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This YMDC is a spin-off from this thread.

Basically, people are making the argument that it's possible to keep a nob away from a challenge merely by keeping him outside of 3" from the enemy. The argument goes that because the nob is not engaged (not in base contact with an enemy model, or within 2" of one that is), the nob therefore is ineligible to accept a challenge.

If this is true, though, then nobody can challenge anymore. This is because challenges happen at the very beginning of the fight phase. Before hammer. Before walking down the initiative latter. Before everything. If you look, though, you will notice that a model does not check to see if it is engaged or not until AFTER its pile-in move. Which happens at its initiative phase. Which is after when challenges happen.

Therefore, by this logic, nobody is actually engaged at the beginning of the fight phase (you won't know if they are or not until later), and thus nobody can ever issue or receive a challenge.

Personally, I think this is ridiculous. The phrase "characters who cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with enemy models) can't participate in a challenge" to me places a restriction against those who can't ever fight, such as being WS0, or being subject to some special rule, REGARDLESS of if they are engaged or not, rather than those who cannot fight BECAUSE they are not engaged. Otherwise you get the above total inability to have challenges.

Furthermore, it doesn't make sense to have who can give or accept a challenge be restricted by how far models are away from each other when the challenge rules say that once the challenge happens, you should move models around so that they are in base contact with each other. As such, the way we've been playing it at my FLGS is that anybody who is ever capable of fighting can issue a challenge, and if someone accepts, then the two just zoom over next to each other to fight.

Because taking one particular view of a single rule that invalidates the entire section of the rules its in seems silly.

 Ailaros wrote:
This YMDC is a spin-off from this thread.



If this is true, though, then nobody can challenge anymore. This is because challenges happen at the very beginning of the fight phase. Before hammer. Before walking down the initiative latter. Before everything. If you look, though, you will notice that a model does not check to see if it is engaged or not until AFTER its pile-in move. Which happens at its initiative phase. Which is after when challenges happen.

You're wrong, see page 428-429

1. Pick one of your units and declare which enem.y unit it
wishes to charge.
2. Each enem.yunit nom.inated as a target of a charge can
now resolve its Overwatch fire (see page 21).
3. Roll the charge range for the unit.
4. Choose a combat to resolve
5. Declare a challenge if you wish (see page 64).
6. Starting at Initiative step 10, count down through the
steps towards 1 until you reach an Initiative value that
one or more participants not involved in a challenge
have (see page 22).
etc

Just because they defined the term "engaged" at that section does not mean that is the only time you check if you are engaged. Once you have completed your charge move the unit is locked in combat and your models are engaged.

Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.


A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
• During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or
more enemy models.
• During its Initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly
model in base contac

It must fight if when you get to the initiative step they are engaged. They are engaged if they are: 1) in base contact with a model, or 2) within 2" of a friendly model in base contact. There are two things stated by that quote: 1) models must fight if they are engaged, and 2) defines what engaged means.

Nope. You have to go all the way to page 23 to see "A model is engaged and can fight if..." Which is well into the rules of the fight sub-phase. Furthermore, both of the qualifications for being engaged begin if "during its initiative step".

A model with I3 has to wait to see if it is engaged until the I3 step, way too late after challenges are issued.

Like I said, just because that is where they defined is does not mean that is they only place you can check for being engaged.

Challenges are only issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, which is before pile in moves. Per the challenge rules, a model which is not engaged cannot participate in a challenge. First three para of page 64.

So on the initial charge, the only models which can participate in a challenge are those which are in base contact with an enemy model, or within 2" of a friendly model which is in base contact with an enemy model.

It's really simple, and Ailaros' initial conclusion is absurd.

Where the rulebook defines certain rules in not the only place in the game they are used.

Mannahnin wrote:So on the initial charge, the only models which can participate in a challenge are those which are in base contact with an enemy model, or within 2" of a friendly model which is in base contact with an enemy model.

Why can they challenge? They're not engaged.

A model is only considered to be engaged at its initiative step. I think you're getting 5th ed rules confused with 6th. If you think of engagement as something that can exist outside of an initiative step, you're just not reading the rule.

Why don't you try reading page 64?

I have, several times.

 Ailaros wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:So on the initial charge, the only models which can participate in a challenge are those which are in base contact with an enemy model, or within 2" of a friendly model which is in base contact with an enemy model.

Why can they challenge? They're not engaged.

A model is only considered to be engaged at its initiative step. I think you're getting 5th ed rules confused with 6th. If you think of engagement as something that can exist outside of an initiative step, you're just not reading the rule.

You are being obtuse, seemingly on purpose. Like I said, it is defined there, but once you meet the criteria you are engaged. Not only outside of the initiative step. I realize you don't want people to be able to avoid challenges (as evidenced by your initial post) but they can avoid the challenge with clever placement of their models.

 Ailaros wrote:
I have, several times.

Apparently not. The first paragraph tells you when a challenge can be issued (which is before pile in moves happen), and the last sentence of the third para makes clear that characters who are not engaged at that time are not eligible to participate in a challenge.

Captain Antivas wrote:once you meet the criteria you are engaged.

I agree, actually.

Let's say that you're in base to base contact with an opponent in assault. Are you engaged? Well, let's see what the criteria are:

A model is engaged in close combat and must fight if:

- During its initiative step... blah blah.

- During its initiative step... blah blah.

Okay, so the criteria for being engaged are only met during your intitiative step. I guess the answer to the question of "are you engaged?" is met with "is it my initiative step?". If the answer is "yes", then you see if you are in base contact, etc. If the answer is "no, it's not my initiative step", then you fail to meet the criteria for being engaged.

If it is not the model's initiative step, a model can not be engaged, because the rules for being engaged are predicated on what initiative step it is.

Therefore, anything that happens outside of the initiative step ladder necessarily means that models are not engaged (unless there is a specific rule countermanding this, such as in close combat versus vehicles). As a model must be engaged in order to be able to issue or receive a challenge, and because nobody is actually engaged until their initiative phase, and because initiative phases come after challenges, therefore nobody is engaged at the time of challenges, and therefore nobody can ever issue or receive a challenge.

I think it's idiotic too, but if you're going to break the rules for challenges one way, I fail to see why you should break them in the way that most restricts challenges, rather than most allows them.

I don't think looking for interpretations which are broken is good practice in reading the rules.

Page 64 is quite clear about how challenges work. You can't use them as a way to teleport your character from the back of his unit to the front, if he wasn't in range to attack after assault moves were made. As a result of that rule, it's also possible to protect a character from being forced to accept or refuse a challenge, if he's sufficiently far back from the action after charge moves.

No, the criteria for being engaged is separate from the requirement to fight. Basic reading comprehension tells us this. Unless you are TRYING to make something difficult to make it seem like people are cheating because you don't like their strategy.

 Ailaros wrote:


If it is not the model's initiative step, a model can not be engaged, because the rules for being engaged are predicated on what initiative step it is.

By this logic you can move and shoot while in BtB with the enemy because you are not engaged or locked in combat with them during the movement and shooting phase because it is outside of the initiative step.

 Ailaros wrote:
This YMDC is a spin-off from this thread.

Basically, people are making the argument that it's possible to keep a nob away from a challenge merely by keeping him outside of 3" from the enemy. The argument goes that because the nob is not engaged (not in base contact with an enemy model, or within 2" of one that is), the nob therefore is ineligible to accept a challenge.

If they weren't entirely wrong, they might have a point. Unfortunately they're doing things the rules don't back up. It's quite easy to ignore these people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mannahnin wrote:
I don't think looking for interpretations which are broken is good practice in reading the rules.

Then why are you doing exactly that?

Page 64 has laid out the rules and requirements for challenges clearly. One of the restrictions is that a model can't participate in one if it's not engaged at the time the challenge is declared. This has a couple of obvious effects.

1. You can't put a character way in the back of your unit, charge them into combat, then have him declare a challenge and teleport to the front of the unit.
2. You can't put a character way in the back of a unit, then when the unit gets charged, accept a challenge with him (or declare one yourself) as a way of teleporting to the front where the action is.
3. You can put a character in the back as a way to avoid him getting into a challenge in the first round.

There's nothing broken about this.

It enhances verisimilitude by preventing Challenges being uses as a means of massive additional movement.

It creates tactical situations where a player can (for one turn, anyway) pretect their character from a challenge, and the other player can attempt to counter this by shooting the unit to kill the front models, thus putting the hiding character closer to the front, thus increasing the chance that he'll be engaged after charge moves are made.

It only generally lasts for one turn, anyway, as between init step pile-ins and end of combat pile-ins, the character will almost always wind up engaged by the end of the first round, and thus be eligible to be challenged in the following round of HtH.

Mannahnin wrote:Page 64 has laid out the rules and requirements for challenges clearly. One of the restrictions is that a model can't participate in one if it's not engaged at the time the challenge is declared.

Then challenges can never be declared, because nobody is ever engaged at the time that challenges are declared.

Mannahnin wrote:It enhances verisimilitude by preventing Challenges being uses as a means of massive additional movement.

... but it DOES create additional movement. If someone accepts a challenge, they get additional movement.

Captain Antivas wrote:No, the criteria for being engaged is separate from the requirement to fight. Basic reading comprehension tells us this.

Basic reading comprehension... Like the part that says "A model is engaged in close combat and must fight if:"

Right there, the part that defines what being engaged is...

 Ailaros wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Page 64 has laid out the rules and requirements for challenges clearly. One of the restrictions is that a model can't participate in one if it's not engaged at the time the challenge is declared.

Then challenges can never be declared, because nobody is ever engaged at the time that challenges are declared.

You become engaged on pg 21, during the charge move. last paragraph right side. "having engaged as many enemy models as possible."

engaged = b2b or within 2" of a b2b model.

Then at the beginning of the fight sub phase you issue challenges.

Then on pg 64, in order to offer or accept a challenge you must be able to strike blows, otherwise you can not challenge or accept.

As sirlynchmob said. You're engaged as soon as you move into contact or 2" of an enemy model.

Mannahnin wrote:As sirlynchmob said. You're engaged as soon as you move into contact or 2" of an enemy model.

Actually, you're engaged if DURING ITS INITIATIVE STEP, it's in base contact, or DURING ITS INITIATIVE STEP it's within 2" of a friendly model that's in base contact.

He quoted where the rules use the phrase engaged in discussing assault moves.

Your read makes the challenge rules nonfunctional. That usually is an indicator that something might be wrong with an interpretation.

 Ailaros wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:As sirlynchmob said. You're engaged as soon as you move into contact or 2" of an enemy model.

Actually, you're engaged if DURING ITS INITIATIVE STEP, it's in base contact, or DURING ITS INITIATIVE STEP it's within 2" of a friendly model that's in base contact.

Right, so when we play, on my turn, I'm going to walk my guys out of combat and rapid fire into you, right before I charge again.
The section you are quoting is telling you that you must fight, not that you are now official in melee. You don't have the option to not swing; which, would often be very useful.

-Matt

 Ailaros wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:As sirlynchmob said. You're engaged as soon as you move into contact or 2" of an enemy model.

Actually, you're engaged if DURING ITS INITIATIVE STEP, it's in base contact, or DURING ITS INITIATIVE STEP it's within 2" of a friendly model that's in base contact.

 Ailaros wrote:

Because taking one particular view of a single rule that invalidates the entire section of the rules its in seems silly.

You answered you own question here, and you forgot the headings "who can fight?" "a model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
That is to allow you to keep checking who is or is not engaged during each imitative step, unlike 5th where you just checked once at the beginning of the assault. Because a model can change states many times throughout an assault phase between engaged/unengaged. Which also leads to the situation of if you can't pile in and get back into B2B to engage, the assault ends and all remaining initiative steps are lost.

During your assault move, you are moving to engage as many models as possible. ergo after you've made your assault move the two units are locked in combat, and the assaulting unit has (pg 21) "engaged as many enemy models as possible"

And under challenges it is very clear that to issue or accept a challenge you must be engaged before you start working through the initiative steps..

If models aren't engaged because of some distance from the fight, they are free to walk around in their Movement Phase and also shoot, but not be shot at in return. This is painfully clearly not the intent.

Suck it up Nob, you can be challenged anywhere.

It sounds to me like challenges can still happen in the second round of a close combat. Meaning, if neither unit is destroyed or runs away, then it is very likely that both characters will be engaged in the subsequent assault phase. You can have a challenge then.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
If models aren't engaged because of some distance from the fight, they are free to walk around in their Movement Phase and also shoot, but not be shot at in return. This isn't painfully clearly not the intent.

Suck it up Nob, you can be challenged anywhere.

Nope, the two UNITS are still locked in combat, just some models in the unit are engaged, while other models in the unit are not engaged.

pg 23 & 28, you do have a rule book right?

so a nob can be in a unit locked in combat, unengaged in the combat, and therefore unable to accept challenges.

But if you really wanted to go that you always have to accept challenges, I could have endless fun forming a conga line with a unit of grots, challenge your HQ, and drag him back 3 feet or so into the middle of my army so I can single him out and get rid of him on my next turn.