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So a comment I made in the CHS suit thread made me think of an idea.

Small sprue plastic injection molded bits packs. Very straightforward:

5-10 items of a single type on a sprue that retails for $3-5 each.

Weapons like bolters or other standard issue would be 10 to a sprue.
Heads, shoulder pads, shields and so on would be 5 to a sprue.
Special weapons like Termie weapons would be 5 to a sprue.
Sets of 5 bases with molded matched details.

Heavy weapons packs with 4 or 5 various heavy weapons for about $8-10.

Now my idea is to offer original sculpts of course, and to offer items that work well for entire units at a time. So a set of helmets would all be closely similar to each other, and then have perhaps a separate sprue for character helmets/heads. So often in 3rd parties I see head packs where 1 or 2 of the sculpts are awesome, but you have to buy 10 to get those 2.

I'd use funding like kickstarter to cover costs for new molds, setting the goals to break even on design and startup, which would then allow kits sold after the funding to be offered at lower prices, since the hardware is paid off. In that same spirit, I'd have designs and artwork voted on by the customer base to see which designs are wanted so that people don't end up with the issue of having 3/5 items being wasted or unwanted.

Once that whole setup is moving, I'd open up production services to other companies that don't do injection molding, but have items that would benefit from it. This would allow those companies to offer popular items at lower prices with better/consistent quality. It would also save those companies man hours spent casting up items and allow them to focus on new designs.

Now bear with me that this is all a very rough idea, and the entire operational math on it hasn't been done by me yet. I'm mostly trying to flesh it out and get input on the core ideas.
A small injection molder doesn't run all that much money. A single machine can be run in a garage or other such small building, and doesn't require much intervention from an operator. So the real labor costs would be making molds, and then swapping them out when running other products. A single sprue can be pumped out in a few seconds, and the cost of HDPS is low enough that small sprue operational costs would be minimal.

For designs, I'd be hiring freelance sculptors as most small companies do, and then I'd be moving those designs into sprue design with a CAD like program.

So the major start up costs would be the molder, a CNC router to make the molds, a 3d scanner to transfer designs to digital format, and the payment for sculpts.

So if someone(read I) made such a company, what products or designs would you want to see? Get all manner of specific, and think of items that would have broad appeal if the price was right.

You're talking about making stuff for a niche segment of an already niche market so I don't know if it will be worthwhile to do this in plastic.

@ Breotan - You sig "2012: Money spent on models: $4399.68" scares me only because I hope I didn't surpass it.

@Aerethan - Assuming you got all funded and started up I'd like to see basic Astartes shoulder pads for Tactical (Up Arrow, Double Arrow), Assault ("X", Crossed Swords), and Devastator in the correct sized plastic that will match what I have right now. I'd buy a company's worth of squad identifying pads....as I'm sure others would too. Should be real easy to make.

Are you familiar with this blog, I know the owner posts here on dakka
http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2012/08/some-little-progress.html

the blog is an interesting read on the perils of garage level injection molding. spoiler alert injection molding machines may try to eat you alive.

Ken at Proxie Models is pretty much my inspiration for wanting to do this.

I do need to read the backlog of updates on his blog though.

sculpt some warrior like penguins...cast them-i'd totally buy those lol
or ponies, everypony loves ponies lol

As a bits company I will be straight up and say it's just not cost effective.

A lot will depend on the particulars...

I would probably skip the 3D scanner - especially if you are new to the process. While they can be a useful tool, they are more of a hassle for those who are just getting into things, as the output from a 3D scan isn't exactly directly useful data. Rather it is a vertex cloud that will need to be interpolated to create a 3D shape.

Regular 3D models - especially for bits items are easy enough to create, have a large field of artists to choose from, no need to deal with shipping and scale issues and are more readily broken down if need be.

On the cost effectiveness - it is a question of what you can do in house. If you have the spare cash (or get the spare cash through something like Kickstarter) to purchase the equipment for production and machining you reduce your overhead by a substantial amount. You still must account for wear on the machines...but most of those are designed to run for decades. Bits will need to be replaced and things like mold blanks will need to be purchased.

Aluminum blanks are relatively inexpensive and would be the way to go initially. Things like the SAR rifle from CHS would be an ideal candidate - especially given the simple mold which would be needed to create them. It wouldn't take much to design a steel safe mold for them (no undercuts or similar geometry to work around).

More complicated forms like a face would require more precise tooling and techniques in order to achieve the proper surface texture (it is pretty easy to make something like a gun barrel or shoulder pad smooth...you can define those mathematically with out an issue, a chin on the other hand is a lot of curves). Also, the nature of convex molds make them more costly and difficult to machine and engineer.

Normally for the organics, you will want to add an EDM machine to the mix as it allows you to refine the surface detail on a positive copy and use that to create your mold cavity.

So...if you managed to get the money sorted for the machinery and you placed a somewhat lower value to your time and you used 3D art created by yourself or someone who also didn't value their time that highly...you could make a good go at things.

A lot would depend on what you can get the mill and injection machine for to get started though. I have seen them go pretty cheap - and I have seen them go for fairly expensive. For something like this though - you might consider looking at the rapid prototype machines instead. Although they are not as automated as the big ones - you still are able to pump out custom plastic much faster than you could in resin. Most the custom Lego people are working on them - and doing well enough. The level of detail difference is more a question of the mold as opposed to the limits of the machines with those.

I did a little research last night after making this thread.

A machine similar to the one Proxie Models uses runs about $5k on ebay, and then a few hundred bucks for shipping. To me that is a low startup price for something that can be run just about all day every day.

I also found a company that will do CAD mold designs, as well as cutting the molds themselves for about $1400-1600 depending on the designs and mold complexity. They also offer production services, which might work out well for the short term if funding and space for a molding machine aren't lined up.

So if I had the machine myself, but outsourced the molds, then my long term production cost is low as I wouldn't need to buy a CNC machine and learn how to program it or pay someone to.

Once the machine itself is paid for, a mold costs $1500, and the plastic runs under $.50 for small sprues. So if the sprue retailed for $3.5, I'd have to sell 500 units before that item became profitable. Now with crowdfunding that $1500 becomes easier to buy, as the pieces from it would be paying it off in preorders, albeit at a discount most likely to make the pledges have value.

Depending on the sprue and how much is on it, the cost of molds could be covered quickly I think.

So basically what I'm seeing is that any designs put into production would have to really be wanted. Someone mentioned Unit designation pads, which is a great idea. 10 pads on a small sprue for $3-4 in each variant would sell well I think. At least well enough to get the idea off the ground.

Please keep the input coming, I value it greatly.

You're going to need an industrial power supply too, you can't just plug one of those machines into a wall.

Look at proxie models youtube video where he spends a good 10 minutes going into all the details of what to do if you want to make a startup like this yourself.

If you want to start small you can get a hand opperated injection mold machine for about $1,500 brand new. (or cheaper used on ebay) It can use molds that are made from epoxy so there's not a large tooling cost involved. It includes a built in plastic melter and runs off standard house hold 110v power.

It's slower than using a large automated press but it's very cheap. The work area is about 3x6 inches so there's a limit on what you can run out of it but that's plenty or room if you are planning on doing small stuff like heads pads etc.

I've been looking at one of those machiens for quite a while as it's a much more affordable entry into injection molding.

scarletsquig wrote:You're going to need an industrial power supply too, you can't just plug one of those machines into a wall.

Look at proxie models youtube video where he spends a good 10 minutes going into all the details of what to do if you want to make a startup like this yourself.

I'm aware of needing 3 phase power. Luckily I have an electrician friend who can get that squared away wherever I might setup shop.

paulson games wrote:If you want to start small you can get a hand opperated injection mold machine for about $1,500 brand new. (or cheaper used on ebay) It can use molds that are made from epoxy so there's not a large tooling cost involved. It includes a built in plastic melter and runs off standard house hold 110v power.

It's slower than using a large automated press but it's very cheap. The work area is about 3x6 inches so there's a limit on what you can run out of it but that's plenty or room if you are planning on doing small stuff like heads pads etc.

I've been looking at one of those machiens for quite a while as it's a much more affordable entry into injection molding.

There are a few problems I noticed with the manual machines:
1. The amount of time needed to sit and operate the press per cast.
2. The lack of automatic parts removal from the molds.

For this to be financially feasible, I'd need a machine that runs itself as many hours in a day as possible with very little interaction. It's one thing to sit in a room while a machine runs itself(assuming one needs to supervise the production) but it's an entirely other thing to have to sit there and manually press molds all day for dramatically slower production.

If manual injection was faster, I'd certainly consider it. But it isn't hard to see $5,000 worth of labor eaten up in a short 2 months on top of the cost of that manual press. In man hours an automated machine would pay itself off quite quickly. Ken's machine pumps out a sprue in like 8-10 seconds? Watching a guy hand inject it took almost 45 seconds to inject and demold a single cast, and then there's the time spent setting the mold back up for another cast. So conservatively manual machines are 5 times slower than automated ones, and can't be run 24 hours a day without hiring a second and possible third set of hands.

Let's take a single simple mold. It costs $1600 to make, casts a single sprue, and that sprue retails for $4.
$1 of that is used to pay for the machinery costs.
$2 of that is used to pay for the mold costs.
$1 of that is profit.

Automated:
7.5 casts/minute, 450/hour, 9000/20 hour day(assuming it needs downtime, no clue if it does), or 10,800/24 hour day. Machine costs $5000+ shipping and setup, so lets say $7000. If a single mold pays $1 each towards it's cost, the machine is paid for in a single day. Now of course that assumes a ton of variables which aren't considered here, it's just quick and dirty math.

Manual:(assuming a 45 second production cycle)
1.33 casts/minute, 80/hour, 640/8 hour shift, 1920/24 hour day. Now if I have to pay someone $10/hr to stand there and do this the 16 hours a day that I'm not, I'm out $160/day from my profit, assuming that I'm sitting there doing it myself(which I would since I'm a cheap bastard). So $1920 of profit turns into $1760. And in just over 6 weeks of paying those 2 employees I could cover the cost of an automated machine.

Manual machines are fine for hobbyists who want to crank out their unique sculpts and sell them in small runs or what not, but it isn't very effective for a business. If I'm paying people to work for me, I could just as well do metal and resin models like other companies. My idea is to provide something those companies generally aren't.

And then there is the prospect of offering production to those small companies. If they sell a large amount of a particular item, it may be quite cost efficient to move that product to plastic, especially if you don't have to pay for the machinery and labor. All they would have to pay for is the molds and a production fee/unit. In theory I could provide them with 10k units in a matter of a day or two, or just do smaller runs as they fill orders.

I'm not saying that there aren't hurdles to get past, but I think that if I get it all figured out well enough it might actually work.

Is there demand for you to pump out 10,000 casts of a single item per day?
I was under the impression that many of these bits companies produce in resin because its highly unlikely that they will sell 10,000 of a single sculpt ever, let alone in a single day.
Could you do some napkin math to find the approximate price/volume point needed to make plastic production viable?

If you are experimenting with starting up a company I think the manual machine would be the way to go before expanding into a larger volume of production.

You'd be able to get items into production for well under 5k vs 50k-60k for setting up larger scale production. If you've got 50k to roll on some dice by all means go for it, but that's a huge investment on an unproven product and market. I'd suspect that if a bits market were that strong that Mantic and War Games Factory would already be tapping into that vein.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it makes a lot more sense to me to try a smaller set up where mold sets don't even cost you $50 a pop and test the waters before taking a huge plunge financially. If you start small and go gangbusters then you can easily roll profits over into expanding.

What you'd save simply on one mold would pay for the entire start up costs of a manual machine, materials, and a good chunk of labor.

Also you'll be paying out a huge amount of money to have the CAD models done by others, yes finding people to do basic 3-d models isn't hard, the hard part is finding peopel who understand the correct sense of scale and proportion. It takes a lot of time and experimentation to get the mix right and that costs lots of money. Anyone already established in the miniatures industry is going to charge a premium and anyone that isn't already doing 3d work is going to need a lot of training and practice in order to make a useable product.

The more aspects that you can take on yourself in the early stages the better off you will be. Relying on outside help and labor when starting up a business can quickly leave you in ruin. You have to know the ins and outs personally, that means learning the programs yourself even if you aren't doing the bulk of the modelling. Otherwise every time you need to make a revision or minor adjustment it means shelling out more money to the artists at every turn. There's also major dependence on your ability to retain that artist and keep them focused on a set schedual which is not easy in this industry.

In a way money is the least of your concerns, sourcing proper tallent and design experience is what will determine if you make it. If you don't have those lined up at the beginning don't even try.

I've spoken a lot with Ken about his experiences with Proxie and it's not something that just anybody can launch into. He had a pretty specialized skill set already in place and acess to a machine at rock bottom pricing. (plus he's done everything himself saving boatloads of money) What he's achieved is not going to be your typical result. Additionally he's still working some of the kinks out, his production ability is greatly effected by issues like cold/heat which can greatly restrict his production schedual.

Again not saying it's not possible, but there's a boatload of things you need to research about the miniatures developement way before you can even start looking at production.


Also it helps to have an unhealthy amount of obsession in regards to your business and miniatures in general. Because it's the only thing that keeps you going when you're flat broke.

Trasvi wrote:Is there demand for you to pump out 10,000 casts of a single item per day?
I was under the impression that many of these bits companies produce in resin because its highly unlikely that they will sell 10,000 of a single sculpt ever, let alone in a single day.
Could you do some napkin math to find the approximate price/volume point needed to make plastic production viable?

Well there are several factors involved in determining the actual costs. First is the initial machinery cost. So for an automated machine, let's budget big and say $10k. You now have to decide how quickly you intend to pay off that machinery. If I took 25% of a total sale for machinery costs, then on a $4 item the machinery is paid off in 10k units sold. At some point however, the machinery is paid off, and barring any repairs or problems, the money allocated to machinery gets folded into profit. So again, after 10k units, that $1 each then becomes profit or allocatable revenue that can be spent paying off other costs.

The second cost is design. That of course is not a static amount, and will vary from project to project. Still, at the end of the day that cost has to be allocated into the retail price of the items. So let's say it costs $400 to have someone design a set of 10 guns(using arbitrary costs). That $400 has to be paid off from the remaining $3 left in the retail price. So let's take 10% of that remaining amount(again an arbitrary amount for illustration). At $.3 per sprue sold, it would take 1333 units sold to pay off the design, leaving $2.7 left in revenue to allocate.

The third cost is tooling, the cost for the molds themselves. Brief estimates put this at $1600 on the higher side for a standard 2 side mold. So let's take another $1 per unit to pay off those. That would be 1600 units to pay off the tooling for that item, leaving us with $1.7 left.

The final costs are operational costs: plastics, electricity, and rent. The plastic used in molds this size would be quite cheap, so about $.10 per sprue. That leaves $1.6 per unit left. Electricity will probably cost a crap ton, but that actual cost allocation would have to be determined after a full month of running at capacity. Let's say for arguments sake that it comes out to $.10 per sprue. Rent is then $1000/month, which again couldn't be allocated in the final price until you find out your production capacity. So again we'll say $.10 per unit. At the end of the day with my super dirty math, you end up with $1.40 per sprue sold while you are paying off the first three costs.

At some point, the machinery is paid off, the design is paid off, and the tooling is paid off. From the example numbers and the production capacity I calculated in my earlier post, all of those could be paid off from essentially 24 hours of production. That reduces the overhead per sprue to $.30/unit to keep the lights on and the plastic flowing. The profit of each item then becomes $3.7 out of the $4 msrp.

Now of course none of those numbers are accurate representations of how it will actually work, but you get the idea. GW does that same math when making new plastic kits. For every plastic kit they release, they figure out how many units need to sell before maximum profitability.

As for needing to produce 10k units/day, I doubt that will happen, but the point is that it's possible. So if I had some crazy order from a 3rd party who wanted a years worth of inventory ready to ship, I could do it. Also, the more units you can produce in a day means that you can lower the prices per item. With things like this, that is important. Let's say I start out doing 500 units per day at $5ea. That is $2500/day in revenue, which is then allocated as above. Now lets say that demand goes up, and without really incurring additional costs, I can make 1000 units in a day at $3ea. Now I'm at $3k/day with no real change in what I do, and the customer just saved 25% on the items because they are selling well. And with all things wargaming, the lower the price the more someone will buy, as evidenced in the Bones KS that ended up with a final price of less than $.50/model for plastic injected models. But at the volume they sold, it was viable, especially since it likely paid off all of their tooling costs, meaning that all future sales of those items will be at max profit.

paulson games wrote:If you are experimenting with starting up a company I think the manual machine would be the way to go before expanding into a larger volume of production.

You'd be able to get items into production for well under 5k vs 50k-60k for setting up larger scale production. If you've got 50k to roll on some dice by all means go for it, but that's a huge investment on an unproven product and market. I'd suspect that if a bits market were that strong that Mantic and War Games Factory would already be tapping into that vein.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it makes a lot more sense to me to try a smaller set up where mold sets don't even cost you $50 a pop and test the waters before taking a huge plunge financially. If you start small and go gangbusters then you can easilt roll profits over into expanding.

What you'd save simply on one mold would pay for the entire start up costs of a manual machine, materials, and a good chunk of labor.

I've spoken a lot with Ken about his experiences with Proxie and it's not something that just anybody can launch into. He had a pretty specialized skill set already in place and acess to a machine at rock bottom pricing. (plus he's done everything himself saving boatloads of money) What he's achieved is not going to be your typical result. Additionally he's still working some of the kinks out, his production ability is greatly effected by issues like cold/heat which can greatly restrict his production schedual.

Ken's machine is more or less the one I've been looking at on ebay. They go for $5-7k in working order. Then tooling is about $1600 per mold set. So if I started with 5 sprues, the start up cost would be roughly $15k, or significantly less if I waited on more molds.

He does great work, however as you stated he's doing it all himself. He designs the models, the programs the 3D models, he programs the CNC's, he cuts the molds, and he produces the sprues. That is a ton of time, and skill yes. But the middle 3 steps can be outsourced if someone doesn't have that time or those skills/equipment.

All that said, I might go with a manual molder just to test the waters and see how it goes, as well as test out designs for products and such. I maintain that such a system is not viable for business production though.

I think the problem is that it highly unlikely that you would sell enough of 1 sprue to make it worth your while. If you sold 500 of a sprue you would have a blockbuster on your hands and still not have come close to making back the cost of the mold.

I tend to agree with Paulson that you should go for the cheaper machine until you see if you really need the more expensive one.

Hi. This is Ken from Proxie.

I followed the hit meter back to this thread. Based on volume it had to be Dakka! This place has a lot of folks on it for sure.

I am still learning the ropes, but it can be done. The learning curve is steep. You are going to have to understand every step of the process, even if you hire others to do some of the steps.

If you want to chat send me an e-mail at the web-store.

Good luck.

kenofyork wrote:
Hi. This is Ken from Proxie.

I followed the hit meter back to this thread. Based on volume it had to be Dakka! This place has a lot of folks on it for sure.

I am still learning the ropes, but it can be done. The learning curve is steep. You are going to have to understand every step of the process, even if you hire others to do some of the steps.

If you want to chat send me an e-mail at the web-store.

Good luck.

Awesome. You sir are a saint among gamers. I will certainly be emailing you, as your video is what really inspired me to try this.

brettz123 wrote:
I think the problem is that it highly unlikely that you would sell enough of 1 sprue to make it worth your while. If you sold 500 of a sprue you would have a blockbuster on your hands and still not have come close to making back the cost of the mold.

This would be my initial concern too, although I have absolutely no data on which to base that impression.

Here's some stream of consciousness imaginary scenarios:

Let's say that I love Space Marines, and I have 1,000 marines (because I really love them). I want all 1,000 to have specialty shoulder pads, and for some reason my massive collection is still in a state in which I am willing to replace all of the pads. I now need 2,000 of your shoulder pads, or 200 sprues, assuming that the single sprue had 10 pads in a perfect ratio of variations for my needs. At $5 per sprue that would cost me $1,000.00.

Let's say that I am re-arming all of my IG vets with cool new rifles that you make. A sprue has 10 rifles. I have 10 squads of vets, and let's say that 5 per squad need a gun (taking out sergeants, special weapons, and the odd hvy wep team). I need 50 guns or 5 sprues to do all of the IG vets in my collection. At $5 per sprue that costs me $25 dollars. To reach 500 sales of that sprue you need 100 customers like me.

You know, having thought through that your ideas about volume do not seem to be as far out there as my initial impression. $25 for 50 guns is a sweet deal, and there are plenty of IG players out there who would be willing to drop $25 on cool new guns for their models. Still, being able to push enough volume to keep the company in operation would be my principle concern.

Even so, the capital investment you are talking about is not far out of the realm of possibility. Paulson mentioned a 50K initial investment, but it seems like you are looking at something closer to 15K or 20K. Those numbers aren't a scary as 50K.

All will depend on how much of an outlay you will need and what kind of ROI you want to get in a given period of time.

We have a pretty niche market, but there are other niche markets out there as well (some may well be even more niche).

Everyone knows about model railroads. Probably a comparable market their as we have here. Some people might be familiar with S Gauge model railroads (ends up being 1/64 scale). A smaller group might know that model railroads come in standard and narrow gauge (the narrow gauge being more common in mountain and frontier areas at the turn of the century). So, a small group (narrow gauge modelers) of a small group (S gauge modelers) of a small group (model railroaders). Pretty small market, and yet there are a couple manufacturers of plastic injection molded kits and accessories for them.

Costs involved are not insignificant, but they are far from insurmountable. Pretty sure I could equip a shop for about what we spent on my wife's car last spring...and she doesn't even drive. Like Ken said though, you will have to learn a good bit of everything to keep the operations under control...otherwise the added expense of hiring out everything will bury you pretty fast.

I also found a company that will do CAD mold designs, as well as cutting the molds themselves for about $1400-1600 depending on the designs and mold complexity. They also offer production services, which might work out well for the short term if funding and space for a molding machine aren't lined up.

So if I had the machine myself, but outsourced the molds, then my long term production cost is low as I wouldn't need to buy a CNC machine and learn how to program it or pay someone to.

I would be very leery of that price in making my plans. Chances are they are talking about something simple like the control horn for an R/C servo or an electrical mount of some form. Getting a proper finish on a mold will easily increase costs by 4 or 5 times for a contract shop. You don't want a bunch of scalloping from the tooling to be visible on your parts.

Now on this topic there are several people that are giving some very good advice, so I will not go over similar things.

I think I will go on a different perspective.

The road you are about to travel on is going to be a hard one as many small time businesses are taking a beating at the recession that we are still in. You must have a thorough plan on how you want to proceed. You must have the capital to last you about 5 years of estimated costs that you have planned for on your working plan, then add 10 to 20% on top of that for you will have emergencies. Think smart with your money and be frugal with it. There will be lean times ahead as you proceed with this venture.

Data mine the the hell out of market that you are going to get yourself into. Use your tools of Information, networking, social interaction with your peers, potential customer base, potential business partners to see if this is a viable option for you.

During the way you will find out who your true friends and love ones are. Make note of this when you either succeed or you fail for they will stand by you in times of good and times of ill.

Failure is a learning curve. Idiots put negative labels on such. Screw them all I say. I can tell you that I have failed more than I have succeed in life but I have learned from every mistake I have made.

I found my niche and made money at it with my successes because I was smart enough remember why I failed previously and what I can do to improve myself and not try to make the same mistake over again.

So learn from your mistakes as they will come to you and make them an advantage.

Lastly there is an old adage I like to give to people. "Choose the Hill to Die On". This refers to when you have to make your stand on something and when you do not. If you are able to see that this might not be a financially viable option to you then cut your losses and move on. It is not worth Financial Ruin. You might want to start again on down the road when the financial and economic situations are better for you.

Or

If you think that this is the best shot that you have to succeed then go give it everything you got and if you have to, go down swinging.
You might be surprised in succeeding when others might fail.

Again. Data mine. Research. Execute a long term plan. Networking. War chest of cash, are the main focus of this posting I made.

Regardless Good luck and I hope for the best for you.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Now on this topic there are several people that are giving some very good advice, so I will not go over similar things.

I think I will go on a different perspective.

The road you are about to travel on is going to be a hard one as many small time businesses are taking a beating at the recession that we are still in. You must have a thorough plan on how you want to proceed. You must have the capital to last you about 5 years of estimated costs that you have planned for on your working plan, then add 10 to 20% on top of that for you will have emergencies. Think smart with your money and be frugal with it. There will be lean times ahead as you proceed with this venture.

Data mine the the hell out of market that you are going to get yourself into. Use your tools of Information, networking, social interaction with your peers, potential customer base, potential business partners to see if this is a viable option for you.

During the way you will find out who your true friends and love ones are. Make note of this when you either succeed or you fail for they will stand by you in times of good and times of ill.

Failure is a learning curve. Idiots put negative labels on such. Screw them all I say. I can tell you that I have failed more than I have succeed in life but I have learned from every mistake I have made.

I found my niche and made money at it with my successes because I was smart enough remember why I failed previously and what I can do to improve myself and not try to make the same mistake over again.

So learn from your mistakes as they will come to you and make them an advantage.

Lastly there is an old adage I like to give to people. "Choose the Hill to Die On". This refers to when you have to make your stand on something and when you do not. If you are able to see that this might not be a financially viable option to you then cut your losses and move on. It is not worth Financial Ruin. You might want to start again on down the road when the financial and economic situations are better for you.

Or

If you think that this is the best shot that you have to succeed then go give it everything you got and if you have to, go down swinging.
You might be surprised in succeeding when others might fail.

Again. Data mine. Research. Execute a long term plan. Networking. War chest of cash, are the main focus of this posting I made.

Regardless Good luck and I hope for the best for you.

Where were you 2 years ago? I just sort of flew by the seat of my pants and made it all up as I went along. If I had followed these steps I would have been further ahead. There is some very good advice on this thread, but the way I look at it is this; if you are having fun and like what you are doing it counts for something. I could make more money doing something else, but rewards come in different flavors, if you get my meaning. Money is only one flavor, (and a damn good one) but there are a lot of intangibles that are impossible to put a price tag on.
If you do something you like you never have to work again. But money would be nice too.

@ kenofyork

Thanks for the comment and in many ways I agree about the intangibles. Looks like you are surviving in what you enjoy.

Good for you.

Adam

how much work would it be to turn the sprues into something useful? Seriously, how much wasted plastic do we get? Would it be particularly offensive if the frame was done as something , say, useful? Like piping, ducting and tubing to be used in terrain? add another $2-4 just for that, as every sprue comes with usable terrain, and cuts down sharply on the waste. Add a couple of valve controls onto the sprue gratis, and only about 5% of the plastic end up being useless..

 poda_t wrote:
how much work would it be to turn the sprues into something useful? Seriously, how much wasted plastic do we get? Would it be particularly offensive if the frame was done as something , say, useful? Like piping, ducting and tubing to be used in terrain? add another $2-4 just for that, as every sprue comes with usable terrain, and cuts down sharply on the waste. Add a couple of valve controls onto the sprue gratis, and only about 5% of the plastic end up being useless..

Devil's advocate here but why would I pay more for something I don't want?

 poda_t wrote:
how much work would it be to turn the sprues into something useful? Seriously, how much wasted plastic do we get? Would it be particularly offensive if the frame was done as something , say, useful? Like piping, ducting and tubing to be used in terrain? add another $2-4 just for that, as every sprue comes with usable terrain, and cuts down sharply on the waste. Add a couple of valve controls onto the sprue gratis, and only about 5% of the plastic end up being useless..

A lot will depend on specific circumstances - but again, the finish is generally the time consuming aspect. Since the runners don't need to have a final finish on them which is pristine, you can get away with fast cutting with simple tooling and only minor finish work in order to ensure the plastic flows smoothly through them.

In general though, your sprue can be recycled (if that is your concern) and the cost of the plastic is almost negligible (if that is your concern). The extra time and effort to make pipes or valves and the extra engineering required to ensure that your new sprue details don't gum up the molding process and end up needing gates and what not of their own...not sure if it would be worth while.

I need 3 links from this discussion
1.) a link to Proxie Miniatures
2.) a link to the manual injection machine running around $1500. Everything I've seen was either significant;y more expensive or home built
3.) a link to the company who will tool a mold for $1500. That's significantly cheaper than I was able to find.

For $3000 I may be crazy enough to sit in my basement and crank out stuff for myself.

Proxie Models:
http://proxiemodels.com/

For small kits:
http://www.techkits.com/pim/index.htm

A higher end manual press:
http://www.injectionmolder.net/order_items.htm $1600

Full injection molding services, from mold design, rapid prototypes, mold production, and cast production, starting at $1480:
http://epsilonindustries.com/

"Small, simple parts starts at $1480."

A sprue of guns or shoulder pads is probably not considered a simple part. I would call them to ask for a quote.

Keep in mind the first machine linked to doesn't get hot enough to use the HIPS plastic which we know and love.

The second one does, but pay attention to the shot size (1 cubic inch can disappear pretty fast).

A third option though, is this one:

http://www.mediummachinery.com/index.html

Costs about twice as much (still mad money for some people though) but it can handle higher temperatures and has a shot size which is three times larger than the second one (if I still remember the correct weight to volume conversions).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

seanm222 wrote:
"Small, simple parts starts at $1480."

A sprue of guns or shoulder pads is probably not considered a simple part. I would call them to ask for a quote.

Shoulder pads would at a minimum be Level 3 - though I can't see a way of designing the mold with a planar parting line off the top of my head so it would end up being level 5 based on their online schedule. Cavities and surface finish will likely throw the number up by 3 or 4 times the base $2680 as well.

The $1480 might work for simple bases...though even there, the design of a basic "slotta base" would be level 3.