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I feel it is best for me to just start a discussion on this instead of derailing other threads.

You need to read within the rules of English(many if not all rules in the BRB are written with them), wherein the 1st sentence of a paragraph establishes the subject of the paragraph, all further sentences must be written in regards to this subject; or a new paragraph must be started.

The subject in the first sentence is "Battle brothers", and that same sentence defines that subject as "Friendly units".

Further, one must understand that the bullet points are part of the sentence that contains the colon immediately prior to their listing: "This means, for example, that battle brothers:".

Now, since the bullet points are all further expansions of what Battle brothers mean, and "Battle Brothers" in this paragraph are already defined as "Friendly units" then we can apply those 2 cases: The third bullet point says that even allied friendly units cannot embark in their allies transports.

Now as far as the refutes that an IC joined to a unit somehow changes that unit to no longer be what it is; I point you to Page 39 of the BRB, ICs, First Column, last paragraph: "While an Independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." So The IC does not change the unit at all he becomes a part of that unit wholly(this is why Fortune can be cast on a unit of guardians with an attached Archon or Ethereal) and for this reason the Attached Battle brother even ceases to be a battle brother while attached(he is, for example, a Fire Warrior).

You will find that you use the structure of writing when you read most rules in the BRB, Some quick and random examples:
- Measuring Distances, BRB, page 4; Where what is the case?
- Armor saves(BRB Page 16) does it with bullet points; Both discussing the d6 result in comparison to the Armour save stat as established by the preceding first sentence.
- Moving Chargers after the Initial charger also does it with bullet points and the Colon, all referencing back to the subject of Chargers after the first, and that those bullet points are a list of conditions that must be met by those chargers.
- every rule of every unit type is read with paragraph structure in mind or you will have no idea what the individual sentences are talking about.

I see this as wishlisting. I don't have the BRB within front of my, but you can't share transports. BB cannot ride in their allies transports. You're IC, regardless if attached to a unit, is still a BB. He's not getting in that sweet ride.

Or more simply put, if you have to pick the grammar apart, you're probably going to far. I see 40k as a permissive rules set. Unless it says you can, assume you cannot.

 TheKbob wrote:
I see this as wishlisting. I don't have the BRB within front of my, but you can't share transports. BB cannot ride in their allies transports. You're IC, regardless if attached to a unit, is still a BB. He's not getting in that sweet ride.

Or more simply put, if you have to pick the grammar apart, you're probably going to far. I see 40k as a permissive rules set. Unless it says you can, assume you cannot.

I had to explain the grammar, not pick it apart; my initial reading was that only Battle brother units could not embark.

I think Battle Brothers must more comprehensively be read to include all models in the allied detachment, not just when they're in their own units, although that's the predominant case.

If GW meant for that prohibition just to apply to units of Battle Brothers, they could certainly have used the phrasing "units of Battle Brothers", or otherwise employed the word units, as they did in the preceding bullet point, and in one of the bullet points under AoC.

Yet by the same token if they meant to change the subject of the paragraph they could have simply stated "not even battle brothers models..."

That would be completely unambiguous.

I will not gnash and rail should GW address this in an FAQ in favor of the Battle brothers models; but until then this is up for debate.

Do a poll. No one who is honest and understands the rules will agree with you.

I am honest and understand the rules.

Also I do not want a poll; I want a discussion.

Your using 'grammar' as an explanation, when we all know that GW can't write a clear rule to save their lives?

A poll will show exactly how few agree with you. There is nothing here to discuss.

 Ghaz wrote:
Your using 'grammar' as an explanation, when we all know that GW can't write a clear rule to save their lives?

No, I think he's using context. Which is not a bad argument, although I disagree with it. As I said before, I can agree that there's some ambiguity here. But I personally think the intent is for the prohibition to apply to all Battle Brothers, not just ones in their own units, and I jut think in ambiguous cases we have to err on the side of caution and take the less-powerful interpretation.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A poll will show exactly how few agree with you. There is nothing here to discuss.

You may be surprised. If there was a poll I would like to see "RAW" and "HYWPI". I agree with Kommissar Kel, not bsed on his argument but the fact that an IC is treated as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes. While I think the rules are on my side, as I've stated before, I don't play it that way.

The IC is always a Battle Brother. The wording is explicit and there's no getting around it.

I don't see how an attached IC prevents a unit from getting into their own transport if attached.

LandRaider Pilot ---," Sorry Kantor you can't bring our own stinking allies into our land raider esp. not accompanied by our own troops. GET OUT DIRTY ALLY LOVER. I hate when Chapter Masters try and pull that crap."

Somethings may not be in the rules but for the sheer common sense of it I would allow even if it went against me.

Since there is a question here at all I would allow it. I can't see an attached IC changing the unit to just a friendly unit.

The attached IC doesn't change the unit at all. He is simply something that is not allowed in the transport, due to being a battle brother. It's not really any different in that respect to not being allowed on board because the IC is wearing terminator armour.


Meanwhile, I disagree with Kel's grammar assessment. There is nothing in that section of the rules that suggests that every time they use the term 'battle brother' they mean 'battle brother unit'.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I feel it is best for me to just start a discussion on this instead of derailing other threads.

Now as far as the refutes that an IC joined to a unit somehow changes that unit to no longer be what it is; I point you to Page 39 of the BRB, ICs, First Column, last paragraph: "While an Independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." So The IC does not change the unit at all he becomes a part of that unit wholly(this is why Fortune can be cast on a unit of guardians with an attached Archon or Ethereal) and for this reason the Attached Battle brother even ceases to be a battle brother while attached(he is, for example, a Fire Warrior).

Even on this subject, "Archon joining an Eldar Unit and reaping the benefits of fortune", many if not most of the Tournament rule sets and communities have ruled out that it can Only affect the "Eldar part of the unit", meaning if a Dark Eldar IC joins an Eldar unit, the unit can be targeted as normal with fortune but the IC cannot benefit from it.

As far as your main point, "Battle Brother" definition for the most part of the community means: BB Allied IC, BB Allied units and in general any and all BB Models count as Battle Brothers. And that distinguishable feature doesn't change their unit type nor their distinct ratial nature (which is explained in the specific chosen ally codex).

Moreover, the acclamation that BB's are Friendly Units is wrong, they are not Friendly units, BUT they ARE TREATED AS friendly units for the bulletpoints that follow that distinction plus in any other case that the definition "FRIENDLY UNITS" is refered to in the BRB.
This cases are two:
1) In the objectives section in the brb. which explains what counts as scoring and denial, by indirectly including them with the rule: ALL units from the troops organisation (it doesn't say primary, secondary or allied it means any and all) chart count as scoring etc.. and ALL units (including troops) are denial etc. and
2)In the section for the Warlord traits, which introduces the wording "Friendly Units" and means all units that are yours to command and not your opponents.

Hope this clears it for you.
Just my 2cent.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So The IC does not change the unit at all he becomes a part of that unit wholly(this is why Fortune can be cast on a unit of guardians with an attached Archon or Ethereal) and for this reason the Attached Battle brother even ceases to be a battle brother while attached (he is, for example, a Fire Warrior).

This is where you have taken an incorrect logical leap.

Just because an IC counts as being a member of a unit does not mean any other rules/abilities/etc that this model has are jettisoned. Even if the model is joined a unit, he is STILL an allied battle brother model within that unit.

And given that IC battle brothers are never allowed to embark on their allies transports, this is always disallowed, no matter what.

If you are claiming that the independent character is no longer a"battle brother" because he is now part of a unit that itself is not a battle brother then, in your opinion, what happens if say a space marine IC joins an IG unit, is he still a space marine for the purpose of preferred enemy etc? Or are you trying to say that he now counts as a guardsmen?

Personally I think you are trying to create holes in GWs rules (granted its not hard to do) and thier intention was that no alliescan be transported at all..... that being said I oove the thought process and you do have a valid argument

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I feel it is best for me to just start a discussion on this instead of derailing other threads.

You need to read within the rules of English(many if not all rules in the BRB are written with them), wherein the 1st sentence of a paragraph establishes the subject of the paragraph, all further sentences must be written in regards to this subject; or a new paragraph must be started.

The subject in the first sentence is "Battle brothers", and that same sentence defines that subject as "Friendly units".

Further, one must understand that the bullet points are part of the sentence that contains the colon immediately prior to their listing: "This means, for example, that battle brothers:".

Now, since the bullet points are all further expansions of what Battle brothers mean, and "Battle Brothers" in this paragraph are already defined as "Friendly units" then we can apply those 2 cases: The third bullet point says that even allied friendly units cannot embark in their allies transports.

Now as far as the refutes that an IC joined to a unit somehow changes that unit to no longer be what it is; I point you to Page 39 of the BRB, ICs, First Column, last paragraph: "While an Independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." So The IC does not change the unit at all he becomes a part of that unit wholly(this is why Fortune can be cast on a unit of guardians with an attached Archon or Ethereal) and for this reason the Attached Battle brother even ceases to be a battle brother while attached(he is, for example, a Fire Warrior).

You will find that you use the structure of writing when you read most rules in the BRB, Some quick and random examples:
- Measuring Distances, BRB, page 4; Where what is the case?
- Armor saves(BRB Page 16) does it with bullet points; Both discussing the d6 result in comparison to the Armour save stat as established by the preceding first sentence.
- Moving Chargers after the Initial charger also does it with bullet points and the Colon, all referencing back to the subject of Chargers after the first, and that those bullet points are a list of conditions that must be met by those chargers.
- every rule of every unit type is read with paragraph structure in mind or you will have no idea what the individual sentences are talking about.

Kel, I have a few questions for you. I don't play Eldar so I will use an IG/Ultramarine example since i am familiar with them.

Since these two armies are BB, if Tigurius (IC, Librarian) joins an IG Platoon, what are the Characteristic stats for Tigurius since he is now a guardsman?
What wargear does he have, since he is no longer a Space Marine?
Is he still a Librarian? If yes then what level is he?

Keep in mind, that according to the IC rules, only Special Rules are kept by the IC, not wargear, not Stats not even Unit type.

40k-noob wrote:


Kel, I have a few questions for you. I don't play Eldar so I will use an IG/Ultramarine example since i am familiar with them.

Since these two armies are BB, if Tigurius (IC, Librarian) joins an IG Platoon, what are the Characteristic stats for Tigurius since he is now a guardsman?
What wargear does he have, since he is no longer a Space Marine?
Is he still a Librarian? If yes then what level is he?

Keep in mind, that according to the IC rules, only Special Rules are kept by the IC, not wargear, not Stats not even Unit type.

I am now imagining Tigurius seeing a 50 man strong platoon, a glint comes to his eyes, he pushes the release latches on his power armor, and softly, on the sweet winds of the battlefield, says...

"It's naked time!"

40k-noob wrote:
Kel, I have a few questions for you. I don't play Eldar so I will use an IG/Ultramarine example since i am familiar with them.

Since these two armies are BB, if Tigurius (IC, Librarian) joins an IG Platoon, what are the Characteristic stats for Tigurius since he is now a guardsman?
What wargear does he have, since he is no longer a Space Marine?
Is he still a Librarian? If yes then what level is he?

Keep in mind, that according to the IC rules, only Special Rules are kept by the IC, not wargear, not Stats not even Unit type.

Whilst I don't agree with the OP (I believe that the rule was intended to be BB models, not BB units - my opinion is irrelevant in any case), nothing says that being part of a unit means it has to have the statline of the majority. After all, in a unit of Orks (for example) you can have models with different saves, wounds, strength etc. Ditto for wargear and 'being a Librarian'.

Quanar wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Kel, I have a few questions for you. I don't play Eldar so I will use an IG/Ultramarine example since i am familiar with them.

Since these two armies are BB, if Tigurius (IC, Librarian) joins an IG Platoon, what are the Characteristic stats for Tigurius since he is now a guardsman?
What wargear does he have, since he is no longer a Space Marine?
Is he still a Librarian? If yes then what level is he?

Keep in mind, that according to the IC rules, only Special Rules are kept by the IC, not wargear, not Stats not even Unit type.

Whilst I don't agree with the OP (I believe that the rule was intended to be BB models, not BB units - my opinion is irrelevant in any case), nothing says that being part of a unit means it has to have the statline of the majority. After all, in a unit of Orks (for example) you can have models with different saves, wounds, strength etc. Ditto for wargear and 'being a Librarian'.

Units or models it doesn't matter. IC's are units themselves as well.

Kel would have us believe that the IC rules magically transform a Space Marine into a Guardsman. That the SM is no longer a unit of his Army(thus no longer a Battle Brother). Something which is not allowed by any rules in the BRB nor any Codex.

I have another question.

what happens if an IG Commissar and a SM Captain join up? What are they( the new Unit of two)? Guardsmen or Space Marines?

You make a compelling argument Kel. I would love to see some further clarification on this issue from GW.

That being said, standard accepted practice seems to be against you. THAT being said, if I played you, I would totally let you do it.

40k-noob wrote:

Quanar wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Kel, I have a few questions for you. I don't play Eldar so I will use an IG/Ultramarine example since i am familiar with them.

Since these two armies are BB, if Tigurius (IC, Librarian) joins an IG Platoon, what are the Characteristic stats for Tigurius since he is now a guardsman?
What wargear does he have, since he is no longer a Space Marine?
Is he still a Librarian? If yes then what level is he?

Keep in mind, that according to the IC rules, only Special Rules are kept by the IC, not wargear, not Stats not even Unit type.

Whilst I don't agree with the OP (I believe that the rule was intended to be BB models, not BB units - my opinion is irrelevant in any case), nothing says that being part of a unit means it has to have the statline of the majority. After all, in a unit of Orks (for example) you can have models with different saves, wounds, strength etc. Ditto for wargear and 'being a Librarian'.

Units or models it doesn't matter. IC's are units themselves as well.

Kel would have us believe that the IC rules magically transform a Space Marine into a Guardsman. That the SM is no longer a unit of his Army(thus no longer a Battle Brother). Something which is not allowed by any rules in the BRB nor any Codex.

I have another question.

what happens if an IG Commissar and a SM Captain join up? What are they( the new Unit of two)? Guardsmen or Space Marines?

I didn't say Tigerius becomes a guardsman; I said he becomes a member of the Platoon Infantry Squad; he retains his statline just like the Heavy Weapons Team has its own statline, The commissar has his own statline, and the Sgt has his own statline. Also several of those have their own weapons and/or Special rules.

To make the Absurdity; "Oh so they become the same model", is no where near "They become a full member of the unit", which the rules clearly state they do. A model in a unit is a model in the unit and uses that models statline, Wargear, and special rules(otherwise you have no sgt, commissar, Special nor heavy in any unit, they would all be whatever the majority is with the base majority's wargear stats and rules).


Yakface: The IC rules clearly state that The IC "Counts as a part of the unit joined for all rules purposes" Being a Battle brother is not a Special Rule possessed by the model, it is a state of being. When the IC joins a unit(let's continue the SM IC with a unit of Guardsmen) he becomes a member of the Unit jopined. Can a guardsman unit embark on a Chimera: yes, yes it can.

Also if we really pay attention to the first sentence it is define ":Battle Brothers" outside of the Matrix as an Allied Friendly unit, if you do not have an allied unit, you do not have a "Battle Brother" to be thus forbidden. So either way you look at it, you have no Battle Brother to be forbidden within the unit; the unit is legal to embark.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


I didn't say Tigerius becomes a guardsman; I said he becomes a member of the Platoon Infantry Squad; he retains his statline just like the Heavy Weapons Team has its own statline, The commissar has his own statline, and the Sgt has his own statline. Also several of those have their own weapons and/or Special rules.

To make the Absurdity; "Oh so they become the same model", is no where near "They become a full member of the unit", which the rules clearly state they do. A model in a unit is a model in the unit and uses that models statline, Wargear, and special rules(otherwise you have no sgt, commissar, Special nor heavy in any unit, they would all be whatever the majority is with the base majority's wargear stats and rules).


Yakface: The IC rules clearly state that The IC "Counts as a part of the unit joined for all rules purposes" Being a Battle brother is not a Special Rule possessed by the model, it is a state of being. When the IC joins a unit(let's continue the SM IC with a unit of Guardsmen) he becomes a member of the Unit jopined. Can a guardsman unit embark on a Chimera: yes, yes it can.

Also if we really pay attention to the first sentence it is define ":Battle Brothers" outside of the Matrix as an Allied Friendly unit, if you do not have an allied unit, you do not have a "Battle Brother" to be thus forbidden. So either way you look at it, you have no Battle Brother to be forbidden within the unit; the unit is legal to embark.

Ahh...but you did say that.

You said, "..for this reason the Attached Battle brother even ceases to be a battle brother while attached(he is, for example, a Fire Warrior)."
Substitute Tigurius and Guardsman for the DE/Eldar example you used and you said this, "...for this reason the Attached Battle brother(Tigurius) even ceases to be a battle brother(Space Marine) while attached(he is, for example, a Guardsman)."

Also you can't cite the Heavy weapons team or a Sgt in a squad as examples, HWT and Sgt's are not IC's, they cannot leave or join other squads, so lets try to stick to the subject at hand.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Yakface: The IC rules clearly state that The IC "Counts as a part of the unit joined for all rules purposes" Being a Battle brother is not a Special Rule possessed by the model, it is a state of being. When the IC joins a unit(let's continue the SM IC with a unit of Guardsmen) he becomes a member of the Unit jopined. Can a guardsman unit embark on a Chimera: yes, yes it can.

Except if we went with your reasoning here, the IC would have to give up all his own special rules when he joins a BB unit since you are saying "counts as a part of the unit for ALL rules purposes". The IC's special rules are still 'rules' and your interpretation would necessitate him giving them up when joining the allied unit so that he could fulfill this requirement you are placing on him (erroneously IMO)... Doing this (if we follow your reasoning) is cherry-picking which rules you want to use and which not...

Edit- clarity, spelling

40k-noob wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


I didn't say Tigerius becomes a guardsman; I said he becomes a member of the Platoon Infantry Squad; he retains his statline just like the Heavy Weapons Team has its own statline, The commissar has his own statline, and the Sgt has his own statline. Also several of those have their own weapons and/or Special rules.

To make the Absurdity; "Oh so they become the same model", is no where near "They become a full member of the unit", which the rules clearly state they do. A model in a unit is a model in the unit and uses that models statline, Wargear, and special rules(otherwise you have no sgt, commissar, Special nor heavy in any unit, they would all be whatever the majority is with the base majority's wargear stats and rules).


Yakface: The IC rules clearly state that The IC "Counts as a part of the unit joined for all rules purposes" Being a Battle brother is not a Special Rule possessed by the model, it is a state of being. When the IC joins a unit(let's continue the SM IC with a unit of Guardsmen) he becomes a member of the Unit jopined. Can a guardsman unit embark on a Chimera: yes, yes it can.

Also if we really pay attention to the first sentence it is define ":Battle Brothers" outside of the Matrix as an Allied Friendly unit, if you do not have an allied unit, you do not have a "Battle Brother" to be thus forbidden. So either way you look at it, you have no Battle Brother to be forbidden within the unit; the unit is legal to embark.

Ahh...but you did say that.

You said, "..for this reason the Attached Battle brother even ceases to be a battle brother while attached(he is, for example, a Fire Warrior)."
Substitute Tigurius and Guardsman for the DE/Eldar example you used and you said this, "...for this reason the Attached Battle brother(Tigurius) even ceases to be a battle brother(Space Marine) while attached(he is, for example, a Guardsman)."

Also you can't cite the Heavy weapons team or a Sgt in a squad as examples, HWT and Sgt's are not IC's, they cannot leave or join other squads, so lets try to stick to the subject at hand.

Yes, and Fire warrior is the name of the Unit.

He is of the unit Fire warrior, sorry if you misunderstood me(purposefully of otherwise); I should have said he was part of the "Fire warrior Team"

But then, If you fail at the context of my example, I can understand how you fail to comprehend the context of the rules we are talking about.

So 40k noob shows that you did in fact post that the BB ceases to be a BB and becomes (in your example) a fire warrior, and your response is to insult?

Your really proving your case...

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


I didn't say Tigerius becomes a guardsman; I said he becomes a member of the Platoon Infantry Squad; he retains his statline just like the Heavy Weapons Team has its own statline, The commissar has his own statline, and the Sgt has his own statline. Also several of those have their own weapons and/or Special rules.

To make the Absurdity; "Oh so they become the same model", is no where near "They become a full member of the unit", which the rules clearly state they do. A model in a unit is a model in the unit and uses that models statline, Wargear, and special rules(otherwise you have no sgt, commissar, Special nor heavy in any unit, they would all be whatever the majority is with the base majority's wargear stats and rules).


Yakface: The IC rules clearly state that The IC "Counts as a part of the unit joined for all rules purposes" Being a Battle brother is not a Special Rule possessed by the model, it is a state of being. When the IC joins a unit(let's continue the SM IC with a unit of Guardsmen) he becomes a member of the Unit jopined. Can a guardsman unit embark on a Chimera: yes, yes it can.

Also if we really pay attention to the first sentence it is define ":Battle Brothers" outside of the Matrix as an Allied Friendly unit, if you do not have an allied unit, you do not have a "Battle Brother" to be thus forbidden. So either way you look at it, you have no Battle Brother to be forbidden within the unit; the unit is legal to embark.

Ahh...but you did say that.

You said, "..for this reason the Attached Battle brother even ceases to be a battle brother while attached(he is, for example, a Fire Warrior)."
Substitute Tigurius and Guardsman for the DE/Eldar example you used and you said this, "...for this reason the Attached Battle brother(Tigurius) even ceases to be a battle brother(Space Marine) while attached(he is, for example, a Guardsman)."

Also you can't cite the Heavy weapons team or a Sgt in a squad as examples, HWT and Sgt's are not IC's, they cannot leave or join other squads, so lets try to stick to the subject at hand.

Yes, and Fire warrior is the name of the Unit.

He is of the unit Fire warrior, sorry if you misunderstood me(purposefully of otherwise); I should have said he was part of the "Fire warrior Team"

But then, If you fail at the context of my example, I can understand how you fail to comprehend the context of the rules we are talking about.

So then that begs the question, is Tigurius, while joined to the IG unit, still a Space Marine as defined by his army list entry in the SM Codex?

edit: spelling

He has all of his special rules, stats, wargear, and unit type, but is for all rules purposes a member of the Guard Platoon infantry squad.

This is the same as a Lord Commissar joined to a Platoon Infantry Squad; he retains his Special rules, Unit Type, Stats, and Wargear , but is for all rules purposes a member of the Platoon Infantry Squad

Barbobot; I pointed out that the context of a statement is important and if you were to take the statement out of context you either prove you are making a nonsense argument(if you did it on purpose), or you cannot understand the concept to begin with(if you , in fact did not understand the statement, especially when the whole statement is about context)

And still a battle brother, therefore can not embark.

Unless you are saying he is no longer a battle brother, but there needs to be some rules that say that, there have not been any thus far.