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This is a run through on my Nashcon list. Nashcon is 1999+1 with allies, no Forgeworld (which I think is important, as Forgeworld invalidates Drop Pods in my opinion)

SW with IG alies.

Primary. SW

HQ:
Rune Priest (no upgrades, powers selected at deployment. Usually going to be Jaws and LL/MH): 100

Elites:
Wolf Guard Pack: (3 PA with combi meltas, 1 TDA with combi melta and PA, 1 TDA with Combi Plas and PS, 1 TDA with Heavy Flamer and PA, DP): 218

Troops:
Grey Hunters Pack (7 GHs, WS, Plas, DP) 160 (TDA with Combi Plas and RP ride here)
Grey Hunters Pack (7 GHs, WS, Flamer, DP) 150 (TDA with Heavy Flamer rides here)
Grey Hunters Pack (10 GHs with WS, Plas, Plas, MOTW, DP) 220
Grey Hunters Pack (10 GHs with WS, Plas, Plas, DP) 205

HS
6 Long Fangs (5 ML, DP) 175
5 Long Fangs (4 ML, DP) 150

Allies: IG

HQ:
Company Command Squad (4 meltas) 90 (ride in a Vendetta)

Elites:
Guardsman Marbo: 65

Troops:
Vet Squad: (3 sniper rifles, Lascannon, forward sentires) 135

Fast Attack:
Vendetta Squadron (2): 260

Fortifications:
Aegis with Comms Relay: 70

Total: 1998

Seven drop pods, 2 Vendettas, Marbo. That's a lot of flexibility, a lot of dictating where the fight takes place. Rune Priest goes with TDA body guard into a Plas squad. TDAWG with melta stays with PA Meltas. TDAWG with Heavy Flamer goes to the flamer squad.

General plan. Long Fangs and vets start on the board, hugging cover and my aegis. Vets on an objective. Turn 1 the melta pod, the HQ pod, the flamer pod, and one of the plas/plas pods comes down (probably the one with MOTW in it) and overpower a flank. Melta pod is there to ensure first blood by popping whatever is scariest. Flamer pod is good for Hordes and/or enemy aegis lines. Later in the game the fifth pod can put GHs on an objective, or bring more guns where needed. Late game Vendettas can deposit melta death on something or contest.

Flexible options: If the enemy is wel bubble wrapped, I can drop the two empty pods and the two regular GH squads (on objectives), and make him break his bubble wrap. Comms relay lets me attempt to hold Vendettas/Marbo/Back up GHs to later in the game, if needed. (example. I'm going first and I want to shoot my Vendettas into a Helldrake, may want to hold them until turn 3)

Things I dont like: One squad has no MOTW/PW. Rune Priest has no Chooser. One Long Fang squad isn't at full strength. No mobility after t3 (minus the CCS)

Things I know people don't like: Vets with snipers. I agree that 99% of the time it's stupid. But I want them to camp an objective as far away as possible and still contribute. Snipers/lascannon mesh well, and are nice MC insurance.

Possible changes: Maybe drop the forward sentries from the vet squad? That restricts me to using them on the Aegis (2 up G2G is huge, and forward sentries lets me get that in ruins. That would free up points for a Chooser and another MOTW, or an additional Long Fang but at the expense of making the area behind my Aegis extremely crowded. Right now the gunline is very vulnerable turn 1, and forward sentires mitigates that.

Thoughts?

Bumping my own post, hoping for opinions.

Also think I'm going to drop 1 Melta from the CCS for a Chooser. COTS will come into play in most games (some games I turn my RP into an arty piece, really against anyone with a low av force, and some games he's key for denying infiltration), where as that fourth melta will only be a factor sometimes (I have to land the squadron, that has to have survived, and there needs to be a good melta target left on the board)

anonymou5 wrote:
(as Forgeworld invalidates Drop Pods in my opinion)

Interesting, why do you think that?

Elites:
Wolf Guard Pack: (3 PA with combi meltas)

Elites:
Guardsman Marbo: 65

Troops:
Vet Squad: (3 sniper rifles, Lascannon, forward sentires) 135

Here's currently what I don't like: Your advice for 4 PA combi-melta has been taken on board and I've found them to guarantee that kill every time they land. I think you should listen to your own advice. Marbo is cool, but do you not feel those 65pts could be better spent?
And you're right, I don't like the snipers. Harker and plasma would be better in my opinion for MC or deep strike defence (then you never have to GTG either).

No mobility after t3 (minus the CCS)

I agree, this could be an issue. However with good objective placement, you shouldn't have to worry too much.

Overall, it's a solid list. Not much I can pick out that's horribly wrong. Although your lack of counters to hordes may be an issue. Demons, nids and orks can all bring a lot of troops.

Interesting, why do you think that?

Prevalence of Interceptor AP2/3 in FW lists. Admittedly, Tau now bring the same issue to bear, but at least they have to make some hard choices on Interceptor. (Broadsides can't take it AND skyfire, Crisis suits are giving up a gun, or skyfire, etc, Riptide is either shooting a blast at BS3, which can be mitigated by dropping next to his troops, or three shots at AP3). Compared to Sabre or Hyperios Platforms which are twinlinked and don't give up skyfire. Sabre in particular are an issue, because a Guard gunline doesn't care about giving up mobility.

I could be wrong, but that's how I see the FW/Non-FW divide right now.

Here's currently what I don't like: Your advice for 4 PA combi-melta has been taken on board and I've found them to guarantee that kill every time they land. I think you should listen to your own advice. Marbo is cool, but do you not feel those 65pts could be better spent?
And you're right, I don't like the snipers. Harker and plasma would be better in my opinion for MC or deep strike defence (then you never have to GTG either).

It's still a 4 melta squad, only one has TDA now. I figure since my alpha strike isn't a single suicide pod anymore, the TDA plus PW is worth the points, that squad isn't going to eat an Army's worth of fire, and may get use of its extra stuff.

Does Harker's Devils upgrade stack with Forward sentries? If so, that's pretty damn good. The codex says Devil gives the squad "Stealth" and Forward Sentries says its grants Chamo Cloaks, which in turn grant stealth. I didn't think that would stack, so I'm not sure why I would never have to GTG? Still an excellent suggestion. Marbo works really well with the Rhino version of this list, but I guess I don't need guranteed linebreaker when I have seven Drop Pods. More on the Harker suggestion in a second.

I agree, this could be an issue. However with good objective placement, you shouldn't have to worry too much.

Overall, it's a solid list. Not much I can pick out that's horribly wrong. Although your lack of counters to hordes may be an issue. Demons, nids and orks can all bring a lot of troops.

I agree on issues with Hordes...although the Rhino version of this list annihilates Nids. Park GHs in cover, and shoot until they get close. Then Banner/CA at a higher I when they assault. I don't have a whole lot of experience with Demons or "good" Ork lists (I play Orks a lot, but no min maxed stuff)....

If I take Harker, maybe swap the Lascannon out for a HB, then I have a squad that's generating a ton of Dakka. And, let me know if this is stupid....maybe drop the CCS for a Primaris Psycher. Here/s what I'm thinking....

CCS melta death is a great trick, but I think it's more limited with an allied list (as my Vendettas are in a Squadron, so I have to land them both, hope one is'nt vector locked at an inconvenient time, etc....so that's 80 points of firepower that may never hit the board)

Harker with the Psycher gives me flexibility and more firepower on the board. Here's what I mean about flexibility.

Say I get first turn against Tau and I take Telepathy. If I get Pupper Master (or even the primaris), I can infilitrate them in range of a Riptide, and use his own Pie Plates against him, which helps the DP alpha strike. Counter that, if I face a horde, I take Lightning Arc, which coupled with the two HBs, is a ton of dakka coming out of ruins. Sometimes they camp the rear, sometimes they help the alpha strike. Infiltrate, stealth and a psycher is a pretty great combo.

Plus dropping Marbo, switching to a HB, swapping out the CCS for a Psycher gives me points to use on Plasma for the Vets (if I go that route, which while probably smartest I'm not totally against the snipers, if one of their main jobs is being annoying), and at least enough for a Lascannon Long Fang (probably two if I keep the Snipers). (and if Sentries and Devils doesn't stack, that's 30 more points)

Thanks for your comments. I wouldn't even have thought about Harker, he probably does make more sense in a DP list than Marbo (who is always a hero in my Mech lists) (now to figure out how to make a Valhallan Harker)

anonymou5 wrote:


Prevalence of Interceptor AP2/3 in FW lists.

Ah, I thought you had some awesome option for SW that I'd been missing. How do you normally get around it? I just go with my pods but play a bit more conservatively.

It's still a 4 melta squad, only one has TDA now.

didn't notice that, but yeah it's up there.

Does Harker's Devils upgrade stack with Forward sentries? If so, that's pretty damn good. The codex says Devil gives the squad "Stealth" and Forward Sentries says its grants Chamo Cloaks, which in turn grant stealth.

They do stack. Camo-cloaks give "+1 to cover save" as of the FAQ. Behind an aegis (or in ruins) you'd therefore get 2+ cover without ever going to ground.

I agree on issues with Hordes...although the Rhino version of this list annihilates Nids.

Maybe I'm underestimating bolter fire. I've not played pure SW in a while.

Say I get first turn against Tau and I take Telepathy. If I get Pupper Master (or even the primaris), I can infilitrate them

I agree on the CCS in the vendettas. It's awkward to place them both. I like the role of Harker: he provides a double bonus. You have infiltrate dakka, outflanking dakka or objective camping at home. Much better than Marbo IMO.
On the primaris: I like the idea. I've had some use out of a PP in ally lists before and this seems to be a good version. However, psychic shriek is horrible. It's just too short range to be of any use. However, the other powers are all pretty useful. Puppet Master is epic, and if you're close enough to get off a terrify on a low Ld unit (think firewarriors) you can force them off the table before shooting.
However remember the infiltrate rule an independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment. You'd have to outflank.

My experience with the PP is using him as a biomancer on MEQ. However with a unit that has 2+ cover, a 2+ LOS should keep him very safe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

(now to figure out how to make a Valhallan Harker)

Interesting, do post. I've found space marine scout arms look ok for the heavy bolter.

Ah, I thought you had some awesome option for SW that I'd been missing. How do you normally get around it? I just go with my pods but play a bit more conservatively.

Well, I'm mostly theory hammering here. I've only done one major tourney in 6ED, and it was no FW and all of the local tourneys are no FW. However, I'm moving soon, and the area I'm going to has a monthly tournament series that allows FW. I'm toying with going IG gun line plus SW counter assault.

Something like. Guard blob with RP. Sabre blob with LC. Vendettas and Vulture. Manticore or Basilisks or Russes. GHs. (probably in Rhinos for flexibility in grabbing objectives) Melta pod unit. Maybe a Lone Wolf for tar pitting. I'm still working on my Sabres, but I'm working them as Sabre/Hyperios Launchers, so I can run pure SW too and see how I like that. I'm also debating placing them all on a Skyshield in the tourneys that allow it, but I'd feel kind of wrong about it (with the LW hanging out underneath it, behind a leg, haha)

But if I did keep running all pods in a FW environment, I think the best bet would be to just put the pod between you and the Sabres, at least that way you get a cover save. It would just be frustrating to eat 10 TL LC shots on a drop pod squad and give up first blood with an alpha strike...

They do stack. Camo-cloaks give "+1 to cover save" as of the FAQ. Behind an aegis (or in ruins) you'd therefore get 2+ cover without ever going to ground.

That's pretty nasty...haha

I agree on the CCS in the vendettas. It's awkward to place them both. I like the role of Harker: he provides a double bonus. You have infiltrate dakka, outflanking dakka or objective camping at home. Much better than Marbo IMO.
On the primaris: I like the idea. I've had some use out of a PP in ally lists before and this seems to be a good version. However, psychic shriek is horrible. It's just too short range to be of any use. However, the other powers are all pretty useful. Puppet Master is epic, and if you're close enough to get off a terrify on a low Ld unit (think firewarriors) you can force them off the table before shooting.
However remember the infiltrate rule an independent character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment. You'd have to outflank.

Interesting, do post. I've found space marine scout arms look ok for the heavy bolter.

Well, I ran the first version of the list today against DA (the one with Marbo, although I did three Melta guns in the CCS and a COTS with the RP) and came out with mixed feelings. I'm sold on Harker, but I didn't have a Harker model so I didn't get to try him yet.

His list wasn't fully min maxed, but it was a pretty good match up for him versus me. I did win, but there were some issues. He had two LR Crusaders with Dakka banner (although no power field generator) (the Termie squad boarded up on turn 1 but didn't start embarked). A RW squad with plasma, three deep striking Termie squads (one with Belial), and the shroud generating speeder with the bikes.

Obviously model count killed him, but it was the scouring, so that helped him a bit. Well, my melta pod squad whiffed on a LRC on T1 (one glance). I only brought two Pods with Troops on turn 1, because I wanted to see how the attack on the LRs went before i committed forces (the empty pods are huge, I used them to block off the LRCs in case they didn't die, which they did not). The other squad hit a far objective. Anyway, point of this is, my CCS killed a Land Raider turn 3, and the Vendettas killed another. So....they may have sold me on keeping them. They're awkward to place, but when you need them, you REALLY need them.

Also, going second and only bringing two full pods down on turn 1 let me alpha strike all his Termies (just drop in right next to them). (as he was initially going second and decided to attempt to do the same to me, and hold his Dark Angels Deep Strike until turn 2, but then must have forgotten that and ended up stealing the initiative, haha) And running Jaws through Terminators in Deep Strike formation is just cruel. On Turn 2 I killed almost half his Army, just had to survive the LRCs for the top of 3 and then the game was essentially over.

Funny how we discussed Demons, as there is a really good Demon player in my area (he's placed high in a few national tournies), I've just never played him. Well, he wants to play test against me, so I'm going to try next week. I'm going to run Harker, but I think the meltas may have just earned a spot on the list.

As for converting Harker, I think I'm just going to use my Marbo, who is unfortunately not a Valhallan. But he looks like a crazy Russian, so he fits my Soviet theme, and his arm fell off today (which I took as a sign). So I think I'm just going to magnetize a HB arm on, and have a Marbo/Harker.

Edit: also, the snipers/las actually worked pretty well. Piddling off wounds on TDA each turn. They synergize nicely, and never got shot at because they were immediately dismissed. My Long Fangs all got dakka hurricane bannered off the board (well, one ML actually survived), and my Vet squad vastly outperformed them. Although if I add Harker I think it makes a lot of sense to take a second HB in htat squad instead of the las, for pure horde control. The snipers will work for being annoying, giving me two options in one cheap squad.

anonymou5 wrote:

They synergize nicely, and never got shot at because they were immediately dismissed.

This is what you want in a scoring unit really. Shame that snipers suck so bad. Fingers crossed for a sniper character in the new IG dex that buffs them.

Glad to hear it worked.

Played the demons (he brought IG allies) tonight, we set it on a 2.5 hour time limit to help simulate "tourney play" and we went with two Objectives for each player to make it the most fair of all possible scenarios.

TLDR, I lost (and at the risk of sounding internet tough guy, it's my first loss since January, and I learned a lot, I think). But it was fairly close (went six turns, he had one primary objective, slay the warlord, and linebreaker; I had no primary objectives, first blood, and linebreaker).

I don't know every unit in his list, but he had a huge squad of hounds with a herald, a Vendetta (with Veteran squad and Primaris), an Icarus behind an Aegis, a Soul Grinder, a Hydra Flak tank, Fateweever, some pink horrors, Seekers, the AP3 infantry demon troops, Marbo, some other things that didn't really come into play).

I really had no idea what to expect from the Demon codex, and I severely underestimated the Hounds (I knew they were tough, but wow). I ended up committing too many of my forces in his own deployment zone, which denied me any real shooting from my Long Fangs for 3-4 turns. I got really unlucky on the Warp Storm table, to the point he even laughed about it and felt bad....I lost my RP, I lost a ton of GHs (including a WS before a critical assault).

I feel like I could have won the game had I played just slightly differently, but ti's definitely a bad match up. Now I'm toying with adding a Manticore, but think I may be overreacting (I'd have to go to five pods to do it, which drops some tactical flexibility and alpha strike potential). I will say that GHs under standard can hold their own versus Hounds for one round (actually won an assault, but only by a few wounds), but that's just one turn. (we had a huge multi assault in his deployment area that ended up lasting multiple turns).

I think my major learning point is that sometimes I need to play less aggressively. I wish I could practice the list some more. I'm playing in a small tourney on Saturday, but I don't have time to finish my seventh pod by then (I proxied tonight, but refuse to do that in a tournament), and I kind of (through complicated nonsense) committed to trying something different. (IG with SW allies, two Vendettas and a Valk, air cav vet squads, three pods, Manticore, Marbo). I may get a rematch against this very Demon list though.