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Well it will make the recasters happy, i guess.


MakerBot, one of the largest and best-known companies in the world of 3D printing, has finally announced a release date (October 2013) and price ($1,500) for its highly-anticipated 3D scanner, the MakerBot Digitizer.

“Bringing the MakerBot Digitizer Desktop 3D Scanner into the world has been a big goal of ours this year,” MakerBot CEO Bre Pettis said in a statement (PDF) on Thursday. “We are really excited about the MakerBot Digitizer. This is another innovative product for visionaries, early adopters, experimenters, educators, creative hobbyists, 3D sculptors, organic modelers, designers, and architects who want to be the first to become an expert in Desktop 3D Scanning.”

Pettis first announced the product at the March 2013 SXSW conference in Austin, Texas. However, in April 2013, a rival Canadian firm announced its own sub-$500 3D scanner.

MakerBot, which was acquired by an older printing firm earlier this year for over $400 million, hasn’t yet released any technical details about its product. But in a Frequently Asked Questions document (PDF), the company does reveal the scanner’s resolution.

“The MakerBot Digitizer captures enough points to create about 200,000 triangles for each new 3D model,” the firm wrote. “It can capture details as small as 0.5 mm and surface depth as shallow as 0.5 mm. The dimensional accuracy of the MakerBot Digitizer’s is ± 2 mm, meaning that when you scan an object, the dimensions of your 3D model will be within 2 mm of your original object.”

source:
http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/08/makerbots-new-3d-scanner-will-run-you-1500-and-ships-in-october/

Still needs to get better - +- 2mm at the scale most war gaming happens at is pretty bad.

rigeld2 wrote:
Still needs to get better - +- 2mm at the scale most war gaming happens at is pretty bad.

You are right, but it is just a matter of time, i am sure the resolution will increase with newer versions or other manufacturers (and the price will come down)

It's also a matter of how expensive the desposition material and scaffolding are.

This could be yet another iteration of selling the printer at a loss and the "ink" at an inflated premium.

I think we'll be seeing 3D printers become commonplace in machine shops and office supply stores long before we see anything showing up in homes at a reasonable resolution for miniature gaming. Until then, we'll have to bear through people making awful pixely 3D printings and posting them on Etsy.

Perhaps we should be comparing how expensive is the ink vs GW miniatures then

Seriously, piracy issues aside affordable 3D printing will be an opportunity for accesory stuff rather than miniatures. A good SM sculpt might be far away but things like walls of our own customised ADLs or bunkers or other simple shape constructs is not complicated to design. Personally I would buy non-gothic terrain from GW but they keep insisting that in the Grimdark future there is only Imperium terrain (and skulls) so if my needs are not met I might as well bite the bullet and learn how do make a run of the mill trench or a barricade.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Perhaps we should be comparing how expensive is the ink vs GW miniatures then

Seriously, piracy issues aside affordable 3D printing will be an opportunity for accesory stuff rather than miniatures. A good SM sculpt might be far away but things like walls of our own customised ADLs or bunkers or other simple shape constructs is not complicated to design. Personally I would buy non-gothic terrain from GW but they keep insisting that in the Grimdark future there is only Imperium terrain (and skulls) so if my needs are not met I might as well bite the bullet and learn how do make a run of the mill trench or a barricade.

M.

Just for your Birthday i would print out a bag of skulls and imperial eagles for your nondescript buildings

While I don't see this thing sinking game companies in the near future, I'm surprised at the glee some people have about these things.

Everyone is ecstatic that this thing could sink Games Workshop. Well, if you're someone who thinks GW deserves to sink because they fooled around with your mom and kicked your puppy, I guess I expect it.

But as people love to constantly remind these boards, Games Workshop isn't the hobby. There's plenty of smaller games companies out there that make games and make their living off Miniature sales. I'm sure Hawk Wargames wouldn't be too healthy if people stopped buying their miniatures.

Corvus Belli? They give 90% of Infinitys rules out completely for free, and make the majority of their money on miniature sales. Once someone can go and cost effectively print a new army, Corvus Belli aren't going to be around for much longer. Privateer Press as well - sure, people will still buy rules, but they aren't make the majority of their money on rules.

And once a company folds, so too does the mainstream development of its IP - including the design of new miniatures. Which means there will be less interest in the game amongst groups and definitely as pickup games at stores and clubs, and thus the printable models will become redundant.

I just... don't get it. People are all over this technology, wanting it to make miniature production something that can be accomplished at home for cheap, while (maybe unknowingly) wishing the death of the mainstream hobby if their dream of 'free' miniatures came true.

You make a good point. I see it as people complaining about costs and soon will have something to do about it. I thjnk once this tech is made available for every day people you will see a price drop from the bigger game companies to keep people interested in keeping the game alive.

 -Loki- wrote:
I just... don't get it. People are all over this technology, wanting it to make miniature production something that can be accomplished at home for cheap, while (maybe unknowingly) wishing the death of the mainstream hobby if their dream of 'free' miniatures came true.

I'm all over this technology (and especially the scanner) because I have a desire to create my own designs. However, I do not have the 3D modeling knoweldge to be able to create them fully from digital scratch, so when the scanner becomes available (and once I can convince my wife to let me have one and a printer) I'll be making my own masters and then rather than making molds out of them, I'll simply scan them in. It'll be far easier and much cleaner than dealing with resin and the airbubbles it brings.

I don't think there are actually people that want smaller companies to fail... but to be honest, all of those companies are going to have to come to terms with the fact that the new technology exists. Many of them have already been taking advantage of it to create their new designs digitally, and improving resolution on printers will eventually allow them to create mold masters that are even better than ones they are already making. Quality 3D scanning tech is going to allow other companies to leverage their traditional sculptors using the same efficient tech rather than having to hire out for new designers.

The business world is all about evolving along with new tech. Some can fight it as long as they are able, and yet others find ways to legislate to prevent it from letting others get ahead of them, but in the end those people that are creative and capable will adapt and come out on top. If you think that GW and CB aren't already looking into ways to take advantage of these new things to improve their business... well, OK, GW can be a bit of a dinosaur so they may not be. I'm not going to shed a single tear for miniatures companies that can't adjust to the changing marketplace: book publishers have been having to do the exact same thing over the last decade.

 -Loki- wrote:

I just... don't get it. People are all over this technology, wanting it to make miniature production something that can be accomplished at home for cheap, while (maybe unknowingly) wishing the death of the mainstream hobby if their dream of 'free' miniatures came true.

Quick! Somebody stop that Ford fellow he is going to put all horse breeders out of a job...

For me 3D is not for cheaper options but rather the more options part. If I want an ADL for eldar currently I don't have any GW's kit, I can either buy a 3rd party or make my own. And for this, cheap 3d printing is Godsent as it will force the big companies to wisen up or lose customers, it won't affect small companies as much because some are already using it and small companies are more adaptable to customers' requests like we see everyday on the News Forum.

You are a Tyranid player, what do you prefer? To wait until GW deems you worthy enough to buy the Tyranid ADL like they did with the Tervigon (and we know how well that ended) or try your hand at making one if you have the tech and skills?

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
You are a Tyranid player, what do you prefer? To wait until GW deems you worthy enough to buy the Tyranid ADL like they did with the Tervigon (and we know how well that ended) or try your hand at making one if you have the tech and skills?

M.

I'd prefer to just paint more Tyranids since an ADL is a terrible choice for a Tyranid army.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Quick! Somebody stop that Ford fellow he is going to put all horse breeders out of a job...

Not even close as an analogy. People didn't want Ford to make cars to spite horse breeders, and it wasn't giving people the ability to make those cars at home. it was simply replacing one expensive mode of transportation with another.

I'm also not taking the side of game manufacturers here, but the side of gamers. If Corvus Belli folded because of this, Infinitys growth would cease. Sure, a few enterprising people might make some homebrew additions to it, but there would be nothing to draw new players to the game, and the community would end up dying. Sure, I could go print the Tohaa starter and paint it, but trying to find people playing it would be a different matter entirely. Dead games don't breed active player bases (though they do breed dedicated ones, for all their lack of population), and dead companies don't breed live games.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Perhaps we should be comparing how expensive is the ink vs GW miniatures then

Well given that a driver update on my Canon printer just made all my third party inks unusable and it was cheaper to buy a new printer than new Canon inks, I would say yes

The Form 1 printer is $150/L for it's resin. That is about $0.15/cc and a 28mm fig is probably 4 - 6 cc. So about $0.75 a fig. You print out your army of 20 figs for a skirmish game and it cost you $15. Question is, what happens to the rest of the resin? We don't know the shelf life of these resin or how they keep. You may find you need to buy another batch before your next project. If so, those 20 figs ended up not costing you $15, but $150. At that point they are definitely not worth it.

We may find the glorious revolution will arrive and it isn't worth it.

 silent25 wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
Perhaps we should be comparing how expensive is the ink vs GW miniatures then

Well given that a driver update on my Canon printer just made all my third party inks unusable and it was cheaper to buy a new printer than new Canon inks, I would say yes

The Form 1 printer is $150/L for it's resin. That is about $0.15/cc and a 28mm fig is probably 4 - 6 cc. So about $0.75 a fig. You print out your army of 20 figs for a skirmish game and it cost you $15. Question is, what happens to the rest of the resin? We don't know the shelf life of these resin or how they keep. You may find you need to buy another batch before your next project. If so, those 20 figs ended up not costing you $15, but $150. At that point they are definitely not worth it.

We may find the glorious revolution will arrive and it isn't worth it.

Why stop with one army? and what about scenery? Tanks etcerera, i am sure i would used the stuff up.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
You are a Tyranid player, what do you prefer? To wait until GW deems you worthy enough to buy the Tyranid ADL like they did with the Tervigon (and we know how well that ended) or try your hand at making one if you have the tech and skills?

M.

I'd prefer to just paint more Tyranids since an ADL is a terrible choice for a Tyranid army.

Way to miss the point. Perhaps you might be happy with the current situation but where are your spore pods, or the combi-bolters, the Xenos terrain? Many options in the codex are not sculpted because of GW's current atitude of "You will buy whatever I want to put out and like it." with 3d printing we can have access to them because either us or others will make them now plus if we are skilled we will be able to print out our own IG troops or bone swords or whatever to customice our armies.

It's even better, with a 3D scaner I will be able to make terrain withour skulls.

M.

 -Loki- wrote:
I just... don't get it. People are all over this technology, wanting it to make miniature production something that can be accomplished at home for cheap, while (maybe unknowingly) wishing the death of the mainstream hobby if their dream of 'free' miniatures came true.

Why do we assume it's going to be the death of miniature games? You're overlooking two things:

1) Not everyone is willing to pirate stuff. You can get a pdf of any GW book you want with a brief google search (much faster than going out to the store to buy one) but GW still sells books. You can get cheap recasts of a lot of GW models once you know where to look, but people still buy the real thing. So why should we assume that being able to illegally print your own models would be any different? Some people will do it, but those people wouldn't necessarily buy anything anyway.

2) Wargaming doesn't have to be a for-profit activity. Consider the video game modding community. Are people getting paid for their work? No. Do they still do it because they love the hobby and want to build something? Yes. So if 3d printing removes the need for production infrastructure that only a for-profit company can supply miniature wargaming will probably become a similar hobby. Some people will write the rules and design the models because they love the game, and everyone else will just download and play.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Why stop with one army? and what about scenery? Tanks etcerera, i am sure i would used the stuff up.

Because maybe you don't want all that stuff. If I want to build an Infinity army but hate 40k the fact that I can download a Baneblade model and use up the rest of my raw materials doesn't help me very much. Spreading the cost out over a large production run only works if you want all the things you're making, if you don't you're still paying the high per-unit price and just getting a different form of garbage along with it.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
You are a Tyranid player, what do you prefer? To wait until GW deems you worthy enough to buy the Tyranid ADL like they did with the Tervigon (and we know how well that ended) or try your hand at making one if you have the tech and skills?

M.

I'd prefer to just paint more Tyranids since an ADL is a terrible choice for a Tyranid army.

Way to miss the point. Perhaps you might be happy with the current situation but where are your spore pods, or the combi-bolters, the Xenos terrain? Many options in the codex are not sculpted because of GW's current atitude of "You will buy whatever I want to put out and like it." with 3d printing we can have access to them because either us or others will make them now plus if we are skilled we will be able to print out our own IG troops or bone swords or whatever to customice our armies.

Others are making them now. Mycetic spore? there's half a dozen easily buyable on the market. Combi bolters? There's a few places that make addon parts for botlers. Xeno terrain? it's out there, though maybe not exactly what you want. We haven't had to 'just be happy' with what GW produces for years. The quality is hit or miss, but it will be anwyay with printable stuff made by amateurs.

Again, this sounds more like 'I want it but free'. Because these things you're talking about are out there.

Even, hilariously, your example of ADLs. Mr Dandy released Chaos, Tyranid, Necron, Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar ADLs not too long ago.

But it would be so much better being free, as long as someone makes it first so it can be printed. Even with a scanner, someone needs to make it before you can scan it.

And tell me, why is that in the last few years that explosion of options has come to be? Could be that those companies you are talking about are using 3D design/printing perhaps? In that case what we are talking here is but another step forward in that trend.

And again you miss the ADL point I want to make let me quote it for you

with 3d printing we can have access to them because either us or others will make them now plus if we are skilled we will be able to print out our own IG troops or bone swords or whatever to customice our armies.

That's what I want from 3D printing, not free stuff but rather to make my own terrain/weapons/whatever not what GW, Chapterhouse or Mr Mandy makes, ofc if in a scenario were I can print my own those companies come with a better option spurred by the fact that I no longer have to buy their second rate products I'll happily buy whatever I like from their catalogs.

M.

Loki, please stop ignoring all of the points that are being made in favor of just repeating the argument "because piracy". Instead, please try to address the points that I and other have made, which you seem to be ignoring for some unknowable reason... surely it's not because it's not fitting into your doom and gloom narrative, because that would be wrong.

3D Printing, once it reaches the cost and quality standpoint for hobbyists to have one in their home, is going to revolutionize tabletop gaming. This is a given, and it is unavoidable. Yes, piracy will happen, but that happens now. Music and movies are pirated all the time, with no degradation in quality and absolutely no expenditure of money (except electricity and bandwidth).

People still pay for movies and music, especially people that are aficionados and enthusiasts. They might pay less for it, but what is currently driving sales is convenience, and companies that have adjusted their way of doing business (mostly the content delivery companies like Spotify and Netflix) are doing very well. People are willing to pay for quality (or easy access, or a guarantee of service, or whatever).

The sorts of hobbyists that are going to fork over for a home appliance are also people that can be described as "aficionados and enthusiasts". Yes, they'll download 3D schematics and use them to print out copies... but you know what? They'll PAY for good schematics, from professional designers, if they're well-made and convenient to use.

The future that we're going to see is not going to involve the destruction of companies like Corvus Belli. They'll be the ones selling the schematics (with some form of DRM, but that'll get broken just like everything else) and people will buy them for use. As I said in my post (that you ignored) companies that can find a way to succeed with the new tech will do so.

GW will still be in the market selling plastic to kids, because mom and dad aren't going to let junior use the house printer to make up a bunch of toy soldiers. In fact, mom and dad probably won't HAVE a 3D printer: they're not very likely to be household items for quite a long time (and when that happens, the whole world will change). They're pretty much going to remain in the realm of "makers" and dedicated hobbyists. The only places that are likely to be negatively affected by high-quality 3D Printing are FLGS's... but guess where you'll likely find a counter with a 3D printer on it, and a computer with licensed-for-sale schematics attached to it? That's right... your FLGS.

There might be a little bit of doom and gloom, especially for people that work in the casting shops, but for the creative-types that produce the designs for the minis? They'll be just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

Again, this sounds more like 'I want it but free'. Because these things you're talking about are out there.

I don't want it free... but I also don't want to pay for shipping or wait for delivery! I'll gladly pay for the schematic (to the designer), and for the material to print it out (which I'd have in the closet after a run to Office Depot), if I can have it right now, at midnight, on the other side of the world from the guy that designed it.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:


Why stop with one army? and what about scenery? Tanks etcerera, i am sure i would used the stuff up.

Why do people stop at one army now? They have the figs/army they like and that is that.

 silent25 wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:


Why stop with one army? and what about scenery? Tanks etcetera, i am sure i would used the stuff up.

Why do people stop at one army now? They have the figs/army they like and that is that.

What kind of argument is that? Then why do people keep buying stuff when they already have an army, easy accessibility will make it for people easier to start another army.
And i don't mean just piracy, when 3D printing becomes more common there will be people who will make their own 3D designs available for money or for free.

It will not take long for a Scanner/3D printer affordable combo to be available.

Off course a high resolution 3D scanner will be greatly appreciated by re-casters

I can see the tech becoming something like a "white goods" object or something you can get from machine mart. It will be a combined unit, not dirt cheap, but something around the £1,000 mark. It will become something that people use to make replacement house hold parts / machine parts. 10 years from now a plumber could turn up with just a tool box and portable HDD. He plugs in to the customers printer and prints off the part needed. With NASA developing the technology as well,to make spare parts on the moon, this could well become the forerunner to the replicators in Star Trek.

It's sometime in the future, but the tech will be a real game changer society wise.

This will hurt FLGS way before the piracy aspect hits small manufacturers.

What happens when that guy shows up to play at a FLGS with his 100% printed army which he bought nothing at the store. We already see games with Internet only or free rules with no major retail purpose not allowed to be played in FLGS because they can't profit from it and it becomes a waste of space.

While we have been able to print our own magic cards for years, we haven't been "allowed" to use them in pretty much any event anywhere except in our own home.

Personally, gaming is a "leave the house" activity for me. I like gaming at FLGS or other public events. Not in a dank basement while some kid is screaming upstairs.

And I really question all these people of "my own design" talk. If you had the skill to make your own design by sculpting, you would already be doing it as garage casting ain't hard. If you had the skill for 3D rendering you would already be doing it as there are already design and ship companies. People with "the skill" already have full access to this technology. The only people who don't are those who would need to scan someone else's copywriter material and can't get their non-legal infringing designs done via legitimate third party printers right now.

Good for you nkelsch, except that not everybody plays the game the same way you do and for all the good FLGS might do for you, I don't have a local, nor friendly, barely gaming, (but yeah I think there is still one in Osaka) store so my experience about supporting them is kind of different.

On your second point I'll concede I barely have the skill for sculpting, making katana blades for my storm guardians took me a good two weeks and lousy press molds but that doesn't mean I'm going to copy a 3rd party what about comisioning a weapon to a professional sculptor and then printing it? did you think about that option?

Plus in my own experience making molds is much more demanding than designing something made from simple geometric forms and then clicking print. Miniatures might need much more work but bunkers and small simple weapons do not

M.

There really should be some sort of rule that at least 2 weeks must pass between consecutive threads on 3d printing.

No, it will not be the death of the hobby, or of any miniature company, certainly not within any span of time worth considering.

The device in the OP can barely be called affordable and it doesn't even have the resolution to replicate LEGO, let alone 28mm scale miniatures.

This blog post from Statueque Miniatures seems like it fits well here

http://khorosho-productions.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/digital-miniatures-manufacture-its-not.html

even companies selling their services to professional sculptors can make a hash of 3D printing

http://khorosho-productions.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/digital-miniatures-manufacture-its-not.html

so I suspect home (or even store based) 3D printing is still a fair way off, at least for people in this branch of miniature gaming

What the near future hold is stuff that looks no better than the real cheap end of the ancients/civil war miniatures, yes they're usable, but they just don't look shiney enough to be appealing

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
This blog post from Statueque Miniatures seems like it fits well here

Bah! What does Andrew Rae know about doing good 3D prints? Oh yea.... everything.

Were you wanting to link to a second article? You link the same one twice.

@Jehan-reznor: There are plenty of people who can easily afford additional armies already and don't buy them. The multi-army person does not make up the majority of players. There will be a small group that will print out every fig that comes out, but most won't. They will print out their army and then the printer will gather dust in the corner. They may then need to print out a part every once in a while, but like I said, we may find we're having to replace the resin supply between those printings. They have gone bad in the mean time.

Already being discussed here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547720.page

Please continue over there.

Thanks!