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2500 Vampire Counts

LORDS

Master Vampire -
Mathias Rivendare (Lore of Vampires)
heavy armour, shield, Barded Nighmare, lvl 4, red fury, quickblood, Beguile
Talisman of Preservation, Sword of Might, Dragonhelm, Book of Arkhan
TOTAL
=553


HEROES

Vampire -
Bodhi (Lore of Vampires)
lvl 2, Heavy Armour, Quickblood
Charmed Shield, Opal Amulet, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon/Warrior Bane
TOTAL
=224


CORE

Skeleton Warriors x 69
spears, FC, Banner of the Eternal Flame
TOTAL
=385

Zombies x 20 (Can combine the zombie units into one block of 40, leftover points from muso/standard into skeles)
Musician, Standard
TOTAL
=70

Zombies x 20
Musician, Standard
TOTAL
=70

Dire Wolves x 5
Champion
TOTAL
=50

Dire Wolves x 5
Champion
TOTAL
=50



SPECIAL

Spirit Host

Spirit Host


Black Knights x 9 [Mathias]
barding, lances, FC, Banner of Swiftness
TOTAL
=279

Crypt Horrors x 6


RARE

Vargulf


SUB TOTAL
=2174

AND EITHER

1.
Blood Knights x 5

Cairn Wraith

+Beguile for Bodhi

GRAND TOTAL
=2499


OR

2.
Hex Wraiths x 5

Vargulf

GRAND TOTAL
=2499

Looks aight.

Looks pretty good.
I'd go with option 1;
Only instead of the wraith, I'd drop the 2nd vampire to a level 1, and then add a necromancer (level 1) and another black knight.

That would give you a full unit of 10 black knights and another back up wizard (and another invoke).

With both units of knights, you could stick the level 4 in with the blood knights if you're not facing warmachines, giving the black knights their ethereal movement back.
It's a nice option to have during deployment.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Looks pretty good.
I'd go with option 1;
Only instead of the wraith, I'd drop the 2nd vampire to a level 1, and then add a necromancer (level 1) and another black knight.

That would give you a full unit of 10 black knights and another back up wizard (and another invoke).

With both units of knights, you could stick the level 4 in with the blood knights if you're not facing warmachines, giving the black knights their ethereal movement back.
It's a nice option to have during deployment.

-Matt

Hi HawaiiMatt,

Thanks for surfing by Some thoughts on your suggestions.

1. A full unit of black knights with ethreal movement would be quite tactically powerful. However I am aware that if I transfer my lord to the blood knights, they *will* be shot at by everything possible. The banner of blood keep is way too expensive, yet with the small unit size and the vampiric invoke rules, I wont be able to recover my losses enough to benefit from LOS.

2. Needed you to clarify with the necromancer. Where was he supposed to be placed? In the zombie unit or the skeleton unit? The reason why I went with a vampire is because:

- VC armies need to close combat with the enemy ASAP.

- Necromancers are exposed in CC. I don't understand the reason why I would fork out for a zombie bunker, only to *never* commit it to battle.
They may be weak, but that is effectively a 70 point investment to protect a Necromancer. Hardly ideal :(

- Therefore, a Vampire fledgling can perform the role of a support caster whilst not dying to a slight breeze. The Cairn Wraith was there for bodyguard duties/extra CR/terror.
Beguile would function as an additional layer of defense for the fledgling.

 iLLiTHiD wrote:

1. A full unit of black knights with ethreal movement would be quite tactically powerful. However I am aware that if I transfer my lord to the blood knights, they *will* be shot at by everything possible. The banner of blood keep is way too expensive, yet with the small unit size and the vampiric invoke rules, I wont be able to recover my losses enough to benefit from LOS.

2. Needed you to clarify with the necromancer. Where was he supposed to be placed? In the zombie unit or the skeleton unit? The reason why I went with a vampire is because:
- VC armies need to close combat with the enemy ASAP.
- Necromancers are exposed in CC. I don't understand the reason why I would fork out for a zombie bunker, only to *never* commit it to battle.
They may be weak, but that is effectively a 70 point investment to protect a Necromancer. Hardly ideal :(
- Therefore, a Vampire fledgling can perform the role of a support caster whilst not dying to a slight breeze. The Cairn Wraith was there for bodyguard duties/extra CR/terror.
Beguile would function as an additional layer of defense for the fledgling.

1) Don't commit your characters during list design, do it during deployment. Adding 1 more black knights gives you the option of splitting off the lord, when your in a game where splitting off makes sense.

2a) Not all vampire lists need to close into combat ASAP. You need to close in early enough to win, but going too soon can result in units being ground to dust rather than ending with a few models. Summoning makes holding back very viable. If you're fighting an enemy with little shooting, holding back for another turn of summoning before combat makes a lot more sense then charge in a turn earlier. If you're fighting an army where your summoning outruns their shooting, holding back again makes sense.
2b) A bunker unit of zombies is 60-70 points. It's not a huge investment. By late game, it can be large enough to commit to combat. If you factor in channeling, it is a good deal. Over the course of a game, you will average another power die and dispel die.
2c) 4+ armor, ignore 1 hit and 4+ward 1/use will die to a slight breeze. It will just take a 2nd round of combat to finish him. I know, because it's the gear I give my thrall on coven throne (only I get 3+ armor for being mounted). More often than not, dead by the end of the 2nd round of combat. Beguile pairs well with a challenging vampire, not that great on a casting support vampire. It's rank and file that a T4 4+ save model should be worried about.

Another thing to think about with your vampire. For his cost and his gear, you could get a necromancer and a wraith. By splitting the combat from the casting, you get 3S5 attacks on an ethereal model (or chill touch), and the same casting ability, that now you can hide from early combats, for 4 points CHEAPER.

After running vampires a lot, I noticed a few things. Vampire Heroes on foot tend to die. If you want melee combat character, take Wraith/Wight, if you want infantry summons, take necromancer. If you want both, take both. If you want mobile casting, take vampire hero on barded steed. The only way I got infantry vampire to pay off is with double mortis engines and a corpse cart. Maximizing this, I ran my vampires at 108 points a shot, extra hand weapon (otherwise naked). They'd get the regeneration from the mortis engines and the ASF from the cart. It added enough hitting power to be very useful, and while not super survivable, the redundancy made up for the rest (had 4 vampire heroes (1 is a BSB with 2+ armor), 1 necromancers, master necro, Ghoul King and 1 wraith hero in the list). 2 of the thralls had lore of shadow for the Lore Attribute to jump the ghoul king in where needed.

Anyhow, back to your list. I'd seriously consider retasking your vampire hero. Giving him a barded horse so he can support your lord is a very good use. Keeping the summoning around the general is a good idea anyway. If you want to keep casting support by the infantry, then the necro & wraith/wight combo is better.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 iLLiTHiD wrote:

1. A full unit of black knights with ethreal movement would be quite tactically powerful. However I am aware that if I transfer my lord to the blood knights, they *will* be shot at by everything possible. The banner of blood keep is way too expensive, yet with the small unit size and the vampiric invoke rules, I wont be able to recover my losses enough to benefit from LOS.

2. Needed you to clarify with the necromancer. Where was he supposed to be placed? In the zombie unit or the skeleton unit? The reason why I went with a vampire is because:
- VC armies need to close combat with the enemy ASAP.
- Necromancers are exposed in CC. I don't understand the reason why I would fork out for a zombie bunker, only to *never* commit it to battle.
They may be weak, but that is effectively a 70 point investment to protect a Necromancer. Hardly ideal :(
- Therefore, a Vampire fledgling can perform the role of a support caster whilst not dying to a slight breeze. The Cairn Wraith was there for bodyguard duties/extra CR/terror.
Beguile would function as an additional layer of defense for the fledgling.

1) Don't commit your characters during list design, do it during deployment. Adding 1 more black knights gives you the option of splitting off the lord, when your in a game where splitting off makes sense.

Ah, so you mean to say I should think about running him in and out of the unit? If the BloodK's get hit too much, jump him over to the BK's?

HawaiiMatt wrote:
[
2a) Not all vampire lists need to close into combat ASAP. You need to close in early enough to win, but going too soon can result in units being ground to dust rather than ending with a few models. Summoning makes holding back very viable. If you're fighting an enemy with little shooting, holding back for another turn of summoning before combat makes a lot more sense then charge in a turn earlier. If you're fighting an army where your summoning outruns their shooting, holding back again makes sense.
2b) A bunker unit of zombies is 60-70 points. It's not a huge investment. By late game, it can be large enough to commit to combat. If you factor in channeling, it is a good deal. Over the course of a game, you will average another power die and dispel die.
2c) 4+ armor, ignore 1 hit and 4+ward 1/use will die to a slight breeze. It will just take a 2nd round of combat to finish him. I know, because it's the gear I give my thrall on coven throne (only I get 3+ armor for being mounted). More often than not, dead by the end of the 2nd round of combat. Beguile pairs well with a challenging vampire, not that great on a casting support vampire. It's rank and file that a T4 4+ save model should be worried about.

Another thing to think about with your vampire. For his cost and his gear, you could get a necromancer and a wraith. By splitting the combat from the casting, you get 3S5 attacks on an ethereal model (or chill touch), and the same casting ability, that now you can hide from early combats, for 4 points CHEAPER.

After running vampires a lot, I noticed a few things. Vampire Heroes on foot tend to die. If you want melee combat character, take Wraith/Wight, if you want infantry summons, take necromancer. If you want both, take both. If you want mobile casting, take vampire hero on barded steed. The only way I got infantry vampire to pay off is with double mortis engines and a corpse cart. Maximizing this, I ran my vampires at 108 points a shot, extra hand weapon (otherwise naked). They'd get the regeneration from the mortis engines and the ASF from the cart. It added enough hitting power to be very useful, and while not super survivable, the redundancy made up for the rest (had 4 vampire heroes (1 is a BSB with 2+ armor), 1 necromancers, master necro, Ghoul King and 1 wraith hero in the list). 2 of the thralls had lore of shadow for the Lore Attribute to jump the ghoul king in where needed.

Anyhow, back to your list. I'd seriously consider retasking your vampire hero. Giving him a barded horse so he can support your lord is a very good use. Keeping the summoning around the general is a good idea anyway. If you want to keep casting support by the infantry, then the necro & wraith/wight combo is better.

-Matt

Thanks again for your input. I appreciate the wisdom of your experience (I'm an old player from 5th ed considering taking the hobby up again).

I've had a thought about what you mentioned of the foot vampire, and I've come to agree. I will run the numbers again tonight and see what combos I can create with lvl 1 necros + wraith: potentially fielding them in split zombie units but within range of the main skeleton[or ghoul] unit. If I position the necro on a corner of a unit, then place the wraith next to him for bodyguard duty, that should minimise exposure.

I'm also considering the possibility of fielding a mounted WK to run in the BK unit...as he has access to the skeletal steed mount too which won't break the ethereal movement rule. I'll update this post later once I've got more solid numbers.

 iLLiTHiD wrote:

Ah, so you mean to say I should think about running him in and out of the unit? If the BloodK's get hit too much, jump him over to the BK's?

If adding 1 more black knight gives you more options, it's worth doing.

I've had games with dense buildings (we rolled up 4 buildings for terrain). It was so thick, I didn't need to worry about LOS, the buildings let me hide the vampire lord.
What I did have trouble with was getting all my infantry through the gaps, and having a unit of black knights be able to bypass that whole mess is really useful.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 iLLiTHiD wrote:

Ah, so you mean to say I should think about running him in and out of the unit? If the BloodK's get hit too much, jump him over to the BK's?

If adding 1 more black knight gives you more options, it's worth doing.

I've had games with dense buildings (we rolled up 4 buildings for terrain). It was so thick, I didn't need to worry about LOS, the buildings let me hide the vampire lord.
What I did have trouble with was getting all my infantry through the gaps, and having a unit of black knights be able to bypass that whole mess is really useful.

-Matt

2500 Vampire Counts

LORDS - 553

Master Vampire - Mathias Cronqvist (Lore of Vampires)
Heavy Armour, Shield, Barded Nightmare, lvl 4, Red Fury, Quickblood, Beguile
Talisman of Preservation and;
A: Ogre Blade, Other Trickster's Shard
OR
B: Sword of Might, Dragonhelm, Ruby Ring of Ruin


HEROES - 260

Necromancer - Agahnim (Lore of Vampires)
Book of Arkhan

Necromancer - Azariah (Lore of Vampires)
Dispel scroll

Cairn Wraith

Cairn Wraith


CORE - 625

Skeleton Warriors x 69
spears, FC Banner of the Eternal Flame

Zombies x 20
Musician, Standard

Zombies x 20
Musician, Standard

Dire Wolves x 5
Champion

Dire Wolves x 5
Champion


SPECIAL = 623

Spirit Host

Spirit Host

Crypt Horrors x 6

Black Knights x 10
barding, lances, FC, Banner of Swiftness

Vargiests x 3


RARE

Blood Knights x 5
Banner of Blood Keep

GRAND TOTAL = 2524

1
...still struggling with points. If I take the Blood Knights, then I feel obliged to take the Banner of Blood Keep (as there are only 5 of them, and the lord...the unit *will* attract missile fire). I could shave off the points by dropping the Banner of Swiftness and one of the unit command from the black knights...help!

2
What to do with core? Now that I'm not running the fledgling vampire, I'm left with 69 skeletons and 2 zombie bunkers for the necro+wraith combo. What's your suggestion for tidying up core?

I run blood knights pretty often now. I go without the standard.
IMO, the standard is a suckers bet. Adding the standard is making the unit so expensive, it must die. Usually my general ends up in the blood knights, but I've also stuck him with the blood dragons or Crypt Horrors before, if cannon-sniping isn't a problem. I usually have the blood knights run up a flank and then cut back to combo charge with the other heavy hitters (black knights, coach, or crypt horrors) as those guys don't give up easy combat res.

What to do with core?
Depends on your opponent. But I'd most likely stick both wraiths in with the skeletons, and hide the zombies behind. I'd put both necromancers in one bunker of zombies, and beef up the other one (via invoke) to act as a roadblock for your flank.

I ran banner of swiftness a few times on the black knights and found it unneeded. M8 is enough. What you might want to do is drop it, drop the blood knight banner and pick up the +1 to hit banner for the black knights.
That would put you at 2484 points. Gleaming pendant (5 pts) isn't a bad idea of blood knights. If they operate alone, the re-roll on a failed frenzy check is well worth 5 pts.

For the lord, I'd shift ruby ring to a necromancer, and spend those last 10 points on upgrading the sword of might to the sword of anti-heroes. Any of your knights or crypt horrors will do fine against anything that doesn't have heroes. Against characters, that sword of anti-heroes on a red fury ASF vampire is amazing. Remember it is +1 Attack and Strength for each enemy touching you or your unit.
Just have the champ take the challenge and kill 8 to 14 rank and file.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I run blood knights pretty often now. I go without the standard.
IMO, the standard is a suckers bet. Adding the standard is making the unit so expensive, it must die. Usually my general ends up in the blood knights, but I've also stuck him with the blood dragons or Crypt Horrors before, if cannon-sniping isn't a problem. I usually have the blood knights run up a flank and then cut back to combo charge with the other heavy hitters (black knights, coach, or crypt horrors) as those guys don't give up easy combat res.

What to do with core?
Depends on your opponent. But I'd most likely stick both wraiths in with the skeletons, and hide the zombies behind. I'd put both necromancers in one bunker of zombies, and beef up the other one (via invoke) to act as a roadblock for your flank.

I ran banner of swiftness a few times on the black knights and found it unneeded. M8 is enough. What you might want to do is drop it, drop the blood knight banner and pick up the +1 to hit banner for the black knights.
That would put you at 2484 points. Gleaming pendant (5 pts) isn't a bad idea of blood knights. If they operate alone, the re-roll on a failed frenzy check is well worth 5 pts.

For the lord, I'd shift ruby ring to a necromancer, and spend those last 10 points on upgrading the sword of might to the sword of anti-heroes. Any of your knights or crypt horrors will do fine against anything that doesn't have heroes. Against characters, that sword of anti-heroes on a red fury ASF vampire is amazing. Remember it is +1 Attack and Strength for each enemy touching you or your unit.
Just have the champ take the challenge and kill 8 to 14 rank and file.

-Matt

Hi Matt,

Thanks again for your input. I seem to always see your name about the forums, you busy bee

I conceed your point on the Blood Knights. Running them on the 'cheap' will limit the VP's they may give away; it becomes more of an issue of keeping them out of the firing range as much as possible before combat. The Vargiests as war machine hunters will help with this.

The Gleaming Pendant is a great idea considering how cheap it is! Although, I don't know how often they would be running it alone. I also agree with your suggestion on the use of the Banner of the Barrows for the BK. The reroll to hit will make them that much more fearsome

Regarding core. Prehaps I had misunderstood you, but I thought that running the cairn wraiths alongside the necros as 'bodyguards' was the idea of protecting them from direct combat challenges, whilst the zombies themselves shielded them from missile fire. It also provides the benefit of two sources of terror (as opposed to the single unit of terror).

The ring was mostly to protect the lord from getting bogged down in combat with chaff. If I were to run it on a necro, it would end up replacing the book of arkhan - deal breaker?

Necromancers will get killing by rank and file, having somebody take a challenge won't help.
Best use is to use the wraiths in another unit to win combat, so that the zombie bunker in the back with the necromancers is safe.
2 Wraiths in a skeleton unit is fearsome.

You don't want the zombie bunker in combat.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Necromancers will get killing by rank and file, having somebody take a challenge won't help.
Best use is to use the wraiths in another unit to win combat, so that the zombie bunker in the back with the necromancers is safe.
2 Wraiths in a skeleton unit is fearsome.

You don't want the zombie bunker in combat.

-Matt

So skeleton block up front with twin cairn wraiths to character assassinate/CR, one zombie bunker hides behind the skeletons with the necros, and the second zombie unit holds a flank. Got it

If I've got my numbers right, dropping the banner of blood keep & dropping the standard of swiftness, then adding the banner of the barrows to the BK's gives me 15 points to play with. As you've mentioned, gleaming pendant is a nice 5 pointer for the times i roll snake eyes. that would give me 10 left over, to upgrade a crypt horror to a champ for a 2499 total. Sound like a worthy investment? Alternatives would be getting a unit champ for the BlK's, or running the standard of swiftness for the BlK.

The champ in the crypt horrors is always worth it.
With 4 poison attacks and a stomp, he might take out enemy characters in a challenge and pick up the bonus points.
Since he'll keep coming back, you'll get several tries.

I like to build my vampire lists with options. The armies hitting power is largely in the characters. Having as many options where to put those characters makes the list stronger and more flexible.

Like those two wraiths. If you need more of a hammer in a game, stick them in with the Crypt Horrors. The skeletons will suffer, so hold them back longer. Getting 6 S5 attacks can really help out the crypt horrors.
It's not something to do every game, but something you can decide on when you are placing heroes. You're opponent might have something lined up that can deal with crypt horrors, but toss in the heroes, and suddenly it's a problem.

Best of all, you can't cannon a wraith (barring daemons/dwarves).

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
The champ in the crypt horrors is always worth it.
With 4 poison attacks and a stomp, he might take out enemy characters in a challenge and pick up the bonus points.
Since he'll keep coming back, you'll get several tries.

I like to build my vampire lists with options. The armies hitting power is largely in the characters. Having as many options where to put those characters makes the list stronger and more flexible.

Like those two wraiths. If you need more of a hammer in a game, stick them in with the Crypt Horrors. The skeletons will suffer, so hold them back longer. Getting 6 S5 attacks can really help out the crypt horrors.
It's not something to do every game, but something you can decide on when you are placing heroes. You're opponent might have something lined up that can deal with crypt horrors, but toss in the heroes, and suddenly it's a problem.

Best of all, you can't cannon a wraith (barring daemons/dwarves).

-Matt

Whoops, I think in calculating that last 15-16 point spend, I forgot that the Blood Knights needed to purchase a standard bearer in order to use the Gleaming Pendant
That would put me at 2499, sadly no Crypt Horror champ gets to play today :(

I did another small tweak. If I do run the two Cairn Wraiths in the skeleton unit, I decided to drop the unit to 68 skeletons (+2 for the wraiths to make it 10 wide, 7 deep). With the extra points, I swapped out the Banner of the Eternal Flame for a Lichbone Pendant...MR1 might help the skeletons resist some of the magic firepower bound to head its way (massive infantry unit with 2 ethreal characters are going to get targeted with spells). Running the unit with spears due to its larger size I still feel is a virtue over the parry save (correct me if I'm wrong, but horded spears are allowed to fight 3 ranks deep? )

This does leave me with one final dilemma - how to kit out my lord? Without the banner, I have no sources of flaming attacks. I return to the proposed use of the Ruby Ring of Ruin on the lord...is this a good idea or not? My choices seem to be:

1. Ogreblade + TOTS - straight up slaughter
2. Sword of Anti-Heroes + Dragonhelm + TOTS - slightly more survivable
3. Ironcurse Icon
4. Sword of Might + Dragonhelm + Earthing Rod/Ruby Ring of Ruin - Fire damage & chaff clearer
5. ??

I'd go sword of anti-heroes. With both flavors of knights, you have plenty of S6 and S7 hitting power. You should be winning combat, unless you run into an enemy character or two, where the extra attacks and strength means total death to his rank and file (or one of the characters).

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'd go sword of anti-heroes. With both flavors of knights, you have plenty of S6 and S7 hitting power. You should be winning combat, unless you run into an enemy character or two, where the extra attacks and strength means total death to his rank and file (or one of the characters).

-Matt

Thanks for the lord advice. How about the switching of the Banner of the Eternal Flame for the Lichbone Pendant? Will no flaming attacks hurt me?
Also, should I be running the skeletons with sword and shield for parry, or spears for the extra fighting rank?

My vote is always sword and shield on skeletons, though the difference between spears and parry saves is VERY small.

 Tangent wrote:
My vote is always sword and shield on skeletons, though the difference between spears and parry saves is VERY small.

I only run skeletons with my mortis engines. So spears and 5+ regen for me.

-Matt

Why only run skeletons with MEs? Do you not consider them worth taking at all, or something, unless you can have spears AND a save of some sort?

Tangent wrote:My vote is always sword and shield on skeletons, though the difference between spears and parry saves is VERY small.

Sword and shield seems to be the general consensus that I've read up on other forums (and here). The role of skeletons are to be tarpits, and a parry save lends itself to this end.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
My vote is always sword and shield on skeletons, though the difference between spears and parry saves is VERY small.

I only run skeletons with my mortis engines. So spears and 5+ regen for me.

That was my original thinking back when I was writing up a ME list. I was given the impression from the forum that ME's are far too exposed to artillery to be used - but seeing as you use two, I'd love to hear your thoughts on them. I'm guessing you'd use invoke spam with GG, CH and spear skeles, maybe run some vargiests/terrorgiests to silence enemy artillery?

Tangent wrote:Why only run skeletons with MEs? Do you not consider them worth taking at all, or something, unless you can have spears AND a save of some sort?

This got me thinking about subbing the skeletons out entirely for ghouls. I can tweak the list to drop a BK (run the lord with them), and use the points to buy 38 ghouls (with a ghast) for the 2 wraiths to run with. That would be a fairly brutal combat unit. The reason why I was looking at skeletons in the first place is their ability to use a magical banner. I've currently planned for them to use the Lichebone Pennant for MR to assist shielding the wraiths. Is this worth it? Would the ghoul unit hold up to combat as well as the skeletons will?

I mean, skeletons obviously fill the "in-between" role between zombies and ghouls. Zombies are cheaper and come back faster, but are worse in combat. Ghouls are more expensive and come back at the same rate as skeletons, but they're better in combat.

Skeletons are a little more killy than zombies but less-so than ghouls, and are cheaper for it. Plus, skeletons are the only core VC troops that can take magic banners.

I don't know what's more durable - ghouls with toughness 4 and no save (do they have regen? I can't remember) or skeletons with toughness 3 and 5+/6++. They're probably about the same.

What's the Lichbone Pendant? Is that in the main rulebook? And if it gives MR, then no, it isn't worth it.

 Tangent wrote:
I mean, skeletons obviously fill the "in-between" role between zombies and ghouls. Zombies are cheaper and come back faster, but are worse in combat. Ghouls are more expensive and come back at the same rate as skeletons, but they're better in combat.

Skeletons are a little more killy than zombies but less-so than ghouls, and are cheaper for it. Plus, skeletons are the only core VC troops that can take magic banners.

I don't know what's more durable - ghouls with toughness 4 and no save (do they have regen? I can't remember) or skeletons with toughness 3 and 5+/6++. They're probably about the same.

What's the Lichbone Pendant? Is that in the main rulebook? And if it gives MR, then no, it isn't worth it.

The Lichebone Pennant is the MR banner. I chose it mostly because I needed to spend 15 points to get my core. Which banner is best to run with skeletons?

There are a few choices. A lot of people run the Screaming Banner from the VC book. Some people like the banner of swiftness that increases your movement. I can't remember which other ones are under 25 points that might be worth taking...

 Tangent wrote:
There are a few choices. A lot of people run the Screaming Banner from the VC book. Some people like the banner of swiftness that increases your movement. I can't remember which other ones are under 25 points that might be worth taking...

Flaming attacks.

Oh yeah, good one.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
There are a few choices. A lot of people run the Screaming Banner from the VC book. Some people like the banner of swiftness that increases your movement. I can't remember which other ones are under 25 points that might be worth taking...

Flaming attacks.

The reason why I had the MR banner was I needed 15 points to round out my core, whilst keeping a 7x10 formation (68+2 wraiths). If I drop to Eternal Flame, I'm 5 points underspending on core. I could take swiftness, but without march it seems kinda pointless.
Is MR 1 really that worthless?

You could always go with a 7*10 + 1 formation ... except if you suffer from some obsessional compulsive behaviour that is :p Then you'd be able to reach your core while taking the flaming banner

TanKoL wrote:
You could always go with a 7*10 + 1 formation ... except if you suffer from some obsessional compulsive behaviour that is :p Then you'd be able to reach your core while taking the flaming banner

Obsessional compulsive disorder? Yup...thats me
I think I would twitch violently if I had a lone skeleton at the back...I wonder if I can do the numbers better with ghouls?

Something like

38 ghouls and a ghast (+2 wraiths for 4*10), that puts me at 2504...Aiya

Yes, MR really is that useless. The thing is... 70 skeletons is a LOT of skeletons. Dropping a couple of skeletons and buying a better, more expensive banner makes that unit FAR more useful than a mere couple extra skeletons would. If you were, for some reason, worried about the skeletons' numbers, you could try to find room for Master of the Dead on one of your necromancers. But I wouldn't be worried about the numbers, honestly.

 Tangent wrote:
Yes, MR really is that useless. The thing is... 70 skeletons is a LOT of skeletons. Dropping a couple of skeletons and buying a better, more expensive banner makes that unit FAR more useful than a mere couple extra skeletons would. If you were, for some reason, worried about the skeletons' numbers, you could try to find room for Master of the Dead on one of your necromancers. But I wouldn't be worried about the numbers, honestly.

Hi Tangent,

Ok, so forget about the Lichbone Pennant...I can't decide if screaming banner of flaming attacks is better
how about this:

A.)
68 skeletons (+2 wraiths), FC, Banner of the Eternal Flame
+2 zombies (in bunker unit, deployed 6 by 4)
=2500

OR

B.)
68 skeletons (+2 wraiths), FC, Screaming Banner
-Standard bearer/musician from non-bunker zombie list
=2499