Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If a psyker casts Terrify on a unit locked in combat and that unit fails its morale check. Will it get swept as normal ?

If yes, what actions can the unit that swept it take that turn?

Retracted until I can learn to read.

Maledictions on page 68 state they can affect units locked in CC. Is there somewhere else it is denied ?

Fragile wrote:Maledictions on page 68 state they can affect units locked in CC. Is there somewhere else it is denied ?

Wow, I read that wrong. My mistake...

I would say that in light of that you would get to do a SA if you were in combat with them when you cast Terrify and they fail their Leadership test. They are falling back from combat so SA is allowed.

I want to say no, because a sweeping advance is a direct trigger to winning an assault and the loser failing morale. This is simply a LD check with a special rule stating the unit falls back upon failure. There was no combat, meaning no winner/loser, meaning no fall back check, meaning no sweeping advance.

Just my first look analysis.

Ok, breaking this down a bit.

Terrify states that a unit must take a Morale Check.

Morale check.. Pg 30. Units make a Fall Back move immediately on failing a Morale Check.

Sweeping Advance. pg 26. When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a sweeping advance, attempting to cut down their fleeing foes.

Thats what I found so far.

J Mac wrote:I want to say no, because a sweeping advance is a direct trigger to winning an assault and the loser failing morale. This is simply a LD check with a special rule stating the unit falls back upon failure. There was no combat, meaning no winner/loser, meaning no fall back check, meaning no sweeping advance.

Just my first look analysis.

But it is not a Leadership test that makes them fall back, it is a Morale check. When they fail a Morale check they Fall Back. When they Fall Back from combat, even though the combat isn't the trigger, they are still falling back from combat, triggering a SA.

Ok, now assuming that they do Sweep, what actions can the unit that was in combat do this turn ? Consolidate? Move? Shoot? etc..

Then who is the winner and who is the loser? Who rolls for the sweeping advance? Just because you fall back doesn't mean it triggers a sweeping advance roll. Similarly, if a blast weapon scattered onto a combat and casualties were taken cause a morale check, then a sweeping advance is triggered then too?

4 questions that need to be answered, I could go get my book but george michael is on stage at the olympics and I want to see if he will crash a car into anyone.

Does this power allow you to effect a unit in cc?
Does the moral check happen in the assault phase?
Do units have any express permission to fall back out of combat or leave it for any reason without a special rule?
Does this count as a special rule to allow you to leave combat?

I am unaware of any case outside special rules that a unit can leave combat.
Since you cannot both fall back from cc and be SA, if this rule causes you to break then you'll still have to make the initiative check.

HA! I got the trump card...

Sweeping advances happen in the assault phase, how could you cast this malediction in the assault phase?

liturgies of blood wrote:4 questions that need to be answered, I could go get my book but george michael is on stage at the olympics and I want to see if he will crash a car into anyone.

Does this power allow you to effect a unit in cc?
Does the moral check happen in the assault phase?
Do units have any express permission to fall back out of combat or leave it for any reason without a special rule?
Does this count as a special rule to allow you to leave combat?

I am unaware of any case outside special rules that a unit can leave combat.
Since you cannot both fall back from cc and be SA, if this rule causes you to break then you'll still have to make the initiative check.

1. Yes, it is a Malediction which specifically says can effect units locked in combat.
2. No, the Morale check happens in the movement phase, which is when Maledictions are cast. And according to the Fall Back rules you Fall Back immediately after you fail your Morale check.
3. No, they only way to get out of being locked in combat (that I know of without a codex special rule) is Hit and Run and Falling Back.
4. Yes, it forces a Morale check which would cause you to Fall Back if failed so it meets the conditions for allowing the unit to escape combat.

The rules for Sweeping Advances don't say it can only happen in the Assault Phase. It simply says when a unit Falls Back from combat. They are in combat and Falling Back. That triggers a SA by the SA rules.

Sweeping advance rules listed under the assault phase isn't good enough for you?

Nope. It is listed in the Assault Phase section because generally it is only allowed in that phase. This is a strange situation that doesn't fit the standard mold so we have to read the rules for what they are. If you Fall Back from combat you risk a SA. That is all the rule says.

Per the rule for Sweeping Advances, you would check to see if the unit was locked in combat first and that they are now falling back. If so, proceed.

RAW, its possible to do. Though, I do wonder if you would use the remaining rules after Sweeping Advances. I would have to say yes as that unit that just swept is no longer in combat... during the movement phase.

Could they then move ?

Well, after finishing up with the end of combat rules for the sweeping unit. I dont see anything preventing them from doing so. >_>

J Mac wrote:Sweeping advance rules listed under the assault phase isn't good enough for you?

By that logic, units that are forced to move outside of their movement phase (such as by Lash of Submission) can't because it isn't happening in the phase where it is described in the rulebook.

I'd say you can Sweep, the unit has failed a Leadership test and fallen back from combat.

Fragile wrote:Could they then move ?

Yes.

After dealing with the melee and testing for sweep, if you are eligible for it, then you consolidate from melee, then move normally.

The closest thing I can find in regards to this (and how I would play it) falls under Shooting Into & Out of Close Combat on page 28.
"Units that are locked in close combat do not take Morale checks..." Granted that this is in regards to shooting, however, I think it sets a precedent that while you could target a unit with Terrify, they are effectively immune.

That is interesting. Its specific to shooting, but I get the feeling that will be the way this goes.

Happyjew wrote:The closest thing I can find in regards to this (and how I would play it) falls under Shooting Into & Out of Close Combat on page 28.
"Units that are locked in close combat do not take Morale checks..." Granted that this is in regards to shooting, however, I think it sets a precedent that while you could target a unit with Terrify, they are effectively immune.

I don't have the book on me right now so I can't check, but it's been stated that this power specifically says it can be used against targets in melee.

Well the power also removes fearless for the rest of the turn, so while it might not force a morale check, it would still have a function in by giveing your unit a chance of routeing the target in the following assualt. (assumeing another fearlesss unit ofc.)

Captain Antivas wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:4 questions that need to be answered, I could go get my book but george michael is on stage at the olympics and I want to see if he will crash a car into anyone.

Does this power allow you to effect a unit in cc?
Does the moral check happen in the assault phase?
Do units have any express permission to fall back out of combat or leave it for any reason without a special rule?
Does this count as a special rule to allow you to leave combat?

I am unaware of any case outside special rules that a unit can leave combat.
Since you cannot both fall back from cc and be SA, if this rule causes you to break then you'll still have to make the initiative check.

1. Yes, it is a Malediction which specifically says can effect units locked in combat.
2. No, the Morale check happens in the movement phase, which is when Maledictions are cast. And according to the Fall Back rules you Fall Back immediately after you fail your Morale check.
3. No, they only way to get out of being locked in combat (that I know of without a codex special rule) is Hit and Run and Falling Back.
4. Yes, it forces a Morale check which would cause you to Fall Back if failed so it meets the conditions for allowing the unit to escape combat.

The rules for Sweeping Advances don't say it can only happen in the Assault Phase. It simply says when a unit Falls Back from combat. They are in combat and Falling Back. That triggers a SA by the SA rules.

I agree all the way up to the triggering of the SA

Fragile wrote:Ok, breaking this down a bit.

Terrify states that a unit must take a Morale Check.

Morale check.. Pg 30. Units make a Fall Back move immediately on failing a Morale Check.

Sweeping Advance. pg 26. When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a sweeping advance, attempting to cut down their fleeing foes.

Thats what I found so far.

Per this it triggers an SA FOR THE VICTORS. There are no victors, so no SA

The first sentence of Sweeping Advances has no conditional context of that sort. Just that if a fall back from combat is preformed, you my try to Sweeping Advance the unit.

Xzerios wrote:The first sentence of Sweeping Advances has no conditional context of that sort. Just that if a fall back from combat is preformed, you my try to Sweeping Advance the unit.

Who is the "you" specified to be - (don't have my rule book in front of me) - if it is opposing models or enemy units - I think you would get the SA, if it is Winning units than not.

SA says this:

"When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a
Sweeping Advance..."

and a little later on:
"When a Sweeping Advance is performed, both the unit falling back and the winning unit roll a D6 and add their unmodified Initiative to the result."

Victors in the sentence is an adjective, not the requirement to trigger the Sweeping Advance. Same applies throughout the entirety of the rule.

The victor/winning unit is the one not falling back.