Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just a quick, straightforward question for future references

There's this Grey Knight player at my FLGS who uses the defense line a lot and is quite annoying,
My quick question is going by off the BGB can my Doomscythe shoot over the defense line at his units without granting him the cover save?
From what I gather I trace the shot from the death ray out 12 inches the trace the death line 3D6 in a straight line down his gun line at an angle from the barrel/gem thing and thus pass over the defense line instead of going through it?

Is this right or does GW really want people to just camp behind these things because they are cheap and easy to make?

He will get a cover save if the unit is obscured. That's all there is to that. But why fight with him? You have the advantage of speed and maneuverability. Flank the defense line!

Remember, ONLY the models who are actually obscured get the cover save, there is no more global cover for majority obscured - model saves are based on LOS, so check that out. Additionally, you can always Focus Fire to specifically target those models not in cover, in which case he won't get cover saves - but you won't be able to kill those that are in cover.

 Riddick40k wrote:
Just a quick, straightforward question for future references

There's this Grey Knight player at my FLGS who uses the defense line a lot and is quite annoying,
My quick question is going by off the BGB can my Doomscythe shoot over the defense line at his units without granting him the cover save?
From what I gather I trace the shot from the death ray out 12 inches the trace the death line 3D6 in a straight line down his gun line at an angle from the barrel/gem thing and thus pass over the defense line instead of going through it?

Is this right or does GW really want people to just camp behind these things because they are cheap and easy to make?

Just out of curiosity, what kind of unit does he use to "camp" with behind the defense line?

 Riddick40k wrote:

Is this right or does GW really want people to just camp behind these things because they are cheap and easy to make?

This isn't Call of Duty....forming a gun line behind cover is not only a perfectly viable tactic, its often the smart thing to do, especially if holding an objective. All of the fortifications were meant to be "camped" in, why buy them otherwise?

I miss being able to put a N00b Tube on my Space marine captains Master Crafted Bolter! But no really whats the problem here? Just hit him in the side and hit ALL the models behind the defence line and laugh as he waits for the respawn!

 Stoff3 wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:
Just a quick, straightforward question for future references

There's this Grey Knight player at my FLGS who uses the defense line a lot and is quite annoying,
My quick question is going by off the BGB can my Doomscythe shoot over the defense line at his units without granting him the cover save?
From what I gather I trace the shot from the death ray out 12 inches the trace the death line 3D6 in a straight line down his gun line at an angle from the barrel/gem thing and thus pass over the defense line instead of going through it?

Is this right or does GW really want people to just camp behind these things because they are cheap and easy to make?

Just out of curiosity, what kind of unit does he use to "camp" with behind the defense line?

He plays a really shooty lists, he has 5 psybacks 3 Rifleman, a 10 man Terminator Squad with 2 psycannons, coteaz, 2 10 man intercepted Squads with 2 psycannons, and everything that can has Psybolt ammo, and also 4 man units of warrior henchman with bolters in each razorback its quite ridiculous

And he camps with all of it until I get close then he shunts behind shunts behind me and wrecks shop...

Doesnt help either he rolls aboves 4's 75% of the time using this weird flick of the wrist... And FYI in my store we all agree he is TFG...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kharrak wrote:
Remember, ONLY the models who are actually obscured get the cover save, there is no more global cover for majority obscured - model saves are based on LOS, so check that out. Additionally, you can always Focus Fire to specifically target those models not in cover, in which case he won't get cover saves - but you won't be able to kill those that are in cover.

Focuss Fire it shall be, just wish it didn't have to be this way...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
He will get a cover save if the unit is obscured. That's all there is to that. But why fight with him? You have the advantage of speed and maneuverability. Flank the defense line!

Good thing I have 2 now that can flank on both sides

 Riddick40k wrote:
Doesnt help either he rolls aboves 4's 75% of the time using this weird flick of the wrist... And FYI in my store we all agree he is TFG...

I cannot stand people who do stuff like this.

I know several people who have a specific 'technique' of rolling that they think gets them better results. Even though it's almost certainly nonsense, it's still seems incredibly poor sport to genuinely 'try' and roll higher, rather than 'hope' to roll high. If it actually works, you're basically cheating. If it doesn't work, you're still kind of a douche for trying.

In my most humblest of opinions, of course...

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:
Doesnt help either he rolls aboves 4's 75% of the time using this weird flick of the wrist... And FYI in my store we all agree he is TFG...

I cannot stand people who do stuff like this.

I know several people who have a specific 'technique' of rolling that they think gets them better results. Even though it's almost certainly nonsense, it's still seems incredibly poor sport to genuinely 'try' and roll higher, rather than 'hope' to roll high. If it actually works, you're basically cheating. If it doesn't work, you're still kind of a douche for trying.

In my most humblest of opinions, of course...

DoW

I agree, though sometimes if I have some crazy save to make in which it means life or death for an HQ for example. Sometimes I rub my dice and talk to it (all in good fun, my friends usually laugh at me) and let it fly, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, I always assume the 'emprah' has better plans for the marine's soul (like making use of it to sustain his booty sitting on that throne of his). Again though, I do agree with you, I've played many table tops over the years and some people seem to have a system of rolling that is lame (and as you pointed out in some cases, cheating).

In regards to the defense line, as they said above flanking works and so do flamers (I think Necrons have a few options for that, though I think they are royal court upgrades?). Alternatively you could tie those shooty units up with Wraiths, they are pretty tanky.

As for general tactics for fighting the GK, aren't their weapons range 24ish? could just use your range to shoot him to death in return? The Necron transports are AV13, don't think it'll be 'easy' for his basic weapons to outright smash that, whilst your units can certainly glance his vehicles to death and put some wounds into his models to boot.

Alternatively, no one likes playing against opponents that suck the fun out of the game. If you and the guys that play with him have issues with his army or tactics and feel it is consistently (everyone has a game here and there where they just 'own') unsporting and ultimately more of a headache than a satisfying use of your time, just don't play with him. If he complains about it, too bad for him, if he tries to change it up a bit to encourage fun games, then have at it. Just my two cents anyways.

(Hope that helps)

Just focus fire the models without cover.

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:
Doesnt help either he rolls aboves 4's 75% of the time using this weird flick of the wrist... And FYI in my store we all agree he is TFG...

I cannot stand people who do stuff like this.

I know several people who have a specific 'technique' of rolling that they think gets them better results. Even though it's almost certainly nonsense, it's still seems incredibly poor sport to genuinely 'try' and roll higher, rather than 'hope' to roll high. If it actually works, you're basically cheating. If it doesn't work, you're still kind of a douche for trying.

In my most humblest of opinions, of course...

DoW

It actually works (not 100% of the time obviously, but it does)
It's harder to do with more than one die though. It is also the reason why you in many games have a dice cup.
Basically, you can tilt the numbers in your favour, if you always roll the same way, and make sure you hold the die with the same number up. It's then quite reasonable that you will get more of a certain roll than the average allows.

There is also the fact that all dice used in anything but perfect casino circumstances (and certainly every die with rounded corners) are imperfect. You can test them by rolling one die a few thousand times and seeing what number it favours, then use it for rolling sixes or whatever.

This is just the tip of the iceberg though, and there is a whole science to all of this. And of course it is cheating. The roll isn't meant to be skill based in warhammer. The roll is there to give the game randomness.

It definitely is cheating (or attempted cheating) when someone roll,s like that. He'd do that to me for one game and out comes the dice tower.

I find the best solution in situations like that is to ask to use his dice. If he refuses, it's fair to call him on nefarious behavior.

I have certain dice that I believe are luckier for certain types of rolls, and my response to anyone who accuses me of impropriety is to offer to let them use those same dice for their rolls of equal type.

Of course, I also dont believe that I can produce a 6 at will. I'm superstitious, not magical.

ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:

Is this right or does GW really want people to just camp behind these things because they are cheap and easy to make?

This isn't Call of Duty....forming a gun line behind cover is not only a perfectly viable tactic, its often the smart thing to do, especially if holding an objective. All of the fortifications were meant to be "camped" in, why buy them otherwise?

Exalted!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Riddick40k wrote:
Doesnt help either he rolls aboves 4's 75% of the time using this weird flick of the wrist... And FYI in my store we all agree he is TFG...

I cannot stand people who do stuff like this.

I know several people who have a specific 'technique' of rolling that they think gets them better results. Even though it's almost certainly nonsense, it's still seems incredibly poor sport to genuinely 'try' and roll higher, rather than 'hope' to roll high. If it actually works, you're basically cheating. If it doesn't work, you're still kind of a douche for trying.

I'm totally 100% in agreement with you.