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So, the Tactical Squad. This unit undertook some fairly significant changes and was both strengthened and weakened as a choice in the new Codex.

The drop from 16 points to 14 was huge and was to be expected. This, with the fact that you can choose a heavy weapon or special weapon at 5 men opened up a number of things.

First of all, there's now less reason to take home objective sniper scouts. Even though Scouts got cheaper they're still just as mediocre as they always were in shooting. You no longer need to take a 10 man Tactical Squad in order to gain a heavy weapon combat squad, which at first glance, seems like a fairly reasonable choice. You get to add effective firepower to a pool dedicated to a certain role that you find elsewhere in your army (as in, AT/Anti MC, Anti-infantry, AA, etc) and at that you get a scoring unit. I think that maybe one or two are worth it, but only because of the latter reason.

To quote an example previously posted by myself:

*
Combat Squad with Lascannon - 90 points
Tri-Las Predator - 140 points
Full Lascan Devastator Squad - 150 points

So basically, for somewhere in the region of a 60%~ increase in price, you're getting 3-4 times as much firepower.

You'll find that similar comparisons exist for AA and Anti-Scoring. I believe there may be a new way of running a backboard combat squad though.

SM Tactical Squad, 5 men, with Grav Gun and Combi Grav - 95 points

Since the unit is going to be stationary often you're usually getting the full 3 shots of the GG's, and at 18'' range this means the unit is going to be able to fire quite often against aggressive armies that like to reach you and smash you off your objectives. For 95 points having 3 (6 on one occassion) AP2 shots that will be wounding on good rolls quite often in addition to 3-4 bolters and scoring, I think that's a neat purchase that will work well with some lists. For reference, against TEQ with the full firepower of both GG's you get 2.667 wounds on average. It suffers from two disadvantages in that A) a Flakk Missile combat squad costs the same and B) Its pretty useless if your opponent is something like Tau.

8 Scout Snipers (88 points) gives you average 2 wounds (AP6) and a 2/3 chance for a rend overall, which I will let explain itself for my own views on Scout Snipers. In the case of A) I would seriously recommend you defer to using an alternative source of AA first and B) Being so cheap not having them on the frontlines isn't a great loss - at worst you can just hide them out of sight. When you consider the potential this unit has for tackling aggressive MC's, heavy infantry and some vehicles you may find (Wave Serpents pop to mind) I think it is indeed a fairly reasonable choice.

Mechanized Marines

Another way you may wish to use Tacticals is shoving them in a Rhino and throwing them at the enemy and their objectives. Well, for a number of reasons I believe this tactic has had its day (competitively) with only scant exceptions.

Lets talk about armour for a second. I've played SM mechanized a lot and I have found that 6th edition has not been kind to my metal boxes. On a number of occasions my boxes never accomplished their purpose to any useful extent, either by blowing up straight away, stranding a squad of Marines, or by only having the opportunity to move the sort of distance I could have achieved through footslogging anyway (not that I necessarily advocate that at all)- usually when playing aggressive armies, for instance. I've also found that when you do disgorge your Marines, you roll a load of dice, pump fire into different targets, and maybe you'll cripple one target but in the majority of instances it won't be enough, because if your opponent is presenting targets that he knows would get ripped to pieces by Tactical Marines, you're dreaming. Plague Marines, Daemons, hordes, MC's, etc see your guys as merely the ideal dinner.

AV11 3 HP is not reliable enough to see your Marines to their objective anymore. Some opponents won't have easy ways of popping them early, sure, but those that do will be the ones that will end the match saying 'good game' quite meaningfully and vocally. First Blood wins games, and with Rhinos you're essentially giving it away for free unless you get first turn and have an alpha strike unit that can reliably steal it. If you don't make much use of them you've essentially bought a 35 point Storm Bolter that can force morale checks if it survives longer than the time it takes for your opponent to see them as a threat.

Because you don't need to get to 10 men to unlock Heavies/Specials anymore, there's no need for taking the extra 5 guys in the box. The heavy weapon is going to be snap-firing for one or two turns, it now costs points that you could have spent elsewhere, and it means you're buying 4 more deadweight bolters that are mediocre.

When I first picked up C:SM I ranted and raved about how great I thought CT:RG and CT:KWS was for my mechanized marines, as scout means that a defensive opponent cannot rely on having a free shooting phase before your Tacticals get anywhere threatening.

Based on the information that you'll probably be running 5 man squads, lets do a break down:

Tactical Squad of 5 in a Rhino. -105 points.

Bike Squad of 5. -105 points.

Yeah. This made me go 'uh, what?' too.

You exchange being impervious to small arms fire against an opponent who for some reason hasn't brought the tools to crack open the metal box and the ability to walk up stairs for:

-Increased toughness.
-Twinlinked Bolters
-Relentless
-12'' movement
-up to 12'' movement in the shooting phase instead of D6
-Hit and Run
-Hammer of Wrath

But the real buzzkill is the fact you gain the ability to take an extra special weapon, which if its a Grav Gun, is effectively 33% more AP2 firepower over taking a Grav Gun/Plasma Gun (including combi) pair in a Tactical Squad. Although of limited relevance due to high cost you can also take an Attack Bike for AT.

While of course, this only takes into account that you've purchased a Biker Captain, I am viewing this from a competitive/tournament level perspective. I think this information alone is enough reason to change the core of my lists.

CT:RG doesn't get the bonuses for bikes, but on the competitive level you'll be using KWS for the scout gimmick anyway.

As I mentioned before, there are scant possible exceptions. You may be playing non RG/KWS and want the odd one or two 'background units' that is only there to grab an objective in the midfield or backfield, if you have reasons for not just using a drop pod. If you're using CT:UM, the bonus of having the Tactical doctrine at one (or two) points during the game is arguably enough to address the issue of not having enough firepower - with the re-rolls, your firepower becomes greater or equal to compared to the Bike Squad. There will be other exceptions too.

I'm not too keen on Razorbacks either. As a fire platform a Tri-Las predator has 33% more firepower than a pair of TLLC RB's for double the cost and is to some degree less vulnerable to being first blood bait. You'll often come into conflict as to whether to move or fire the RB's at all and on those occassions you don't the investment becomes wasteful in the event that the likely scenario of losing your RB's occur.

Whew, that's an hour of typing. I'll update the post later after initial responses. I've omitted the following deliberately:

-Special Weapon and Heavy Weapon individual analysis (for a later update)
-Drop Pods (I don't use them, I want to hear DD's thoughts)
-Conclusion (Again, I want to hear your thoughts)
-Additional commentary on Razorbacks
-Possibly various other things. I was quite tired when I made this thread.

I'll update the OP with any posts that are of particular worth, especially those on DP's. Commentary of your own is appreciated.

Edit:




Part 2 : Choosing roles and weapons

Before we begin this section, lets analyse the complete equipment of the SM Tactical Squad:

Boltgun - Thy holy explosive projectile dispenser.

Yeah, I wish. You don't want too many of these at all in a tournament/competitive list, but in a casual/semi or even generally competitive local meta they're often quite effective. You want to be in 2 shot rapid fire range all the time unless what you're going to fire at is inevitably going to come after you next turn.

Bolt Pistol - New players sometimes forget all Marines have these. They allow you to shoot and charge a lesser unit successfully - but I'd be weary of killing enough of the enemy to put you out of charge range. To avoid this, make good use of 'Focus Fire' to shoot enemies in the back ranks.

For information on how to make use of it refer to this helpful set of articles:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/the-truth-about-cover-saves-in-40k/#focus1
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/08/focus-fire-part-2-taking-your-40k-shooting-to-the-next-level/
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/08/focus-fire-part-3-when-you-absolutely-positively-gotta-kill-everyone-in-the-room/

Frag Grenades - Allows you to charge units in cover without penalty, which is nice against GEQ. I've seen tournament players completely forget that these have a ranged profile now - S3 small blast. If you're facing clumped up enemies it can be a better idea to throw one over an extra two bolter shots on occasion.

Krak Grenades - The unit can throw one (good for absolutely last ditch vehicle/MC kills) and new players often forget that if you charge most vehicles you can kill them - because these are S6 and you hit those vehicles on their rear armour in an assault.

Teleport Homer (purchaseable) - Has good, cheap synergy with deep striking units. Can form a strategy all its on own with Rhino squads - another arguable exception.

Now, Special Weapons. All I can say is, you should probably take one unless its a backfield squad (and even in that case Grav Guns are viable)

Plasma Gun: Good for mobile Tactical Squads, drop pod squads. Don't expect the unit to be a great threat to heavy infantry (outside of MEQ with 3+ saves) but realize that its a good bit of supporting fire against MC's or those Terminator esque units. Every 1 in 20 shots kills a Marine on average, and it is the most expensive gun with the Grav, but its still a fairly potent choice.

Grav Gun: Good for static defense and shaving wounds off MC's with good armour saves like Riptides. In a pinch, it neuters vehicles, which is always nice, and supports CC units by reducing enemy units to initiative one with concussive. Salvo hurts it the most as these are non-relentless models - move, and you've got both half range and the first profile.

Flamers: These wipe out scoring units on objectives fairly effectively - in the right place (and admittedly, against the right target) they could win the game single-handedly. They become even meaner with the Salamanders Chapter Tactics, and work best against infantry on the level below average Joe Schmoe Marines. Also, they're a nightmare to pansies on Jetbikes, because you're removing their precious jink saves.

Melta Gun: Unfortunately, not a fan of these at all unless you're using Chapter Tactics : Salamanders with Vulkan. Reason being, the use of vehicles isn't as common anymore - back in 5th, you had reason to expect vehicles in most matches in many local meta's and tournaments. Nowadays, you're far more likely to encounter an MC or tough infantry, where the extra shot proves invaluable. (Vulkan's re-roll makes meltas almost as good anyway while having versatility)

Heavy Weapons:

Heavy Bolter: 'Thy heavy nerf gun' is not that good at all unless you're facing extremely specific targets like Guardsmen or Orks, and the alternatives are always better.

Heavy Flamer: You can't take these. I'm just reminding you.

Multi-Melta: In a drop pod list, possibly quite effective and for minimal investment, especially with Vulkan. Don't take it with backboard squads, the range is too limiting, and a Grav Gun squad may be a far better choice against aggressive armies.

Missile Launcher: Not half as good as they used to be, unfortunately. If you're not taking flakk missiles always take the 5 point upgrade for 1+ strength and AP2 from a Lascannon. Riptides, heavy vehicles and the fact you're not taking as much melta are all good reasons to. As a flakk missile unit keep them backboard and as minimal investment, maybe manning a quad gun or other fortification.

Plasma Cannon: Iffy. Quite good as anti-infantry supporting fire, but there's a point to be made as to why you wouldn't just take a Lascannon for the extra 5 points and sacrifice a bit of infantry killing power for AT and Anti-MC versatility.

Lascannon: My favourite. Instant kills hardcore 2+ save Infantry like Paladins, Crisis Suits, shaves the odd wound of Riptides (always handy) and is quite effective against light vehicles, a reasonable last ditch shot against heavier vehicles. Also has 48'' range, but is the most expensive.

Sergeant's Weaponry:

Plasma Pistol, Grav Pistol, Bolt Pistol (+CCW): Never, ever take. They're inefficient and too expensive. There is always a better use of points than these.

You may wonder why I put 'bolt pistol' (+CCW) in there. Simply put, you fire more than you get to use the extra attack in the charge, and the former is often times more decisive. Yes it looks cool, no I wouldn't do it. There's no reason to feel bad about ignoring this piece of advice if you're not playing too competitively though - its not a great deal.

Combi-Weapon : Very good choice if you're running a unit with a special weapon. For a turn, its as good as having two specials ( which at times is huge) and you also benefit from precision shot with those juicy AP2 shots - with a static Grav Gun its brutal. In fact, I'd almost say they're mandatory - but you may not always have the points or the need for them.

CC weapons of all stripes : You really don't need me to spell out what these do - you're probably acutely aware that power fists kill Terminators, Swords kill MEQ, etc.

I have an opinion on all of them : Don't. Its upsetting but honestly they suffer from the same problems as plasma pistol syndrome and then some - most units are intimidated in the slightest by the presence of one, challenges invalidate them to quite some extent and they cost a ton for limited effectiveness.

Ok, I concede there's some merit to taking them with Salamanders- you may as well make the most of that secondary bonus, after all. If you do run them, I'd make them similar and have them suit the shooting role of the squad.

Also, good information on Drop Pods and Combat Squads, as well as Salamanders:

Very interesting. Thanks for the read. I'm a new player and I was pretty baffled why rhinos/razorbacks seemed so ubiquitous in SM lists.

First I would like to say I found the write up interesting. I had not thought of using a grav TAC squad to hold a home objective. There indeed could be a use for this.

The comparison to scouts is somewhat tilted as they should normally be taken to stick in fortified ruins w/ camo cloaks or to stand behind an ADL w/ a quadd gun. The first role the TAC squad cannot do but the second role would be a good place for your grav TAC. This is even more so if you think about mid field ADL (more later).

Scouting 5 man TAC squads in rhinos would work well with any of the same combi+Special combinations. Double flamer, double melta, and double plasma would all be nasty when you can close 24" before you fire. Double grav becomes viable when you close 12" before moving but you probably will not see much of this in KWS lists.

The KWS force will probably have majority bikes as that is the entire reason for WS existing. The bikes are so much better at grav due to relentless. The bikes however do need 1 unit of people that can climb stairs. A rhino+10 TAC squad may end up being a popular addition to this type of force just to provide some stairs capable bodies.

The comparison of the 5 man+rhino unit may not be a great comparison to the bike unit. Especially comparing them in the context to a khan list. Though an interesting side note is that in such a list they can hide behind a landraider holding grav cannon cents that scout in front of them using khan's ability. Still if you are not taking bikes in a WS list you haven't read the chapter tactics. (BTW you left off some big benefits from the bikes; +1 jink and essentially ignoring terrain).

Surviving first turn with a rhino rush is not as bad as you paint it. You can start an ADL at the middle of the board (your side) and scout the rhino's up to it against a shooting army. This allows you to absorb turn 1 shooting with a 4++ and then move and disgorge 12", pop smoke, and shoot. You should check out Reece's most recent UM batreps for some good rhino tactics. Keep in mind rhinos leave terrain behind when destroyed.

Scout rhinos are going to really mess with aggressive armies. The SM player sets up in a long line across their side. They can then scout over and back so as to get into perfect range to shoot and not get charge by the flesh hounds and to close on the correct threats. The rhino's also give an extra something you have to break through to hurt the SM and then leaves craters and terrain all of the battle field for the marines to use.

Flooding the opponent's board with cheap SM bodies is actually a viable option. Take a bunch of combi+special 10 man units and throw some TFC and storm talons to help out. If nothing else the opponent will be so busy kill SM that they cannot worry about clearing objectives.

Drop pods are also excellent for getting 1 really nasty squad behind the opponent or to drop an entire army behind the opponent. Don't forget you split the combat squads after warlord so you can now drop the 5 man combi+special and keep the heavy 5 man on the board behind ADL, in a bastion/firestorm, or in fortified ruins.

I think legion of the damned have not caught on as much as they will. They are a perfect support for a RG rhino rush list where you flood the opponent's board with 3+ bodies. A 5 man squad with a special+heavy+combi-sarge will be brutal. Just imagine the effects of a combi-grav, grav gun, and plasma cannon landing in the back field and ignoring cover for 165 pts. Or a melta, multi-melta, and combi-melta landing in the opponent's lines and ignoring cover. Remember they are slow and purposeful and get to reroll the scatter dice if you want. With their 3++ invulnerable save they can even stay around given how many TAC marines should be in the opponent's face.

Even with a point reduction I think allied guard does a better job of backfield objective camping than scouts. Guardsmen absorbfire better when they g2g, and nasty ignore cover dakka tend to waste scouts as easy as guardsmen.

I think the role of scouts should be outflanking or assaulting outof an open topped transport. They have enough cc punch to bully weak units or vehicles, and the new LSS is really nice.

ENEMY Tac marines are a huge pain to remove from your deployment zone. Ultramarines have a huge increase in dakka. White scars are a huge threat to gun lines. If they go 1st between scout, move, and flat out 60 tac marines can end turn 1inside an enemy deployment zone.

Cheap bolters may also be needed against the new nids. Large numbers of tac marines have the potential to out cc a tau/eldar gun line and out dakka nids.

The advantage of a Tactical Squad is its numbers, versatility, and resilience. If you just want the special weapons, Bikes are much better-- but a 10-man Tactical Squad in Rhino is far, far more resilient than a unit of bikes.

Overall, 5-man Tactical squads really aren't a strong option IMO-- but I expect 10-man ones to be the core of many strong armies. Bolters are far from "deadweight" in 6th edition, and Tacs now meaningfully threaten many armies' core units in assault.

I am a Drop Pod player. (Salamanders) Personally, I think this edition only made the tac squad stronger.

Now, I always (almost always, anyway) Combat Squad. The ability to deliver two scoring units in the same deep strike is quite valuable. I usually deploy the heavy weapon (multi-melta) with one squad, and the special (flamer) and sergeant (combi-melta, lightning claw) in another. If cover is required for survival, the heavy weapon squad can still scramble to a modicum of safety, getting twin-linked Snap Shots with their heavy weapon. ("Twin-linked Snap Shots" needs to be a Campbell's Soup flavor, because they're mmm-mmm good. ) The fact that ATSKNF only got better in 6th means that even one single marine who survives is still a scoring unit that can't be chased away by failed Leadership checks.

Meanwhile, the other squad can put pinpoint pressure where I need it most. Flamer for anti-infantry, master-crafted combi-melta for a tank. Since I'm podding in, there's a good chance I can catch some rear armor with some bolter fire, as well. And we can't forget the additional grenade that each combat squad is entitled to. The combat squads allow the possibility of peeling bubble wrap, as well. Flamer squad takes out the gaunts, or guardsmen, or what have you, and frees the other squad up to crack open the tank they were shielding. (If this is the intent at the beginning of the game, I will often put the sergeant in with the heavy weapon in this case.)

The disadvantage of the tactical squad is that it excels at nothing. What it excels at is balance, and it's up to the player to use that correctly. Tactical squads deep striking in to assault Tau gunlines are always a hoot. (Using terrain to stay out of LOS of every Tau unit but the one you intend to charge is a good way to cut down on that Supporting Fire, I find.)

I was having no trouble winning my games before this codex dropped, and the new codex came with a 15 point price reduction to the loadout I give my tactical squads. (Although in the interests of full disclosure, I did change up the way I run them in light of the new 'dex. However, either loadout is still 15 points cheaper between the codexes.)

 Kingsley wrote:
The advantage of a Tactical Squad is its numbers, versatility, and resilience. If you just want the special weapons, Bikes are much better-- but a 10-man Tactical Squad in Rhino is far, far more resilient than a unit of bikes.

Overall, 5-man Tactical squads really aren't a strong option IMO-- but I expect 10-man ones to be the core of many strong armies. Bolters are far from "deadweight" in 6th edition, and Tacs now meaningfully threaten many armies' core units in assault.

Numbers, versatility and resilience mean nothing against AP2/3, which just evaporated most of your unit. Having 40 Marines charging towards objectives sounds great but in reality you're just being wittled down and you can't kill what's sitting next to those objectives and beyond - MC's, Riptides and Heavy Infantry, because you wasted your points on bolters.

An equivalent squad of Bikes has more defensive quality than Tacticals. You get 1+ toughness, a jink save, and hit and run. You have a defense against AP2/3 outside of cover which bogs you down, you are practically impervious to S3 spam, in addition to being able to escape being tied up in CC.

Investing more points in other things like AP2/Anti-MC everywhere else is far preferable to spamming bolters. You don't want to be losing a squad of 10 Tacticals, which can happen just like that in the current meta, to be a big loss.

The assault capability of Tac Marines has not increased - that's completely false. Chaos Marines got better in assault, cultists are just Guardsmen and often aren't presented like candy. Dark Angels and Space Marine Tacs got no worse, Tau got far better with supporting fire and viable kroot walls, and Eldar got Guardians that became no worse in the assault, and got slightly better with bladestorm.

Edit: Will update OP later this evening.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Numbers, versatility and resilience mean nothing against AP2/3, which just evaporated most of your unit. Having 40 Marines charging towards objectives sounds great but in reality you're just being wittled down and you can't kill what's sitting next to those objectives and beyond - MC's, Riptides and Heavy Infantry, because you wasted your points on bolters.

Huh? AP 2/3 is decreasingly relevant at present. 6th edition TAC lists are largely about massed basic Troops units-- which Tacticals both provide and deal with much better than Bikes do. Ironically, Bikes are also more vulnerable to AP 2/3, because the most relevant AP 2/3 weapons wound on 2+ anyway.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
An equivalent squad of Bikes has more defensive quality than Tacticals. You get 1+ toughness, a jink save, and hit and run. You have a defense against AP2/3 outside of cover which bogs you down, you are practically impervious to S3 spam, in addition to being able to escape being tied up in CC.

You don't have Hit and Run unless you're White Scars, and White Scars Tacticals also have Hit and Run. Bikes are only really defensively efficient against strength 3, which is not very common. There's a chance that Codex: Imperial Guard will make strength 3 more relevant, but right now I'm far from worried.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Investing more points in other things like AP2/Anti-MC everywhere else is far preferable to spamming bolters. You don't want to be losing a squad of 10 Tacticals, which can happen just like that in the current meta, to be a big loss.

Losing 10 Tacticals is only a big loss if you don't take enough Tacticals. I also think you are seriously underestimating the survivability of 10-man Tactical Squads. As for MCs, certainly they are a threat that you should be prepared to deal with-- but Tacticals aren't exactly useless against MCs. Further, it's not like taking Tactical Marines removes the ability to take tri-las Predators...

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The assault capability of Tac Marines has not increased - that's completely false. Chaos Marines got better in assault, cultists are just Guardsmen and often aren't presented like candy. Dark Angels and Space Marine Tacs got no worse, Tau got far better with supporting fire and viable kroot walls, and Eldar got Guardians that became no worse in the assault, and got slightly better with bladestorm.

Tacs didn't get better in assault, but they were always better than people gave them credit for, and in the present environment Tactical Marines outclass nearly any commonly fielded basic unit in assault. It's not about the Tacticals, it's about the meta.

 Kingsley wrote:
The advantage of a Tactical Squad is its numbers, versatility, and resilience. If you just want the special weapons, Bikes are much better-- but a 10-man Tactical Squad in Rhino is far, far more resilient than a unit of bikes..

How many bikes are we talking about here? What weapons are being shot at them? Depending on the tools uses, bikes can actually be more resilient on a per-point basis.

 Kingsley wrote:
Losing 10 Tacticals is only a big loss if you don't take enough Tacticals. I also think you are seriously underestimating the survivability of 10-man Tactical Squads.

I do agree with you on this point, Kingsley. Many weapons in the meta today give full armor saves yet provide great number of shots. These are the weapons you use to kill units of Xenos. These are not the best weapons to use against an army with a 3+ save. As such, marines can be pretty darn tough in today's meta.

It does not mean that a squad of marines is invulnerable. If your opponent dedicates half or more of his army to kill one squad of 3+ saves, hes going to do it. That's the way the game works. However, that one squad of MEQ only cost you 140 (plus trimmings) in points.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Numbers, versatility and resilience mean nothing against AP2/3, which just evaporated most of your unit. Having 40 Marines charging towards objectives sounds great but in reality you're just being wittled down and you can't kill what's sitting next to those objectives and beyond - MC's, Riptides and Heavy Infantry, because you wasted your points on bolters.

Huh? AP 2/3 is decreasingly relevant at present. 6th edition TAC lists are largely about massed basic Troops units-- which Tacticals both provide and deal with much better than Bikes do.

I'm sorry, but this made me giggle. If you mass scoring units in this edition and go up against someone who massed killing power in this edition you get smashed. If you do not take AP2 in your lists in ample supply quite frankly you are doing it wrong, because you need it to kill Riptides, MC's and heavy infantry, and now if you face the prospect that you can't you die horribly.


Ironically, Bikes are also more vulnerable to AP 2/3, because the most relevant AP 2/3 weapons wound on 2+ anyway.

Except you get a jink save with bikes. And since you're 2-3 times as fast you can escape or move forward and neutralize said sources of firepower far, far easier.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
An equivalent squad of Bikes has more defensive quality than Tacticals. You get 1+ toughness, a jink save, and hit and run. You have a defense against AP2/3 outside of cover which bogs you down, you are practically impervious to S3 spam, in addition to being able to escape being tied up in CC.

You don't have Hit and Run unless you're White Scars,and White Scars Tacticals also have Hit and Run.

My bad on hit and run, but seriously, if you're taking White Scars Tacticals you should be running them minimal, because taking bikes is just a no brainer with their chapter tactics.


Bikes are only really defensively efficient against strength 3, which is not very common.

And AP2/3, and the bolter fire you're parading as being anything other than naff.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Investing more points in other things like AP2/Anti-MC everywhere else is far preferable to spamming bolters. You don't want to be losing a squad of 10 Tacticals, which can happen just like that in the current meta, to be a big loss.

Losing 10 Tacticals is only a big loss if you don't take enough Tacticals.

A 10 man Tactical Squad in transport is going to come somewhere between 180-200 points, if you take a special weapon, combi-weapon/heavy weapon, which should be considered practically mandatory. At 1850 that's more than a tenth of your army wiped out.

5 Marines comes to 70 points. So for every two Tactical Squads where you don't waste points on bolters and delusions of 'durability' you're getting a Tri-Las Predator, Storm Talon, Devastator Squad, SW spam Bike Squad, etc, which might go on to shave half the wounds off a Riptide, blow up a tank, shoot down a flyer, or better.

I also think you are seriously underestimating the survivability of 10-man Tactical Squads. As for MCs, certainly they are a threat that you should be prepared to deal with-- but Tacticals aren't exactly useless against MCs.

One special weapon, one combi-weapon at best. Even with both being plasmas rapid firing that's 1.185 unsaved wounds if they have the common 5+ invulnerable or cover, 1.778 without. So basically brother, unless you have another ace up your sleeve or 4-5 of those squads all within Rapid Firing range (both extremely unlikely and extremely impractical) you're not going to kill that MC that's now going to rip through that squad like a knife through tracing paper.

Further, it's not like taking Tactical Marines removes the ability to take tri-las Predators...

It does when the core of your list comes to about 600-800 points and is practically useless against common, deadly and vicious units like MC's, infantry heavier than thou and other units designed to kill you.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The assault capability of Tac Marines has not increased - that's completely false. Chaos Marines got better in assault, cultists are just Guardsmen and often aren't presented like candy. Dark Angels and Space Marine Tacs got no worse, Tau got far better with supporting fire and viable kroot walls, and Eldar got Guardians that became no worse in the assault, and got slightly better with bladestorm.

Tacs didn't get better in assault, but they were always better than people gave them credit for, and in the present environment Tactical Marines outclass nearly any commonly fielded basic unit in assault. It's not about the Tacticals, it's about the meta.

and Tacs *now* meaningfully threaten many armies' core units in assault.

That's how I read it. Yes, Tacticals might achieve better than you expect against some targets. Targets like Guardsmen.

Commonly fielded basic units:

Chaos Marines, Space Marines of all stripes : Equal footing at best. Slaughtered if they're CSM, Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads.

Guardsmen, Guardians, Cultists, etc : Everything kills these easily. They're used as fodder, so its rarely a big deal if you kill them, if you even manage to reach them...

Firewarriors : You can't rely on reaching them. Supporting fire rule and their static, long range fire mean your Marines are going to get peppered long before they get there without either a lot of luck or very intelligent play or convenient play.

Tyranid Hordes, Orks, Necrons, Daemons : Best case scenario is the squad gets tied up for the rest of the game. Worst case, and probably expected scenario is you get ripped to pieces (though this bit doesn't apply to Necrons usually)

Grey Knights, Terminators of any kind : You die horribly.

The meta is 'Marines go die in a fire'. AP2/3 is abundant, and the Codex trend gives new ways to kill Marines plentifully.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Huh? AP 2/3 is decreasingly relevant at present. 6th edition TAC lists are largely about massed basic Troops units-- which Tacticals both provide and deal with much better than Bikes do.

I'm sorry, but this made me giggle. If you mass scoring units in this edition and go up against someone who massed killing power in this edition you get smashed. If you do not take AP2 in your lists in ample supply quite frankly you are doing it wrong, because you need it to kill Riptides, MC's and heavy infantry, and now if you face the prospect that you can't you die horribly.

I do take AP2-- but AP2 is for killing monsters/vehicles and forcing Wave Serpents to keep their shields up. Most AP2 weapons are very inefficient against normal troops.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Ironically, Bikes are also more vulnerable to AP 2/3, because the most relevant AP 2/3 weapons wound on 2+ anyway.

Except you get a jink save with bikes. And since you're 2-3 times as fast you can escape or move forward and neutralize said sources of firepower far, far easier.

The most relevant AP2/3 weapons against Troops are the Heldrake's baleflamer and the Riptide's Ion Accelerator, one of which always ignores cover and the other of which almost always does so. While Bikes are slightly more resilient than Tactical Marines against a baleflamer thanks to Toughness 5, they are equally vulnerable to Vector Strikes and their low numbers make their toughness less than optimal.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Bikes are only really defensively efficient against strength 3, which is not very common.

And AP2/3, and the bolter fire you're parading as being anything other than naff.

A BS4 bolter shot fired at a Bike kills (2/3)*(1/3)*(1/3) = 2/27 of the time, while a bolter shot fired at a Tactical Marine kills (2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3) = 1/9 of the time. However, at 14 points for a Tactical Marine but 21 points for a Bike, that same bolter shot kills 21 * (2/27) = 42/27 points of Bikes or 14 * (1/9) = 14/9 points of Tactical Marines. Since 42/27 and 14/9 are the same thing, bolters are equally efficient at killing Tactical Marines and Bikes.

A BS3 pulse rifle shot fired at a Bike kills (1/2)*(1/2)*(1/3) = 1/12 of the time (slightly better than the bolter), while a pulse rifle shot fired at a Tactical Marine kills (1/2)*(2/3)*(1/3) = 1/9 of the time (exactly the same as the bolter). The difference in model costs makes the pulse rifle more efficient against the Bike than the Tactical Marine.

However, Tactical Marines can and should take Rhinos, which of course bolters have no effect whatsoever against and pulse rifles are extremely unreliable against. Therefore, Tactical Marines are more defensively efficient against basic weapons than Bikes are, with the exception of strength 3 ones (where Bikes are extremely efficient). Even in the case where you aren't taking Rhinos, Tactical Marines generally have the same or better efficiency than Bikes.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Losing 10 Tacticals is only a big loss if you don't take enough Tacticals.

A 10 man Tactical Squad in transport is going to come somewhere between 180-200 points, if you take a special weapon, combi-weapon/heavy weapon, which should be considered practically mandatory. At 1850 that's more than a tenth of your army wiped out.

So? It probably took a large portion of firepower to wipe out that squad-- and that's assuming that I couldn't hide a model or two behind Line of Sight blocking terrain to preserve a Kill Point and/or scoring opportunity. In the meantime, my firepower units aren't taking fire themselves, and are contributing it back. With sufficient Tactical Marines, the opponent must make hard choices between shooting at my firepower units or conceding midfield. As labmouse42 pointed out, if the opponent wants to focus fire on a Tactical Squad they can probably kill it-- but in doing so they leave themselves open to other threats, which will inflict serious damage on their own forces.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
5 Marines comes to 70 points. So for every two Tactical Squads where you don't waste points on bolters and delusions of 'durability' you're getting a Tri-Las Predator, Storm Talon, Devastator Squad, SW spam Bike Squad, etc, which might go on to shave half the wounds off a Riptide, blow up a tank, shoot down a flyer, or better.

Sure, but those things are also constrained by slots. Once my 3 HS slots are full of some combination of Predators and TFCs, that choice is decreasingly meaningful; once my 3 FA slots are also full it means practically nothing at all. Since there aren't really efficient firepower options in the Elites slot most of the time, you really have 6 "firepower unit" slots-- more than enough, in my experience!

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I also think you are seriously underestimating the survivability of 10-man Tactical Squads. As for MCs, certainly they are a threat that you should be prepared to deal with-- but Tacticals aren't exactly useless against MCs.

One special weapon, one combi-weapon at best. Even with both being plasmas rapid firing that's 1.185 unsaved wounds if they have the common 5+ invulnerable or cover, 1.778 without. So basically brother, unless you have another ace up your sleeve or 4-5 of those squads all within Rapid Firing range (both extremely unlikely and extremely impractical) you're not going to kill that MC that's now going to rip through that squad like a knife through tracing paper.

I take Grav on line squads, not Plasma-- If the Sergeant and special weapon guy fire their grav-guns at an MC within 18", that's going to be several wounds on a 3+ or 2+ save MC-- so basically every MC that isn't the Harpy or an unarmored Daemon Prince, both of which die to bolters. The obvious reply is "What if they don't move into range?" Well, if their MCs aren't in midfield and my Tactical Marines are... I'm probably winning the game!

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Further, it's not like taking Tactical Marines removes the ability to take tri-las Predators...

It does when the core of your list comes to about 600-800 points and is practically useless against common, deadly and vicious units like MC's, infantry heavier than thou and other units designed to kill you.

"Infantry heavier than thou" basically doesn't exist anymore. Terminators are rarely seen and aren't hard to kill with Grav weapons. Grey Knights and Sternguard are somewhat frightening, but very vulnerable to torrents.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The meta is 'Marines go die in a fire'. AP2/3 is abundant, and the Codex trend gives new ways to kill Marines plentifully.

Suffice it to say that I disagree. 6th edition plays strongly into the strengths of the 3+ save.