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This is something I've been tossing around and am going to try this weekend. Any suggestions on if its good or bad? What would you to to cheeze it up a little more?

HQ
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh w/Wings, Armor
Daemon Prince of Khorne w/Wings, Armor, Axe of Blind Fury

Troops
10 Chaos Cultists
10 Chaos Cultists
10 Chaos Cultists

Fast Attack
HellDrake w/BaleFlamer
HellDrake w/BaleFlamer
HellDrake w/BaleFlamer

Heavy Support
Chaos Land Raider w/Dozer Blade
Chaos Land Raider w/Dozer Blade
Chaos Land Raider

The idea is to start the DPs on the table and hide them behind the land raiders. Use them to either make surgical strikes or conter-assaults.
The cultists hide in the land raiders until turn 5, then they hide behind them.
The land raiders crack open any transports. The helldrakes fry the contents inside.

I've considered dropping a helldrake and beefing the DPs to tzeench princes and level 3 pskyers. Bolt is good against flyers, and that would give two rolls each on the biomancy table. Alternativly I could give one the black mace to have two daemon weapon - wielding beatsticks.

The Fluff-Nazi in me sees red with both a Khorne and Slaneeshi Demon prince in the same list.

I think getting the Black Mace in there is a good idea. You'll benefit from all the offense you can get out of those Land Raider, Princes and Helldrakes.

Thanks for the input.

You should have AP3 down flat with the heldrakes so I agree with the beefing of the Daemons for more AP2 goodness

So you guys think I should drop a helldrake, and just beef up the princes?

I think this list would be hard to deal with if your opponent is running ravenwing banner of devastation.

I like it with 3 helldrakes, I just don't like opposing marks on the same army.

Yea, I like the triple helldrakes as well.

I could drop the dozer blades to get the black mace, but I really don't want the raiders getting stuck on terrain. I figured one can sit back and objective camp, so it wont need to move much. I will need at least two that can jink around and grab objectives on turn 5.

(well, the idea is that they drop the cultsits off, who then hide behind the land raider)

Could work.

I'd drop the third Heldrake for more scoring and the black mace. Maybe work in a small-medium squad of CSMs or two to ride in the LRs and actually be able to assault a cheap/fragile enemy unit or two, and to be able to withstand a little bit of shooting when the game goes beyond turn 5. Any displaced cultists squads would hide in Reserve instead, hugging cover when they come on and aiming to score objectives on your own side of the table.

Ill play with the numbers and see what I can do.

I agree that a 45 point black mace dramatically increases the damage output of a DP.
The other 135 points can be used to convert at least one squad of cultists to CSM.

Sadly, CSM land raiders really are not good for moving around. The mars-pattern layout means their best used sitting on an objective. Any counter-assaults must be done through the DP.

I, could, of course, drop the DPs, add in Abbadon and some chosen -- but I like the flexability the DPs offer. If I'm facing a guard player they can zoom in and do damage to the guard's manticores. They can also bog down wraiths.

Well that just looks disgusting to fight. I'd make sure the first demon prince has the mace so that you can crash both princes into a deathstar and just be guaranteed to wipe it out with all those daemon weapon AP2 goodness.

Do you agree that the best thing to drop to make that happen is a helldrake?

The alternative would be to drop the third LR, which would free up even more points for scoring and semi-assault-competent CSMs. You could get two small squads without dropping any cultists or the third helldrake, giving you five scoring units. Cultists would purely reserve/hide.

I wish I had 2 more helldrakes and 1 more landraider. I have 2 dp with wings and 20 cultists and 1 drake and lraider. This looks like a fun list with 6 models that are hard to kill.

I'm still missing one drake and 10 cultists from finishing this list. I'm going to proxy them for a few games to see how it works.

It seems odd, but I'm actually thinking of going tri-land raider for my normal PM builds. The idea would be to keep the LR behind the PM providing fire support, and the PMs hopping in when they need to get the hell out of dodge. The difference between those and rhinos is that the LR is not likely to give up first blood.

This idea stemmed from the fact I was giving all my lists tri-predators for fire support. CSM predators are cheaper than their loyalst counterparts, and AV 13 armor at range is very good. At 115 points, they clock in for good firepower. I was thinking that a rhino is 35 points. Swapping out the predator for a CSM LR is 115 more points than a base predator. I'm also saving 35 points from the rhino, so the virtual cost to increase from a predator to a CSM LR is 80 points. The firepower is about the same on a CSM LR to a predator (TL weapons hit more, but your trading the AC for a TL HB)

What your paying 80 points for is the ability to have an AV 14 shell when you need it. This might be when your facing a triple helldrake list, or DE beast packs, or Loota spam.
As the meta changes and people start bringing a ton of Melta again, that concept will change, but for today I think there is some merit to it.

Don't fight necrons

Why? Gauss? Most 'cron players are bringing 5 warriors in a NC. Each gauss weapon has a 1/9 chance of taking off a hull point. That means if 5 warriors drop next to a raider they will take off 1/4 of its hull points. They will then get obliterated by the PMs. Don't get me wrong, 15 warriors dropping out of a NC is a big concern. If I only saw a single list that had 15 warriors in a NC I would be worried. If my opponent wants to drop 20 warriors next to one LR to kill it, I will be more than happy to trade a 230 LR for 4 scoring units.

Wraithwing? If your facing the first list, the two DPs will do a number of the wraiths. If your facing PMs in land raiders, the PMs can do a number of wraiths. Even when hitting LRs, a wraith has a 1/18 chance of glancing, and 1/18 chance of penetraing the LR. Those are not awesome odds.

The biggest danger are scarabs. Scarabs are easily countered by using the DPs/Drakes/PMs. The DPs and drakes insta-kill them by the boatload. The PMs can bog them down as the scarabs need a 6 to wound them. Furthermore scarab farms are not all that common any more.

I'm really not worried about 'crons.

Daemon flamers/screamers though. Now that's game over before it starts.....

 labmouse42 wrote:
Why? Gauss? Most 'cron players are bringing 5 warriors in a NC. Each gauss weapon has a 1/9 chance of taking off a hull point. That means if 5 warriors drop next to a raider they will take off 1/4 of its hull points. They will then get obliterated by the PMs. Don't get me wrong, 15 warriors dropping out of a NC is a big concern. If I only saw a single list that had 15 warriors in a NC I would be worried. If my opponent wants to drop 20 warriors next to one LR to kill it, I will be more than happy to trade a 230 LR for 4 scoring units.

Wraithwing? If your facing the first list, the two DPs will do a number of the wraiths. If your facing PMs in land raiders, the PMs can do a number of wraiths. Even when hitting LRs, a wraith has a 1/18 chance of glancing, and 1/18 chance of penetraing the LR. Those are not awesome odds.

The biggest danger are scarabs. Scarabs are easily countered by using the DPs/Drakes/PMs. The DPs and drakes insta-kill them by the boatload. The PMs can bog them down as the scarabs need a 6 to wound them. Furthermore scarab farms are not all that common any more.

I'm really not worried about 'crons.

Daemon flamers/screamers though. Now that's game over before it starts.....

As a necron player, let me say a word or two on the necron section of this. The good necron lists I see might run a night scythe or two, but to work, they need boots on the ground. Alot of necrons are bring ghost arks since they dont fear plasma and such. Sure your DP will do a number on such vehicles, but they have to worry about mind shackle scarabs. As for flyers, your list relies alot on going second to deal with them because alot of the other flyers will get behind you given the chance. If it isn't vector strike, you can't really take down flyers. As for scarabs and wraiths, I haven't seen them in this edition so far so I have no idea. You

My Necrons lists would tear all three of those raiders open turn 1. The helldrakes however present a problem, unless people tailor against this list, it will be very very hard to beat

I'd take 6 wraiths over a demon prince any day in terms of melee powah. Just don't let your cultists be targeted and you'll be fine

 iGuy91 wrote:
I'd take 6 wraiths over a demon prince any day in terms of melee powah

I think you would be shocked if you saw the mathhammer behind it.

This is the DP I would use on a squad of wraiths. Its the khorne DP with the axe of fury. Its safe to assume that the DP will get the charge, because his job is to sit back and wait for the wraiths to come tear open the land raiders. If his job was to charge the wraiths it would be a different story, but since hes counter-assault, I think we can give him the benifit of the doubt.

The other key is that by getting the assault, you have a good chance to avoid whipcoils for a round. This is significant. While the whipcoils will get you on the second round, there is a good chance the prince will strike the first round at I8.

Daemons Prince using "Axe of Fury"
WS 8 vs. WS 4 = 66.67% chance to hit
S 8 vs. T4 = 83.33% chance to wound
Wraiths has a 3++ save = 33.33% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds The Prince.

33.00% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.21, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 9 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.55, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.62, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.67, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 12 attacks × 16.67% = 0.74, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 13 attacks × 16.67% = 0.80 equals ~3.6 unsaved wounds first turn.

33.00% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 5 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.15, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.43, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 9 attacks × 16.67% = 0.49, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.55, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.61, plus
66.67% × 83.33% × 33.33% × 12 attacks × 16.67% = 0.67 equals ~2.92 unsaved wounds first turn.
This means all the wraiths will be dead at the end of the second round of assault

Wraiths striking at the prince
WS 4 vs. WS 8 = 50.00% chance to hit
S 6 vs. T5 = 66.67% chance to wound (16.67% to rend)
Prince has a 3+ save = 33.33% chance to get through, and
Prince has a 5++ save = 66.67% chance of rends to get through

50.00% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 3 attacks = 0.24, plus
50.00% × 50.67% × 66.67% × 3 attacks = 0.08 equals ~.33 unsaved wounds per wraith

What does it mean?
At the best case for the wraiths, they manage to get a whipcoil on the prince and strike first. They will just just under 2 wounds to the prince.
The prince will then insta-kill 3.6 of the wraiths. On the following turn, the remaining wraiths will do 1 wound to the prince, and then the prince will kill the rest of them.
In the worst case for the wraiths, the DP is not next to a whip coil on the first round of combat, and kills 3.6 wraiths before they strike. The wraiths do 1-2 wounds to the DP before they all die.

Wraiths are excellent units, but they are very weak to anything that causes ID. That's why I gave the prince the Axe of Fury.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 madival wrote:
As a necron player, let me say a word or two on the necron section of this. The good necron lists I see might run a night scythe or two, but to work, they need boots on the ground. Alot of necrons are bring ghost arks since they dont fear plasma and such. Sure your DP will do a number on such vehicles, but they have to worry about mind shackle scarabs. As for flyers, your list relies alot on going second to deal with them because alot of the other flyers will get behind you given the chance. If it isn't vector strike, you can't really take down flyers. As for scarabs and wraiths, I haven't seen them in this edition so far so I have no idea.

That shows a dramatic difference in metas. I not seen a single ghost arc in 6th. I've seen lots of wraith-wings. I seen a lot of Necron French Bakery lists.

I love this term - Necron French Bakery lists

Mainly Wraithwing in the UK. You might see 1 or 2 Arks but they are rarely in lists here.

The list is good, but i think precision tactics will be needed as those DP's can go down very easy if caught out in the open.

Daemons will cause issues for you and so will DA running their triple LR list, I think they have multimeltas right?

God forbid a Manticore causes a wound on one of your DP's first turn, that could be nasty.

But, whats the point in talking about counters as every list has problems with some things.

It's all about how this fits into the current meta and likely lists you will face so I would play those and see how it copes.

2x 5 sternguard in a drop pod, or don't you see those anymore either? I guess you could reserve some of your raiders, or bubblewrap them with cultists but it still looks like a bit of a problem?

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Mainly Wraithwing in the UK. You might see 1 or 2 Arks but they are rarely in lists here.

The reality is that this is a big planet, and people will see different meta's wherever they play. Just because I don't see ghost arks in my local area does not mean that they are not common in another area. On this forum we all speak about our experiences, and those can be vastly different depending on where we live.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
The list is good, but i think precision tactics will be needed as those DP's can go down very easy if caught out in the open.

Let me show you something cool. (Forgive the unfinished paintjob)
This is from the model's eye view of a 28MM model on the ground. Can you see the DP wing from behind the land raider.

Now, look at p8 of the rulebook for drawing Line of Sight. "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the target's body (the head, torso, arms, or legs)" This states very clearly that you cannot target the prince as you can only see a wing.

Now this does not work for models in ruins, or on a bastion, but careful placement can protect the DPs for the important first round.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Daemons will cause issues for you and so will DA running their triple LR list, I think they have multimeltas right?

They have flamers. 9 flamers will toast a LR in a single blast. Well, lets be fair. 9 flamers will toast anything in the game.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
God forbid a Manticore causes a wound on one of your DP's first turn, that could be nasty.

That's an excellent point. While they still have their 3+ save, its a big risk. If I'm facing manticores, I might want to leave them in reserve.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
It's all about how this fits into the current meta and likely lists you will face so I would play those and see how it copes.

Yea, I'm hoping to get some test games in this weekend to see how it plays. I might change up some things. I don't like the 2nd prince not having a black mace. I want to see what I can do to buff him up, but all I can think about is dropping a raider or helldrake. I might just drop the second prince and take more troops. It will just take some playtesting to see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nivoglibina wrote:
2x 5 sternguard in a drop pod, or don't you see those anymore either? I guess you could reserve some of your raiders, or bubblewrap them with cultists but it still looks like a bit of a problem?

I don't see many C:SM players. Those that do are taking more combi-plas than combi-melta.

The meta has changed. Your seeing a lot more foot lists. Those combi-meltas just are not as good. Ergo, were not seeing them as much.
This may change as helldrakes push people to going back into boxes.

Dark Eldar. Most DE lists will have enough lances to take care of your Land Raiders and venoms will cut the DPs and cultists apart.

They don't have much of an answer for the 3 Drakes besides massed lance and blaster fire.

So it really comes down if they can kill your LR's fast enough and then spread out to avoid getting multiple units flamed by one drake.