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From what I understood this novel is taking place right after the Battle of Calth and "Fear to Tread".

Basically, Guilliman found the Blood Angels legion after the events of Signus Prime. Without communication from Terra Roboute decided that he needed to maintain a sense of order and create a united front against Horus, hence the worlds of Ultramar. Now what I don't get:

- How is that Sanguinius later head to Terra with his Legion to help his father but Guilliman didn't? ( Guilliman could at least offer some Ultramarines to go and help, it's not like he didn't have 120.000+ more )
- I understand that Guilliman wanted to create his own front against Horus, but don't tell me that he put his Ultramar as more important then helping the Emperor at Terra? ( to me it seems like he wanted to create second Imperium to replace the one his father created )
- And later, why he decided to go and help after all? ( when everything was almost over )

I know everything will probably be explained once the book came out but all this put Guilliman at very uneasy border between loyalist and traitor. While other Loyal Legions had their excuse for not being at Terra ( Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hand being practically undermanned, Dark Angels playing hide and seek with Night Lords and Space Wolves being busy with Thousand Sons at Prospero ), Ultramairnes and Guilliman decided to wait and forge a new empire that would be used as a front against Horus? Sounds like heresy to me...

The reason I started this is because I am interested in what other peopel are thinking about this, state your theories here.

Gulliman is a master strategist, writing the codex astartes and other tomes of importance (or self importance).

He is also somewhat of a realist and probably realised, before his brothers, that the end of the great crusade would leave a great void. The direction of the Imperium would need to change and the Astartes would need to adapt.

I think that Gulliman planned for the seclusion of the Emperor, but the heresy threw a spanner in the works.

Contingency - even if Terra fell, Horus' own forces would be exhausted. Guilliman and his relatively fresh forces could launch attacks from a secure base in Ultima Segmentum and reconquer Terra and the rest of the Imperium in the worst-case scenario.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
From what I understood this novel is taking place right after the Battle of Calth and "Fear to Tread".

Basically, Guilliman found the Blood Angels legion after the events of Signus Prime. Without communication from Terra Roboute decided that he needed to maintain a sense of order and create a united front against Horus, hence the worlds of Ultramar. Now what I don't get:

- How is that Sanguinius later head to Terra with his Legion to help his father but Guilliman didn't? ( Guilliman could at least offer some Ultramarines to go and help, it's not like he didn't have 120.000+ more )
- I understand that Guilliman wanted to create his own front against Horus, but don't tell me that he put his Ultramar as more important then helping the Emperor at Terra? ( to me it seems like he wanted to create second Imperium to replace the one his father created )
- And later, why he decided to go and help after all? ( when everything was almost over )

I know everything will probably be explained once the book came out but all this put Guilliman at very uneasy border between loyalist and traitor. While other Loyal Legions had their excuse for not being at Terra ( Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hand being practically undermanned, Dark Angels playing hide and seek with Night Lords and Space Wolves being busy with Thousand Sons at Prospero ), Ultramairnes and Guilliman decided to wait and forge a new empire that would be used as a front against Horus? Sounds like heresy to me...

The reason I started this is because I am interested in what other peopel are thinking about this, state your theories here.

There's no way of really answering these without reading the book. Right now it seems like the whole concept/reasoning in Unremembered Empire was poorly thought out on GW's part.

Harriticus wrote:There's no way of really answering these without reading the book. Right now it seems like the whole concept/reasoning in Unremembered Empire was poorly thought out on GW's part.

Pretty much.

It's gonna be a long stretch now to explain how the Blood Angels make it to Terra and the Ultramarines don't. (edit: Without utterly changing core elements of the canon as we understand it)

Originally it was because they were too far away.
Then it was because Horus told them to go far away because he knew the Ultramarines were the biggest threat to his plans.
Then it was because the Battle of Calth crippled their fleet and the magical Category 5 Warp Storm Plotdevice.
Now... ?

Any way it ends up, I don't like this change. I know that the Black Library has tried their hardest to put their mushroom stamp on this storyline, but it's starting to get ridiculous, lol.

Waiting for the spoilers...

oh nothing to see here without the book?

I'd also add the Lion and the Dark Angels, on their way to meet Gulliman because we know that the Night Lords have been dealt with and the warning of the watchers isn't heeded. So at least 3 Legions and any loyalist close to Ultramar would be missing at Terra, the one and obvious target.

I think they're going to be giving us a new reason why the Ultramarines weren't at Terra - the Emperor... didn't trust them?

If Sanguinius accepted Guilliman's acclaim, then surely the Emperor would not have been able to trust him, either. Although, if this was the case, it makes Sanguinius's sacrifice all the more poignant.

But that wouldn't explain why Sanguinius made it to Terra while Guilliman did not. To run with your theory, Guilliman would have had to dupe Sanguinius somehow -- not told him the whole truth about the failure of the Astronomicon, not told him that there might still be some tiny hope that the Emperor survived and needed help.

Even the smallest hope would drive Sanguinius to Terra. But Guilliman, attentive to the larger picture, would be working on a worst-case scenario basis, not living on a wing and a prayer (pun intended). Maybe that's also why Guilliman thought Sanguinius should be the second emperor instead of himself -- Sanguinius surpassed him in hope. And Guilliman, in his pragmatism, acknowledged that the Imperium Secundus (i.e., the worst-case scenario) could not survive on pragmatism alone.

If Sanguinius found out that Guilliman had not told him the whole truth, that the Emperor might survive if Sanguinius made all speed to Terra, I doubt Sanguinius would raise his hand against Guilliman. Unless, of course, Guilliman tried to forcibly stop him from going to Terra.

This is classic 40k irony: Guilliman would be right of course, in a sense. The Imperium Secundus would need Sanguinius alive. And while Sanguinius did play the crucial role of putting the chink in Horus's armor, we should wonder whether the price was still too high considering that the Emperor would still be entombed in the Golden Throne.

The end of the HH saw the defeat of Horus, yes, but it also put the Imperium in the position of losing the long war. If Horus had taken Terra and extinguished the Astronomicon, it would have meant a great darkness for the Imperium. But a strong light would still burn in Ultramar and that light could theoretically overcome the darkness. Instead, the galaxy descended into darkness even with the Astronomicon still burning bright.

And that terrible thought, that the defense of the Emperor and Terra might not have been the best and necessary strategy but actually a very poor one, is probably why the Imperium Secundus must be forgotten ... even by Guilliman himself.

It will be interesting to see if that's how it plays out!

I think one of the aims of this book is to purposefully place a bit of tarnish on the boys in blue - to throw us a curve ball, I suppose.

We don't know enough about the book to make any speculations yet...so instead, let's move on to another topic: comparing the Imperium Secundus and what we know and speculate about it and compare it to the post-Heresy Imperium.

Firstly, would it be more efficiently managed? Perhaps yes - the Realm of Ultramar which would have been the heart of the Imperium Secundus is certainly more prosperous and well-managed than the greater Imperium, even during the Great Crusade.

Second: it's guiding philosophy. The Emperor would most likely have perished on Terra, so the Imperial Cult would never have risen. Not to to mention that with Guilliman and Sanguinius (and perhaps Lion and Russ) in charge, it is unlikely the Imperial Truth would have collapsed...perhaps it would have been modified to accommodate the existence of Chaos?

Third: Military. We know that Guilliman was already writing down the Codex Astartes by this point, so the legions would still be broken down into Chapters. The question would be whether or not the Imperial Army be retained or broken down into the Guard and Navy.

Fourth: Survivability. If Terra falls, the Astronomican goes with it. Within a generation, all Astropaths would probably be dead. Short-range warp jumps could still be done though, and Librarians could provide astro-telepathy...the question would be could Guilliman and his allies overcome Horus' exhausted forces in such a state?

Maybe Sanguinius was never even on Ultramar. Maybe the cover is just an artsy one that has nothing to do with the plot like you see on comics sometimes. They do seem to standing on a giant chessboard...

Read the unremembered empire a few days ago . One of the best Heresy Novels ever.

Minor spoiler

Guilliman the Lion Vulkan Curze and Sanguinus are all on Maccagre.

And Curze is very baddass in this novel.

godking wrote:
Read the unremembered empire a few days ago . One of the best Heresy Novels ever.

Minor spoiler

Guilliman the Lion Vulkan Curze and Sanguinus are all on Maccagre.

And Curze is very baddass in this novel.

Gotta agree with you there one of the best in the series and I don't even like Abnett.

I think that'll go for something like Sanguinus left for Terra but Guilliman believed that Terra had already so that didn't bither going with him but whenever he finds out that Terra is still standing he's too far away to assists in the actual fighting.

Why is sang on terra and guilliman isn't, WHO CARES!

Where the bleeding hell was the lion!

Jokes aside, abnett has done in one book something all the other da writers failed to do, make them interesting, lion comes off so ott, abnett outdid himself with this one

godking wrote:
Read the unremembered empire a few days ago . One of the best Heresy Novels ever.

Minor spoiler

Guilliman the Lion Vulkan Curze and Sanguinus are all on Maccagre.

And Curze is very baddass in this novel.

Care to give us the major plot points? I'm curious as well why guiliman and lion'el didnt return to terra with sangunius if they were all on maccrage. Also i heard vulkan is there as well. What happened there?

 buddha wrote:

godking wrote:
Read the unremembered empire a few days ago . One of the best Heresy Novels ever.

Minor spoiler

Guilliman the Lion Vulkan Curze and Sanguinus are all on Maccagre.

And Curze is very baddass in this novel.

Care to give us the major plot points? I'm curious as well why guiliman and lion'el didnt return to terra with sangunius if they were all on maccrage. Also i heard vulkan is there as well. What happened there?

godking wrote:

 buddha wrote:

godking wrote:
Read the unremembered empire a few days ago . One of the best Heresy Novels ever.

Minor spoiler

Guilliman the Lion Vulkan Curze and Sanguinus are all on Maccagre.

And Curze is very baddass in this novel.

Care to give us the major plot points? I'm curious as well why guiliman and lion'el didnt return to terra with sangunius if they were all on maccrage. Also i heard vulkan is there as well. What happened there?

Spoiler:

The warpstorm still makes interstellar travel almost impossible. Guilliman uncovers an Alien (proably eldar) artifact on Sotha which he uses to guide loyalist forces to maccrage. Polux Dantioch some white scars and spaces wolves have minor roles . Along with other loyalist forces the Lion arrives on maccrage. Curze has been hiding out for 16 weeks on the Lions flagship and escapes to maccrage. Vulkan who is a perpetual litterally drops from the skies on Maccrage. Curze runs riot on maccrage in the best depiction of him so far and takes on both Guilliman and the Lion at the same time. There is also a subplot with John Grammaticus and the Cabal. Sanguinus arrives very late into the story. Vulkan dies or does he ?;-). There is no explanation given why the angel was on Terra but not Guilliman or the Lion that will probably be given in a future book. Alot of question get answered in this book.

Easily the best heresy book i read this year and one of the best in the series.

Awesome, thanks.

I think they're going to be giving us a new reason why the Ultramarines weren't at Terra - the Emperor... didn't trust them?

Its because Guilliman was a coward, his brothers said it themselves, the loyalist Primarchs said it when he broke the Legions into chapter, Lorgar pointed out how he hid his emotions of distain, how he ran from Angron after he ascended.

I loved Angrons little tantru rant about the hypocrisy of the papa smurf. The entire Legion are a bunch of sycophantic hypocrites who virus bomb entire worlds and then bleat about poor poor calth, ignoring that they drew first blood from the Word Bearers. And no lets skip the fact they were ordered to. Why was them, why not the Wolf King, or Curze, Guilliman enjoyed it even if he said he didn't. The Wolves might be the executioners but the Ultramarines are the judges. A role pap smurf took after the heresy was over.

Their moral courage haunts them ten thousand years later when their afraid to change tactics against the nids, they may know no fear of death but these guys gak they pants at the thought at any deviation from their sycophancy of their long dead primarch.

You're assuming that the Siege at the Emperor's palace is the next part of the story. It clearly isn't since four Primarchs are on Macragge currently.

watch the langyage

Reds8n

Vraksian Defender wrote:

I think they're going to be giving us a new reason why the Ultramarines weren't at Terra - the Emperor... didn't trust them?

Its because Guilliman was a coward, his brothers said it themselves, the loyalist Primarchs said it when he broke the Legions into chapter, Lorgar pointed out how he hid his emotions of distain, how he ran from Angron after he ascended.

I loved Angrons little tantru rant about the hypocrisy of the papa smurf. The entire Legion are a bunch of sycophantic hypocrites who virus bomb entire worlds and then bleat about poor poor calth, ignoring that they drew first blood from the Word Bearers. And no lets skip the fact they were ordered to. Why was them, why not the Wolf King, or Curze, Guilliman enjoyed it even if he said he didn't. The Wolves might be the executioners but the Ultramarines are the judges. A role pap smurf took after the heresy was over.

Their moral courage haunts them ten thousand years later when their afraid to change tactics against the nids, they may know no fear of death but these guys gak they pants at the thought at any deviation from their sycophancy of their long dead primarch.

You went a bit overboard, mate...Guiliman is very noble in this book IMHO...

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

- How is that Sanguinius later head to Terra with his Legion to help his father but Guilliman didn't? ( Guilliman could at least offer some Ultramarines to go and help, it's not like he didn't have 120.000+ more )

Originally the Word Bearers attack on Calth coincided with the assault on Terra, preventing them from heading to where they were needed

When Horus turned against the Emperor and led the galaxy into the most destructive civil war it had ever seen, the Ultramarines were engaged deep in the galactic south. Their very successes had carried them far from Horus' armies in the north-east and Guilliman did not receive word of the betrayal until the battle for Terra was under way. Gathering his Legion, Guilliman led his forces towards Terra, en route destroying a rebel fleet on its way to reinforce Horus. The war had been won by the time Guilliman's warriors reached Terra, but the Imperium was in turmoil.- IA: Ultramarines

While Kor Phaeron set his men upon Calth, Lorgar was leading the rest of the Legion against Terra. - IA: Word Bearers

This version kind makes more sense to me. The only explanation would be why had the Ultramarines not heard of the Heresy until this moment. But then the warp did it.

In the HH series version I guess Guilliman believes that Imperium Secondus is the only option for survival and that to go and assist the Emperor would be a fools errand, after all, they don't even know if Terra has fallen yet or not.

Guilliman is the dark horse in all of this, not the Lion like we have been led to believe

godking wrote:

Spoiler:

Curze has been hiding out for 16 weeks on the Lions flagship and escapes to maccrage. ... Curze runs riot on maccrage in the best depiction of him so far and takes on both Guilliman and the Lion at the same time...

Both of the points I find a little hard to believe but, ok.



Will have to read it for myself though before I form a proper opinion.

^ Actually by the end of this book I couldn't tell which one is Rob and which one is Lion...

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

- How is that Sanguinius later head to Terra with his Legion to help his father but Guilliman didn't? ( Guilliman could at least offer some Ultramarines to go and help, it's not like he didn't have 120.000+ more )

Originally the Word Bearers attack on Calth coincided with the assault on Terra, preventing them from heading to where they were needed

When Horus turned against the Emperor and led the galaxy into the most destructive civil war it had ever seen, the Ultramarines were engaged deep in the galactic south. Their very successes had carried them far from Horus' armies in the north-east and Guilliman did not receive word of the betrayal until the battle for Terra was under way. Gathering his Legion, Guilliman led his forces towards Terra, en route destroying a rebel fleet on its way to reinforce Horus. The war had been won by the time Guilliman's warriors reached Terra, but the Imperium was in turmoil.- IA: Ultramarines

While Kor Phaeron set his men upon Calth, Lorgar was leading the rest of the Legion against Terra. - IA: Word Bearers

This version kind makes more sense to me. The only explanation would be why had the Ultramarines not heard of the Heresy until this moment. But then the warp did it.

In the HH series version I guess Guilliman believes that Imperium Secondus is the only option for survival and that to go and assist the Emperor would be a fools errand, after all, they don't even know if Terra has fallen yet or not.

Guilliman is the dark horse in all of this, not the Lion like we have been led to believe

Unremembered Emprie spoilers

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Spoiler:

I mean, I know the Lions Ship is large and lots of places to hide but an enemy Primarch running around isn't something that you wouldn't take care of. I would have flushed the rats out of an airlock or something And Curze taking on the Lion and Guilliman when the Lion has whupped his butt before and was at the same level in Savage Weapons seems a bit extreme.

Will have to read it for myself though before I form a proper opinion.

There's a lot in this thread to speak of...But just to address one point.

I am appeased for now.

Thank you Verses.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

- How is that Sanguinius later head to Terra with his Legion to help his father but Guilliman didn't? ( Guilliman could at least offer some Ultramarines to go and help, it's not like he didn't have 120.000+ more )

Originally the Word Bearers attack on Calth coincided with the assault on Terra, preventing them from heading to where they were needed

When Horus turned against the Emperor and led the galaxy into the most destructive civil war it had ever seen, the Ultramarines were engaged deep in the galactic south. Their very successes had carried them far from Horus' armies in the north-east and Guilliman did not receive word of the betrayal until the battle for Terra was under way. Gathering his Legion, Guilliman led his forces towards Terra, en route destroying a rebel fleet on its way to reinforce Horus. The war had been won by the time Guilliman's warriors reached Terra, but the Imperium was in turmoil.- IA: Ultramarines

While Kor Phaeron set his men upon Calth, Lorgar was leading the rest of the Legion against Terra. - IA: Word Bearers

This version kind makes more sense to me. The only explanation would be why had the Ultramarines not heard of the Heresy until this moment. But then the warp did it.

In the HH series version I guess Guilliman believes that Imperium Secondus is the only option for survival and that to go and assist the Emperor would be a fools errand, after all, they don't even know if Terra has fallen yet or not.

Guilliman is the dark horse in all of this, not the Lion like we have been led to believe

godking wrote:

Spoiler:

Curze has been hiding out for 16 weeks on the Lions flagship and escapes to maccrage. ... Curze runs riot on maccrage in the best depiction of him so far and takes on both Guilliman and the Lion at the same time...

Both of the points I find a little hard to believe but, ok.

Spoiler:

I mean, I know the Lions Ship is large and lots of places to hide but an enemy Primarch running around isn't something that you wouldn't take care of. I would have flushed the rats out of an airlock or something And Curze taking on the Lion and Guilliman when the Lion has whupped his butt before and was at the same level in Savage Weapons seems a bit extreme.

Will have to read it for myself though before I form a proper opinion.

You went a bit overboard, mate...

I don't think so, I'm just writing what I feel, that doesn't mean what I feel is right. I am a prejudicial person, not in the usual sense of the word relating to ethnic and religous differences but in I make sweeping judgement of people both real and fictional at first glance, I live by my gut, its how my mom told me to be, she said trust your gut and no one else. Guill and Dorn remind me of every boss I ever hated, every hypocrite that i've ever had to deal with. Fulgrim and Horus remind me of deserved arrogance that bothered me yet I accepted, Lorgar reminds me of what I admire but i'd never see in my self, Pert and Curze reminds me of every flaw i've ever seen in myself. I'm a judgmental jump to conclusions guy, something that can be both a weakness and a strength and i'm not changing and have no apologies.

Vraksian Defender wrote:

You went a bit overboard, mate...

I don't think so, I'm just writing what I feel, that doesn't mean what I feel is right. I am a prejudicial person, not in the usual sense of the word relating to ethnic and religous differences but in I make sweeping judgement of people both real and fictional at first glance, I live by my gut, its how my mom told me to be, she said trust your gut and no one else. Guill and Dorn remind me of every boss I ever hated, every hypocrite that i've ever had to deal with. Fulgrim and Horus remind me of deserved arrogance that bothered me yet I accepted, Lorgar reminds me of what I admire but i'd never see in my self, Pert and Curze reminds me of every flaw i've ever seen in myself. I'm a judgmental jump to conclusions guy, something that can be both a weakness and a strength and i'm not changing and have no apologies.

No, I didn't mean to offend you, just don't be so harsh when judging fictional characters *joke*....cheers

Vraksian Defender wrote:

I think they're going to be giving us a new reason why the Ultramarines weren't at Terra - the Emperor... didn't trust them?

Its because Guilliman was a coward, his brothers said it themselves, the loyalist Primarchs said it when he broke the Legions into chapter, Lorgar pointed out how he hid his emotions of distain, how he ran from Angron after he ascended.

I loved Angrons little tantru rant about the hypocrisy of the papa smurf. The entire Legion are a bunch of sycophantic hypocrites who virus bomb entire worlds and then bleat about poor poor calth, ignoring that they drew first blood from the Word Bearers. And no lets skip the fact they were ordered to. Why was them, why not the Wolf King, or Curze, Guilliman enjoyed it even if he said he didn't. The Wolves might be the executioners but the Ultramarines are the judges. A role pap smurf took after the heresy was over.

Their moral courage haunts them ten thousand years later when their afraid to change tactics against the nids, they may know no fear of death but these guys gak they pants at the thought at any deviation from their sycophancy of their long dead primarch.

Its because Guilliman was a coward, his brothers said it themselves, the loyalist Primarchs said it when he broke the Legions into chapter, Lorgar pointed out how he hid his emotions of distain, how he ran from Angron after he ascended.
1 Two Loyalist Primarchs where against dividing the legion up in chapters Dorn and Russ.

2 Lorgar was wrong in his judgement of Guilliman something that he admitted to himself when he was fighting him . So basically Lorgar made a judgement about Roboute that he assumed was true for 50 years only to have to admit to himself that he was wrong.

3 Roboute did run from Angron something thta most sane beings would have done.

I loved Angrons little tantru rant about the hypocrisy of the papa smurf. The entire Legion are a bunch of sycophantic hypocrites who virus bomb entire worlds and then bleat about poor poor calth, ignoring that they drew first blood from the Word Bearers. And no lets skip the fact they were ordered to. Why was them, why not the Wolf King, or Curze, Guilliman enjoyed it even if he said he didn't. The Wolves might be the executioners but the Ultramarines are the judges. A role pap smurf took after the heresy was over.

4 Angron was right in his rant.

5 If the Ultramarines are hypocrites then the Word Bearers are worse then hypocrites.

6 The emperor ordered the ultramarines to do it because the emperor saw them as everything a legion is supposed to be as opposed to the Word Bearers.

7 There is no evidence of Guilliman enjoying it other then Lorgars own opinion which he later admitted was wrong

8 Guilliman and his sons tend to be judgemental no argument there.

Lorgars opinion dosnt count for much being the weakest of the primarchs. Has already been wrong when he said the wolves won meat head.
Angron might have been surrounded, But seeing as how most fighty primarchs see in bullet time, apart from the accountant, so far. I see absolutely no problem with him smushing Russ's faces into his neck before they can react. Best Russ could hope for was mutual destruction
And the only reason that happened was Angron wasnt that pissed with him