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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page

Specifically to yakface (and anyone else that voted B) how can you read

If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26.

And think that it applies to any initiative step outside the current one? Especially since its under the Start of Initiative Pile In?

Is it because it makes Hammer of Wrath less of a free hit?

Voted B because it's the only thing that makes sense.

Consider this situation:
A unit of I3 models is assaulted. The attacker unit is made up of mostly I3 models with a single I4 model in the back. Further, the attacker has Hammer of Wrath. Due to good movement, the I4 model is over 3" away from the combat.

I10 - Hammer of Wrath is resolved
I9 through I5 is skipped.
I4 - model attempt to pile in, but it is too far away to get into B2B. Defender has no I4 models. Combat ends. If HoW caused a wound, defender rolls leadership and is potentially swept never having had the ability to attack back: even though they currently have models in B2B.

This would be completely broken.

Rigeld - Im not sure how they can read B), as that requires ignoring the context of the pile in move sentence - which is the initiative step you are currently on must be sufficient to bring you into combat. It just tells you that BOTH players, if they have pile ins at step X, get to make pile ins, and one failing to make contact isnt sufficient to end combat if the other one moving would then bring them back into combat

Deleted for irrelevance.

Uh, I know it's a rare occurance, but I agree with Nos on this one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - Im not sure how they can read B), as that requires ignoring the context of the pile in move sentence - which is the initiative step you are currently on must be sufficient to bring you into combat. It just tells you that BOTH players, if they have pile ins at step X, get to make pile ins, and one failing to make contact isnt sufficient to end combat if the other one moving would then bring them back into combat

I agree with you here, and voted option A myself. I explained my position fully in that thread, but suffice to say that following anything other than RAW in this case can take away tactical advantages of using high init units. While there is definitely an element of randomness to this happening, you can easily manipulate the odds of it occurring to be very favorable, and use that to your strategic advantage.

Scenario: You're playing a high init army, say DE, and you're using a squad of only 3 reaver jetbikes(init 6). The enemy has a full unit of 10 nobs, led by a warboss. The orcs are in a line, with the warboss on the far left of the line. If the reaver jetbikes assault from the right side, coming into base contact with the 2 or 3 nobs on the far right, they resolve hammer of wrath. Should that not kill them, they move on with subsequent initiative steps. At init 6, they attack again, killing off the nobs in base contact. Since no further units act at init 6, it goes to init 5, at which point the warboss makes a pile in move towards the bikes, but fails to reach them. At this point, the further initiative steps would be lost, and the assault results would be tallied. As the orcs lost the combat by 6 wounds, they would take a morale test at leadership 3. Since they likely fail, the reavers and orcs make the sweeping advance check, and the entire unit of orc nobs + warboss get's sweeping advanced by 3 reaver jetbikes.

This is an extreme example, but is perfectly possible with good positioning and tactics. It's primarily using high initiative as a way to avoid being struck back at, while increasing the probability of performing a sweeping advance.

Even against units that prevent sweeping advance from being useful(SM), this ruling has tactical advantages for high init units. Take a unit of hellions with stunclaw attacking a unit of terminators + SM captain, for example. The same setup as before, the hellions hit the right side of a line, and between their hammer of wrath and init 6 attacks, manage to take out a termy, leaving them out of base contact. Init 5, the space marine captain can't reach base contact with the hellions. Combat is declared concluded, and SMs roll for morale. They pass. Since it's the end of the assault now, the hellions declare that they're withdrawing with hit&run, taking the space marine captain 3d6 inches away now, behind cover so they don't have to deal with the termies at the same time as the SM captain.

Sorry for the rant. I just see this as a fundamental issue where RAW and RAI are quite arguably the same, and any discussion to change that seems highly unfavorable to finesse armies.

The rule seems totally clear to me as rigeld and Nos said. Not sure what yak was really after in his poll...

I voted B.

p22, bottom right, bolded: "Work your way through the Initiative values of the models in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest." (Note that the word "engaged" was removed via the FAQ.) There is no caveat for models that are or aren't engaged. It's all models, regardless of base contact.

p23, top: "At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move." This, combined with the previous quote, means that every single model will get a 3" Pile In, regardless of whether or not said model is engaged.

I cannot see anywhere that restricts models from making a Pile In. I do see explicit permission for models to make a Pile In, even when not in base contact with the enemy.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
p23, top: "At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move." This, combined with the previous quote, means that every single model will get a 3" Pile In, regardless of whether or not said model is engaged.

I cannot see anywhere that restricts models from making a Pile In.

That would be the next two sentences after the one you quoted...

If the models at that initiative step have insufficient movement to get into base contact, the combat ends and any remaining initiative steps are lost.

If there is a whole Initiative Step where no models can get into base contact, then combat ends.

If Seekers charged a Tac Squad. Seekers HoW at I10, killing all models in base contact and lots more. Seekers get a 3" Pile In at Step 5, and fail to get base contact. Since there are no engaged models at the end of Step 5, combat ends. There was 1) an Initiative Step with models at that Initiative and 2) no engaged models at that step; thus, the combat ends.

Combat ends when a Step is ended and no models were engaged at any point during that Step. Skipped Steps do not count for this.

Spot on.

Well then, I voted incorrectly. Poop.

yeah... rules are very clear, if at any step, after both sides make pile ins, if no models are engaged, you resolve combat...

reading that the rules say to move down to the next step is simply reading it wrong,

rigeld2 wrote:
...how can you read

If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26.

And think that it applies to any initiative step outside the current one?

"Would be" is how I can think that. How can you read "(that's more than 6" - very unlikely!)" and think it applies in such a way as to make it merely 3" in most cases?

Unusual to see so much consensus, so directly contradicting RaW.

Cos that's a throw away comment about an implied situation where 2 units strike at the same initiative.

Pyrian wrote:
"Would be" is how I can think that. How can you read "(that's more than 6" - very unlikely!)" and think it applies in such a way as to make it merely 3" in most cases?

It's only 3" if only one side has anyone with that initiative.

At each initiative step, you move models with that initiative. If, after those moves are completed, you have no models in base contact, combat ends and further unitiative steps are lost.


If you are going to allow successive initiaitive steps, what does the bit about successive initiative steps being lost mean?

 insaniak wrote:

If you are going to allow successive initiaitive steps, what does the bit about successive initiative steps being lost mean?

This. I honestly don't even understand how there is any confusion. RAW is clear, and there have been many examples given of how that can be tactically advantageous for high init units. There have also been examples given of how it can be non-advantageous to low init units. There is nothing wrong with this. Having high init is SUPPOSED to be better.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Well then, I voted incorrectly. Poop.

You did not. The poll was for how you would play it, not what RAW was.

Pyrian wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
...how can you read

If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26.

And think that it applies to any initiative step outside the current one?

"Would be" is how I can think that. How can you read "(that's more than 6" - very unlikely!)" and think it applies in such a way as to make it merely 3" in most cases?

Unusual to see so much consensus, so directly contradicting RaW.

Nothing is contradicted.
How are all initiative steps lost if you go ahead and pile them all in anyway?

Pyrian wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
...how can you read

If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that's more than 6" - very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost - work out the assault result as described on page 26.

And think that it applies to any initiative step outside the current one?

"Would be" is how I can think that. How can you read "(that's more than 6" - very unlikely!)" and think it applies in such a way as to make it merely 3" in most cases?

Unusual to see so much consensus, so directly contradicting RaW.

Nothing contradicts RAW. In fact your position directly and absolutely contradicts the rule that remaining I steps are lost - instead you are going through the stages when explicitly and directly told not to. Please show how that is "RAW", at all.

Parens statements are not the rule, and this is in fact (as denoted by the "very unlikely!") most definitely a throwaway - it is telling you that, at any one I step, both sides get to try to pile in - one side failing to pile in at I4 does not stop the other sides I4 models from trying to pile in. Only if both chances at any I step fail do you stop

So please, show the RAW we are contradicting, and explain how you are NOT contradicting explicit rules by your position.

The circumstances where this issue would comeare absolutely absurd. Hammer of Wrath requires you to be in case contact with the model you are assaulting, in order for this to happen the unit would have to be massively out of coherency, and as in the rulebook it states that if a unit is out of coherency it must use its movement phase to get back in to coherency, failing that it must run in its shooting phase to get back in to coherency.

It would require a cong line of weak mass infantry like cultists in a conga line, almost semicircle shaped being shot at from the round edge by another squad, wiping out virtually the whole squad, which then pass their morale test.

Although possible, unless the two opponents are playing in order for this to occur i don't see how it could. I've only looked in to this quickly in regards to HoW wording and re-establishing unit coherency but there are probably more measures in place that I overlooked.

Actually its massively easy, with a strung out unit. HoW does NOT limit casualties to only those in b2b, this is simply another attack that only models in Base at I10 get to make - after that you follow normal wound allocation rules for close combat: start with those in base and move away

This is *very* easy to have happen

I see what you mean by limited to b2b i suppose if you had a rank of 5 boyz assaulted by 10 assault marines with 2 marines to each base, they could still kill 10 boyz even though the other 5 aren't in b2b.

Yep, thats how it works. And for squishy guys like Orks you can easily end up clearing your zone, like the old 4th ed engagement zone

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - Im not sure how they can read B), as that requires ignoring the context of the pile in move sentence - which is the initiative step you are currently on must be sufficient to bring you into combat. It just tells you that BOTH players, if they have pile ins at step X, get to make pile ins, and one failing to make contact isnt sufficient to end combat if the other one moving would then bring them back into combat

I agree with you here, and voted option A myself. I explained my position fully in that thread, but suffice to say that following anything other than RAW in this case can take away tactical advantages of using high init units. While there is definitely an element of randomness to this happening, you can easily manipulate the odds of it occurring to be very favorable, and use that to your strategic advantage.

Scenario: You're playing a high init army, say DE, and you're using a squad of only 3 reaver jetbikes(init 6). The enemy has a full unit of 10 nobs, led by a warboss. The orcs are in a line, with the warboss on the far left of the line. If the reaver jetbikes assault from the right side, coming into base contact with the 2 or 3 nobs on the far right, they resolve hammer of wrath. Should that not kill them, they move on with subsequent initiative steps. At init 6, they attack again, killing off the nobs in base contact. Since no further units act at init 6, it goes to init 5, at which point the warboss makes a pile in move towards the bikes, but fails to reach them. At this point, the further initiative steps would be lost, and the assault results would be tallied. As the orcs lost the combat by 6 wounds, they would take a morale test at leadership 3. Since they likely fail, the reavers and orcs make the sweeping advance check, and the entire unit of orc nobs + warboss get's sweeping advanced by 3 reaver jetbikes.

This is an extreme example, but is perfectly possible with good positioning and tactics. It's primarily using high initiative as a way to avoid being struck back at, while increasing the probability of performing a sweeping advance.

Even against units that prevent sweeping advance from being useful(SM), this ruling has tactical advantages for high init units. Take a unit of hellions with stunclaw attacking a unit of terminators + SM captain, for example. The same setup as before, the hellions hit the right side of a line, and between their hammer of wrath and init 6 attacks, manage to take out a termy, leaving them out of base contact. Init 5, the space marine captain can't reach base contact with the hellions. Combat is declared concluded, and SMs roll for morale. They pass. Since it's the end of the assault now, the hellions declare that they're withdrawing with hit&run, taking the space marine captain 3d6 inches away now, behind cover so they don't have to deal with the termies at the same time as the SM captain.

Sorry for the rant. I just see this as a fundamental issue where RAW and RAI are quite arguably the same, and any discussion to change that seems highly unfavorable to finesse armies.

So because the Warboss failed to reach the reavers during his pile in it will never get to the initiative step that allows the nobs to pile in?

No. It's tough but that's how the rules work.

@Buckeye: Correct. In order for this to happen, 3 things must occur:

1. There are no models from either unit in base contact with an enemy at the beginning of an initiative step.
2. A model from one of the engaged unit must make a pile-in move at said initiative step, or it is skipped.
3. When any models who could pile-in at the given initiative step do so, if they are still not in base contact with an enemy, all further initiative steps are lost. Resolve that combat round.

Now, to be clear, this doesn't necessarily end the assault, just the combat. Unless a unit falls back, the following turn will begin at initiative 10 again with pile-in moves.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:


Now, to be clear, this doesn't necessarily end the assault, just the combat. Unless a unit falls back, the following turn will begin at initiative 10 again with pile-in moves.

Not quite true. Just to clarify;

They still get the end of combat pile in moves. (which are likely to get some of them back in base to base)

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Buckeye: Correct. In order for this to happen, 3 things must occur:

1. There are no models from either unit in base contact with an enemy at the beginning of an initiative step.
2. A model from one of the engaged unit must make a pile-in move at said initiative step, or it is skipped.
3. When any models who could pile-in at the given initiative step do so, if they are still not in base contact with an enemy, all further initiative steps are lost. Resolve that combat round.

Now, to be clear, this doesn't necessarily end the assault, just the combat. Unless a unit falls back, the following turn will begin at initiative 10 again with pile-in moves.

Wow, thanks for your earlier post, we have been playing it wrong all along. I can see how it won't happen to much but I can also see how you can take advantage of this.

Jangustus wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:


Now, to be clear, this doesn't necessarily end the assault, just the combat. Unless a unit falls back, the following turn will begin at initiative 10 again with pile-in moves.

Not quite true. Just to clarify;

They still get the end of combat pile in moves. (which are likely to get some of them back in base to base)

Oh, quite right. Sorry about that. That is assuming, that neither unit falls back. Basically, after step 3 I listed, you follow the normal steps for combat resolution as if you had just finished initiative 1.

Buckyeye6 wrote:

Wow, thanks for your earlier post, we have been playing it wrong all along. I can see how it won't happen to much but I can also see how you can take advantage of this. So if the Nobs pile in and are 1" away from the reavers they are still technically in the assault and everyone will restart the pile in sequence in the next combat phase?

Yes, but only if they pass their morale test. If they fail their morale test, they retreat, and may get caught in a sweeping advance. Plus the end of combat pile-in, as described by Jang. And you're very welcome.