| Author |
Message |
 |
|
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
2012/11/24 16:10:08
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
|
Ecclesiarchy established itself as official religion of the Imperium and got a seat in Council of Terra in M32.
My question is why didn't Adeptus Astartes protest or argued against that? Only they knew by then how Emperor feel about worship and religion ( especially Wolves, after all didn't Bjorn said: "God-Emperor? Calling him a god was how all this mess started." ).
To say that they didn't care is off the table now as "Reunited" showed us ( interesting that it happened in M32, the same year when Ecclesiarchy gained a seat ).
And in the end, nothing happened. And as a result some Space Marine chapters also started worshiping the Emperor ( chapters like Fire Angels and Black Templars are good example of this ). So what happened?
|
 The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
 |
|
|
 |
|
2012/11/24 19:05:50
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
|
Well some marines did their was a mini wars in some parts between some of the earliest sisters of battle and marines and the marines lost so they couldnt stop the ecclesiarchy
|
 Fire Fire fixes everything |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/24 19:22:00
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
|
Because UM had to shove codex into other legions...seriously I' blame them for losing their mojo (school example of IT) and spread of cancer known as ecclesiarchy....
|
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/24 19:49:43
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
When the population of a million planets decides that believing in the divine Godemperor is a great thing to do, then all chaptermasters who
have yet at least a few braincells left will simply nod and take care of own fief.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/24 19:50:02
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/24 19:56:37
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Gefreiter
Fareham, Hampshire
|
Is it not the fact that a 'Secular' viewpoint in which all the legions/Imperium existed under during the great crusade was shown to be ultimately false by the Heresy and if that 'Secular' viewpoint was wrong then perhaps the Emperor a man who has walked the galaxy for 30,000 years and has massive psychic potential and then sacrificed himself to end the heresy and was then bonded with the golden throne which allows humanity to maintain its Imperuim (the astronomican) might actually be worthy of devotion...
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/26 09:07:26
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
Who's to say they didn't protest? For all we know they did, and got a compromise of sorts, like having religious independence ala the Mechanicum of Mars added to their already existing political semi-autonomy. And in any case, its not like they could go up in open rebellion against the Council of Terra/High Lords of Terra - they'd be no better than Horus and Co. if they did. And before anyone brings up the Space Wolves, they never actually defy the Council/High Lords, just the Inquisition, which for some reason the Council/High Lords leave to handle the Space Wolves on their own.
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/26 10:06:22
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh
|
An Imperium united is easier to look after than an Imperium divided.
They could have been pragmatic about it, realising that the mere mortals need something to believe in recognising the issues caused by separate faith systems.
Some Astartes chapters adopt the whole notion of the Imperial Creed and are firm believers in it.
Space Wolves defying the Inquisition means they are defying the Emperor 
|
No pity, no remorse, no shoes |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/26 10:25:15
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
Thousand Sons Battleship wandering the galaxy...
|
 Pilau Rice wrote:
Space Wolves defying the Inquisition means they are defying the Emperor
And yet they're still there. 
|
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.' |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/26 23:43:44
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Battleship Captain
Calixis Sector
|
You know, that is a good question. Seeing as the Ultramarines were the ones behind the destruction of Monarchia (overseen by no less than the Emperor, the Lord Primarch Guilliman, and the Lord Regent Malcador themselves) as an example that religion of any form would not be tolerated, and that most Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, how did the Ecclesiarchy gain a voice in the Imperium's leadership? Not to mention the destruction of Monarchia would have been public knowledge, as it wouldn't have an example otherwise.
|
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/28 12:55:25
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 01:57:53
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
|
Pilau Rice wrote:An Imperium united is easier to look after than an Imperium divided.
Some Astartes chapters adopt the whole notion of the Imperial Creed and are firm believers in it.
Space Wolves defying the Inquisition means they are defying the Emperor
Woooo there,man...You see the contradiction ? Emp teachings vs politicians vs religious fanatics - who do you think, knows' best ?
I' think "some Astartes chapters who adopt the whole notion of the Imperial Creed " are defying the Emperor IMHO....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Admiral Valerian wrote:You know, that is a good question. Seeing as the Ultramarines were the ones behind the destruction of Monarchia (overseen by no less than the Emperor, Guilliman, and Malcador themselves) as an example that religion of any form would be tolerated, and that most Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, how did the Ecclesiarchy gain a voice in the Imperium's leadership? Not to mention the destruction of Monarchia would have been public knowledge, as it wouldn't have an example otherwise.
That's what I posted million times on this forum, and no one gave me any answer except ranting speculation
|
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/11/27 02:01:54
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:10:50
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
|
Looks like it's time for a history lesson! 
2E C:SoB wrote:Following the ultimate sacrifice of the Emperor, the Imperium was swept by a general upsurge in adoration and worship for him. Visionaries and prophets appeared on every world and cults following these divinely inspired individuals soon grew. There was no central organisation, no control, and even on the same planet there could be hundreds of different denominations, each performing their worship in a different manner, every one of them interpreting the Emperor's will in a slightly different way.
As is the way of such things, the stronger cults grew and prospered while the smaller, weaker ones faded away or were incorporated into the larger sects. Compromises of interpretation were found and slowly many cults became united. Although lots of worlds still had several different sects, other cults managed to spread beyond the surface of their planet, their servants travelling to other stars and worlds to spread their own version of faith. The most successful of these was the Temple of the Saviour Emperor.
The Temple of the Saviour Emperor had a number of advantages over its theological rivals. For a start it was centred on Terra, the Imperial planet, the centre point of the human race and the resting place of the Emperor himself. Secondly, its fanatical leader was originally a well-respected and highly decorated Imperial Guard officer who served in the defence of the Imperial Palace. He claimed he was sent instructions by the Emperor, who came to him in dreams and visions. His original name has long since passed from memory, but the officer renamed himself Fatidicus, which means 'Prophet' in one of the ancient Terran tongues. Fatidicus formed a massive following from the Imperial forces on Earth. From lowly scribes and clerks to Imperial Navy commanders and colonels of the Imperial Guard, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor welcomed everybody.
As time passed and these followers spread out across the Imperium in pursuit of their various duties, the beliefs of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor spread with them. Army and Navy officers initiated their men into the rites of the Temple, while zealous Missionaries travelles through the Imperium, teaching their own religious code to anybody who would listen. They would use their immense skills to slowly incorporate the beliefs of those they met, while also imposing the doctrines of the Temple. At the venerable age of 120, Fatidicus died, but by now there were over a billion dedicated followers on Earth itself and countless servants throughout the Segmentum Solar.
In many places the Imperium was still reeling from the anarchy left by the Horus Heresy, and the Temple of the Saviour Emperor provided a uniting force to instill cooperation between the lowliest and the highest. Those sects which did not, or could not, incorporate the Temple's wishes faced political and economic annihilation. The population would be roused to cast out the unbelievers, and on many worlds this persecution turned to violence.
Although always openly abhorring the more excessive deeds performed in its name, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor's power grew and grew. This process of integration and merging continued into the start of the 32nd millennium, until almost two-thirds of the Imperium was united behind the order. On Terra, the only non-followers were the Adepts of the Cult Mechanicus and the Space Marines, who had their own traditions and forms of adoration.
Early in the 32nd millennium, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor was recognised as the official religion of the Imperium, and was given the title of Adeptus Ministorum. A couple of centuries later the head of the Ministorum, Ecclesiarch Veneris II, became a High Lord of Terra, and over the next three hundred years the importance of the Ecclesiarchy became such that his seat on the council of High Lords was made permanent.
[...]
The power of the Ecclesiarchy spread into every facet of Imperial life. From humble miners and clerks through Imperial Guard and Navy officers to Planetary Governors and the High Lords of Terra themselves, everybody was an adherent to the Imperial Creed - at least in theory. Frequently, the High Lords would take their lead from the views of the Ecclesiarch, believing that he was the mouth of the Emperor, a belief the Ministorum did nothing to contradict. Soon, the Ecclesiarchy was indirectly dictating Imperial law, organising armies, deciding which threat gained priority and where to direct Imperial resources.
As the grip of the Ecclesiarchy grew, elements of the Imperium railed against such control. In the High Lords' councils, the Fabricator General of the Adeptus Mechanicus opposed the will of the Ecclesiarchy, and the Chapter Masters of the Space Marines also viewed Imperial orders with doubt. Following their lead, the Administratum began to fight against the pervasive force of the Ecclesiarchy.
Angered by their loss of control, the Administratum began to re-establish itself as the commanding, binding power within the Imperium. So began a feud that has lasted 7.000 years to the present. The Administratum exercised its influence in a number of ways, undermining the authority of the Ecclesiarch, influencing votes in the council of the High Lords and positioning its own loyal followers in powerful posts. From the late 34th to the early 35th millennium, the power of the Ecclesiarchy waned. Following the election of a series of disastrously weak and incompetent Ecclesiarchs, the Administratum managed to wrest much of its control back from the Ministorum. As time passed, the Administratum gained dominance once more. To the populace at large the Ecclesiarchy was as mighty, all-seeing and powerful as ever, but behind the scenes the Administratum was dictating the agenda of the Holy Synod.
[...]
The name most infamously connected with the Age of Apostasy and the architect of the Reign of Blood was Goge Vandire, 361st High Lord of the Administratum. Vandire had a hard reputation and was a staunch opponent of the Ecclesiarchy's dominance. It was rumoured he used Assassins and blackmail to achieve the rank of High Lord, and none within the Administratum dared oppose him. Shortly before his ascendancy to the vaulted rank of High Lord, Vandire was instrumental in the election of Ecclesiarch Paulis III, a degenerate incompetent who was easily controlled by Vandire and his followers.
Once he had established his position within the Administratum, Vandire moved in to take over the Ecclesiarchy. While other High Lords had manipulated the Adeptus Ministorum covertly, Vandire was brazenly open about his intents. In the end, Vandire personally led a hand-picked contingent of Imperial Guard officers into the Ecclesiarchal Palace and overthrew Paulis III in what can only be called a military coup. Declaring Paulis to be a traitor to humanity, he had the Ecclesiarch summarily shot and took upon himself the dual role of High Lord of the Administratum and Ecclesiarch.
[...]
Although Vandire's Reign of Blood ended with the death of the High Lord, the Age of Apostasy was to continue for many centuries. Much of the Imperium was still wracked by warp storms and all manner of small empires were being carved by Imperial Commanders and Cardinals. The Segmentum Obscurus was more stable since the gifted Sebastian Thor had begun his pilgrimage to Earth. However, with no Council of High Lords and no Ecclesiarch, there was little hope that the rest of the Imperium could be swiftly restored to its former power.
The Space Marine Chapter Masters and the Fabricator General of the Adeptus Mechanicus set about resurrecting what remained of the High Lords of Terra. The copious notes of Vandire's scribes provided damning evidence against many of those who had profited from the Reign of Blood, and Hedriatix was adamant that all those implicated would face a trial for their conduct, sooner or later. Many of the organisations were encouraged to purge their own ranks, such as the Navigators and Chartist Captains. Imperial Commanders were promoted from within the ranks of those who had opposed Vandire, while other High Lords were vindicated by their peers and duly kept their seats in the Council.
[...]
After explaining that Thor was found innocent of all charges brought against him, Captain-General Excelsior of the Adeptus Custodes explained the dire need of the Imperium for a new Ecclesiarch. Since Thor had been proven totally innocent of even the most petty crime, he was an obvious candidate to fill the post in such a time of spiritual need. The crowds roared their approval, thanking the Emperor in his divine wisdom for sending Thor to deliver them. Speaking quietly, Sebastian Thor declined the offer and the Council erupted into chaos. While the other High Lords ranted at one another and at Thor's impudence, and the watching supporters gasped in despair and disbelief, Excelsior tool Thor aside and spoke to him. Although no one truly knows what the Captain-General had sait to Thor, it is widely believed to have been 'You will leave Terra as an Ecclesiarch, or you will not leave Terra at all'...
As the hall fell silent once more, Thor announced that he would take on the mantle of Ecclesiarch, but only on certain conditions. He was to have the full backing of the High Lords whenever he needed it. He would make changes to the organisation of the Ecclesiarchy and they would trust him in his actions. He also wanted to continue, as he had been, moving across the Imperium, preaching to the people directly. It was an orator that the Emperor had guided him, and with his sermons and prayers he would unite the Imperium under the Emperor once more. Naturally, the High Lords agreed, and it was duly announced across the Imperium that Thor I was the 292nd Ecclesiarch.
There were a number of important changes to the Adeptus Ministorum after the Reign of Blood and throughout the Age of Apostasy. Many of them were at the instigation of Sebastian Thor himself. Although Thor strongly disapproved of the way the Ecclesiarchy had been previously run, he was enough of a statesman to realise that radical changes in the Faith were not what was required. There was enough instability already and what the populace was crying out for was solid leadership. Although many of Thor's ideas were never fully realised during his lifetime, the foundations he laid down during his time as Ecclesiarch continue to hold the Adeptus Ministorum together to this day.
And that's about the gist of it.
DarthMarko wrote:Admiral Valerian wrote:You know, that is a good question. Seeing as the Ultramarines were the ones behind the destruction of Monarchia (overseen by no less than the Emperor, Guilliman, and Malcador themselves) as an example that religion of any form would be tolerated, and that most Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, how did the Ecclesiarchy gain a voice in the Imperium's leadership? Not to mention the destruction of Monarchia would have been public knowledge, as it wouldn't have an example otherwise.
That's what I posted million times on this forum, and no one gave me any answer except ranting speculation
Isn't it obvious? When you separate yourself from the people, you lose your vote in their affairs.
So when the Imperium just happens to fully support this faith, you can either "deal with it" or try to fight and suffer the consequences. I'd suspect most Chapter Masters were smart enough to realise the need for a unifying force, or at least that it'd be crap to just plunge the realm into yet another civil war so soon (what would they have done? kill the majority of Imperial civilians for their beliefs? aside from that not being a tangible option in terms of military strength, it would also turn the IoM into easy prey for Chaos and various Xenos). Those who were too stubborn ... well, could account for a few purged or rogue Marine Chapters, no? They've got to have a reason to turn their backs, after all.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 02:17:20
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:14:26
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
|
So this is how cancer spreads...
|
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:20:18
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
|
If you want to put it that way.
The Adeptus Mechanicus and many Space Marine Chapters themselves should be no strangers to adopting weird beliefs. But I suppose for them it's okay.
Kinda weird how the Ecclesiarchy gets so much "hate" (to use the common hyperbole), but everybody is cool with the AdMech's religion, now that I think about it.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:23:05
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Battleship Captain
Calixis Sector
|
Hmmm...kinda seems shameful, after everything the Emperor did to ensure his Imperial Truth would endure, Lorgar and Horus and their cohorts would have the last laugh, with the Imperium abandoning the Emperor's dream to follow a path not too dissimilar from their own. The man is probably raging in his own head over the situation, and I get the feeling he would probably let the Imperium crumble so he can rebuild it from scratch should he get the chance.  Lynata wrote:If you want to put it that way. The Adeptus Mechanicus and many Space Marine Chapters themselves should be no strangers to adopting weird beliefs. But I suppose for them it's okay. Kinda weird how the Ecclesiarchy gets so much "hate" (to use the common hyperbole), but everybody is cool with the AdMech's religion, now that I think about it.
Because the Emperor gave the Mechanicum leave to worship the Machine God? And I don't think the Space Marines actually worship the Emperor as a god per se; some do, but the other Chapters appear to distrust them.
|
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/11/27 09:35:45
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:26:56
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
|
Thanks Lynata, your post really was really enlightening.
Lynata wrote:
Kinda weird how the Ecclesiarchy gets so much "hate" (to use the common hyperbole), but everybody is cool with the AdMech's religion, now that I think about it.
I don't know, maybe because everybody knows that the Ommnisiah is the Emperor so it's ok?
But I bet the main reason why they don't poke is because Mechanicus is controlling all technology so it would be a VERY bad thing to piss them off.
|
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:31:27
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Battleship Captain
Calixis Sector
|
Poor Malcador...if only he had survived the Horus Heresy.
|
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:31:32
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
|
This is Warhammer 40k, not Brighthammer. It's supposed to be grimdark and "shameful".
It's why we got religious zealots purging unbelievers just as much as why we got technophiles turning innocent folks into cyborgs because of a factory quota, frenzied Space Marines killing and eating their own allies because of a geneseed flaw, the most basic forms of technological understanding turned into mysticism, or kids worked to death in underground mines whereas on another world their fathers are rushed over a mine field to clear it for the more valuable tanks.
Welcome to the future of the human race.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote:I don't know, maybe because everybody knows that the Ommnisiah is the Emperor so it's ok?
But I bet the main reason why they don't poke is because Mechanicus is controlling all technology so it would be a VERY bad thing to piss them off.
No, no, you misunderstood - that was referring to the players.
It seems that a lot of people here dislike the whole Ecclesiarchy bit of the background (possibly due to dragging real life concerns into the game), but I've never actually seen anyone sounding that negative about the Mechanicus or some of the more weird traditions of certain Marine Chapters. It's like a lot of fans are really applying double standards.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 02:33:28
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:33:19
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Battleship Captain
Calixis Sector
|
Lynata wrote:This is Warhammer 40k, not Brighthammer. It's supposed to be grimdark and "shameful".
It's why we got religious zealots purging unbelievers just as much as why we got technophiles turning innocent folks into cyborgs because of a factory quota, frenzied Space Marines killing and eating their own allies because of a geneseed flaw, the most basic forms of technological understanding turned into mysticism, or kids worked to death in underground mines whereas on another world their fathers are rushed over a mine field to clear it for the more valuable tanks.
Welcome to the future of the human race.
Well, the Horus Heresy novels were the one that brought me into 40k, and as such my views on the fiction are more in line with the 31st Millennium Imperium rather than its 41st Millennium counterpart.
|
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:33:58
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
|
Admiral Valerian wrote:Well, the Horus Heresy novels were the one that brought me into 40k, and as such my views on the fiction are more in line with the 31st Millennium Imperium rather than its 41st Millennium counterpart.
Ohhh...
Alright, you are excused, then. 
[edit] Pity that 40k might not have much to offer you then, though. I'm almost afraid you might feel "scammed" - but then again, I heard Forgeworld would put out some more Horus Heresy stuff, so ... nothing wrong with just playing in another era, if you find the people?
Fingers crossed, I hope you'll retain your enjoyment of the franchise!
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 02:35:33
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:34:30
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
|
Admiral Valerian wrote:Hmmm...kinda seems shameful, after everything the Emperor did to ensure his Imperial Truth would endure, Lorgar and Horus and their cohorts would have the last laugh, with the Imperium abandoning the Emperor's dream to follow a path not to dissimilar from their own. The man is probably raging in his own head over the situation, and I get the feeling he would probably let the Imperium crumble so he can rebuild it from scratch should he get the chance.
Lynata wrote:If you want to put it that way.
The Adeptus Mechanicus and many Space Marine Chapters themselves should be no strangers to adopting weird beliefs. But I suppose for them it's okay.
Kinda weird how the Ecclesiarchy gets so much "hate" (to use the common hyperbole), but everybody is cool with the AdMech's religion, now that I think about it.
Because the Emperor gave the Mechanicum leave to worship the Machine God? And I don't think the Space Marines actually worship the Emperor as a god per se; some do, but the other Chapters appear to distrust them.
Yep, Lorgars mission completed - check...
But think on this - Guy, who walks gazillion years among man and sees the big picture, gets stomped by his own irony by a mere fanatics...
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 02:36:06
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:36:37
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Battleship Captain
Calixis Sector
|
Lynata wrote:Admiral Valerian wrote:Well, the Horus Heresy novels were the one that brought me into 40k, and as such my views on the fiction are more in line with the 31st Millennium Imperium rather than its 41st Millennium counterpart.
Ohhh... Alright, you are excused, then.
TBH, I don't even UNDERSTAND how the vigorous and progressive Imperium turned into a crumbling edifice resting on past laurels... EDIT: I like Battlefleet Gothic though
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 02:38:31
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:40:04
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
|
DarthMarko wrote:But think on this - Guy, who walks gazillion years among man and sees the big picture, gets stomped by his own irony by human nature...
Fix'd.
And truth be told, whilst (depending on what fluff you'd follow) the Emperor might disagree with what has become of the Imperium, I have a feeling he would not change the current status but rather grudgingly work with what he's got. Right now, the IoM is too dependent on faith as a unifying force. The politicians "back then" during the Ecclesiarchy's raise realised this (with many only condoning it because of this one factor), and so too would the Emperor. There is no "letting it crumble and starting anew" at this point. Humanity will either stand firm in the storm, or it will perish and replaced by one or more of the many forces assailing its worlds.
And I kinda doubt that Ol' Emps would rather see Chaos or the Tau being the dominant power on Terra.
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:40:11
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
|
@AdmValerian - Because 40k is where irony and contradiction is needed, so we can have discussions like this.... Automatically Appended Next Post: Lynata wrote:DarthMarko wrote:But think on this - Guy, who walks gazillion years among man and sees the big picture, gets stomped by his own irony by human nature...
Fix'd.
And truth be told, whilst (depending on what fluff you'd follow) the Emperor might disagree with what has become of the Imperium, I have a feeling he would not change the current status but rather grudgingly work with what he's got. Right now, the IoM is too dependent on faith as a unifying force. The politicians "back then" during the Ecclesiarchy's raise realised this (with many only condoning it because of this one factor), and so too would the Emperor. There is no "letting it crumble and starting anew" at this point. Humanity will either stand firm in the storm, or it will perish and replaced by one or more of the many forces assailing its worlds.
And I kinda doubt that Ol' Emps would rather see Chaos or the Tau being the dominant power on Terra.
So, just go with the flow then...I' just wish that meatbag Emp wakes up for freaking 10 minutes and explains himself....
I' agree that human are religious by nature, or to be precise; making things up to rationalize their existence which leads to fueling chaos,stagnation and stupid wars....so i would stick to the IT tyvm....
|
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/27 02:52:18
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 02:58:16
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Battleship Captain
Calixis Sector
|
Honestly, what a depressing thread...I ended up dredging the vanilla ice cream from the freezer just to cheer myself up. Anyway, I just remembered Solomon Voss, father of the Order of Remembrancers. He was Horus' prisoner, and never a Chaos worshiper, yet he was executed only because he was a relic of the abandoned past with no place either for himself or his duty to remember in the 'new' Imperium. 'We remembrancers served illumination and truth, not the whim of a council of bureaucrats.'
Couldn't the same be said for the Imperium as a whole? Take the Imperial eagle - at the time of the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, it symbolized the Imperial Truth (reason and technological certainty) and an empire that looked both to Mankind's past history and traditions yet looked forward to a glorious future under the Emperor. Now, what does it symbolize? The double-headed empire of the Priests of Earth and the Martian Priesthood - just as Voss said, the Imperium now serves the capricious whims of bureaucrats with no higher aspirations than their own power. 'We will rebuild the Imperium when this war is done.' 'From what, Rogal Dorn? From what?'
The fact that Dorn had no answer is a tragic answer in itself. 'What will we become, Iacton Qruze? What will the future allow us to be?'
And Iacton Qruze, survivor of Istvaan III, and Knight-Errant of Malcador the Sigillite, Regent of Terra, had no answers.
|
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/11/28 12:59:21
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 03:05:05
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
|
Yep, very depressing my friend....
This is why I love SW so much...
IMHO most superstitious chapter of bunch, which upholds their oaths to the Emp and IT , gets inspected by a REAL superstitious fanatics who were founded by archeretic Lorgar...Is this IRONY OR WHAT?
And they wonder why they can't show their arses near Fenris
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 03:05:39
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 03:06:55
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Battleship Captain
Calixis Sector
|
 DarthMarko wrote:Yep very depressing my friend.... This is why I love SW so much... IMHO most superstitious chapter of bunch, which upholds their oaths to the Emp and IT , gets inspected by a REAL superstitious fanatics who were founded by archeretic Lorgar...Is this IRONY OR WHAT? And they wonder why they can't show their arses near Fenris
Is the relationship between the Space Wolves and the 'modern' Imperium that bad? Because during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, the Space Wolves seemed to be one of the Emperor's favored legions.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 03:09:21
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 03:14:50
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
Croatia
|
Admiral Valerian wrote: DarthMarko wrote:Yep very depressing my friend....
This is why I love SW so much...
IMHO most superstitious chapter of bunch, which upholds their oaths to the Emp and IT , gets inspected by a REAL superstitious fanatics who were founded by archeretic Lorgar...Is this IRONY OR WHAT?
And they wonder why they can't show their arses near Fenris
Is the relationship between the Space Wolves and the 'modern' Imperium that bad? Because during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, the Space Wolves seemed to be one of the Emperor's favored legions.
Read " the Emperor's gift " - you 'll see that they are on the brink of a civil war...but this is SW vs "I" and GK ....Clashes with the ecclesiarchy are a whole new chapter....
I'm waiting for book "Blood of Asaheim" and hope that they will cool down situation a bit...
|
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/27 03:15:43
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 03:19:06
Subject: Re:Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Battleship Captain
Calixis Sector
|
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 03:22:09
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" |
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 04:06:57
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
|
Admiral Valerian wrote:
Anyway, I just remembered Solomon Voss, father of the Order of Remembrancers. He was Horus' prisoner, and never a Chaos worshiper, yet he was executed only because he was relic of the abandoned past with no place either for himself or his duty to remember in the 'new' Imperium.
And 10,000 years later in 40k, there are millions of archeologists, historians, archivists, and inquisitors across a thousand worlds who would kill to know what the past was like, with only the slightest understanding that it was purposefully kept from them to preserve what was left of humanity.
In some ways it can be said that the Emperor's view of a secular humanity was wrong. That meaningful faith in something, anything, is just as useful a tool and weapon against that which would destroy humanity. While the Imperium of M41 may appear horrific to those who lived during the Heresy, they've yet to truly understand how to fight back against Chaos. In this case, banning the practice of secularism would be the correct choice, despite it being counter to both M31 as well as our own M3 views.
Of course the fact that we can have this conversation is why I love Warhammer as much as I do, 30k and 40k.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 04:08:42
|
|
|
|
|
2012/11/27 04:24:26
Subject: Imperial Creed question.
|
|
Battleship Captain
Calixis Sector
|
jareddm wrote: Admiral Valerian wrote: Anyway, I just remembered Solomon Voss, father of the Order of Remembrancers. He was Horus' prisoner, and never a Chaos worshiper, yet he was executed only because he was relic of the abandoned past with no place either for himself or his duty to remember in the 'new' Imperium.
And 10,000 years later in 40k, there are millions of archeologists, historians, archivists, and inquisitors across a thousand worlds who would kill to know what the past was like, with only the slightest understanding that it was purposefully kept from them to preserve what was left of humanity.
Assuming they can find the time and perseverance to dig through 10,000+ years of bureaucratic records 
In some ways it can be said that the Emperor's view of a secular humanity was wrong. That meaningful faith in something, anything, is just as useful a tool and weapon against that which would destroy humanity. While the Imperium of M41 may appear horrific to those who lived during the Heresy, they've yet to truly understand how to fight back against Chaos. In this case, banning the practice of secularism would be the correct choice, despite it being counter to both M31 as well as our own M3 views.
I get the feeling that the Emperor and Malcador knew enough to send their specialist troops like the Sisters of Silence, the Assassins, or the Custodes to take care of the matter. And besides, prior to the Horus Heresy, despite the lack of the Inquisition, there were far less insurgencies within the Imperium. I guess people hoping/believing in a glorious future under the Imperium builds greater loyalty than living an unchanging and future-less life.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 04:28:11
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
