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So today I got challenged by an Eldar player at my local GW. I actually challenged him last week, and he wanted to play a game today. so i thought "sure, why not?" He was pretty fun to talk to the times he was in the GW, and I heard his army was good, so I brought my Dark Angel's A list.

and we got into a good 1850pt game, using the Primary and Secondary mission thing (purge the alien and Relic) and the game was off to a very good start. But as I started to use all my combinations I brought and used, he kinda started to get more and more angry. towards the end he even started to say "Hurry up and Finish this so I can play a FUN game" right in front of me.

I'm actually taken aback by all this. one, because it was one of the closest games I played in a long time. I had to really rake my mind for every single tactic I could use, like preserving units and using combos. I had fun with coming up all these counters and moves against him. And two, He brought a big army of Ilyandan. Full of Wraithguard, a Wraithlord, and even the Avatar!

People started to gather around at the sound of the guy flipping out, and in the final turn of the game some guy came up and mentioned that I made a rule mistake and gave sammuel the relic. He and my opponent started to flip out about me "putting it back in the middle" even though I had it for about 6 turns and it affected the whole game.

I finally couldn't take it anymore, and forfeit. I was actually really disappointed in it, and the guys that where watching where talking about how "broken" my gak was.

Here, let me post the list I used (in a spoiler so this doesn't get put into the army list topic)



So the Primary objective was a draw at the very end, with me picking up the Relic objective (I count that, even with my accidental rule mix up. If I knew that right away, I would have passed it to a new douche that was right next to him). so the core was 4-1, with a 3 point victory.

Are my combinations really broken? I know they are good, that's why I put them together (there are a lot of power players at my GW) and used them.

Also. at the end he started hating on me for not telling him what all my bikers had, I know it's a silly thing to say, but I really didn't expect to have to give a list of each and every special rule they have without being asked. if he would have asked, sure, I would tell him their Jink save, that they had hit and run, and so on. I also told him how my banner and RW grenade launchers work before the game, but he was still angry as ever at it.

Sorry I'm venting, I just feel very sad and kinda hurt by this :/ I can safely say, this was the first time I had to quit because of the opponent.

Sometimes players like this exist: they're fun, friendly, and get along with everyone. As long as they're winning. Once they start losing, that's when they become jerks. It wasn't a "fun" game for him when it was a close game and you had to play hard to pull ahead? That sounds like a good game to me. You played with a D-bag, by the sounds of it. Of course, this is only your side and he may feel differently. I can only offer suggestions based on what you say. Good luck, and if it was that bad, I'd avoid playing him in the future.

You are complaining because people didn't like a game against you in which you nade at least one severe and game changing rule mistake? Go figure

Players should however discuss what kind of game they are having before they play. I've been stuck in situations where my fun list has gone against some power list and gotten trashed. And *occasionally* the opposite - neither is fun for either player.

I'm very much a casual/fun gamer and hate playing with or against power lists. But theres nothing there I imagine I'd take any issue with - just looks like "land speeder", "bikes", "land raider", and "pie plate dropper", all pretty standard stuff.

Whats the trick here? Unless that librarian gives them all 2++ saves or some gak I don't see anything wrong here. And even if it does, as long as both players are aware of the type of game being played, then thats totally fine.

As for the relic thing, if it actually made a difference then it's something to think about. But if there was some troop model right next to your character, they can just go cry more. Not to mention how goddamn massive and complex the rules are - its very easy to forget any one rule and it's his job as much as yours to pick up on that. Putting it back in the middle is a load of gak either way though.

 motyak wrote:
You are complaining because people didn't like a game against you in which you nade at least one severe and game changing rule mistake? Go figure

Woooo! I needed that! woooohoo!

anyways, I didn't know, and the opponent didn't catch it until it was very late in the game. I apologized about that though, and at least now I will know how to play in the future.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Players should however discuss what kind of game they are having before they play. I've been stuck in situations where my fun list has gone against some power list and gotten trashed. And *occasionally* the opposite - neither is fun for either player.

I'm very much a casual/fun gamer and hate playing with or against power lists. But theres nothing there I imagine I'd take any issue with - just looks like "land speeder", "bikes", "land raider", and "pie plate dropper", all pretty standard stuff.

Whats the trick here? Unless that librarian gives them all 2++ saves or some gak I don't see anything wrong here. And even if it does, as long as both players are aware of the type of game being played, then thats totally fine.

As for the relic thing, if it actually made a difference then it's something to think about. But if there was some troop model right next to your character, they can just go cry more. Not to mention how goddamn massive and complex the rules are - its very easy to forget any one rule and it's his job as much as yours to pick up on that. Putting it back in the middle is a load of gak either way though.

Alright, that is more of what I needed to hear. And basically, everything is supposed to work together. The BoD gives bolters salvo 2/4, so the hurricane bolters and the bike's bolters are all putting out 24 shots per squad.

the Power field gives a 4++ to anything within 3", so I had him hide behind the LRC the entire game. I think it started to go downhill when I wiped T2 Guardians off the board with a salvo.

Also, his list was very mean too. lots of high Toughness things I couldn't even touch.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Sometimes players like this exist: they're fun, friendly, and get along with everyone. As long as they're winning. Once they start losing, that's when they become jerks. It wasn't a "fun" game for him when it was a close game and you had to play hard to pull ahead? That sounds like a good game to me. You played with a D-bag, by the sounds of it. Of course, this is only your side and he may feel differently. I can only offer suggestions based on what you say. Good luck, and if it was that bad, I'd avoid playing him in the future.

We have a guy like that in our group too. He's an okay guy, but when he plays the game he turns into a douche just about every single time he even gets into a close game. Unless he's rolling you, he hates you and your army is clearly OP.

I hate on a lot of Codexes for being OP(well, I say a lot, but really just GK and Space Wolves), but I don't do it because I'm losing, and all I really want is a close game. I don't like tableing people either.

You got challenged. Eldar player thinks he can trump you easily.

Typically its not your own mistake, but the tactics of the eldar player. I have played Eldar and won. You said several sections were very close, do you mind expanding on that?

Otherwise, chalk it up to the Eldar player not using his units properly.

Banner of Devastation is a game-changer, power field is pretty much a mech KFF. Eldar player needs to learn what to do. The update didn't OP any DA units or rules, rather optimising them.

Pfft, thats not a WAAC list at all. The BoD is pushing it a little but it's nothing a good player shouldn't be able to deal with after a couple of games.

It's scary, but scary is totally fine. I'd play it, lose, refine my list and play it again. Then I like to think you'd be the one losing (touches wood)

This other guy was running the latest and greatest from GW. Let him cry harder. Seriously man, that "put the Relic in the middle" speaks volumes - that guy is completely in the wrong here.

Your going to encounter crybabies like this on occasion. Don't give him a second thought, save your concern for the players who actually warrant it man

Well, The things that I did to trump some stuff was use the salvo 4 banner and bikes to wipe out a 20 man guardian squad turn 2. The rad grenade got them to Toughness 2, so bolters ripped through them.


He basically got angry when I played smart and preserved units rather than being stupid about things. For example my Rw command squad were down to two guys, and I drove them around to avoid another KP. apparently they are "Cowards"


Also, thanks 'Mite. This was honestly the first time I encountered this level of butthurt.

Although... The people who proclaim the BoD cheese the most are all eldar players, it seems. I guess tissue paper armor can't last against 72 boltershots a turn.

Did you move Sammuel more than 6"? or am I missing something more basic here?

Cheers

Andrew

I have had the happen to me often, They challenge me thinking an easy win(I used to be the guy to curbstom) but i then give them a fair fight.
I remember this really odd thing, GK player comes in, it was either 1850 or 1500. He challenges me(Hears from his bro im easy) He even opts to least out 200 or so points because he forgot the model. I offered to give him some SM too proxy but he said Nahh i will win w/o it.
HE forfeited Turn two because he wasnt curbstomping me


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the relic thing, it was a mistake, a couple of rounds i ran w/ it. mistakes happen, but very rarely do i find they matter. Besides with Sammy by himself or with a troop?

 AndrewC wrote:
Did you move Sammuel more than 6"? or am I missing something more basic here?

Cheers

Andrew

I think it's more like Sammael had the Relic when only troops can have it... but still, couldn't one of your scoring Ravenwing models have grabbed it anyway (if they were in the same squad as Sammael)?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
He basically got angry when I played smart and preserved units rather than being stupid about things. For example my Rw command squad were down to two guys, and I drove them around to avoid another KP. apparently they are "Cowards"

Yeah, your opponent is just TFG. Once they start losing it's time to blame everything but their own mistakes. The only thing you can do is just refuse to play against them again.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 motyak wrote:
You are complaining because people didn't like a game against you in which you nade at least one severe and game changing rule mistake? Go figure

Woooo! I needed that! woooohoo!

anyways, I didn't know, and the opponent didn't catch it until it was very late in the game. I apologized about that though, and at least now I will know how to play in the future.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Players should however discuss what kind of game they are having before they play. I've been stuck in situations where my fun list has gone against some power list and gotten trashed. And *occasionally* the opposite - neither is fun for either player.

I'm very much a casual/fun gamer and hate playing with or against power lists. But theres nothing there I imagine I'd take any issue with - just looks like "land speeder", "bikes", "land raider", and "pie plate dropper", all pretty standard stuff.

Whats the trick here? Unless that librarian gives them all 2++ saves or some gak I don't see anything wrong here. And even if it does, as long as both players are aware of the type of game being played, then thats totally fine.

As for the relic thing, if it actually made a difference then it's something to think about. But if there was some troop model right next to your character, they can just go cry more. Not to mention how goddamn massive and complex the rules are - its very easy to forget any one rule and it's his job as much as yours to pick up on that. Putting it back in the middle is a load of gak either way though.

Alright, that is more of what I needed to hear. And basically, everything is supposed to work together. The BoD gives bolters salvo 2/4, so the hurricane bolters and the bike's bolters are all putting out 24 shots per squad.

the Power field gives a 4++ to anything within 3", so I had him hide behind the LRC the entire game. I think it started to go downhill when I wiped T2 Guardians off the board with a salvo.

Also, his list was very mean too. lots of high Toughness things I couldn't even touch.

Ah, it was blind support you wanted. Got it.

I wasn't saying everything he said was right to complain about, but this is just one side of the story, and there could have been more errors made which would have grated against him.

The guy is a spanker. Sorry you had to play such a poor game. Your army looks fine to me as well.

My advice would be more confident and self-assured. Confront stupid comments and call people like this out on poor behaviour early or immediately. If you let it slide, of course it will snowball.

Example. He says "that's stupid" when you opt to take Landraider Invulnerable or shoot some salvo bolters or hit and run or whatnot.

"Do you want to see the codex entry?"
"No it's fine, just broken blah blah mumble mumble"
*This is a pretty standard Dark Angels army. Are you new to playing Dark Angels?*
and/or
*Balanced many tabletop rulesets have you?*
and/or
*You can ask me what special rules my units have at any point. I presumed by your strong tailored list that you're a veteran player and familiar with the rulesets, I can't pre-empt what you do and don't know about the game"
and/or
*if you're not having fun because you feel you're in a bad position on the board, I'm happy to end our game here. You're openly sulking, I can't see why myself but I really don't like throwing dice down with sore losers, it's no fun for me and I'd rather not waste any more time. with this.*

In my experience people like your opponent really don't like it up them, and I'd rather paint or do anything else than play a game with a bad apple.

 motyak wrote:


Ah, it was blind support you wanted. Got it.

Also, if you put 'vent thread' in your title, it's pretty good trollbait as you can see here.

About that RW command moving into cover and making them 'cowards' I do recall a Ravenwing comic where they clearly states that they pick the time and place of their battles with victory their sole objective.

but yeah- you were all right, he was a jerk.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Did you move Sammuel more than 6"? or am I missing something more basic here?

Cheers

Andrew

I think it's more like Sammael had the Relic when only troops can have it... but still, couldn't one of your scoring Ravenwing models have grabbed it anyway (if they were in the same squad as Sammael)?

My rulebook says 'a model in a scoring unit' not 'a model that can is a troop choice'. Wouldn't sammael be scoring if he were with a scoring unit?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 motyak wrote:

Ah, it was blind support you wanted. Got it.

Also, if you put 'vent thread' in your title, it's pretty good trollbait as you can see here.

I'm a troll now. Nice. Calling other users that is definitely abiding by the rules of the forum.

It had to be pointed out that, while the other player had a bad attitude, it could well have been compounded by rules errors like the one admitted one, and whichever others were committed. And if they were as influential on the outcome of the game as the admitted error, you can definitely understand the Eldar player's frustration.

We are just getting one side here. Don't all jump down this random Eldar player's throat, especially when he isn't here to defend himself.

Vent/rant threads only contain one perspective, and we still don't know the extent of the rules error. This one quite obviously only has the one side, and so we cannot say what happened without being there. I deal with conflict as part of my job responsibilities, and you bet your ass both people generally feel they were horrifically wronged by no fault of their own when a conflict blows up. Frequently, if you start challenging each person's story by asking for specifics, they start expanding and come to the realization that they contributed to the situation more than they thought they did. Hence the saying that "there are two sides to each story, and then there's the truth"(or any variation of that you like). I'm not saying the OP is being unreasonable in his views, but I am trying to point out we don't know.

To continue, given this one seems looking for sympathy based on wording, pointing out the admitted rules breach could compound something is not trolling.

As for scoring units, assuming the HQ is attached they can score. If not, they can't.

yea, sammy was running around with a troop Rw biker squad, so he was with a bunch of troops. and i do admit, i may have done more things wrong without relizing it, but that really seemed to be the only major problem.

i know the other guy isn't here to tell his story, and i generally needed people's advice and help because i had no one else to talk to. especially at my gw where it seems i cant get a word in without someone yelling or talking over me

i have to say again, he was a really bad sport towards the end. maybe i was too, but when 5 people start talking about how chessey my army is, it kinda starts sucking :|

 motyak wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 motyak wrote:

Ah, it was blind support you wanted. Got it.

Also, if you put 'vent thread' in your title, it's pretty good trollbait as you can see here.

I'm a troll now. Nice. Calling other users that is definitely abiding by the rules of the forum.

It had to be pointed out that, while the other player had a bad attitude, it could well have been compounded by rules errors like the one admitted one, and whichever others were committed. And if they were as influential on the outcome of the game as the admitted error, you can definitely understand the Eldar player's frustration.

We are just getting one side here. Don't all jump down this random Eldar player's throat, especially when he isn't here to defend himself.

Well you were trolling. Don't say that wasn't a post meant to inflame... trolling. What rule did Tiger9Gamer break? Point it out to me. What happened here is some mouthbreathing, busybody, neckbeard, comicbook guy jumped in trying to be Mr.BigStuff and defend his losing (and can't handle it) buddy... only problem is, he's wrong T9G was right. What T9G did was legal and fine. I've been around enough to see these ultra-intense know-it-alls go on about the rules... but its full of assumptions and poor (selective?) memory. They make so much noise and have so much intensity, that they make you believe they're right and you're wrong (when you're not). For those of you without a clue, its "a model in a scoring unit" page 131. That would be Sammy (as per page 39).

@T9G: If Sammy is with a RW Biker Squad, you didn't break the rule (hey people who are dissing him, go read page 131 and tell me why Sammy in a RW squad CAN'T sieze the Relic, go ahead I'll wait), so tell this guy to take it like a man next time and tell his friend to stay out of other people's games if he can't read the English language. Morons!

If everyone wonders why I'm so intense on this myself... I know T9G (heck, helped him with this list, in fact). He took his lumps learning the game, picking a codex, making a list. He took his early losses with grace and learned from them. He started making better and better lists... doing it all for the right reasons, the challenge, the chess-like play between two players, losing with grace and winning with humility. So many of his models and lists he made because they were fluffy, fun, or thematic. This was the type of game he dreams about... and then to have someone violate the gentleman's social contract that is expected in a solid game of 40k is almost enraging to me. So some guys' streak gets torched?! So what... and then Loud-mouth McBeardy comes in (every club has one) and makes a big stink.

@Tiger9Gamer... I'd tell both of them that you won that fair and square. Let them read this thread. Send both jerks to my post or my account her if you need to. Heck, they can email me and I'll make a nice powerpoint for them if I need to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I love your list. DA don't have a cheesy list in this meta without allies... they must not get out much

Yeah, I don't think you did anything explicitly wrong. Though, it is from your point of view. Odds are that you didn't forfeit a game of 40k with complete grace and tastefulness...

I think the biggest problem, as others have mentioned, was one of expectations. Your opponent appeared to want to take the game as a serious tactical exercise, but he was playing against someone who doesn't have the strongest grasp of the rules. I could see how he'd think you were cheating or in some other way not taking the game as seriously as he was.

That said, there's also apparently something else going on. No, your list isn't crazy powergamey (and, even if it was, if your opponent wanted the game to be a serious competitive game...). Nor do I necessarily see it as un-fun to play against. There are certainly some armies where that is true, but I don't see it for what you brought.

As such, I think it probably was a case of a person getting pissy because he was losing. The only real question, then, is what you did to exacerbate things, but there's no way we're going to know that.

Not that people who get emotionally invested in winning a dice game need much to set them off...

For the future, I guess I can only recommend humility and trying to be placative. Well, and not playing against that particular opponent again if you can help it.

Also, to address a specific concern, it doesn't hurt to go over your list and what it does before a game begins. You get no bonus points for winning a game because your opponent doesn't own a copy of your codex.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
yea, sammy was running around with a troop Rw biker squad, so he was with a bunch of troops. and i do admit, i may have done more things wrong without relizing it, but that really seemed to be the only major problem.

i know the other guy isn't here to tell his story, and i generally needed people's advice and help because i had no one else to talk to. especially at my gw where it seems i cant get a word in without someone yelling or talking over me

i have to say again, he was a really bad sport towards the end. maybe i was too, but when 5 people start talking about how chessey my army is, it kinda starts sucking :|

As a long time lurker who rarely posts, I'd have to say that I don't think you did anything wrong. The eldar player was a tool. I'd chalk it up to that, learn from your mistakes and move on. No sense on dwelling on anything more than that. The game can be complicated enough (especially when learning new rules and such) without having to play games with people like that.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
yea, sammy was running around with a troop Rw biker squad, so he was with a bunch of troops. and i do admit, i may have done more things wrong without relizing it, but that really seemed to be the only major problem.

Well then my apologies for calling you out on it. It is the kind of thing that I would expect to see get someones hackles up in game, a squad which can't score taking the relic. Without that error, it makes the Eldar player sound much less reasonable.

And @ Lobukia, it wasn't clear until that post that I quoted that he hadn't broken the rules. If you are talking about my forum rules statement, that was directed at half past yellow as opposed to Tiger9gamer, for calling another user a troll when they weren't trolling. If that had been the only statement I made in that post, then you could say it looked like trolling. That's why I went back and edited it to add more, to make sure it wasn't trolling.

 Ailaros wrote:

Also, to address a specific concern, it doesn't hurt to go over your list and what it does before a game begins. You get no bonus points for winning a game because your opponent doesn't own a copy of your codex.

This I agree on. I always give a "tour of my army" after my deployment. I highlight any special equipment, and if I have any "counts as" or custom conversions, I run through them. After I named every thing (my armies are WYSIWYG), I ask if they need to know the special rules for any of my units. Once that's done, I ask them pretty intense questions about their units (takes 5 minutes usually) and we start.

Things I always ask about:

Units with 2+ armour or invulns, AP 1, 2, or 3 weaponry, SkyFire or Interceptor, what's not WYSIWYG, and finally remind them to roll out Warlord, Powers, Mutations, etc (almost always, there's something they forgot).

I mean, against some players, I'll flat out tell my opponent my army's weaknesses and kinds of ways it can be beaten, or give a general overview of the kinds of ways my army can win.

Yeah, it's putting me at a slight handicap, but my opponents can never complain that they didn't see it coming. Plus, handicapping is the only way that you can increase the difficulty level in 40k.

Not that a new player needs any extra challenge, but still, few things are as frustrating as when your opponent announces with a glib smile around turn 5 that "no, my codex actually makes that a scoring unit", or something else game-changing to that effect.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 motyak wrote:
You are complaining because people didn't like a game against you in which you nade at least one severe and game changing rule mistake? Go figure

Woooo! I needed that! woooohoo!

anyways, I didn't know, and the opponent didn't catch it until it was very late in the game. I apologized about that though, and at least now I will know how to play in the future.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Players should however discuss what kind of game they are having before they play. I've been stuck in situations where my fun list has gone against some power list and gotten trashed. And *occasionally* the opposite - neither is fun for either player.

I'm very much a casual/fun gamer and hate playing with or against power lists. But theres nothing there I imagine I'd take any issue with - just looks like "land speeder", "bikes", "land raider", and "pie plate dropper", all pretty standard stuff.

Whats the trick here? Unless that librarian gives them all 2++ saves or some gak I don't see anything wrong here. And even if it does, as long as both players are aware of the type of game being played, then thats totally fine.

As for the relic thing, if it actually made a difference then it's something to think about. But if there was some troop model right next to your character, they can just go cry more. Not to mention how goddamn massive and complex the rules are - its very easy to forget any one rule and it's his job as much as yours to pick up on that. Putting it back in the middle is a load of gak either way though.

Alright, that is more of what I needed to hear. And basically, everything is supposed to work together. The BoD gives bolters salvo 2/4, so the hurricane bolters and the bike's bolters are all putting out 24 shots per squad.

the Power field gives a 4++ to anything within 3", so I had him hide behind the LRC the entire game. I think it started to go downhill when I wiped T2 Guardians off the board with a salvo.

Also, his list was very mean too. lots of high Toughness things I couldn't even touch.

not really a comment on the game or the "vent" but hiding behind the LRC for PFG 4++ ...... i could be wrong but, didn't that get FAQ'd out awhile back?

Page 64 – Power Field Generator
Add “If the bearer is embarked upon a Transport vehicle, the
powerfield’s effects only apply to models embarked upon that
vehicle”.

 bloodfist1 wrote:
not really a comment on the game or the "vent" but hiding behind the LRC for PFG 4++ ...... i could be wrong but, didn't that get FAQ'd out awhile back?

Page 64 – Power Field Generator
Add “If the bearer is embarked upon a Transport vehicle, the
powerfield’s effects only apply to models embarked upon that
vehicle”.

Embarked on =/= hiding behind.

I had a guy rage quit before he took his turn 3, and basically kinda said similar things like "I am NEVER playing against that list again, I LITERALLY couldn't do anything to stop it".

That bothered me on two levels that maybe you can relate to.

1. I dont bring awesome lists normally, by most opinions. I get told all the time (to my amusement) that it is a lost cause list. the one time I DO take what I thought was a "good" list, he flips out that i DID.

2. No one wants to be TFG and comments like the ones you endured make you feel that way, usually in an unwarranted way.

I think people need to learn how to lose more gracefully. I mean its disappointing to spend two hours only to lose in the end. But i mean damn... I've played literal hundreds of games. Can ONE game really matter that much any more after so many?

Perspective is whats needed.

You have an updated codex, there will be people both on this forum and in real life that think your stuff is 'broken' because their army is running on a 4th or 5th edition codex. Whiners all.

Kneecapping yourself for the sake of some WAAC/TFG's ego or approval isn't right and you shouldn't do it. You buy your models, paint them the way you want, and field whatever the hell you want to, whenever you can. This is a GAME and the point is to have fun, if the 'children' can't handle that, well then maybe they should stop playing.