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I read that Horus once saved the Emperor's life on the planet Gorro, when he hacked the arm off a frenzied Ork that was trying to choke the life out of the Emperor...

Does this strike anyone else as odd? The god Emperor of mankind. Immortal conqueror of worlds, most powerful psychic in the galaxy, who single-handedly bested every primarch? Choked to to death by random ork? Could he really have been in that much mortal danger?

It does sound rather fishy.

At the same time, I also think that a lot of people give way too much credit to propaganda and legends regarding how "immortal" the Emperor or the Primarchs were.
Primarchs can be killed by random troops (Dorn), Emperor can be "killed" by Primarch (Horus) ...

Wasn't the ork one the of the largest warbosses of all time?

 Lynata wrote:
ItPrimarchs can be killed by random troops (Dorn)

Stop making claims on the formidability of a Primarch with an example utterly lacking context.

Emperor can be "killed" by Primarch (Horus) ...

One that feasted on the powers of Chaos.

 Lynata wrote:
At the same time, I also think that a lot of people give way too much credit to propaganda and legends regarding how "immortal" the Emperor or the Primarchs were.
Primarchs can be killed by random troops (Dorn), Emperor can be "killed" by Primarch (Horus) ...

This. If you remove their "I'm a main character, I can't die until the story says so" protection any random idiot with an anti-tank missile can kill a primarch or the emperor.

Is it too late to say he rolled a 6. :p

 Peregrine wrote:
This. If you remove their "I'm a main character, I can't die until the story says so" protection any random idiot with an anti-tank missile can kill a primarch or the emperor.

People have tried.

People have failed.

The concept of plot armor escapes you, doesn't it?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
People have tried.

People have failed.

I guess you missed the part about "I'm a main character and can't die until the story says so"? The fact that the emperor and primarchs survived has nothing to do with their durability, it has to do with them being main characters that can't die yet because they're important to the story. The exact same thing would happen in a book with a normal guardsman as the main character, and I don't think anyone is ever going to claim that guardsmen are invulnerable.

On the other hand, if you copy the primarchs into an alternate universe where the events have no impact on the main-universe story and put them on a random battlefield they're dead as soon as someone identifies them as enemy leaders and grabs an anti-tank missile/artillery barrage/orbital bombardment/nuclear weapon/etc.

Void__Dragon wrote:Stop making claims on the formidability of a Primarch with an example utterly lacking context.

How is it lacking context? Primarch tries to board a bridge and gets shot.
Same can happen to the Emperor. Hypothetically.
It is like Peregrine said - it's the plot armour that makes characters invulnerable, not some sort of ... I don't know, why should the Emperor or the Primarchs be as unkillable as you seem to believe? Is there some magical aura that protect them from all harm? Or is it not rather just writer fiat?

Some people believed Vandire was invulnerable until his Rosarius failed.

Void__Dragon wrote:One that feasted on the powers of Chaos.

Like the CSM Lord that got choked to death by Colonel Straken?

I'm pretty sure Straken's METAL arm helped there

 Lynata wrote:
How is it lacking context? Primarch tries to board a bridge and gets shot.
Same can happen to the Emperor. Hypothetically.
It is like Peregrine said - it's the plot armour that makes characters invulnerable, not some sort of ... I don't know, why should the Emperor or the Primarchs be as unkillable as you seem to believe? Is there some magical aura that protect them from all harm? Or is it not rather just writer fiat?

Some people believed Vandire was invulnerable until his Rosarius failed.

It's lacking context because you don't even know if he got shot, he could have rampaged through a hundred Bloodthirsters and then been felled after he got tired and was hit by a hundred Lascannons. We don't know, it isn't valid evidence.

Well, because each one hovers around ten feet tall and is physically powerful enough to tear Space Marines limb from limb with their bare hands, or smash through tanks?

Primarchs are explicitly compared to Greater Daemons in the fluff, and many of them have bested such foes in single combat. Without needing to be Grey Knights to do so.

They are not "unkillable", your impotent strawman has no power here I am afraid. But they are far beyond any Marine in physical prowess, and it helps that some, such as Magnus or Lorgar, are very powerful psykers.

The Emperor is all that and more, but that said, this Ork was explicitly about the size of a dreadnought. There is no reason the Emperor could not be briefly physically challenged by one.

Like the CSM Lord that got choked to death by Colonel Straken?

Horus is the single most powerful and revered Chaos Champion the galaxy has ever seen.

That Chaos Lord was not.

Though Horus, amplified, did in fact physically dominate the Emperor, who is explicitly physically on par with a Primarch.

LazzurusMan wrote:I'm pretty sure Straken's METAL arm helped there

True enough. Also, he was a Catachan!

I still think it's a hilarious piece of fluff.

Void__Dragon wrote:It's lacking context because you don't even know if he got shot, he could have rampaged through a hundred Bloodthirsters and then been felled after he got tired and was hit by a hundred Lascannons. We don't know, it isn't valid evidence.

No, it's not "evidence" - but it has merit as a notable event. What's more likely when you board some random Chaos cruiser? That you meet a hundred Bloodthirsters and a hundred lascannons? Or that you encounter nothing but a bunch of frightened scrubs, frenzied cultists and a bunch of CSM line troops when you finally get to the bridge? Occam's razor.

Void__Dragon wrote:Well, because each one hovers around ten feet tall and is physically powerful enough to tear Space Marines limb from limb with their bare hands, or smash through tanks?

That's what the novels want to make you believe.
The same novels that can't even decide on whether a normal Space Marine should be 8, 10 or 14 feet high (when GW says they're 7), remember? Stuff needs to be Epic with a capital e.

It's not really something we can argue about, anyways. If you want Superhero World with people who can "smash through tanks", fine - I suppose my own interpretation of the setting is just a bit more gritty.

 Peregrine wrote:
The exact same thing would happen in a book with a normal guardsman as the main character, and I don't think anyone is ever going to claim that guardsmen are invulnerable.

Being choked by an ork seems like more of a credible threat to a guardsman. But an ork versus the Emperor? It might as well be snotling.

Because a heavily muscled, 12 foot tall veteran of dozens of wars isn't at least comparable to a Space Marine Captain or possibly a Primarch.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
But they are far beyond any Marine in physical prowess, and it helps that some, such as Magnus or Lorgar, are very powerful psykers.

So what if they're better than a marine? They're still roughly human-size blobs of meat, and when human-size blobs of meat go up against anti-tank weapons the anti-tank weapon wins. And there are a lot more anti-tank missiles than there are primarchs.

In some way it seems like the opposite of plot armour. In Bill King's short story of the Emperor's battle with Horus. The Emperor is described as having:

- His throat cut opening his Jugular and Wind pipe,
- Half his face melted off,
- His ribs crushed,
- His back broken,
- His arm pulled off...

He still manages to summon enough psychic might to kill Horus, while Horus is at peak power and being fed buffs by all four Chaos gods simultaneously. Yet, being choked by an ork: Emperor is helpless?

It seems like more of a plot weakness just to give Horus something to save him from.

 Amaya wrote:
Wasn't the ork one the of the largest warbosses of all time?

Do you know where it says who he was?

I must agree unless they have Eternal Warrior they will die the second someone sneezes to close to a lascannon trigger...if they have eternal warrior then that is another story, cause they have in universe super duper plot armor.

Have you never seen some of the orcs in the orc codex or the bizarrities they call orks in the Apocalypse stuff. Those things are huge! Huge I tell you, they could eat a space marine, Ghazzy already does every time he is fielded. I find nothing unusual that the emperor could get chocked out by an ork, without his fancy tech and armies he doesn't seem that impressive.

BTW has anyone else noticed a total disparity between psyker abilities in 40K? On one hand there are supposed to be planet destroying psykers in the fluff and yet the emperor is the "stongest" psyker yet never does anything really impressive psyker wise. Then the "strong" psykers hit the table and they have trouble dealing with a 10 man tac squad. I would have imagined them to be expensive but good, going from the fluff, like some high pts medusa siege gun that can be put in a squad.

Alpha and higher psykers are typically executed on the spot as they pose too great a threat to be used effectively and safely. Cost benefit analysis.

 Smacks wrote:
In some way it seems like the opposite of plot armour.

No, it's exactly plot armor. The main character must be in danger and get close enough to death to make things exciting, but can't die until/unless it is necessary for story reasons. Because the emperor is a main character the ork was able to be exactly enough of a threat to almost kill the emperor and give an opportunity for heroic intervention.

 Lynata wrote:
[No, it's not "evidence" - but it has merit as a notable event. What's more likely when you board some random Chaos cruiser? That you meet a hundred Bloodthirsters and a hundred lascannons? Or that you encounter nothing but a bunch of frightened scrubs, frenzied cultists and a bunch of CSM line troops when you finally get to the bridge? Occam's razor.

I think that any battle requiring a Primarch leading the charge into combat isn't going to be just some random ass ship with normal troops.

Not that it really matters. If it took hundreds of "normal" Chaos worshippers to kill a single Primarch... How does that prove your point now?

That's what the novels want to make you believe.

Or the description of Ferrus Manus's life (Which I'll admit very likely is a lot of hyperbole, more than most examples). Or the fight between Russ and Magnus. Or Konrad Curze surviving a plummet through Nostramo. Or Leman Russ landing in a volcano. Or Mortarion being hit by a tank-mounted plasma cannon, and proceeding to tear the tank apart. All of this occurred outside of a novel.

Where is your contradictory fluff on the physical capabilities of the Primarchs now?

The same novels that can't even decide on whether a normal Space Marine should be 8, 10 or 14 feet high (when GW says they're 7), remember? Stuff needs to be Epic with a capital e.

Go ahead and provide contradictory fluff on a Primarch's physical power.

Also, name the instances within the Horus Heresy where Space Marine height is wildly contradicted.

It's not really something we can argue about, anyways. If you want Superhero World with people who can "smash through tanks", fine - I suppose my own interpretation of the setting is just a bit more gritty.

Sorry, but Primarchs are explicitly at least on par with Greater Daemons, who explicitly can "smash through tanks". This isn't an instance of differing interpretations. This is an instance of you being wrong.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Or the description of Ferrus Manus's life (Which I'll admit very likely is a lot of hyperbole, more than most examples). Or the fight between Russ and Magnus. Or Konrad Curze surviving a plummet through Nostramo. Or Leman Russ landing in a volcano. Or Mortarion being hit by a tank-mounted plasma cannon, and proceeding to tear the tank apart. All of this occurred outside of a novel.

Again, plot armor. They survived because they were main characters who had to survive to continue the story.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
[No, it's not "evidence" - but it has merit as a notable event. What's more likely when you board some random Chaos cruiser? That you meet a hundred Bloodthirsters and a hundred lascannons? Or that you encounter nothing but a bunch of frightened scrubs, frenzied cultists and a bunch of CSM line troops when you finally get to the bridge? Occam's razor.

I think that any battle requiring a Primarch leading the charge into combat isn't going to be just some random ass ship with normal troops.

Not that it really matters. If it took hundreds of "normal" Chaos worshippers to kill a single Primarch... How does that prove your point now?

Why would it have taken hundreds? How do you know he didn't charge into the boarding action and get shot in the face by a armsman with a shotgun? How do you know he was "required" to charge into battle and didn't just do it because he was emo, or honorable, or expected an easy victory?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

That's what the novels want to make you believe.

Or the description of Ferrus Manus's life (Which I'll admit very likely is a lot of hyperbole, more than most examples). Or the fight between Russ and Magnus. Or Konrad Curze surviving a plummet through Nostramo. Or Leman Russ landing in a volcano. Or Mortarion being hit by a tank-mounted plasma cannon, and proceeding to tear the tank apart. All of this occurred outside of a novel.

Where is your contradictory fluff on the physical capabilities of the Primarchs now?

The same place where Angron and some number of Bloodletters are banished by 100 GKTs, and Magnus is held off for a long while and "suffers the greatest wound he'd suffered since the Burning of Prospero" from five Marines and a Dreadnought, and Mortarian gets the Emperor's name carved into his heart by what amounts to a Chapter Master.

Heresy Betrayal sheds more light on this event.

To paraphrase the Emperor with a force of Custodes led the Luna Wolves and Horus on an attack on an Ork planet. Now this ork planet was rather special, it was entirely artificial, constructed from scrap etc and held together through some piece of Dark Age gravity tech. It was essentially a planet sized space hulk or ork rok.

On this planet the orks were of an immense size, nobs were as large as dreadnoughts. So a warboss of these was truly terrifying.

During the battle the emperor and his custodes become separated from the Luna Wolves and surrounded by orks. Battling for hours the Emperor is temporarily dazed/overcome be the sheer amount of firepower etc directed at him. (I assume his psychic shields gave out under the immense stress they were under). In his moment of weakness a warboss of these exceptional orks wrapped his paws around the emperor's neck. An instant later Horus was there and cut the ork's arms off.

It never says that the emperor was choking to death, or in mortal peril.

 Peregrine wrote:
Again, plot armor. They survived because they were main characters who had to survive to continue the story.

It isn't plot armour if it is consistent.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It isn't plot armour if it is consistent.

Nonsense. If you have a guardsman as the main character in a long series they're going to have consistent plot armor. It doesn't mean that guardsmen are invulnerable.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why would it have taken hundreds? How do you know he didn't charge into the boarding action and get shot in the face by a armsman with a shotgun? How do you know he was "required" to charge into battle and didn't just do it because he was emo, or honorable, or expected an easy victory?

And how do you know he didn't cut a hundred Bloodthirsters in half and pimp a Keeper of Secrets before he died?

It is all speculation, speculation that Lynata brought into the thread, not I.

The same place where Angron and some number of Bloodletters are banished by 100 GKTs, and Magnus is held off for a long while and "suffers the greatest wound he'd suffered since the Burning of Prospero" from five Marines and a Dreadnought, and Mortarian gets the Emperor's name carved into his heart by what amounts to a Chapter Master.

Oh, you mean that battle where Angron tore through five or more Grey Knight Terminators in single swipes of his sword, and this being the single greatest concentration of amplified GK power we've read about?

Oh, you mean that story where Magnus wasn't actually wholly summoned into the Materium, and he tears through the Space Wolves defense instantly, which had held up before then?

Oh, you mean that Chapter Master who rampages through the Warp destroying the realms of Chaos Gods?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Nonsense. If you have a guardsman as the main character in a long series they're going to have consistent plot armor. It doesn't mean that guardsmen are invulnerable.

Can you show me a guardsman taking direct hits from heavy weaponry consistently?

You have no contradictory fluff to disprove the notion that Primarchs are Greater Daemon+ level combatants. Stop pretending you do.

I agree that plot armour when it raises its head, can usually be contributed to some form of luck. Like how the bad guys always seem to miss. Even when they do hit, and a main character is thought dead... It turns out no vital organs were hit, and they make a full recovery. Maybe it should be called plot luck.

I think that is different to someone actually being described as tougher or better. For example Las fire bounces off terminator armour. Though a marine could be unlucky and get hit in the eye or something (which might happen if the firer had some plot luck). You don't generally need plot armour to survive a Las shot... Terminator armour will do just fine. As would being a superhuman Primarch.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Can you show me a guardsman taking direct hits from heavy weaponry consistently?

Of course it won't be direct hits. It will be barely dodging in time, or the magic shield just barely holding, or whatever. The point is that main characters, no matter who they are, no matter what genre they are in, always survive better than lesser characters.

You have no contradictory fluff to disprove the notion that Primarchs are Greater Daemon+ level combatants. Stop pretending you do.

I don't need any. An anti-tank missile will reduce a primarch-size being to a bloody mist. It doesn't matter how good you are at combat when a random soldier with a missile shoots you from a mile away, or calls in an artillery strike on you, or a bomber drops a tactical nuke on your battlefield, or whatever. If you get hit by that kind of weapon you're dead, and there are plenty of those weapons on the average battlefield.

The only way to survive that level of firepower is to cease to be anything that resembles a human. And since we don't see primarchs that are nothing more than AI programs uploaded into tank drones this is not the case.

 Peregrine wrote:
An anti-tank missile will reduce a primarch-size being to a bloody mist.

Prove this statement.