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Ok, I'm really curious. IF (and I mean big if, because I can't see it happening) overflow out of challenges is allowed, how would it work. What mechanics would be used and what rules support it?


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I would like to look at two scenarios:

A) Jain Zar and Banshees attacking tactical marines with Lysander

B) Abaddon and chaos marines attacking tactical marines with Lysander

Let's do B first. This is what you all envision. Abby hits on a 3+, charging he can have 11 attacks, and he rerolls to wound. Say 8 hit, 7 wound, and Lysander fails his 4th roll on the 6th save. So that extra wound is applied to the squad and a tactical dies... what we all envision, and how overflow works by the rules.

A) is a nightmare. Jain Zar is challenged by the Sargent, not Lysander. As the entire squad is going at I10, the SM player gets to allocate all of Jain Zar's wounds. Every strike she makes is allocated to Lysander. If he starts failing too many, he allocates using LOS! (before he rolls the save) and killing off marines (he's not in the challenge after all) Then the Sarg goes with his PF at I1 (along with Lysander) and the Eldar player gets to choose whether Jain Zar takes the wounds or another Banshee in b2b with Lysander. Nothing is really gained here... what now was the point of a Challenge in the first place?

If you want B, you have to let A in the overflow door too.

I'm assuming this is an off-shoot of the main thread dealing with this topic?

Happyjew wrote:I'm assuming this is an off-shoot of the main thread dealing with this topic?

Yes, I don't want to bury the discussion on overflow in how it would work by the rules (as the discussion already has countless people jumping in with out reading prior posts and the two topics would keep leapfrogging each other).

This wasn't meant as sarcasm. I really want to know, if the stars align and planets all ascend and overflow is allowed, how on earth would it work from a RAW point of view?

Lobukia wrote:

A) is a nightmare. Jain Zar is challenged by the Sargent, not Lysander. As the entire squad is going at I10, the SM player gets to allocate all of Jain Zar's wounds. Every strike she makes is allocated to Lysander. If he starts failing too many, he allocates using LOS! (before he rolls the save) and killing off marines (he's not in the challenge after all) Then the Sarg goes with his PF at I1 (along with Lysander) and the Eldar player gets to choose whether Jain Zar takes the wounds or another Banshee in b2b with Lysander. Nothing is really gained here... what now was the point of a Challenge in the first place?

If you want B, you have to let A in the overflow door too.

B is no different then what would happen if you struck at Ini 10 with no challenge - the controlling player is free to send all wound to Lysander if Lysander is in base contact with the Banshee squad. Except if it is a challenge, you're pretty much sure to kill at least the Sergeant.

In order for overflow to happen, you must first kill the challenger.

Tarkand wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

A) is a nightmare. Jain Zar is challenged by the Sargent, not Lysander. As the entire squad is going at I10, the SM player gets to allocate all of Jain Zar's wounds. Every strike she makes is allocated to Lysander. If he starts failing too many, he allocates using LOS! (before he rolls the save) and killing off marines (he's not in the challenge after all) Then the Sarg goes with his PF at I1 (along with Lysander) and the Eldar player gets to choose whether Jain Zar takes the wounds or another Banshee in b2b with Lysander. Nothing is really gained here... what now was the point of a Challenge in the first place?

If you want B, you have to let A in the overflow door too.

B is no different then what would happen if you struck at Ini 10 with no challenge - the controlling player is free to send all wound to Lysander if Lysander is in base contact with the Banshee squad. Except if it is a challenge, you're pretty much sure to kill at least the Sergeant.

In order for overflow to happen, you must first kill the challenger.

No, you overflow chaps are arguing that normal wound allocation applies. If the challenger gets to allocate as part of the unit, it is just one of many in base to base, and allocation is based on ALL models striking at that initiative. Page 25... take a look

Normal wound allocation do apply.

However, since the models are only in B2B with each other, wound can only be allocated to each other... until they die. At that point, they are no longer in B2B with anyone and the engaged rules take over. This is the exact same reasoning you are using to force a model to strike a casualties that isn't even there anymore but is 'considered' in B2B - you can't have it both way here...

Or if some people are making that argument over there, I'm not one of em

Guess we have 3 camps?

My bad Lobukia. That was actually just me.

Though I take full responsibility, specially if it's right. And oh god, I hope not. I hope it's determined that challenges are removed from the normal assault.

Just stop crying and realize that your Daemon Prince cannot sit there in a challenge with a Sergeant and kill his whole squad while they can do nothing back to him.

However, since the models are only in B2B with each other, wound can only be allocated to each other... until they die. At that point, they are no longer in B2B with anyone and the engaged rules take over. This is the exact same reasoning you are using to force a model to strike a casualties that isn't even there anymore but is 'considered' in B2B - you can't have it both way here...

But according to the rules you don't have to be in BTB with a model to attack it only has to be BTB with a model attacking at that initiative step. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You don't have to be in BTB with a model to have wounds allocated to them as long as there is another model with that same initiative who is in BTB with them. You are making the same argument they are you just don't realize it since you are forgetting some of the important parts of the rules.

Captain Antivas wrote:

But according to the rules you don't have to be in BTB with a model to attack it only has to be BTB with a model attacking at that initiative step.

And it's not in B2B with any other model but the one he's challenging... until that guy die. The controlling player can only allocate wound to valid target, in this case, the only model that is in B2B.

Unlike you, I'm not twisting the words to say that a model remain in B2B with a removed casualties because it said they were considered to be in B2B in the previous header, nor am I twisting the rule for outside forces so that they also apply to the challengers.

The intellectual dishonesty is striking here... you guys are using the same argument to both justify and invalidate the same point. It can't be both.

Tarkand wrote:
And it's not in B2B with any other model but the one he's challenging... until that guy die.

Challengers are in B2B with only each other even after the other one dies until the end of the Assault Phase.

Sacred Feth! Are we really going there again? Everyone who acctually read the rule more than once agrees that challangees remain in BTB until the end of the assult phase even if one of them is reduce to 0 wounds. The rule just cannot be misinterpreted.

Fighting a Challange :BRB Pg.64
"If a challange has been accepted/.../ For the duration of the challange, these two models are concidered to be in base to base contact with only each other.''

-Combatants slain :BRB Pg.64
"When one of the combatants in a challange is slain, regardless of with initiative step it is, the challange is concidered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

Tarkand wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

But according to the rules you don't have to be in BTB with a model to attack it only has to be BTB with a model attacking at that initiative step.

And it's not in B2B with any other model but the one he's challenging... until that guy die. The controlling player can only allocate wound to valid target, in this case, the only model that is in B2B.

Unlike you, I'm not twisting the words to say that a model remain in B2B with a removed casualties because it said they were considered to be in B2B in the previous header, nor am I twisting the rule for outside forces so that they also apply to the challengers.

The intellectual dishonesty is striking here... you guys are using the same argument to both justify and invalidate the same point. It can't be both.

Fighting a Challange :BRB Pg.64
"If a challange has been accepted/.../ For the duration of the challange, these two models are concidered to be in base to base contact with only each other.''

-Combatants slain :BRB Pg.64
"When one of the combatants in a challange is slain, regardless of with initiative step it is, the challange is concidered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

So, guess youre wrong on this, still. It isnt intellectual dishonesty when you keep ignoring the rules.

Tarkand wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

But according to the rules you don't have to be in BTB with a model to attack it only has to be BTB with a model attacking at that initiative step.

And it's not in B2B with any other model but the one he's challenging... until that guy die. The controlling player can only allocate wound to valid target, in this case, the only model that is in B2B.

Unlike you, I'm not twisting the words to say that a model remain in B2B with a removed casualties because it said they were considered to be in B2B in the previous header, nor am I twisting the rule for outside forces so that they also apply to the challengers.

The intellectual dishonesty is striking here... you guys are using the same argument to both justify and invalidate the same point. It can't be both.

Apparently you don't understand what "in BTB with a model attacking at that initiative step" means...

There is no twisting here, except by you. Again, you are pointing at rules and saying "That's a tree, that's a tree, that's a tree. and that is a tree, there are so many individual trees here.." So we say "they all go together because you are in a forest,' and you say "NO! I am in a place with a high concentration of trees!" You can examine each individual rule by itself and name the trees or you can take a step back and realize that every single rule in that section applies to Challenges, so they all go together and see the freaking forest.

Lets assume for a moment that you are right about Outside Forces applying ONLY to the rest of the units in combat (and this is a big what-if since there is no way on Heaven or Earth that this is the case) then the rule saying that you complete the allocate wounds step like the combatants were not there then stops you from allocating the combatant's wounds to them since when it is time to allocate those wounds to the Outside Forces the combatants are not there. Still only applies to the Outside Forces like you think it should but still agrees with my point.

Brain explosion part 2!!

Why would you do this....WHY!!!!!

Dooley wrote:Brain explosion part 2!!

Why would you do this....WHY!!!!!

I just can't stop myself. There is stupid all over and it is like a car crash. I can't look away no matter how hard I try and how much I want to!