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If there is a wagon with burna's in it. I charge my CCB into assault with it. The burna's can't hurt AV 13, so they do not overwatch. The CCB moves into base with the wagon. Then I declare my scarabs are charging at the wagon, can the burna's overwatch the scarabs?

The reason I ask, the CCB can't be locked in cc so are the burna's considered to be in CC?

Thanks

Due to the wording of Overwatch (can only fire Overwatch once per turn) it implies you are not actually locked into combat until the Fight sub-phase. AS such, if you do not try to raost the CCB, you can still roast the scarabs.

Yes, you can overwatch the scarabs if the same actual assault phase and overwatch hasn't been used prior in the same assault phase.

Happyjew is spot on.

Even if they're in base-to-base with another enemy? Are you sure?

You can only use 1 overwatch a turn (with that unit). So your fine there. You cannot use overwatch locked in CC, however a vehicle cannot be locked in CC so your good there too. (pg 76)

Due to the wording of Overwatch (can only fire Overwatch once per turn) it implies you are not actually locked into combat until the Fight sub-phase. AS such, if you do not try to raost the CCB, you can still roast the scarabs.

Units in BTB contact are locked in combat so could not shoot at a a second unit charging them.


Edit for clarity.

Happyjew wrote:Due to the wording of Overwatch (can only fire Overwatch once per turn) it implies you are not actually locked into combat until the Fight sub-phase.

Fragile wrote: You can only use 1 overwatch a turn. So your fine there.

The restriction on only firing Overwatch once per turn is on units being charged.

"Also note that a unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn."

The given example is burnas in a wagon. Since the embarked unit is never locked in combat, it can Overwatch against every assaulting unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
The given example is burnas in a wagon. Since the embarked unit is never locked in combat, it can Overwatch against every assaulting unit.

No, they are still restricted to 1 overwatch a turn.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, they are still restricted to 1 overwatch a turn.

I do not believe the embarked unit is restricted to only firing once. Page 21, "Also note that a unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn."

Please note the underlined part. An embarked unit is never the unit being charged, the vehicle is.

Hmmmm, maybe. I still wouldn't try and claim it except in the most competitive of environments.

Well by strict RAW, that would appear to be correct, however, I think this falls into poor wording again and I dont think GW would change such a fundamental rule for units in a transport without clarifying that in the text.

I suppose you could justify it by saying the models in the transport are in a more secure firing position and so are able to fire more then once at charging enemies/are desperate to not die in a steel coffin and so defend it with greater vigor.

Lol, well I could justify lots of things in the rules Whether they are correct or not is a different story.

You should remember that all charge moves are done at the same time. So there is no problem with burnas burning the scarabs.

 pizzaguardian wrote:
You should remember that all charge moves are done at the same time. So there is no problem with burnas burning the scarabs.

Not in 6th.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
You should remember that all charge moves are done at the same time. So there is no problem with burnas burning the scarabs.

Not in 6th.

There is nothing I have seen to back that up. Otherwise two squads that assault one enemy squad would hit at different times.

Actually pg.20

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve overwatch
3. Roll charge range
4. Charge move
5. Declare next charge

So each charge is done separately. That's my issue. However the big question is, can the burna's overwatch when the CCB is in base with the wagon?

Thanks again

 knightpredator wrote:
Actually pg.20

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve overwatch
3. Roll charge range
4. Charge move
5. Declare next charge

So each charge is done separately. That's my issue. However the big question is, can the burna's overwatch when the CCB is in base with the wagon?

Thanks again

That's been the way since 3rd ed (bar the overwatch), shooting happens at the same time so why don't charges?

Because shooting *doesn't* happen at the same time. One unit shoots, then the next unit shoots.

Same with Charges.

coredump wrote:
Because shooting *doesn't* happen at the same time. One unit shoots, then the next unit shoots.

Same with Charges.

Actually, done in the "charge sub phase" all at once until complete. brb p. 22 right column 4th para. Than move on to fight phase.

 Byte wrote:

coredump wrote:
Because shooting *doesn't* happen at the same time. One unit shoots, then the next unit shoots.

Same with Charges.

Actually, done in the "charge sub phase" all at once until complete. brb p. 22 right column 4th para. Than move on to fight phase.

It doesn't say that. It says in the 3rd paragraph "Once all the models in a charging unit have moved, the player can choose another unit and declare another charge if he wishes." Meaning you finish with one charge then do another. One at a time.

Then the 4th paragraph says that after all charges have been completed you fight. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 Byte wrote:

coredump wrote:
Because shooting *doesn't* happen at the same time. One unit shoots, then the next unit shoots.

Same with Charges.

Actually, done in the "charge sub phase" all at once until complete. brb p. 22 right column 4th para. Than move on to fight phase.

It doesn't say that. It says in the 3rd paragraph "Once all the models in a charging unit have moved, the player can choose another unit and declare another charge if he wishes." Meaning you finish with one charge then do another. One at a time.

Then the 4th paragraph says that after all charges have been completed you fight. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

My point is, they aren't locked until the fight phase. So as long as overwatch isn't used on the first charging unit, the until can overwatch on the second charging unit.

Byte wrote:
My point is, they aren't locked until the fight phase. So as long as overwatch isn't used on the first charging unit, the until can overwatch on the second charging unit.

Pg 23. Under "Who can Fight".
Units that have one or more models in Base contact with enemies are locked in combat.

That means once you charge and have a model in BtB (meaning not a failed charge) you are locked in combat and the unit being charged can not fire Overwatch.

It then goes and states what a locked unit can or can not do. It also gives the definition of being engaged. Being locked in combat and being engaged are different things.

EDIT: To the question at hand. Yes the burnas can fire at the scarabs because they are not locked in combat.

Do note that P.23 covers the Fight sub-phase, and not the Charge Sub-phase.

Charges happen in the Charge Sub-phase.

If they were to adhere to Pg 23. Under "Who can Fight" then once the initial model makes contact they could no longer move except for pile in moves, which is not true.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do note that P.23 covers the Fight sub-phase, and not the Charge Sub-phase.

Charges happen in the Charge Sub-phase.

If they were to adhere to Pg 23. Under "Who can Fight" then once the initial model makes contact they could no longer move except for pile in moves, which is not true.

Being locked in combat is a definition. It just happens to be defined in the Fight-sub phase. If you look at several other place in the book it refers to pg 23 for the definition of Locked in Combat. It is a global definition and not limited to the fight sub-phase. Movement( Moving and Close Combat pg 10) , Shooting (Who can shoot pg 12) and Assault (Declaring Charge pg 20) all refer to the definition of being locked in combat. In the index the rules for Locked in Combat are given as being on pg 23. EDIT: and pg 28, but that refers specifically to not being able to shoot into a close combat.

And the permission to move the rest of the unit after the Initial Charger is given on pg 21 under "Move Initial Charger". Other wise you would be right. Once the first model makes contact they would be locked and not able to move without that specific permission to move the rest of the unit.

Cant trumps Must.

P.23 trumps P.21

Or they are not locked in CC until the fight sub-phase.

Either way.

No, a unit becomes locked in combat when the charge move places the charging unit in BTB. Gloom spelled it out pretty clearly. Your argument that once a unit is locked in combat it cannot move other than pile in is immaterial to the charge move which locked in in combat.

Charge move locks it in CC. Once in CC, it cannot further move...etc.. until CC is resolved.

Fragile wrote:
No, a unit becomes locked in combat when the charge move places the charging unit in BTB. Gloom spelled it out pretty clearly. Your argument that once a unit is locked in combat it cannot move other than pile in is immaterial to the charge move which locked in in combat.

Charge move locks it in CC. Once in CC, it cannot further move...etc.. until CC is resolved.

Right, the Charge move locks it in CC.

So Either

1) Once the initial charger makes base contact it is locked in combat and no other model from the unit can move, since now the unit cant move and Cant trumps Must.

Or

2) They make the charge move as normal because they are not locked in CC until the fight sub-phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:
1) Once the initial charger makes base contact it is locked in combat and no other model from the unit can move, since now the unit cant move and Cant trumps Must.

Page reference for this? I can't see anything to suggest that a model can't charge if his unit is already locked in combat. The closest I can find is p20, which says that a unit can't declare a charge if the unit is already locked, but by the time the unit is locked the charge has already begun so this doesn't change anything.

I think the rules are pretty clear, that once you move into b2b with the enemy unit, they are locked in combat. Therefore, as previously stated, once you get into base to base in the charge sub phase, they can no longer fire overwatch. It makes you choose, do I overwatch the squad of termagants who might not make it in, or do I save it for the genestealers in case the gants roll like crap.