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That Rod of Covenant is so much worse than a Warscythe it is crazy. I would consider the TP a viable unit if they could get WSs instead, but since they can't, I don't see them being as useful as Wraiths. But since they don't compete for spots, I really don't see the point of compairing and contrasting them. The HQ and Heavy are the only two spots where you end up being like "I wish I could take more - ," and in the case of TP and Wraiths, it comes to points being the limiting factor, not force org.
So if you're looking for a battlefield role to be filled by Wraiths or TPs and points is the limiting factor, you just need to figure out which unit is better for its points. I think the majority consensus is that Wraiths are a top-teir unit while Praetorians are a bottom-mid-teir one.
Another way to look at it is, can you think of a scenario where you would want 240 points of Praetorians over 240 points of Wraiths?... I can't, I just can't.

 Brymm wrote:
That Rod of Covenant is so much worse than a Warscythe it is crazy. I would consider the TP a viable unit if they could get WSs instead, but since they can't, I don't see them being as useful as Wraiths. But since they don't compete for spots, I really don't see the point of compairing and contrasting them. The HQ and Heavy are the only two spots where you end up being like "I wish I could take more - ," and in the case of TP and Wraiths, it comes to points being the limiting factor, not force org.
So if you're looking for a battlefield role to be filled by Wraiths or TPs and points is the limiting factor, you just need to figure out which unit is better for its points. I think the majority consensus is that Wraiths are a top-teir unit while Praetorians are a bottom-mid-teir one.
Another way to look at it is, can you think of a scenario where you would want 240 points of Praetorians over 240 points of Wraiths?... I can't, I just can't.

MAYBE vs a Dark Angels Deathwing list chop full of Powerfirst Terminators, but too be fair even looking at the DA previews that seems like an unpopular build. Praetorians excel at countering 2+ save models, particularly with low I (such as unwieldly models with power fists), but that is really the only case that I can think of.

Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

I completely agree with this smart person. Triarch Praets to me, are in most situations a lesser wraith. There are some situations where they are better than wraiths (ie if your opponent has an insane number of missile launchers), but this is the exception rather than the rule.

That said, I think caster/void blade Praets can be a cheaper (in real world cost) version of wraiths. I box of 5 praets is is a lot cheaper than 2x3 boxes of Canoptek Wraiths.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

The Rod TPs are wounding the Terms on 2's as well. The Terms will get a 5++, but the TPs will get their 5+ (or 4+) RP roll. The TPs will also unload a volley of S5 AP2 shots into the terms before assaulting, and if they played it right will get Hammer of Wrath hits to boot. To suggest that Rod of Covenant Triarch's can't take on Terms is remarkably inaccurate.

Even though I would never run TPs without a DLord, just for illustrative purposes:
5 Rod Shots:
5(2÷3)(2÷3)(2÷3) = 1.5
10 Rod CC attacks
10(1÷2)(5÷6)(2÷3)=2.77

Lets say the Terms get a bit lucky and only lose one dude to the Shots:
8 Term Attacks:
8(1÷2)(5÷6)=3.33

So 1 Term dies to shooting, they tie combat 3 to 3, then one TP stands back up.

Now its 3 versus 1, and pretty good odds the TPs pull it out.

I gave the charge to the TPs, but that should be a near certainty. Also, didn't give them Hammer of Wrath, Preffered Enemy, or Res Orb, all of which they would get in a real game situation either from the DLord or good tactics (ie Hammer of Wrath).

The overcosted argument is just silly. Wraiths are one of the best buys in the game. TPs are more resilient yet less punchy Wraiths, and average the same cost. How one can be considered such a good buy while the latter is considered "overcosted" is beyond me.

There are some situations where they are better than wraiths (ie if your opponent has an insane number of missile launchers), but this is the exception rather than the rule.

How about Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Las Cannons, Railguns, lasguns, scatter lasers, flamers, heavy flamers, all gauss weapons, most tesla weapons, virtually every shooting weapon Orcs, Nids and both forms of Space Elves have? Because the Triarchs are either always better or generally better versus everysingle one of these weapons compared to Wraiths. Really the only clear winner for Wraiths is Plasma. That's it. One weapon profile in the entire game. People way over value the 2 wounds and 3++ and undervalue the 5T and RP.

*whynotboth.jpg*

Just imagine if Lychguard could take scythes and shields....*drool*. Oh well, still tempted to do that conversion since I'm not using my sword and board models much anymore (and it would look fantastic). Anyone been consistently using Lychguard in the armies?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

The Rod TPs are wounding the Terms on 2's as well. The Terms will get a 5++, but the TPs will get their 5+ (or 4+) RP roll. The TPs will also unload a volley of S5 AP2 shots into the terms before assaulting, and if they played it right will get Hammer of Wrath hits to boot. To suggest that Rod of Covenant Triarch's can't take on Terms is remarkably inaccurate.

Even though I would never run TPs without a DLord, just for illustrative purposes:
5 Rod Shots:
5(2÷3)(2÷3)(2÷3) = 1.5
10 Rod CC attacks
10(1÷2)(5÷6)(2÷3)=2.77

Lets say the Terms get a bit lucky and only lose one dude to the Shots:
8 Term Attacks:
8(1÷2)(5÷6)=3.33

So 1 Term dies to shooting, they tie combat 3 to 3, then one TP stands back up.

Now its 3 versus 1, and pretty good odds the TPs pull it out.

I gave the charge to the TPs, but that should be a near certainty. Also, didn't give them Hammer of Wrath, Preffered Enemy, or Res Orb, all of which they would get in a real game situation either from the DLord or good tactics (ie Hammer of Wrath).

The overcosted argument is just silly. Wraiths are one of the best buys in the game. TPs are more resilient yet less punchy Wraiths, and average the same cost. How one can be considered such a good buy while the latter is considered "overcosted" is beyond me.

There are some situations where they are better than wraiths (ie if your opponent has an insane number of missile launchers), but this is the exception rather than the rule.

How about Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Las Cannons, Railguns, lasguns, scatter lasers, flamers, heavy flamers, all gauss weapons, most tesla weapons, virtually every shooting weapon Orcs, Nids and both forms of Space Elves have? Because the Triarchs are either always better or generally better versus everysingle one of these weapons compared to Wraiths. Really the only clear winner for Wraiths is Plasma. That's it. One weapon profile in the entire game. People way over value the 2 wounds and 3++ and undervalue the 5T and RP.

you are still assuming that your opponent has let your 5 TP walk up to your Terminators without hitting them with a turn of fire, which they will do and that the terminators haven't themselves unloaded shots on the TP, or over watched against them. Props to you if this works at your local meta, I have allot better players that I play against here, including a Throne of Skulls champion, they bring enough fir power and ap3 weapons that 5 TP with or without a D. Lord would be dead in a turn of fire, and anything that could be used to save them would just slow them down. And give the opponent a second round of shooting and/or the charge against them.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

The Rod TPs are wounding the Terms on 2's as well. The Terms will get a 5++, but the TPs will get their 5+ (or 4+) RP roll. The TPs will also unload a volley of S5 AP2 shots into the terms before assaulting, and if they played it right will get Hammer of Wrath hits to boot. To suggest that Rod of Covenant Triarch's can't take on Terms is remarkably inaccurate.

Even though I would never run TPs without a DLord, just for illustrative purposes:
5 Rod Shots:
5(2÷3)(2÷3)(2÷3) = 1.5
10 Rod CC attacks
10(1÷2)(5÷6)(2÷3)=2.77

Lets say the Terms get a bit lucky and only lose one dude to the Shots:
8 Term Attacks:
8(1÷2)(5÷6)=3.33

So 1 Term dies to shooting, they tie combat 3 to 3, then one TP stands back up.

Now its 3 versus 1, and pretty good odds the TPs pull it out.

I gave the charge to the TPs, but that should be a near certainty. Also, didn't give them Hammer of Wrath, Preffered Enemy, or Res Orb, all of which they would get in a real game situation either from the DLord or good tactics (ie Hammer of Wrath).

The overcosted argument is just silly. Wraiths are one of the best buys in the game. TPs are more resilient yet less punchy Wraiths, and average the same cost. How one can be considered such a good buy while the latter is considered "overcosted" is beyond me.

There are some situations where they are better than wraiths (ie if your opponent has an insane number of missile launchers), but this is the exception rather than the rule.

How about Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Las Cannons, Railguns, lasguns, scatter lasers, flamers, heavy flamers, all gauss weapons, most tesla weapons, virtually every shooting weapon Orcs, Nids and both forms of Space Elves have? Because the Triarchs are either always better or generally better versus everysingle one of these weapons compared to Wraiths. Really the only clear winner for Wraiths is Plasma. That's it. One weapon profile in the entire game. People way over value the 2 wounds and 3++ and undervalue the 5T and RP.

you are still assuming that your opponent has let your 5 TP walk up to your Terminators without hitting them with a turn of fire, which they will do and that the terminators haven't themselves unloaded shots on the TP, or over watched against them. Props to you if this works at your local meta, I have allot better players that I play against here, including a Throne of Skulls champion, they bring enough fir power and ap3 weapons that 5 TP with or without a D. Lord would be dead in a turn of fire, and anything that could be used to save them would just slow them down. And give the opponent a second round of shooting and/or the charge against them.

Out of curiosity, I ran those numbers with a unit of 5 basic Wraiths (no D-lord, no coils)

(Also Note: I had to look for 10 minutes to dig up my TI-83 calculator that I have not touched in the 5 years since my college astronomy class)

Assuming the wraiths get the charge and 4 attacks each

Wraith Attacks
20(1/2)(4/6) = 6.67 normal wounds
20(1/2)(1/6) = 1.67 rending wounds
6.67(5/6) = 5.55 saves against normal wounds
1.67(4/6) = 1.12 saves against rending wounds (assuming SS equipped)
6.67-5.55 = 1.12 normal unsaved wounds
1.67-1.12 = .55 unsaved rending wounds
1.12 + .55 = 1.67 total unsaved wounds, meaning 1-2 dead Terminators

Terminator Attacks (assuming 3 Terminators survived)
6(1/2)(5/6) = 2.5 wounds
2.5(2/3) = 1.67 saves
2.5-1.67 = .83 unsaved wounds, instantly killing 0-1 Wraith.

Wraith's lose combat by 1, but are fearless so the party keeps going.


Out of further curiosity (and because I already have the darn calculator out) How do TPs and Wraiths stack up against a basic tac-squad (9 plain-jane Ultramarines with a sarge w/ BP/CS)

TP
5 Rod shots
5(2/3)(2/3) = 2.22 wounds, 2-3 dead Marines

Assault - Marines (assuming 2 dead Marines)
7(1/2)(1/3) = 1.17 wounds
1.17(2/3) = .78 unsaved wound, 0-1 dead TP

Assault - TP (assuming 1 dead TP)
8(1/2)(5/6) = 3.34 wounds, meaning 3.34 unsaved wounds, further meaning 3-4 dead Marines

Wraiths (w/ rending)

Assault - Marines
11(1/2)(1/2) = 2.75 wounds
2.75 (2/3) = 1.84 saves
2.75-1.84 = .91 unsaved wounds, meaning 1 half-dead Wraith

Assault - Wraiths
20(1/2)(4/6) = 6.67 normal wounds
20(1/2)(1/6) = 1.67 rending wounds
6.67(2/3) = 4.45 saves against normal wounds
6.67-4.45 = 2.22 unsaved normal wounds
2.22 unsaved normal wounds + 1.67 rending wounds = 3.89 total unsaved wounds, meaning 3-4 dead Marines

TP w/ shooting and assault are getting 3-5 dead Terminators, in return for 3-4 downed TP, while Wraiths are getting 1-2 in return for 0-1 totally dead Wraith
TP w/ shooting and assault are getting 5-7 dead Tac Marines in return for 0-1 downed TP, while Wraiths are getting 3-4 in return for 1 half-dead Wraith.


(If anything is wrong with the numbers, just go ahead and fix it. Mathhammer makes my head hurt)

TL;DR- They'll both mop the floor against MEQ, and will run about even blow-for-blow against TEQ.

I think you made your first squad of Wraiths fight against TH/SS terminators instead of Tactical ones (saving 4/6 of the rends means storm shield, no?). The first set of math for the TP in the previous post had them fighting against tactical terminators.

I am a big fan of mathhammer yet it fails to give an appropriate idea of how a unit would perform.

a) You assume a direct confrontation. Not going to happen in a real game. If your TP walk up to the enemy, the squad will be annihilated or reduced to being useless by the time it makes to the enemy. Wraiths are far superior to TP in that regard as they always get their 3++ compared to the TP's 3+

Yes, you can give them a transport. That's at least 100 points more for your unit....and there goes the point-effectiveness!

b) Having 2 wounds is a big advantage due to would allocation. TP suffer a wound, the model is killed, you lose out on all remaining attacks. Wraiths suffer a wound, they can still fight back.

c) Whip coils. Wraiths suddenly strike first.

d) Wraiths / TPs are a cc unit. Let's compare it to a cc unit then....terminators with storm shields. Suddenly, they got a 3++ while TP get no save at all vs. the enemy's attacks. Do the math now.

 Brymm wrote:
I think you made your first squad of Wraiths fight against TH/SS terminators instead of Tactical ones (saving 4/6 of the rends means storm shield, no?). The first set of math for the TP in the previous post had them fighting against tactical terminators.

Yes, I included storm shields. I'm pretty sure the first TP calculations by ShagarLogath included a 2/3 save against the ap 2 rods due to storm shields.

I'm personally firmly set in the Wraith camp. Whip coils, 3 attacks base, and the best invul save in the entire Necron army (apart from OL wargear) is just too all around good. TPs are certainly good, but only in situations where their ap 2 is the most important thing they bring, ie against terminators/marines. Wraiths simply have the volume of attacks to handle both "Hard and few" and "Soft and many" type targets.

I simply ran the math because I was curious as to what it would hold. I usually abhor mathhammer (Thus why I haven't touched a calculator in 5 years), but I was curious to see how the Wraiths stacked up in a purely numerical sense.

Praetorians are good, and they definitely got better in 6th when combined with a DL, but I find that Wraiths are more useful across a broader spectrum of situations.

Isn't everything better with a D-Lord?

 Brymm wrote:
Isn't everything better with a D-Lord?

FO are still utter trash

...but yes, unless you already got TL shots, PE does make everything bettter

I must agree with G. Whitenbeard TP may handle pretty well in cc but still, Wraiths are much more adaptive to ANY situations on battlefield.
But to change abit of subject , I need to ask of Your advice....
Tomorrow my Crons will meet Plaugemarines + Demons and i got 2 ideas how to show them real hell from crons heavy support

1- 2x DA supported by TS
2- 2x AB and DS Monolith

Which in Yours opinion would be more.... hurtfull

And about TS, can I use Targeting Relay to twin linked weapons?

 Sigvatr wrote:
I am a big fan of mathhammer yet it fails to give an appropriate idea of how a unit would perform.

a) You assume a direct confrontation. Not going to happen in a real game. If your TP walk up to the enemy, the squad will be annihilated or reduced to being useless by the time it makes to the enemy. Wraiths are far superior to TP in that regard as they always get their 3++ compared to the TP's 3+

Yes, you can give them a transport. That's at least 100 points more for your unit....and there goes the point-effectiveness!

b) Having 2 wounds is a big advantage due to would allocation. TP suffer a wound, the model is killed, you lose out on all remaining attacks. Wraiths suffer a wound, they can still fight back.

c) Whip coils. Wraiths suddenly strike first.

d) Wraiths / TPs are a cc unit. Let's compare it to a cc unit then....terminators with storm shields. Suddenly, they got a 3++ while TP get no save at all vs. the enemy's attacks. Do the math now.

Mathhammer

Bolter vs Wraith
.667 hit - .335 wound - .111 failed save - .056 Wraiths have 2 wounds

Bolter Shot vs TP
.667 hit - .220 wound - .073 failed save - .049 failed RP(.037 w/ Orb)

Plasma vs Wraith
.667hit - .556 wound - .185 failed save - .093 Wraiths have 2 wounds

Plasma vs TP
.667 hit - .556 wound - .556 no save - .371 failed RP(.278 w/ Orb)

Krak, Melta, Lascannon vs Wraith
.667 hit - .556 wound - .185 failed save - .185 Instant Death

Krak, Melta, Lascannon vs TP
.667 hit - .556 wound - .556 no save - .371 failed RP(.278 w/ Orb)

Final Result...

Wraiths for the WIN!

You need to factor volume of fire in. Bolters naturally have a higher volume of fire thus are a higher threat to Wraiths than one might think considering their 3++....at least at first sight.

 Sigvatr wrote:
You need to factor volume of fire in. Bolters naturally have a higher volume of fire thus are a higher threat to Wraiths than one might think considering their 3++....at least at first sight.

I did. If you look a single bolter shot has a 11.1% chance of wounding a Wraith. Then I cut that number in half since it would take at least 2 shots to actually kill the thing.

Final results means that Bolter fire is only slightly(0.7%) more effective vs Wraiths.

Hmmm.

Wraiths: A tac squad's gonna hit you with 20 S4 AP5 shots before you charge them (not Overwatch). They hit on 3s, thus 13,p3 hits, wound on 4s => 6,p6 wounds, 3+ save => 2,p2 wounds => 1 dead Wraith.

TP: 13,p3 hits, wound on 5s => 4,p4 wounds, 3+ save => ~1,5 wounds => at least 1 dead TP and 50% chance for another dead one, yet TP also get their We Will Be Back save => 0,98 losses, thus about 1 TP is likely to die.

Uhm...I assume I kinda made a mistake up there TP cost more and pack less punch while not being that more resistant to what Wraiths fear the most, small arms fire.

even More mathhammer

other small arms fire vs Wraiths and TP...

Str 5 AP 4 vs Wraith
.667 hit - .445 wounds - .148 failed save - .074 Wraiths have 2 wounds

Str 5 AP 4 vs TP
.667 hit - .334 wounds - .111 failed save - .074 failed RP(.056 w/ Orb)

Str 6 AP 4 vs Wraith
.667 hit - .556 wounds - .185 failed save - .093 Wraiths have 2 wounds

Str 6 AP 4 vs TP
.667 hit - .445 wound - .148 failed save - .01 failed RP(.074 w/ Orb)

Str 7 AP 4 vs Wraith
.667 hit - .556 wounds - .185 failed save - .093 Wraiths have 2 wounds

Str 7 AP 4 vs TP
.667 hit - .556 wounds - .185 failed save - .123 failed RP(.093 w/ Orb)

Bottom line TPs have only a tiny advantage when facing small arms fire.

One other thing that no one has mentioned, in 1/6th of the missions Wraiths are scoring. And that is the mission with the most objectives on the table.

Plus have we looked at effectiveness vs Walkers?
What about vs land raiders?

 Brymm wrote:
Plus have we looked at effectiveness vs Walkers?
What about vs land raiders?

Wraiths are S6 rending versus TP with no rending ap2 rods at S6. The void blade TP have entropic strike with rending and 2 attacks. In the end though they both really go to the Destroyer Lord and his AP1 S7 armourbane Warscythe. So it really is just a matter of who can get him there and is the better escort for LoS attacks from the walker which pierce the D. lords Armour, and hands down the Wraiths still win.

Bolter vs Wraith
.667 hit - .335 wound - .111 failed save - .056 Wraiths have 2 wounds

Bolter Shot vs TP
.667 hit - .220 wound - .073 failed save - .049 failed RP(.037 w/ Orb)

Plasma vs Wraith
.667hit - .556 wound - .185 failed save - .093 Wraiths have 2 wounds

Plasma vs TP
.667 hit - .556 wound - .556 no save - .371 failed RP(.278 w/ Orb)

Krak, Melta, Lascannon vs Wraith
.667 hit - .556 wound - .185 failed save - .185 Instant Death

Krak, Melta, Lascannon vs TP
.667 hit - .556 wound - .556 no save - .371 failed RP(.278 w/ Orb)

Final Result...

Wraiths for the WIN!

Cover saves? Plug in cover, and then consider Night Fighting, Stealth, Shrouded. Your big weapon calculation are bit lacking without taking those things into account.

Your small arms fire doesn't nearly tell the whole story either:

18(2÷3)(1÷2)(1÷3)=2
It takes 18 Bolter shots on average to drop a Wraith.

27(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷3)(1÷2)=1
It takes 27 Bolter shots on average to drop a TP with a Res Orb. That's 50% more shots, or an entire additional MSU squad in rapid fire range per base. That's a massive difference.

14(2÷3)(2÷3)(1÷3)=2.074
I takes 14 HB shots on average to drop a Wraith.

18(2÷3)(1÷2)(1÷3)(1÷2)=1
It takes 18 HB shots on average to kill a TP. That's more then an extra base's worth of shots.

6/4:
11(2÷3)(5÷6)(1÷3)=2.037

14(2÷3)(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷2)=1.037

11 shots to 14 shots/base.

The heavy weapons break about even with just 5+ cover, and start to really work in the TPs favor at 4+ and 3+ cover.

I know I'm assuming a Res Orb and cover saves here, but considering the whole frame of this conversation is which makes a better DLord escort, and these are Necrons with SP's, Imo, and Night Fighting, I think those are safe assumptions.

Uhm...I assume I kinda made a mistake up there TP cost more and pack less punch while not being that more resistant to what Wraiths fear the most, small arms fire.

Nope, made no mistake (see above), and TPs don't actually cost more. No one is running Wraiths without WCs.

I did. If you look a single bolter shot has a 11.1% chance of wounding a Wraith. Then I cut that number in half since it would take at least 2 shots to actually kill the thing.

Final results means that Bolter fire is only slightly(0.7%) more effective vs Wraiths.

Again, it takes 50% more Bolter shots to kill a Wraith. Their is something off in the way you are figuring that.

you are still assuming that your opponent has let your 5 TP walk up to your Terminators without hitting them with a turn of fire, which they will do and that the terminators haven't themselves unloaded shots on the TP, or over watched against them. Props to you if this works at your local meta, I have allot better players that I play against here, including a Throne of Skulls champion, they bring enough fir power and ap3 weapons that 5 TP with or without a D. Lord would be dead in a turn of fire, and anything that could be used to save them would just slow them down. And give the opponent a second round of shooting and/or the charge against them.

Ah, the classic "they might get shot" rebuttal, as if your hypothetical Terms were immune to said bullets. You made an assertion that was completely false, proven by facts, and now are crawfishin with meaningless anecdotes.

I am a big fan of mathhammer yet it fails to give an appropriate idea of how a unit would perform.

a) You assume a direct confrontation. Not going to happen in a real game. If your TP walk up to the enemy, the squad will be annihilated or reduced to being useless by the time it makes to the enemy. Wraiths are far superior to TP in that regard as they always get their 3++ compared to the TP's 3+

Yes, you can give them a transport. That's at least 100 points more for your unit....and there goes the point-effectiveness!

b) Having 2 wounds is a big advantage due to would allocation. TP suffer a wound, the model is killed, you lose out on all remaining attacks. Wraiths suffer a wound, they can still fight back.

c) Whip coils. Wraiths suddenly strike first.

a.) Look at the math bud. The Wraiths are more likely to get shot up then the TPs are. The numbers really don't lie here.

b.) True, but the TPs have RP. The TPs suffer a casualty, hang around because they are fearless, and then pop right back up.

c.) Definitely a Wraith advantage, no argument their.

FO are still utter trash

You've obviously never run FO's with a Dlord .

ShadarLogoth,

You may want to buy a rule book and take a look at how cover saves work, and the ranges needed for Stealth and Shrouded to have any effect and under what circumstances night fighting rules actually come into play.

These are topics you clearly don't understand.

All this mathammer gave me cancer.

 Brymm wrote:
Isn't everything better with a D-Lord?

Not if you want to run Royal Courts, but other than that yes.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

FO are still utter trash

You've obviously never run FO's with a Dlord .

of all the glorious things you could attach a DLord to, Flayed Ones rightly deserve to be considered "trash" tier.
(now, if they had been given Rending, which would have made sense, what with their giant blades for fingers, obviously things would be vastly different and GW might actually see people buying those god awful overpriced models. but alas, much like the C'tan and the Monolith, GW decided it had had enough of people buying FO, and had Ward nerf them into mediocrity)

Cover saves? Plug in cover, and then consider Night Fighting, Stealth, Shrouded.

With fast offensive units like TPs and Wraiths, you have to anticipate that at some point they may, in fact, be forced to suffer a turn of shooting in the open in order to stage them for a next turn jump assault. Shrouded matters a bit less seeing as how their total max threat range is 24" anyways, so they will likely have to sit inside 20" to be ready to attack.

I know, I know. Some players may say, "Well, hey, a good Necron player will never, ever, leave their Wraiths/TPs in the open" and I agree, you shouldn't. But the game just isn't neat and tidy like that. Every single game we play is different, and sometimes we, as players, are forced to do things we don't want to with units that shouldn't be doing those things. In fact, the best players know how to use each and every unit well outside the design box that they were intended to occupy.

The fact is once they have to leave the safety (and limitations) of cover, TPs and Wraiths instantly become a "Must Kill" target to the enemy, and rightly so. Both TP and Wraiths can roll over non-cc units (and most cc units) alike, contest objectives, and split whole lines and flanks of the enemy position. The fact is, Wraiths have the necessary save and power to fight through heavy las-cannon, rail cannon, plasma cannon, assault cannon, battle cannon, demolisher cannon, and melta gun fire that TPs just don't have with their lack of an invul save.

TP are absolutely phenomenal at butchering terminators and marines. Quite a bit better than Wraiths, as our math has proven. But that is also their greatest limitation. They are better than Wraiths IF they are fighting Astartes and IF they get the charge and IF they are allowed to stay in cover and outside of 12" or 24" of heavy enemy shooting. Not hordes, not sprinting for objectives, not tanks, not walkers.

Wraiths, while certainly being less effective at killing terminators and marines in straight hth, are more adaptable in every other dimension. They can handle the ap 3, 2, and 1 fire to reach out and contest an objective, they have the staying power to deep strike into a tight enemy area, they have the ability to fight and prevail over almost every kind of unit on the battlefield. CC units, yes. Hordes, yes. Tanks, yes. Walkers, yes.

Straight killing power is not the only measure of how good a unit is.

And cost which TP vastly fail at, where Wraiths obviously succeed.