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I'm just starting to see what I can find regarding Precision Strikes and using them to attack units while in a Challenge.

Example: Abaddon with a small squad of chaos marines is challenged by a tactical squad of marines' PF sarg, who is in a squad of 10. He hits four times (3, 6, 4, 6). As he only needs one attack to wound to kill the sarg and can reroll to wound, the Chaos player takes the two "6's" that he rolled and allocates them to the PG and the ML in the tactical squad.

My question is: can he do this?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459779.page
Talks about allocating excess wounds from challenges. Not the same as precision strike, but is along the same thought line.

Wow really? I wrote the back quarter of that thread. I'm trying to do this right and keep the two issues separate.

That thread has done an excellent job staying on its topic and don't want to derail it.

So, can a precision strike be used (as given above) to allocate wounds, even while in a challenge?

Yes, as this is the only time you can allocate when not in base to base.

Pardon me for not reading exhaustively through that other thread, but by exactly what basis did you deduce that RAW attacks made by characters that are in a challenge cannot be allocated onto other base-to-base models that are part of the same units in the combat?

Because I see a big rules loophole stating that yes, the two characters in the challenge are only able to strike blows against each other, but I don't see anything stating that the wounds they cause can't be allocated onto other models that are also in base contact in the combat.

Sure the two characters are treated as only being in base contact with each other, but is there a rule that says that means their attacks must be allocated against each other (because the normal wound allocation rules in combat don't specify that from what I've found).


IMHO, the challenge rules are clearly supposed to dictate that the characters can only fight each other, so therefore the precision strike should not allow them to attack other models. However, RAW I think both precision and even non-precision strikes by the characters in the challenge can be allocated onto any model in the unit that is in B2B as normal.

And I would never, ever willingly play this way BTW. I think challenges are supposed to be completely self-inclusive.

So do alot of people yak and thats part of the problem. I am one of those people who thinks that wounds caused in a challenge are allocated only to those in the challenge but there just isint a rules basis for that. On the flip side, there also is also little rules basis for them being allocated to the rest of the unit. Usually I dont care either way (mostly b/c my destroyer lord is often the only one dealing wounds in the challenge anyway ) but it is quite a heated topic. That being said, I do feel if you can allocate wounds outside of a challenge, the precision one would definatly be applicable ones and I wouldnt argue that if my opponent suggested it.

Yakface - you are *only* "counts as" in btb with your challenge opponent for the duration of the challenge. This means that noone else can be in btb with the challenges, regardless of the actual position of models.

You also get told that a challenge always lasts the duration of the phase, no matter what actually happens in the challenge

You are unable to allocate wounds to models not in btb with you, barring precision strike, unless and until you are no longer in base to base with an enemy model

When you put all 3 together you are counts-as in btb with the other model in the chalenge, for the duration of the phase, meaning you are unable to allocate wounds to models not in base to base with you - so no overflow

The ONLY way to end up dropping wounds out is to use precision strike.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are unable to allocate wounds to models not in btb with you, barring precision strike, unless and until you are no longer in base to base with an enemy model.

Since when? Let's take challenges out of the question here (so we're talking normal combat here). Are you working under the presumption that normally if a character is only in base contact with a single enemy model that any wounds he inflicts have to go against the enemy model in base contact with him first and then move out from there?

Because if so, I don't see the rules backing that up. I see that a character fights fully as part of his unit and therefore any wounds he inflicts simply have to go against enemy models that are in base contact with any other model that is part of his unit.


And if you agree with what I'm saying above, what exactly in the rules for challenges changes what I've said above?

They can only inflict wounds on each other for the duration of the challenge. Since the challenge lasts till the end of the phase.......

Anyway, this is fast becoming a discussion that should not be had here. There is a thread about this discussion which evreyone is having it out in. I think it would be best to move the disscussion ther if the OP finds our outlook on their question sufficent.

yakface wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are unable to allocate wounds to models not in btb with you, barring precision strike, unless and until you are no longer in base to base with an enemy model.

Since when? Let's take challenges out of the question here (so we're talking normal combat here). Are you working under the presumption that normally if a character is only in base contact with a single enemy model that any wounds he inflicts have to go against the enemy model in base contact with him first and then move out from there?

Because if so, I don't see the rules backing that up. I see that a character fights fully as part of his unit and therefore any wounds he inflicts simply have to go against enemy models that are in base contact with any other model that is part of his unit.


And if you agree with what I'm saying above, what exactly in the rules for challenges changes what I've said above?

A wrote:'For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other... the challenge is still considered to be on going [if one is slain] until the end of the phase" page 64

B wrote:'A wound must be allocated to an enemy model in b2b with a model attacking at that Initiative Step. If there is more than one eligible candidate, the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model it is allocated to" page 25

C wrote:"Once all models that are not in a challenge have fought, it is time to resolve any challenges" page 429

Ok, we have two choices as I see it. Either we see the above quotes and conclude that the Challenge Characters can only strike each other, ever, in the combat, because, as strongly suggested by the wording of the entire challenge process, forging a narrative on page 25, and the summary on page 429 challenges follow their own initiative steps.

Or, we see the italics as saying, that if a character in challenge goes at initiative 1 along with other models in its unit, that the controlling player of the opposing force gets to place those wounds anywhere in the unit they want, without a LOS! roll, simply as they please.

Regardless, A disallows overflow, but if you want to argue that C isn't a rule, and B is in affect, then we've decided that the opposing player can allocate challenge wounds, at a superior advantage to LOS!, for all of the slower characters in challenges. But we can't take rules in parts. There is no way to allow overflow with out picking a choosing parts of rules to support it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to the OP, can anyone see a reason the precision strikes CAN'T be allocated outside the challenger vs the challengee?

Because, as I am reading the rules now, in lieu of a good RAW reason not to, I will keep operating under the assumption that you can.

A also hinges on the thought whether being in base combat actually counts for anything when the model is dead.

Also, the summary may state that it happens at the end after everyone else has had their attacks, but then the 'forging a narrative' boxout says they strike at their own initiative step as if it were in the rules (which it is not, unless you consider the narrative part of the rules). Is the 'forging a narrative' part of the rules? Why does it refer to non-existing rules.

Shandara wrote:A also hinges on the thought whether being in base combat actually counts for anything when the model is dead.

Also, the summary may state that it happens at the end after everyone else has had their attacks, but then the 'forging a narrative' boxout says they strike at their own initiative step as if it were in the rules (which it is not, unless you consider the narrative part of the rules). Is the 'forging a narrative' part of the rules? Why does it refer to non-existing rules.

Yeah, I don't think anyone can argue that GW worded all of this in the best way. I think the rule writers get rather smug in thinking that if you follow the rabbit trail of rules it all works.

Often people miss stops along the non-sequential, cross-referenced path (and sometimes they don't leave the right signposts along the way, leaving us to do a little guess work).

Would it have killed them to say something like "extra wounds done in close combat challenges overflow into the any also engaged unit at the proper Initiative" or "during a challenge, characters in the challenge can only strike each other"? Instead they are supremely confident that their wound allocation and challenge rules are ironclad and easy to follow while referring back and forth to each other, which clearly is not the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should add, that as a marine player, I'm equally ok with extra challenge wounds overflowing and with them being lost. I just want there to be a consensus that uses the rules correctly and can be supported to another player that didn't visit Dakka Dakka and read all of these threads/posts.

The way we play it at my FLGS is the same way it is resolved in WHFB. In challenges there, wounds do not overflow into the unit. However, there is an overkill factor where if you take more wounds than is in your profile, the difference is still added to combat rez. It keeps things balanced while keeping the spirit of the challenge.

And again I will suggest moving this over to the other thread. No sense in having 2 threads about the same topic.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:The way we play it at my FLGS is the same way it is resolved in WHFB. In challenges there, wounds do not overflow into the unit. However, there is an overkill factor where if you take more wounds than is in your profile, the difference is still added to combat rez. It keeps things balanced while keeping the spirit of the challenge.

Yeah, I really like this. I think it makes sense too, I just wish they had written that into the rules for 40k

Its suppused to represent the loss of moral when your champion gets torn to bits by a monster or evicerated by an enemy commander. I personally think it works really well

yakface wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are unable to allocate wounds to models not in btb with you, barring precision strike, unless and until you are no longer in base to base with an enemy model.

Since when?

Since 6th edition came out.

Let's take challenges out of the question here (so we're talking normal combat here). Are you working under the presumption that normally if a character is only in base contact with a single enemy model that any wounds he inflicts have to go against the enemy model in base contact with him first and then move out from there?

Absolutely. Since, as was previously mentioned, page 25 states:
"Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in the shooting phase....To resolve casualty removal, allocate each wound as follows:
A wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step."

Its not a presumption, it is RAW.

Because if so, I don't see the rules backing that up.

Try reading the rulebook? That generally helps when making decisions about what the rules are and what they mean.

I see that a character fights fully as part of his unit and therefore any wounds he inflicts simply have to go against enemy models that are in base contact with the character.

When not in a challenge this is correct. Notice I changed it to make it true though. The italics are the changed part.

And if you agree with what I'm saying above, what exactly in the rules for challenges changes what I've said above?

I don't agree with what you said above, and the rules for challenges says that the two combatants are considered to be in base contact only with each other so their wounds MUST go to each other and only each other, until one of them is removed as a casualty. And even though the challenge is not completed until the end of the phase that simply means that the winner cannot be hit after winning his challenge. The rules for allocating wounds states that once a model is removed as a casualty you continue to assign wounds to whomever is in base contact first, and if there is no one in base contact you allocate them to the next closet model.

With that being said, the rules for precision strikes makes your point. They can be used against any engaged model, not just those in base contact. Although other models cannot hurt the combatants I see nothing wrong with their attacks affecting combat. For example, during the fight Abbadon circles the brave, albeit suicidal, Sergeant and strikes down 2 Brother Marines to taunt the Sergeant into lowering his guard. The non-precision strikes must go against the Sergeant, but I see nothing in the rules that prevent a precision strike from going to the unit as a whole.

I like the way you structured the Abaddon narrative there

Captain Antivas wrote:

yakface wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are unable to allocate wounds to models not in btb with you, barring precision strike, unless and until you are no longer in base to base with an enemy model.

Since when?

Since 6th edition came out.

Try reading the rulebook? That generally helps when making decisions about what the rules are and what they mean.

I have obviously read the rules. When I say that I'm not seeing a rule that says X, I am saying simply that. It does not mean I am trying to insult or insinuate that such a rule does not exist, rather it is an invitation for someone else to point out the error of my ways (assuming I am in fact wrong).

I appreciate that you've taken the time to do so, but request that in the future you omit the insults. I have read the rules, and continue to make a good faith effort to discuss them.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Let's take challenges out of the question here (so we're talking normal combat here). Are you working under the presumption that normally if a character is only in base contact with a single enemy model that any wounds he inflicts have to go against the enemy model in base contact with him first and then move out from there?

Absolutely. Since, as was previously mentioned, page 25 states:
"Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model, just like in the shooting phase....To resolve casualty removal, allocate each wound as follows:
A wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step."

Its not a presumption, it is RAW.

You say that it is the 'RAW' yet the rule you have posted does not say that wounds caused by a character have to be allocated to enemy models they are in base contact with, just that they have to be allocated onto enemy models that are in base contact with models in the character's unit that are striking at the same initiative step.

Again, taking the challenge rules out of the picture here (so just talking about a character fighting normally with his unit), when a character causes unsaved wounds, these wounds do not have to be allocated starting with the enemy models that are in base contact with him, they can be allocated to ANY enemy model that happens to be in base contact with another friendly model who is striking at the same initiative step as the character.

So I don't see any rules (and am looking for them) that would indicate that a character being in a challenge changes this. Yes, they are only in base contact with their challenge-foe, but the rules don't actually specify that you must allocate wounds inflicted by characters in a challenge onto each other as long as there are other models from their units that are in base contact with each other and are striking at the same Initiative step, you are free to allocate the wounds caused by the challenge onto those enemy models (RAW).

Therefore IMHO, RAW in a challenge:

• Regular wounds (non-precision strike wounds) inflicted by either challenge combatant can be allocated by the opposing player onto any model in the unit that the character is part of (not just hiim), provided that model is in base contact with an enemy that also attacked during that initiative step.
• Precision Strike wounds inflicted by either challenge combatant are allocated by the attacking player onto any enemy model that is engaged in combat against his unit (not just him).


However, I think the intent of the rules is for challenge combatants to only be able to hurt each other, so personally I would choose to play that neither of the above apply and instead all attacks made by either challenge combatant have to be allocated only onto each other.

Captain Antivas wrote:

I see that a character fights fully as part of his unit and therefore any wounds he inflicts simply have to go against enemy models that are in base contact with the character.

When not in a challenge this is correct. Notice I changed it to make it true though. The italics are the changed part.

But this is not the case! Again, characters fight as part of their unit and there is nothing in the challenge rules that indicates that when the characters are locked in a challenge they cease to count as being part of their unit. It is clear that nobody outside the challenge can allocate attacks onto the models in the challenge, but there are no additional rules restricting where the attacks generated by the challenge combatants can be allocated.

Therefore, any attacks made by a challenge combatant can be allocated onto any enemy model in the combat that happens to be in base contact with an enemy who is striking at the same initiative step as the character attacking in the challenge.

I've got to say antivas, yak is right. That was a bit uncalled for. Not everyone interprets the rules the same way. Thats what this forum is for. Please choose your words more carefully next time so it dosent sound like you are challenging yak to a fistfight.

I really hope GW FAQs this ASAP (silly, I know, to hope that). I don't care if I'm wrong, I just want a definite, set in stone ruling. When building a list, its kinda important to know how challenges will play out, and I will certainly concede that there is enough grey that there's no way to predict which way a future opponent will go with this.

BTW: have there been any significant Tournaments (not some local thingy, but big, regional tournaments)? Does anyone know (and can show) how they ruled on this? Duel Con, might be a good place to look, do they have an FAQ for people already signed up?

Lobukia wrote:I really hope GW FAQs this ASAP (silly, I know, to hope that). I don't care if I'm wrong, I just want a definite, set in stone ruling. When building a list, its kinda important to know how challenges will play out, and I will certainly concede that there is enough grey that there's no way to predict which way a future opponent will go with this.

BTW: have there been any significant Tournaments (not some local thingy, but big, regional tournaments)? Does anyone know (and can show) how they ruled on this? Duel Con, might be a good place to look, do they have an FAQ for people already signed up?

There have been no big 6th edition GTs yet. There is the Golden Throne in San Jose, CA coming up really, really soon that is using 6th edition, and after that the NOVA Open. To my knowledge, neither of these events has published a FAQ yet, although I know that NOVA (at least) will be at some point.

And of course we'll be releasing the INAT FAQ for 6th edition at some point (for those tournaments that use the INAT), but I've got a lot of writing and editing to do on that before it ever sees the light of day so I'd wager a few months still for that.

yakface wrote:

Lobukia wrote:I really hope GW FAQs this ASAP (silly, I know, to hope that). I don't care if I'm wrong, I just want a definite, set in stone ruling. When building a list, its kinda important to know how challenges will play out, and I will certainly concede that there is enough grey that there's no way to predict which way a future opponent will go with this.

BTW: have there been any significant Tournaments (not some local thingy, but big, regional tournaments)? Does anyone know (and can show) how they ruled on this? Duel Con, might be a good place to look, do they have an FAQ for people already signed up?

There have been no big 6th edition GTs yet. There is the Golden Throne in San Jose, CA coming up really, really soon that is using 6th edition, and after that the NOVA Open. To my knowledge, neither of these events has published a FAQ yet, although I know that NOVA (at least) will be at some point.

And of course we'll be releasing the INAT FAQ for 6th edition at some point (for those tournaments that use the INAT), but I've got a lot of writing and editing to do on that before it ever sees the light of day so I'd wager a few months still for that.

I just checked them both, and submitted the issue at hand to the Golden Throne GT (I'm sure they've got it a thousand times already, but just to make sure).

Well Yak it appears I owe you an apology. My comments were meant to be sarcastic and snarky not insulting. I do sometimes struggle with coming of meaner than I intend. So for that I am sorry.

Also, you bring up some valid points I looked over. It's amazing how even when writing I missed the "an attacker" and thought it said "the attacker"...this changes my entire perception of wound allocation. Thanks for clearing that up and sorry again for coming off as bad as I did.

I read something today, lets try it on for size. Page 64 under Outside Forces it says "-simply resolve the Wound allocation step as if the two characters were not there." I would say that sentence applies to the characters Wound allocation as well as that is part of the Wound allocation step. Thoughts?

Yeah, I think that ends precision strikes for challenges too

Yes, I am changing my opinion on this matter officially. Challenge wounds apply only to the combatants involved.

I hate to do this (no I don't, not really), but the "Outside Forces" section is talking about what the rest of the unit can do the the challengers. Which is basically nothing.

So no wound that the rest of the unit may score can be placed on the challengers. But again, it says nothing about where the challengers can place the wounds that they cause.

Bean's Herald wrote:I hate to do this (no I don't, not really), but the "Outside Forces" section is talking about what the rest of the unit can do the the challengers. Which is basically nothing.

So no wound that the rest of the unit may score can be placed on the challengers. But again, it says nothing about where the challengers can place the wounds that they cause.

But wound allocation does... to models they are in b2b with (which is each other, even if one is slain) until the end of the phase

Lobukia wrote:

Bean's Herald wrote:I hate to do this (no I don't, not really), but the "Outside Forces" section is talking about what the rest of the unit can do the the challengers. Which is basically nothing.

So no wound that the rest of the unit may score can be placed on the challengers. But again, it says nothing about where the challengers can place the wounds that they cause.

But wound allocation does... to models they are in b2b with (which is each other, even if one is slain) until the end of the phase

Again that isn't accurate. Models in combat don't allocate wounds just to the enemy models they're in contact with, it can be on ANY model in the combat that is in contact with a friendly model from their unit that is also striking at the same I step as them. So long as that condition is met, there doesn't seem to be any rules preventing challenge wounds from being allocated onto non-challenge models.

yakface wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

Bean's Herald wrote:I hate to do this (no I don't, not really), but the "Outside Forces" section is talking about what the rest of the unit can do the the challengers. Which is basically nothing.

So no wound that the rest of the unit may score can be placed on the challengers. But again, it says nothing about where the challengers can place the wounds that they cause.

But wound allocation does... to models they are in b2b with (which is each other, even if one is slain) until the end of the phase

Again that isn't accurate. Models in combat don't allocate wounds just to the enemy models they're in contact with, it can be on ANY model in the combat that is in contact with a friendly model from their unit that is also striking at the same I step as them. So long as that condition is met, there doesn't seem to be any rules preventing challenge wounds from being allocated onto non-challenge models.

All this circular talk has me confused.

The bold part above, you are speaking specifically only to precision strikes, and not just any attack made by the IC, right?

NVM, I'm with you.