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I came into a little money, and I can finally afford to get this brush if I decide I want it. I'm sort of vacillating a little on it, as it's $520. I was previous pretty happy with my Renegade Spirit, but then the body weld broke, I sent it back for service, and the one they sent me back... it's really not the same. It spits, it bubbles, it clogs, it's got all sorts of problems that the original never had (other than during the initial learning curve). Anyway, I want to replace it, and I want something I can use to do OSL on eyes, and will be using minitaire paint. What do you guys thing; are Iwatas worth the premium?

I think if you get that brush then you will know for certain that you have the very best. I've heard a lot about iwata precision and durability. They have to be doing something right since every retailer carries them. If you get one is really like to know what you think of it

That all depends on how much you value your money; only you can decide that.
There are other airbrushes on the market that are fine enough to do OSL on eyes. My Badger Sotar 20/20 can and it is over $200 less than that Iwata. I've seen videos of people doing it with a Harder & Steenbeck Infinity, which is comparable in price to the Sotar. I've never tried, but I'm confident I could do it with my Krome.

Badger Sotar 20/20 f's are 85 dollars on amazon and have been since around christmas. If your looking for a super fine detail brush you should probably pick one up, and save 440 dollars.

tiber55 wrote:
Badger Sotar 20/20 f's are 85 dollars on amazon and have been since around christmas. If your looking for a super fine detail brush you should probably pick one up, and save 440 dollars.

Yeah, I felt like I was stealing that thing when I saw it on there for that price (I paid even less than it is now). I still have no idea why that airbrush is so cheap on there; it retails for over $300 everywhere else.

Iwata are great, but not necessarily the best.
All the big brands make some superb airbrushes. Each with its own strong points.

Look at the other well known brand names for airbrushes with 0.15mm tips, and see what is around.

I personally would go for Harder & Steenbeck Infinity if I had the cash (My H&S Evolution is lovely).



For me here in the UK the German made H&S brushes are a bit more affordable than imported Japanese or American made brushes. In the USA I would see what Badger offer in the 'micron detail' range before making the final choice. (Badger I dont get on with; based on the patriot 105 I have... put me off trying any others but they get plenty of e-praise can't be so bad)
Iwata I've not tryed, but have no reason to suspect them to be inferior in anyway.

One thing I really like about the H&S bruhses is the thought thats gone into engineering the thing; the trigger rocks on a circular piece, its much smoother than a regular hinge, the nozzle doesn't screw on with a fiddly tiny thread, it slots into the air cap which screw on easily by hand.... its the little things that make it stand out once you start using it. H&S are totally tool-less airbrushes (untill the needle seal needs changing that is, then theres a special screw driver with a prong in the center that you need in order to align the thing)

Having bought and tried 4 or 5 other brushes before getting my Evolution Silverline 0.2mm, all cheaper, I'm not looking back
Its definatly worth having mid-range or better stuff for airbrushing at any level of detail.

Lets assume for the moment Badger is out. I don't feel very good about buying another Badger, since I feel if something goes wrong with it, I'm not very confident the servicing will return me a usable airbrush.

I'm also intrigued with the MAC valve; is there a way to add that functionality to a different brush?


Sigh, I'm also - despite what I just said - considering the Krome. If my painting idol, MajorTom, can do so much better than I can with one, maybe I should try that instead, plus it has super high parts commonality with my Renegade Spirit, so I've already got extra needles and nozzles.
Look at this image from the Amazon review page for the Krome! I could never do that with my Renegade.

I'm not sure what a MAC valve is... but if its a fine adjustment to the airflow, then yes.
It can be added in the airline, or some airbrush brands sell an attachment for it (H&S do)

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference, they should all produce the same lines with the same amount of work put in. The differences are how they feel in the hand, how much they cost, and how readily available parts and support is.

When i was choosing a detail brush i went with the sotar because it checked all my boxes, was cheap ( not made cheap but because amazon bought in bulk has a very low cost v.s. the MSRP), is supported well in America parts and repair, and it is lighter smaller than the rest of the badger line with a different weight bias.

The Krome isn't that much more expensive the major differences are that it has a difference balance, is much heavier, can use renegade parts, and has a larger paint cup.

Ultimately it is up to you, but from my perspective, a smaller lighter detail brush is just fine, the parts aren't that much more expensive, and the larger paint cup is wasted on such fine tips as your paint in the cup would dry before you use it.

I love my CMB. I would never part with it and nothing else I've tried is as good as it... but other brushes are close and don't cost as much.

Who was your point of contact with Badger? The sort of problem you describe is really the first Ive heard like this, as on airbrush forums Badger is known for just the opposite- going out of thier way to fix problems.

Bubbling and spitting like you describe sounds mostly like the teflon seal is out of whack- I believe with that model of Renegade you may be able to adjust it yourself(I know you can with a Krome, just not sure if that feature was started with the Renegades...)

Either way, if you'd like I can probly get you in touch with someone that can help you solve that brushes woes, or get you in touch with someone from Badger. Most likely Ken Schlotfeldt as he'd probly want to make sure something like this gets taken care of and likes knowing he has happy customers.

But to answer your original question- 520$ for a single brush is absurd unless you are a full time professional artist that knows exactly why you need that specific tool

If you upgrade I'd suggest a Krome- for the reasons you already know- you have a bunch of compatible parts. And while you might think its just a shiny renegade because it uses the same needle & tips- the trigger is actually very different. The renegades were designed for use in like auto body shops- so theyre a robust 'tool like' trigger and rather heavy. Alot of people didnt like that. So on the Krome, they redesigned it, made it lighter and more adjustable, smoother. And alot easier to get precise results with. If nothing else- its Amazon- try it out- if not impressed just give it a decent clean and return it

OK, thank you all for the responses; I really appreciate it.

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:There are other airbrushes on the market that are fine enough to do OSL on eyes. My Badger Sotar 20/20 can and it is over $200 less than that Iwata. .

I wound up going with your advice - thank you. My Sotar arrived this morning. How do you calibrate the needle limiter, by the way?

HairySticks wrote:I'm not sure what a MAC valve is... but if its a fine adjustment to the airflow, then yes.
It can be added in the airline, or some airbrush brands sell an attachment for it (H&S do)

And, I also got a PAC valve which also arrived today; which is the fine adjustment thing, though it mounts between the airline and the brush instead of built-in. It was like $16 so thanks for the tip, I had never considered it was an addon.

Mistress of minis wrote:Who was your point of contact with Badger? The sort of problem you describe is really the first Ive heard like this, as on airbrush forums Badger is known for just the opposite- going out of thier way to fix problems.

Bubbling and spitting like you describe sounds mostly like the teflon seal is out of whack- I believe with that model of Renegade you may be able to adjust it yourself(I know you can with a Krome, just not sure if that feature was started with the Renegades...)

Either way, if you'd like I can probly get you in touch with someone that can help you solve that brushes woes, or get you in touch with someone from Badger. Most likely Ken Schlotfeldt as he'd probly want to make sure something like this gets taken care of and likes knowing he has happy customers.

But to answer your original question- 520$ for a single brush is absurd unless you are a full time professional artist that knows exactly why you need that specific tool

If you upgrade I'd suggest a Krome- for the reasons you already know- you have a bunch of compatible parts. And while you might think its just a shiny renegade because it uses the same needle & tips- the trigger is actually very different. The renegades were designed for use in like auto body shops- so theyre a robust 'tool like' trigger and rather heavy. Alot of people didnt like that. So on the Krome, they redesigned it, made it lighter and more adjustable, smoother. And alot easier to get precise results with. If nothing else- its Amazon- try it out- if not impressed just give it a decent clean and return it

I don't know who I spoke with; I just printed out the return form and included a check for $8 and sent it over. I'm not an airbrush master but I've been using the renegade for quite a long time now and I think I have a pretty solid feel for how it should be performing, and how to avoid spitting and bubbling - but I've never dealt with a bad needle seal (which is not user serviceable on this model, btw*). I have spent a really long time this week browsing airbrush forums since I'm covering a bunch of vacation days so have been at work every night for holy run on sentence; but anyway it seems to be a pretty good consensus that Badger has good support and my issue with them was an outlier. I will mess with my renegade again and if it still happens, I will contact them again.

What ultimately decide on the Sotar was in fact the parts issue. I don't necessarily have a problem with spending more on parts, but it seems that my usual places to shop don't carry parts for the CMC+ - I'd have to wait a week or more for them to arrive. Meanwhile Amazon has all the stuff, and since I have prime, I could (and have) had a new nozzle overnighted for $4. That was what swayed me.

Thank you all again for the advice, it was invaluable.


*assuming we mean R-007:

Interestingly enough, you notice there is no PFTE washer between R001 and the main body? Every other airbrush I own has one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, going back to the renegade for a second: I see a bunch of people selling this thing. I have no idea what this thing is or where it is in the airbrush - when I've broken it down, as I have many many times, I have never seen this part. If this is what you are referring to, MoM - I don't know how to service it but it seems different than the part that is not user serviceable.

 Ouze wrote:
OK, thank you all for the responses; I really appreciate it.

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:There are other airbrushes on the market that are fine enough to do OSL on eyes. My Badger Sotar 20/20 can and it is over $200 less than that Iwata.

I wound up going with your advice - thank you. My Sotar arrived this morning. How do you calibrate the needle limiter, by the way?

No problem, man. It is a wonderful airbrush and the more I use it, the more I like it. Out of the three I have in my current rotation (Master G44 for varnishing, Krome for general purpose & Sotar for detail work), it is by far the best.

As far as a "scientific" method of the calibrating the needle limiter, I'm not sure. I don't do it very often (I prefer to do it manually with the trigger because I feel like I have more control), but when I do, I usually just adjust to what I think might be close and then test on a paper towel and make adjustments as I see fit.

I would say no. I have a iwata neo and it was about $200. It works really well. Buy pro painted guy uses a $30 airbrush for nails.

Ouze wrote:
Also, going back to the renegade for a second: I see a bunch of people selling this thing. I have no idea what this thing is or where it is in the airbrush - when I've broken it down, as I have many many times, I have never seen this part. If this is what you are referring to, MoM - I don't know how to service it but it seems different than the part that is not user serviceable.

I wasn't sure if it was with the Renegades or if that was a feature they introduced with the Krome. I've never had the opportunity to take apart any of the Renegades, so I wasn't sure. If I mentioned it as more than a possibility, sorry about the confusion. And that ebay link is for a needle seal for a badger 350, so I don't know if that would have anything to do with a Renegade since the part pictured doesnt match anything in the parts diagram.


For your question about using the Sotar Needle stop, thats done pretty much by feel. Since most paints flow different, and will work different depending on PSI, humidity and even barometric pressure can affect it- those little metering marks on the needle stop aren't really all that helpful with acrylic paints. If you do use the needle stop, the easiest method is to just test spray and dial it in, and it then limits the maximum spray. Its rather helpful for getting consistency with freehand lines and other really small work. But as Scooty mentioned, alot of people dont even use it, so its a preference thing.

One thing I will mention on the SOTAR- as you mentioned PTFE seals on hte spray heads- the SOTAR does have one- and its a very very sneaky little piece of plastic- I call it the White Ninja- as it will pop off when you disassemble it for cleaning and do a really good job of trying to disappear. Dont let the happen or you'll have a huge backflow/bubbling issue. In the WGC facebook group we just had a user with this happen and they went through the whole trouble shooting list until I asked if that plastic ring was in place Its pretty much the only Badger brush with that sort of a ring on it too...

Anyhow, hope you enjoy that SOTAR, its a good piece of gear

 spacewolved wrote:
I would say no. I have a iwata neo and it was about $200. It works really well. Buy pro painted guy uses a $30 airbrush for nails.

not true. he has a video where he basically says that cheap airbrush sucks and he bought an evolution silverline 2 in 1.

OP, I would buy it if you have the money. I want that airbrush too. I'm hoping maybe I can find a sale on it someday.

I have an HPCS, first and only airbrush ive bought. ive dropped it many times, usually because my dogs go crazy and knock it flying off the table. bent the needle, bent the back of the needle, the nozzle is far from perfect. I straightened out the needle tip several times as best I could using pliers and a scalpel. I have left it sitting in a cup full of simple green for sometimes a full week at a time.

despite all that it still sprays like a dream and im far better with it now than I was when I first bought it 3 years ago.

 Mistress of minis wrote:
And that ebay link is for a needle seal for a badger 350, so I don't know if that would have anything to do with a Renegade since the part pictured doesnt match anything in the parts diagram.

As a belated update to this.

For that auction, the description in the auction is inaccurate, but the title bar description and image is correct (I guess he copied and pasted the main body without checking carefully). In fact, this was the part that was giving me the trouble. After posting this and looking much more into it, the main problem was spitting and leaking from the needle. It turns out the Renegade Spirit and one of the other Renegades are the only airbrushes Badger makes with adjustable needle seals, as pictured - the rest are press in seals which are not user replaceable. I have tightened the needle seal on the Spirit and that has eliminated pretty much all of the problems I was having. You can see it in that parts diagram in the middle bottom, off to the side. It's not well documented because I don't think they want people fooling with this, and again it's literally a feature on only 2 brushes they make, apparently.

I don't regret getting the Sotar at all because now I can use my old 150 for terrain basecoating with the biggest needle, the renegade as a workhorse for most work, and the Sotar for the very finest stuff; without having to swap out heads or needles.

That you as well for the tip on that white washer. I did know about it, the Spirit doesn't have it, but both the Sotar and the 150 do, and i'm always paranoid about losing it (along with the nozzle, which I once washed down a sink :( ) .

As you said the measurements weren't very handy after all, I'm still doing it by feel. I totally do use it though.

I also feel pretty good about not getting the CM plus after all. I really can do hairlines with the SOTAR (if I am very careful and get the reduction just right), so that leaves me like 400 bucks to spend on Forge World things I can look at once and then put away unpainted for years.

Probably.

Thank you again for all your help with this. As with every time I post on this topic, I now know substantially more than I did beforehand.


Oh yeah, one more question. Usually with the side feed renegade, I wash it by shooting some water through it, then some air opaque, then some water, and I swipe out the cup and put it away. After 5 or 6 such sessions, I soak it in 50/50 simple green and water for an hour or so in the ultrasonic bath, then I rinse it off and re-oil it. For the Sotar though, on the very first use with that regimen of water-cleaner-water there was some paint residue inside the paint well and inside the body around the needle. Do I need to break it down every time, or is the paint in the paint well OK until it builds up for a few sessions, or something in the middle here? It's my first gravity fed brush.

 Ouze wrote:

Also, going back to the renegade for a second: I see a bunch of people selling this thing. I have no idea what this thing is or where it is in the airbrush - when I've broken it down, as I have many many times, I have never seen this part. If this is what you are referring to, MoM - I don't know how to service it but it seems different than the part that is not user serviceable.

That looks simlar to what goes into my Harder & Steenbeck Evolution, They hav a special screw driver for removing / putting it back in.
Its a flat head screw driver, with a central prong that perfectly fits through the center of the seal.
The purpose of it is to align the seal.... youl never pull it off without the tooling tbh.
With the tooling, the piece can be removed and the teflon seal replaced, correctly aligned and put back in.
This is actually the only tool required for servicing a H&S airbrush, the rest of the connections are all finger screws. I assume the same tool will be needed for any other airbrush needle seal.