Tau Smart Missle System - RAW broken in 6th?

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**foolishmortal**

While researching a different Tau rules question, I noticed in the Tau Codex 6th Ed Update, that the Smart Missile System allowed the user to fire at target units not in LoS, but made no provision for them to wound the out of LoS unit. Did I miss something?

p27 Tau Codex
p2 6th ed Codex Update

**Lobokai**

No, target means they can fire and therefore wound/slay. Ruling lawyering to say a rule/unit/weapon can't work is just silly (not saying you are, but others will and soon).

**foolishmortal**

Lobukia wrote:Ruling lawyering to say a rule/unit/weapon can't work is just silly (not saying you are, but others will and soon).

No, no, I am rules lawering here, but please be aware of the title of the thread. I'm asking for a RAW answer.

RAI I think it's obvious that a weapon with a special ability to shoot at things not in LoS should absolutely be able to wound them. But again, that's not what I'm asking.

RAW, can the Smart Missile System wound a unit out of LoS?

**juraigamer**

I was thinking the same thing when I first read the rulebook and FAQ.

If barrage weapons can hurt things they can't see, SMS can do so as well.

**Happyjew**

The problem is RAW, only barrage, and possibly blasts (which is already under discussion, and does not need to be hashed out here) are the only way to actually wound units completely out of LoS. HIWPI, however, SMS, Impaler Cannon, Astral Aim, etc can all wound units completely out of sight.

**White Ninja**

As far as I know it would still wound the closes models you just don't need to be able to see them to shoot them.

**Xzerios**

The rules for templates covers this. As its an advanced rule, it takes precedence over the normal rules for firing LoS. Wounds caused by the blast are still removed per the normal rules of removing models in the shooting phase (closest to the firing model).

Same issue arouse when talking about the Tesla Destructor's 'Ark' special rule from the Necron Codex.

**Fafnir13**

If you're allowed to hit something out of LOS, you can wound it. Why else would you be allowed to hit it?

**Happyjew**

Fafnir13 wrote:If you're allowed to hit something out of LOS, you can wound it. Why else would you be allowed to hit it?

And after you roll to wound, the wound are discarded sure to no models being in sight.

Unless you have a rule allowing wounds to be allocated?

**coredump**

Foolish, you are correct. they don't work as intended according to RAW. And they are not the only things. Hive Guard have the same problem, they can shoot and wound a unit, but no models can have those wounds allocated.

I have not heard of anyone who plans on playing it that way.

**rigeld2**

Happyjew wrote:The problem is RAW, only barrage, and possibly blasts (which is already under discussion, and does not need to be hashed out here) are the only way to actually wound units completely out of LoS. HIWPI, however, SMS, Impaler Cannon, Astral Aim, etc can all wound units completely out of sight.

This guy says smart things. I'm going to agree with him so I seem smart too.
Mission Accomplished.

**Pottsey**

If a weapon ignores lOS wouldn’t that mean effectively everything is in LOS. So for smarts everything within 24” counts as within LOS even if you cannot draw a line.

**Ostrakon**

Lobukia wrote:No, target means they can fire and therefore wound/slay. Ruling lawyering to say a rule/unit/weapon can't work is just silly (not saying you are, but others will and soon).

If "reading the rules" now falls into the "rules lawyering" category, why even bother? Might as well make gak up as we go along.

Termagants now have rending attacks! That was obviously the intent.

**Happyjew**

Also, the Doom of Malan'tai can easily wipe out a 10 000+ point Eldar army. By itself.

**Slagmar**

Ostrakon wrote:
Lobukia wrote:No, target means they can fire and therefore wound/slay. Ruling lawyering to say a rule/unit/weapon can't work is just silly (not saying you are, but others will and soon).

If "reading the rules" now falls into the "rules lawyering" category, why even bother? Might as well make gak up as we go along.

Its common sense when it comes to how things may not fit exactly with a new set of rules there will be some wording issues. When a weapon specifically says it can shoot as something without line of sight do you think the intent of GW was the weapon can't wound then? What would be the point of even including that information in the weapon description? Obviously they missed that in the rules but the spirit of the game would allow it.

As the OP is looking for RAW then yes it would not wound as per RAW, but I'd hate to be the guy to try and enforce that, and i seriously doubt any TO would enforce it.

**maxcarrion**

Slagmar wrote:
Ostrakon wrote:
Lobukia wrote:No, target means they can fire and therefore wound/slay. Ruling lawyering to say a rule/unit/weapon can't work is just silly (not saying you are, but others will and soon).

If "reading the rules" now falls into the "rules lawyering" category, why even bother? Might as well make gak up as we go along.

Its common sense when it comes to how things may not fit exactly with a new set of rules there will be some wording issues. When a weapon specifically says it can shoot as something without line of sight do you think the intent of GW was the weapon can't wound then? What would be the point of even including that information in the weapon description? Obviously they missed that in the rules but the spirit of the game would allow it.

As the OP is looking for RAW then yes it would not wound as per RAW, but I'd hate to be the guy to try and enforce that, and i seriously doubt any TO would enforce it.

I agree completely with this

**maceria**

Well, you should also look at the rule for the SMS regarding cover saves. I believe it is in the FAQ. Again, it doesn't specifically say you can wound targets you cannot see, but does specify rules for determining cover saves.

Honestly, given that the shooting order is defined as to hit -> to wound -> saves, and exception to "cannot target out of LOS" is already given, and since there is no rule stating that a weapon that hits cannot wound models out of LOS (it is stated that you cannot target models out of LOS), then I don't really see how RAW does work for this weapon.

To recap:
Rule: you cannot target units out of LOS.
Exception: the SMS can.
Rule: after rolling to hit, you roll to wound, then saves.
Exception: none.

**rigeld2**

maceria wrote:Well, you should also look at the rule for the SMS regarding cover saves. I believe it is in the FAQ. Again, it doesn't specifically say you can wound targets you cannot see, but does specify rules for determining cover saves.

Honestly, given that the shooting order is defined as to hit -> to wound -> saves, and exception to "cannot target out of LOS" is already given, and since there is no rule stating that a weapon that hits cannot wound models out of LOS (it is stated that you cannot target models out of LOS), then I don't really see how RAW does work for this weapon.

To recap:
Rule: you cannot target units out of LOS.
Exception: the SMS can.
Rule: after rolling to hit, you roll to wound, then saves.
Exception: none.

You're missing the fact that in addition to not being able to target out of LoS, you cannot wound models out of LoS.

**maxcarrion**

Yeah, I mean it's very obvious that SMS are meant to be able to kill units out of LOS, the RAW say you can't but if anyone tried to pull that on me, even in a tourney, I'd laugh in his face and possibly slap him about a bit.

Usually in these threads we try and sort our what RAW says, this time it's clear what RAW says, it's also clear what RAW is "supposed" to mean and clear that they're different so I would definately play situations like this and impaler cannons as being able to kill regardless of LOS every time.

**Ostrakon**

maxcarrion wrote:Yeah, I mean it's very obvious that SMS are meant to be able to kill units out of LOS, the RAW say you can't but if anyone tried to pull that on me, even in a tourney, I'd laugh in his face and possibly slap him about a bit.

Usually in these threads we try and sort our what RAW says, this time it's clear what RAW says, it's also clear what RAW is "supposed" to mean and clear that they're different so I would definately play situations like this and impaler cannons as being able to kill regardless of LOS every time.

Internet tough RAI...

It's not clear what RAW is 'supposed to mean'. RAW is painfully clear here.

RAI is a different matter entirely. Since there's an actual precedent here I'd agree that RAI is that the SMS can smack things out of LOS. But that isn't RAW, nor is it what 'RAW is supposed to be.' We don't really know for certain if they intended for whatever reason for the SMS to be nonfunctional. Target splitting got eradicated too so there might be precendent there.

Too often people find holes or mistakes in the rules and confuse themselves with the designers.

**Lt.Soundwave**

Xzerios wrote:The rules for templates covers this. As its an advanced rule, it takes precedence over the normal rules for firing LoS. Wounds caused by the blast are still removed per the normal rules of removing models in the shooting phase (closest to the firing model).

Same issue arouse when talking about the Tesla Destructor's 'Ark' special rule from the Necron Codex.

Except the rules for templates only apply to templates. The SMS is NOT a template weapon

As others have pointed out by RAW it doesnt work anymore. Clearly however, thats not how people will play it. Just another example of an aging codex in a modern world.

**HoverBoy**

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Just another example of an aging codex in a modern world.

Except GW are so derpy they have the same issue with their newest codex too (Astral Aim).

**Lt.Soundwave**

Nothing new, they really ought to focus on a more expansive digital distribution model.

Least then they could update more often...well at least they could claim they could whilst still maintaining the status quo.

**Pottsey**

Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Xzerios wrote:The rules for templates covers this. As its an advanced rule, it takes precedence over the normal rules for firing LoS. Wounds caused by the blast are still removed per the normal rules of removing models in the shooting phase (closest to the firing model).

Same issue arouse when talking about the Tesla Destructor's 'Ark' special rule from the Necron Codex.

Except the rules for templates only apply to templates. The SMS is NOT a template weapon

As others have pointed out by RAW it doesnt work anymore. Clearly however, thats not how people will play it. Just another example of an aging codex in a modern world.

That is not what raw says. Anything that ignores LOS can see everything within range otherwise you could never target it in 5th or 6th. Ignore LOS means you do not draw a line of sight to see and shoot and instead see everything within the set range. Los determines what you cannot see, if you ignore LOS there is nothing you cannot see. So you can cause wounds.

**cowmonaut**

Pottsey wrote:That is not what raw says. Anything that ignores LOS can see everything within range otherwise you could never target it in 5th or 6th. Ignore LOS means you do not draw a line of sight to see and shoot and instead see everything within the set range. Los determines what you cannot see, if you ignore LOS there is nothing you cannot see. So you can cause wounds.

This. If your unit is ignoring the rules for Line of Sight, it is ignoring all of them.

"The smart missile system can be fired at any target in range regardless of whether there is line of sight to it or not."

How the above can be twisted to mean anything other than "ignores LOS" is beyond me. RAI is pretty clear. RAW, well that gets ugly. A very strict and literal reading shows its only for the "To Hit". A looser reading shows that the sentence means "ignores LOS" so you'd ignore all instances of where its a problem.

Given it and multiple other things that don't work without assuming you always ignore LOS on weapons that ignore LOS to target, I'd say RAI is the way to go here.

**SalamanderMarine**

I think the simple way to sum it up is that GW made a mistake on the FAQ's and although technically the cant wound if you stop someone using SMS or HG properly you are just a poor sportsman, besides t'au and nids aren't exactly that great anyway they need all they can get.

**Lt.Soundwave**

RAI is the definite route to go. That wasnt the question stated in the threads title however.

**katfude**

...where in the rules does it say ANYTHING about not being able to wound something out of LOS? Page number, please.

**maxcarrion**

pg 16 under the heading "Out Of Sight"

**katfude**

Thank you.