init. Doesn't work the other way.

Working or not, it's what the rules say.
Since it doesn't work, it'd be best to just attack and pile in at the same time until they FAQ it.

kmdl1066 wrote:Agree with DR. Piling in at the base init instead of the attack init works fine when the model's attack init is lower than its normal init. Doesn't work the other way.

Aye! FAQ it GW!

DeathReaper wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

So Grey Knights with Halberds attack at I6, but do not pile in until I4?

It seems like an FAQ is in order.

AWSOME arguement sir!

Gregor, DR is right, RAW, Halberds hit before they Pile In.

Have you guys played with it that way? I just want to know if it really is a problem or not?

Kiredor wrote:Gregor, DR is right, RAW, Halberds hit before they Pile In.

Have you guys played with it that way? I just want to know if it really is a problem or not?

Of course it would be an issue.

Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

A) If the enemy is hard enough to withstand my I10 blows and the front ranks fall then the rear guard will get the opportunity to strike back.

Method 2
Q) If I'm a power fist wielding sergeant why would I pile in at I4 and stand there getting thumped until it's my turn to strike back?

A) I don't, I understand I'm bogged down by my 'unwieldy' weapon and will wait my turn to crush the enemy.

oni wrote:Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

Banshees have I10 (not strike at, ARE ) in the first round of combat.

Q) If I'm a power fist wielding sergeant why would I pile in at I4 and stand there getting thumped until it's my turn to strike back?

It takes time to wind up the punch?

Well the rules for maximising base to base in the assault still stand, so there should be models in base, and the 2 inch rule for attacks is still there, so thats not a problem.

The likelyhood of models with halberds not being able to attack due to not having moved a whole 3' is very low, as I see it, and was looking to see if that stacked up in reality.

Alright. I offer something to thicken things a fair bit. Lash-Whips/Whip-Coils. The Whip Coils say "Whilst any enemy model is in base contact with a model with whip coils, they count their initiative value as 1, regardless of their actual initiative value."

So, Does the sequence go, Pile In at regular Initiative, now their initiative immediately drops to 1. Stand there for a while, then swing at initiative 1? What happens if that wraith gets killed in the mean time, after the normal Initiative, but before 1? They now count their initiative as it's normal value, which is over and gone, so, they never get to swing?

Please read the Who Can Fight section.

It states that "Some weapons can change a models initiative step". It also has a lot of rules that *only* work if a models initiative step is the step they fight on.

The rules say you pile in on your initiative step
The rules say you fight on your initiative step
The rules say you check for engagement on your initiative step.

It is all the same initiative step.

But unwieldy does not change a model's initiative. It simply changes when it strikes.

Traceoftoxin wrote:But unwieldy does not change a model's initiative. It simply changes when it strikes.

A strict reading of RAW that is correct.

But like the Silly RAW of:
"Non-vehicle models without eyes cannot shoot." or "Master of the Forge cannot bolster defenses as the rule refers to a Techmarine."

Or how the old Rage ules from 5th ed broke the game because you could not check LoS outside of the Shooting phase.

It is silly RAW and should probably be altered, as it kind of makes the game unplayable.

Coredump, you'd be correct if the rules said something like
At the initiative step that a model makes its attacks, it piles in, or something like that.

It doesnt. It says that 'at the start of each initiative step, a model who's initiative is equal to the value of the current initiative step..."
A I4 model with an unwieldy weapon has an initiative value of I4, so at I4 it piles in. An I4 model with a Nemesis Force Halberd still has an I value of I4, so piles in at I4.

Technically yes Kiredor, but as I said before:

It is silly RAW and should probably be altered, as it kind of makes the game unplayable.

Like the "Non-vehicle models without eyes cannot shoot." is technically correct, but that way lies madness.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kiredor wrote:Initiative and Initiative Step are not synonymous in the rules.

Pile In references a models Initiative.

Attacking is at an Initiative Step.

So Grey Knights with Halberds attack at I6, but do not pile in until I4?

It seems like an FAQ is in order.

No. Halberds add +2 to their init. Not that they strike at +2 to their init.

They will pile in and strike.at whatever you calculate their init is.

imweasel wrote:No. Halberds add +2 to their init. Not that they strike at +2 to their init.

They will pile in and strike.at whatever you calculate their init is.

Yea, the Halberd entry disagrees with you. P.54 GK Codex.

I dont have my gk codex with me. I will have to check that page tomorrow.

I remember it being just +2i.

GK codex says models with a halberd strike at +2I

oni wrote:Hmmm... I can see how it could work both ways, but IMO, pile-in will happen at the initiative step in which the model can strike.

Method 1
Q) If I'm a Howling Banshee that strikes at I10, why would I then Pile-In at I5? To give enemy a hug?

No, you pile-in at I5 because the RAW say you pile in at I5.