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Do you think an IG artillery company can be competitive? I talking Manticores, Mortars, Master of Ordnance, i mean the works. I mean it seems like it would be fun too.

Depends on the point values, but as a whole I would say no. The amount of points you'd have to spend to get enough rounds downrange to kill your opponent efficiently would cause you to be lacking in other important departments, like troops. I doubt you would find yourself with the proper resources to capture objectives, and defend what you have. A deep striking unit would wreak havoc inside your lines, and heaven forbid they have some fliers. I'll play around with the points at various values(I'll start with 1500, 1750, and 2000) to see what I can come up with.

 LaughAndPeeAlittle wrote:
Do you think an IG artillery company can be competitive? I talking Manticores, Mortars, Master of Ordnance, i mean the works. I mean it seems like it would be fun too.

Absolutely. Gunlines are fantastic, and artillery is the place to go.

I recommend FW Heavy Artillery Carriages; more befitting a dedicated Artillery company, and quite powerful.

I've seen some artillery builds. The main drawback is that most boards are not large enough to get the full impact of their weapons. On the plus side, they have more powerful weapons than the LR and come at a cheaper price. This means that although they will not survive long out of cover, you can take a few more each list to compensate a little. The builds i've seen are Alpha-strike lists with mechanized attachments, and another build with infantry used to press up the board to finish off what the artillery hasn't. The idea's i've seen were in their early stages but they played very effectively. The draw backs are open boards with little cover. The artillery will be taken out from every angle.

A fun army (and interesting to play against), but not a competitive all-comers list - far too many opponents can and will deep strike/infiltrate/fly into your midst and rip you apart at close range.

Yeah, you can make artillery work.

The chief thing you've got to stay away from is manticores, though, as you can't squad them, and three manticores does not an artillery company make. Take a mix of colossuses and medusas, or just spam the hell out of basilisks and, with good infantry support, you can still do some pretty decent damage with your alpha strike.

The important point, though, is to keep things cheap so you can bring as many as you can. Because they're in squads, those artillery pieces are going to have to more or less kill something dead every turn, which means you're going to need a lot of them (given that they can't take good hull weapons).

 Clang wrote:
A fun army (and interesting to play against), but not a competitive all-comers list - far too many opponents can and will deep strike/infiltrate/fly into your midst and rip you apart at close range.

Not when they're taking multiple medusa-shots to the face.

My artillery gunline deals with BA, Deathwing, and Drop Pod SW lists handily.

Depends if you can take forge world or not, then look into heavy mortars, thudd guns, artillery battery's etc.

Just add some grey knights for warp quake shenanigans and could be a strong list.

If Heavy Weapon Squads were worth their points, you'd see more Artillery Gunlines.

Griffons and Colossus/Basilisk combo's are pretty devastating against infantry. I'd stay away from Manticores, however.

Everything else you can glean from your Troops: Guardsmen, Heavy Weapons, Special Weapons, and even have the old school Armored Fist squads. But alas, Heavy Weapon Teams are terrible in the current dex...

 KplKeegan wrote:
If Heavy Weapon Squads were worth their points, you'd see more Artillery Gunlines.

Griffons and Colossus/Basilisk combo's are pretty devastating against infantry. I'd stay away from Manticores, however.

Everything else you can glean from your Troops: Guardsmen, Heavy Weapons, Special Weapons, and even have the old school Armored Fist squads. But alas, Heavy Weapon Teams are terrible in the current dex...

Sabre defense platforms, however, are lovely. And fit quite well with a static artillery gunline.

You could make it work, as many have before you.

It just depends on how you play it. If you play it as a gun-line, then it will work well because gun-lines (however boring) do work. You just have to remember that you WILL be low on troops if you put so many points into squaded arty and upgrades for CCS and things, so keep that in mind. But, it's still a really cool list to build and a fun list to play (can be pretty fun to play against too. Every time I fight an arty gun-line, I imagine my troops in a world war 1 scenario with them moving across the terrain under constant artillery barrage just so they can storm a trench in the blood and mud).

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 KplKeegan wrote:
If Heavy Weapon Squads were worth their points, you'd see more Artillery Gunlines.

Griffons and Colossus/Basilisk combo's are pretty devastating against infantry. I'd stay away from Manticores, however.

Everything else you can glean from your Troops: Guardsmen, Heavy Weapons, Special Weapons, and even have the old school Armored Fist squads. But alas, Heavy Weapon Teams are terrible in the current dex...

Sabre defense platforms, however, are lovely. And fit quite well with a static artillery gunline.

Sabre Platforms are pretty good I must admit! If the models weren't FW or I had any ability to model them, I would be taking them.

I actually made a decent little conversion; doesn't look too hot, but until I amass the funds for a shipping-free FW order, this is what I'm going with for my sabre Lascannons.



All 100% Heavy Weapon Team bits, aside from the guardsman.

Definitely a passable Sabre.

I'm trying to find a way to hack a sentinel to look like something resembling one.

It's going... slowly.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 CaptainGrey wrote:
I actually made a decent little conversion; doesn't look too hot, but until I amass the funds for a shipping-free FW order, this is what I'm going with for my sabre Lascannons.

*picture snipped*

All 100% Heavy Weapon Team bits, aside from the guardsman.

Definitely a passable Sabre.

Aren't the Sabre Platforms a bit elevated though? Maybe the picture just makes them look taller than they are. I personally wouldn't care, your conversion looks cool and unique enough to pass as one, but I know a few people who might get pissy over it for some stupid reasons most likely.

If you want a basilisk alternative, I recommend looking at what Che-Vito showed. The vehicle model would pass a lot more than the stationary Flak 88 gun though. But, that Flak 88 has given me a conversion idea for a scenario....

I like the idea, big gun line of 9 or so artillery tanks behind big blobs of guardsmen for protection.

Question, can you make units with 1 Gryphon and 2 other artillery tanks and have them benefit from the scatter re-roll from the Gryphon (at least for the first shot if you fire heavy mortar 1st)?

That + 2 of the other artillery guns would be brutal, assuming all batteries fire as an multiple barrage.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
I like the idea, big gun line of 9 or so artillery tanks behind big blobs of guardsmen for protection.

Question, can you make units with 1 Gryphon and 2 other artillery tanks and have them benefit from the scatter re-roll from the Gryphon (at least for the first shot if you fire heavy mortar 1st)?

That + 2 of the other artillery guns would be brutal, assuming all batteries fire as an multiple barrage.

You can't mix/match in squadrons, but hypothetically that would work using the Multiple Barrage rules.
The shame is that you can't do it.

You can mix and match within squadrons, but that doesn't remove the fact that using a griffon as a "spotter" makes the other artillery less accurate by the radius of a template.

Think about it - when you roll to scatter normally, you have a 1/3 chance of hitting. Ok that's no different. However, when you have the more common arrow, you also have the potential for a low scatter on 2 dice. If you're using the griffon as a spotter, you must place it touching the edge of the template.

That's not even taking into account the potential that the griffon could scatter, making the other artillery pieces miss even more. Paying 75pts for that seems a little silly.

So no, it's not brutal, it's better to just not take the griffon, unless you actually want a griffon for sniping or anti-horde.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Griddlelol wrote:You can mix and match within squadrons, but that doesn't remove the fact that using a griffon as a "spotter" makes the other artillery less accurate by the radius of a template.

Umm... I'm not actually quite sure on that one.

The main shot does hit more often if it's a griffon, which means that if the second shot is a hit, it's actually going to hit more often. Rolling a hit on the second shot after the ranging shot scattered 12" isn't nearly as useful as rolling a hit on the second shot after the ranging shot hit.

Also, you don't HAVE to reroll the ranging shot. If the griffon's main shot scatters just barely off the target, or on to something you'd rather be hitting anyway (or whatever), then you can still leave it there and range from that while having the option of pulling it closer in with a reroll.

Plus, I think the biggest part of your concern here is with multiple barrage rules, not with griffons. Anything that you pair with a basilisk will have the potential to "throw off" the second shot by as much as the radius of a blast template. That said, I don't even think this is that much of a concern.

Let's say that you had two separate basilisks. The first one rolls a hit, and the second one rolls a scatter, and some number of inches. The end result is one hit and one miss. If both of the shots are in the same unit, and the first shot hits and the second shot scatters, then, once again, you have the same number of hits and misses. In the case of the multiple barrage, though, the second shot is guaranteed to land much closer, rather than possibly scatter completely away, and, against large targets like vehicles, it's still possible to get two hits, even if the second shot is a scatter.

You are, of course, running the risk of the first shot missing causing the second one hitting to still not hit, but it all seems a wash to me.

That said, if it's not that big of a difference, then I kind of question the utility of putting a griffon in with something just to make it slightly more accurate. It would be better to just cough up the extra points and just take two basilisks, rather than a basilisk and a spitwad launcher.

Ailaros wrote:That said, if it's not that big of a difference, then I kind of question the utility of putting a griffon in with something just to make it slightly more accurate. It would be better to just cough up the extra points and just take two basilisks, rather than a basilisk and a spitwad launcher.

A Griffon with a Colossus is a pretty powerful combo. Both are strength 6, and the Accurate Bombardment keeps the templates on the enemy unit.

But a Griffon can mean the difference between hitting and missing entirely on things you have to hit the first time...

 Ailaros wrote:

That said, if it's not that big of a difference, then I kind of question the utility of putting a griffon in with something just to make it slightly more accurate. It would be better to just cough up the extra points and just take two basilisks, rather than a basilisk and a spitwad launcher.

While you are quite right that it's not a HUGE difference, the point is you're spending 75pts for it. 50pts more and you can get a whole extra basilisk. The minute increase in accuracy just isn't worth 75pts.

I re-read the rules and it seems the problem is that to fire in barrage mode you'd have to be firing in between the min and max range (RAI, RAW says within the minimum range, which technically means 0-min"s noted I'd say).

Anyways, the Gryphon can only fire at a target 12" or further away, but if paired with a Basilisk or Colossus then all tanks could only use barrage shots at a min 36"

Too easy to get around I say, esp since most armies are happy to get up close against IG.

I kind of like the idea of max sized units of Grypons. Reign accurate death down all over most boards. S6 is weak sure, but I feel like most of the artillery units are for anti infantry over high AV vehicles, there's lots of options in the codex for dealing with that anyways.

What about FW thudd gun and heavy mortar? are they good or just a waste pts in an army?

hellpato wrote:
What about FW thudd gun and heavy mortar? are they good or just a waste pts in an army?

They're just unimpressive compared to what else you could take in the same slots.

More Dakka wrote:I re-read the rules and it seems the problem is that to fire in barrage mode you'd have to be firing in between the min and max range (RAI, RAW says within the minimum range, which technically means 0-min"s noted I'd say).

Anyways, the Gryphon can only fire at a target 12" or further away, but if paired with a Basilisk or Colossus then all tanks could only use barrage shots at a min 36"

Go back and read the new rules on barrage weapons. Barrage weapons always fire as barrage weapons at all ranges out to their maximum now. The only difference is if you get to use your BS or not.

Griddlelol wrote: The minute increase in accuracy just isn't worth 75pts.

True. It would be nice if the griffon actually did something, rather than being... I don't even know what, a blast multilaser?

Or, conversely, have it so that accurate bombardment is a vehicle upgrade that any artillery piece could take, like camo cloaks or a hunter killer missile. I might, almost, possibly consider paying 15 points to make an artillery piece twin linked.

Well my mistake in my favor then

I read that section 3 times and just read it again. it is just terribly worded.

That said, people seem to tout Biovores in the Nids dex at 45 points for a S4 large blast barrage, why is 75 points for a TL S6 large blast barrage not a decent choice? Competition for the HS slot or just redundancy as far as S6-7 goes for IG with the rest of the army list?

Griffons really are not as bad as your poo pooing about. They are an amazing anti horde option at 75 points and hit often. I like a couple for dealing with orks or enemy IG behind an ADL. For this job I don't think there is better option for their cost. Heck, they're even ordinance meaning light armor need to be careful.

But using one for improved accuracy is something I have heard of but have yet to try. I'll admit it seems tempting to try but I have to agree that I would generally rather spend the 75 else where. Griffons are pretty much just AI where as basilisks are definitely AT as well. I don't want mixed rolls in my artillery batteries. I could see one taken with a colossus though, may try it at some point as I heard of someone having great success that way, I still take salt with that though.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/h/Heavy_Artillery.pdf

http://www.internethobbies.com/lontomm5915c.html

865 points for 9 Earthshakers with camo cloaks at approximately 1/3 the Forgeworld price.

/thread?

 More Dakka wrote:
Well my mistake in my favor then

I read that section 3 times and just read it again. it is just terribly worded.

That said, people seem to tout Biovores in the Nids dex at 45 points for a S4 large blast barrage, why is 75 points for a TL S6 large blast barrage not a decent choice? Competition for the HS slot or just redundancy as far as S6-7 goes for IG with the rest of the army list?

Griffins rock, and in 6th with less armor and barrage sniping they are even more useful. Generally people who have the biggest problem with the griffin are the biggest theory hammer players around. Field a few and you will see just how useful they are.