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Hey everyone,

My Orks need a definite overhaul, as they are not the "best" list, even in 5th. Now in 6th they are pretty terrible. Despite my love of deff dreads, they just aren't cutting it against my usual opponents anymore and will probably be replaced by what I am deeming a more 'Mad Maxx" style of play for my Orks. It's basically a Battlewagon bash, as they are one of the few decent Ork alternatives for heavy machinery that I have as my "fluff" for my army, and I really liek the models for them etc. Here is what I came up with thus far. Keep in mind that the themes for my army are typically rust, fire, and large machines/kontraptions.

HQ
Big Mek = 120 (rides with the 19 boyz in BW)
-Kustom Force Field
-Burna
-Cybork
-Bosspole

Big Mek = 120 (rides with the 19 boyz in BW)
-Kustom Force Field
-Burna
-Cybork
-Bosspole

Troops
19 Shoota Boyz = 164 (go in a BW)
-Nob with Power Klaw, 'Eavy armor, Bosspole
-Big Shoota

19 Shoota Boyz = 164 (Go in a BW)
-Nob with Power Klaw, 'Eavy armor, Bosspole
-Big Shoota

20 Shoota Boyz = 175 (Go in a BW)
-Nob with Power Klaw, 'Eavy armor, Bosspole
-2x Big Shoota

Fast Attack:

Burna Bommer = 165
-4x Skorcha Rokkits

Deffkopta = 70
-TL Rokkit
-Buzzsaw

Deffkopta = 70
-TL Rokkit
- Buzzsaw


Heavy

Battle Wagon = 150
-4x Big Shootas
-Deff rolla
-grot riggers
-Armor plates
-Red Paint Job

Battle Wagon = 150
-4x Big Shootas
-Deff rolla
-grot riggers
-Armor plates
-Red Paint Job

Battle Wagon = 150
-4x Big Shootas
-Deff rolla
-grot riggers
-Armor plates
-Red Paitn Job

TOTAL: 1,498

I guess the idea of the list was to counter the fact that most of my opponents are pretty decent at shooting and whither my slower Orks down before I can do anything. The BWs may get destroyed but even if I can get 2 turns of moving and shooting out of em that'd be worth it I feel. The main area I feel the list could be changed is the Fast Attack. I am picking the Burna Bommer because it sounds fun (especially against my IG opponent) and because it fits with the look and theme of my army. Deffkoptaz are pretty decent at popping tanks when they outflank, and it is certainly something that this army lacks, with only 3 power klaws.

Conversely, I can drop the koptaz and a Big Mek and get two 120 point dakkajets, and have a few extra points to put somewhere else in the army.

Thoughts?

I am also looking to expand the list to 1750 eventually as well. I hope/want to include some dakkajets regardless and probably a unit of lootaz for some fire support (although they may get left behind). Or, maybe even moving some of the shootaz into trukks to have a loota-filled battlewagon of shooty doom.

Again, thoughts?

-WAAGH!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
On second thought, perhaps I could drop one unit of shoota boyz, put them into two trukks (12 and 12) and then have a battlewagon with a Warboss (replace a Big Mek) and put him in with Nobz.

Thoughts?

2 Big Meks is overkill.

1 Big Mek in the middle wagon gives you a 6" KFF radius measured from the hull.

Orks already excel in anti-infantry. How about a Dakkajet?

Wagons are good.

Mobs are good.

Koptas with Rokkits and Buzzsaws are very pricy. They tend to die once they've done there job. I suggest just running your koptas with just Twin-Linked Rokkits.

On your trukk note:

2 Trukks isn't enough. 3 is the minimum. 5 is safer.

I would have to agree the koptas are not as good as they once were. I would drop them and take some Buggies/Trakks with rokkits. You can get about 2 for the price of one of the koptas. They will give you models on the field,

I disagree, you should keep both Meks. It alloys you to split your army if need be with out having to sacrifice anything. Instead of the Burna you could give him a PK. If you add planks to the wagons then they can attak vehicle while staying in the transports. The boys will have to get out at some point now to hold objectives. Keeping him in the wagon will help it survive and help deal with tanks.

I don't know how the planes do, but I thik the dakka jet is probably the better choice, for nothing else then AA help.

That is my opinion on your list. Good luck!

Ok cool. Maybe I will drop the buzzsaws and keep both Big Meks, which I like, because it gives me an even bigger bubble of support coming from the Battlewagons. I could maybe try and add in another deffkopta to make a sqaud of 2, and a squad of 1. I like the burna bommer for the theme of my army, and I will definitely want some (probably two) dakkajets. At this point I am basically debating whether I should drop both of the koptaz and grab a dakkajet or get three cheap kopta with rockets only. Anti-Tank is the biggest problem with this army, but for the most part, loads of Orks can munch up vehicles with hits on rear anyway. Also, I have the deff rolla if need be. Also, If I'm close enough, tanks aren't too much of a problem anymore, as they will probably only get one more shot off before they have to retreat or blow up their own troops (not too terrible an idea).

I'll play with the list a bit.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:I would have to agree the koptas are not as good as they once were. I would drop them and take some Buggies/Trakks with rokkits. You can get about 2 for the price of one of the koptas. They will give you models on the field,

I disagree, you should keep both Meks. It alloys you to split your army if need be with out having to sacrifice anything. Instead of the Burna you could give him a PK. If you add planks to the wagons then they can attak vehicle while staying in the transports. The boys will have to get out at some point now to hold objectives. Keeping him in the wagon will help it survive and help deal with tanks.

I don't know how the planes do, but I thik the dakka jet is probably the better choice, for nothing else then AA help.

That is my opinion on your list. Good luck!

You shouldn't ever split your army when fielding battlewagons, you don't have enough models to do that. In addition, as soon as battlewagons split up, you are exposing way more side armor. The best thing to prevent side shots is not the KFF, but another battlewagon standing in front of it. The PK+plank combo is also not that important anymore, as skimmers will now die to the deff rolla - besides, the boyz nob already has a klaw. So I'd keep the burna, as you get the wall of death hits when the unit or the battlewagon is assaulted, and the big mek can now use it much better in close combat, as he can't be picked out any more. I would also lose the boss pole, two poles in one unit don't do much. Also keep in mind that one of those meks is worth a VP, so you don't exactly want it cruising around your opponents vehicles all by itself.

I would simply drop the second KFF mek and replace him with a warboss or nothing at all and spend the points on something completely different.

The burna bommer is great against anything without 3+ or 2+ armor, so I would keep it while replacing the koptaz with a dakka jet. You can neither assault after scouting, nor after arriving from reserves, so the buzzsaw is no longer worth its 25 points IMHO.

One more thing: Four big shootaz on one battlewagon means at least one of them is going to be a sponson, making it unable to fire half the time. I'd settle for two per wagon and either add a kannon or spend the points elsewhere.

As for trukks: You can hide one trukk behind battlewagons, but I wouldn't do that until you start reaching 2k points. Before that, there is so much other stuff you want to get first - like lootaz, planes or buggies. Speaking of lootaz, your list should definitely have some.
If you are worried about scoring, simply reserve a unit of gretchin. They still get 3+ cover saves when hitting the ground in area terrain - if you have 140 points to spare get them a aegis defense line with quad gun, for extremely hard to remove all-round shooting.

Thanks Jidmah, those were excellent suggestions!

I will give the koptaz a try with JUST rokkits, because I alreayd have the models. And then if they are not what I want, I'll probably replace them with a dakkajet or something. I'm not a huge fan of grots ever, as they don't fit the flavor of my army, but I may consider them if the objectives keep eluding me.

Also, on the note of "splitting" the army. I never intended to split/deploy it apart from the other wagons. What I was imagining is that I can give myself a larger blanket of KFF protection and when/if it fails, I have another one to swing over and pick up the wagon that is lacking in a KFF protector.

In regards to the burnas and bunra bommers, that was my thinking exactly. Barring challenges, there's no way to pick out the Big Mek (and I can always refuse the challenges) and his +d3 overwatch never hurts, especially against charges of guardsmen etc (which occasionally happens). The burna bommer was added due to thematic reasons and because I fight 20+ man blobs of guardsmen (x2 or x3 usually) and then blobs of slow moving Space Wolves. Against MEQ, the dakkajet isn't piercing their armor either so I figured Lootas or hordes o boyz would take em out too. Also, causing a butt ton of wounds never hurts to down some angry terminators. Then I can run over the rest with the deffrolla!

For this list I have decided to drop the trukk idea, and maybe incorporate them at 1750 or 2k.

I want to add lootaz, but I don't know where they will fit. I could drop the koptaz and use the points for them, but I'd prefer a dakkajet (kind of like flying lootaz hehe). I guess I could drop a big mek and use the 120 pts for about 8 lootaz, but I feel that isn't enough. Also, not using two big meks makes the one wagon he is prime turn 1 shooting. If his wagon gets taken out, the other wagons are completely vulnerable and are going to die even faster (the Vindicare Assassin kills one every turn, pretty easily. 4d6+3 for armor pen and then AP1, and wagons are open-topped). He pretty much auto-pens and then destroys them on a 4+ with bad effects no matter what (unless weapon destroyed).

-WAAGH!

If your KFF wagon gets destroyed, simply kick another boyz unit out of their wagon and use theirs. Make sure the vindicare dies ASAP, by shooting every big shoota, deff gun or whatever else you have at it. It really isn't that tough and should die quickly to volume of fire. Alternatively, charge it with a kopta. It can't shoot when locked in combat.

Another neat trick against high-strength low-ap shooting is to deploy your battlewagons inside ruins (or behind rocks, if your tables have those). Those still provide 4+ cover, and thanks to the deff rolla, we couldn't care less about those dangerous terrain rolls.

Don't worry about small units of lootaz. I constantly run two units of 5 and simply deploy them where they can see well, sometimes right in plain sight (wouldn't suggest that against IG though). They are supposed to take care of things like the vindicare, MCs or IG artillery, once they have done that, they are free to die.

Jidmah wrote:If your KFF wagon gets destroyed, simply kick another boyz unit out of their wagon and use theirs. Make sure the vindicare dies ASAP, by shooting every big shoota, deff gun or whatever else you have at it. It really isn't that tough and should die quickly to volume of fire. Alternatively, charge it with a kopta. It can't shoot when locked in combat.

Another neat trick against high-strength low-ap shooting is to deploy your battlewagons inside ruins (or behind rocks, if your tables have those). Those still provide 4+ cover, and thanks to the deff rolla, we couldn't care less about those dangerous terrain rolls.

Don't worry about small units of lootaz. I constantly run two units of 5 and simply deploy them where they can see well, sometimes right in plain sight (wouldn't suggest that against IG though). They are supposed to take care of things like the vindicare, MCs or IG artillery, once they have done that, they are free to die.

Ok that sounds like a good plan. I will see where I can incorporate some Lootas into the list. Mainly as a means to take out that vindicare ASAP. I imagine the dakkajets and/or koptas shooting at it would make it die as well, as they would pretty much instant kill it if I'm not mistaken. Maybe even dropping a burna missile on him would work too, as it would ignore whatever cover he is in and most likely ignore his armor save (I think it's a 4+?). He is the major pain in my a** when I fight those IG. The Grey Knights allies are really really powerful, but volumes of big shootas and shootas firing at them will down them pretty quick. He has to roll 1s eventually haha.

On the topic of ruins, we sort of have them. There are a few mini ruins we have, but they only confer 4+ if you are in area terrain with them, which is hard with such a huge vehicle. Most of ou terrainw as based around 5th where terrain was almost always a straight up 4+. Now everything we have is a 5+ and the ruins are a three tiered building and that's it :/ We will probably invest in some new terrain soon though. The terrain change only hurts my armies and buffs the IG a TON. Oh well. We will survive some other way haha.

-WAAGH!

A dakkajet has to start in reserves, you might have lost as many as 3 battlewagons before it enters the board.

You should also check on ruin/cover rules. All walls of the ruin provide 4+ cover if they hide 25% of the model, even if the model is 48" away. The base being area terrain doesn't change this, but rather allows a 5+ area terrain save to models inside the ruin which are in plain sight (who would not get a save at all in an unbased ruin).
Basically anything consisting of rocks or concrete will still provide a 4+ cover save. Just point your pals to the rulebook if they doubt it.

Yeah we have some ruined walls etc but most of them are these makeshift barricade things that barely cover 25% of the vehicle. And models behind them we count as a 5+ now bc I believe the rulebook says makeshift barricades etc are a 5+. In 5th they were a 4+ though. W/e, at the local GW we use ore ruins so I guess that'll be ok.

And good point about the fliers. I sort of forgot about that haha.

-WAAGH!

Jidmah wrote:

balsak_da_mighty wrote:I would have to agree the koptas are not as good as they once were. I would drop them and take some Buggies/Trakks with rokkits. You can get about 2 for the price of one of the koptas. They will give you models on the field,

I disagree, you should keep both Meks. It alloys you to split your army if need be with out having to sacrifice anything. Instead of the Burna you could give him a PK. If you add planks to the wagons then they can attak vehicle while staying in the transports. The boys will have to get out at some point now to hold objectives. Keeping him in the wagon will help it survive and help deal with tanks.

I don't know how the planes do, but I thik the dakka jet is probably the better choice, for nothing else then AA help.

That is my opinion on your list. Good luck!

You shouldn't ever split your army when fielding battlewagons, you don't have enough models to do that. In addition, as soon as battlewagons split up, you are exposing way more side armor. The best thing to prevent side shots is not the KFF, but another battlewagon standing in front of it. The PK+plank combo is also not that important anymore, as skimmers will now die to the deff rolla - besides, the boyz nob already has a klaw. So I'd keep the burna, as you get the wall of death hits when the unit or the battlewagon is assaulted, and the big mek can now use it much better in close combat, as he can't be picked out any more. I would also lose the boss pole, two poles in one unit don't do much. Also keep in mind that one of those meks is worth a VP, so you don't exactly want it cruising around your opponents vehicles all by itself.

I do agree with some of your remarks. I have to disagree with the splitting up. You say the BW's cover the side of the other BW's. At some point there is going to be a side exposed anyways. At 1500 the other army only has so many weapons to deal with 3+ BW's anyways. If you split them up that spreads firepower even more. There is turning to face which I am sure most will be doing anyways. So you should only be exposing your side to fast movers which will find the sides anyways as that is what tghey do. Having both KFF's help cover if one get blown out of there BW also. As I said "split if need be".

Now as far as the PK+Plank. I use mine to target something other then what the BW just charged. Making it able to deal with two threats at once. For the cost I think it is well worth the option to have it on there. I really don't see the point in the burna when a PK would only cost you 5 more points. Like you said the Mek can't be singled out anymore so that AP 2 weapon could be very useful.

But this is of course my opinions on the matter.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:I do agree with some of your remarks. I have to disagree with the splitting up. You say the BW's cover the side of the other BW's. At some point there is going to be a side exposed anyways. At 1500 the other army only has so many weapons to deal with 3+ BW's anyways. If you split them up that spreads firepower even more.

Uh, what? Only if you opponent has absolutely no idea what he is doing or is playing black templar and failing all his "Kill them all!" tests. In which a case tactics shouldn't be an issue anyways. There is absolutely not point in splitting your firepower between battlewagons. If it could have shot one of the wagons when not split up it can also shoot that wagon when they split up. With premeasuring the decision is even easier for your opponent - he simply picks the battlewagon he needs to kill the most and shoots it with everything that can hurt it. Whether that battlewagon is next to two other or 48" away makes absolutely no difference.

There is turning to face which I am sure most will be doing anyways. So you should only be exposing your side to fast movers which will find the sides anyways as that is what tghey do. Having both KFF's help cover if one get blown out of there BW also. As I said "split if need be".

Any smart gunline player (tau, imperials, some necron variants) will deploy in the corners of the board, exposing side-armor to stationary elements by turn 2 simply due to geometry. Any vehicle with a gun can get into your side by turn two. There is no way to prevent that, unless you are staying in your deployment zone. Good luck with that.

[spoiler]Now as far as the PK+Plank. I use mine to target something other then what the BW just charged. Making it able to deal with two threats at once. For the cost I think it is well worth the option to have it on there.

I like the burna as anything that the PK would do damage to, the wagon or PK nob would take care of. The burna also gives a lot of guard killing potential (S4 ap 5) in a large cone and god forbid I get charged, I get +d3 auto hits with the flamer, which definitely helps. Regular attacks pretty much kill guard anyway and the sheer weight of attacks from the boyz is usually the best way to kill terminators as is. Also, the burna fits well with the 'fluff' of my army.

-WAAGH!