Ork forge world units

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**obmas**

I have been reading for a while but finally decided to post. I am building my ork army and recently started looking at the forge world units. it seems like the flak gun would be a good anti air upgrade and some of the other units would be good too. Are they competitive at all? im trying to go for an all mounted evil sunz list.
thank you for any help

**Farseer Faenyin**

Killbursta and Killblasta look amazing and are competitive. But the Flak Trak is simply awesome...so that is an inexpensive and solid first buy.

**obmas**

thanks, what about gun wagons or gun trukks? are the heavy weapons even worth the points in the hands of bs2 orks?

I wish I could get a kill buster or other one, but are super heavy tanks

**obmas**

any other thoughts from anyone on these?

**Mozzamanx**

It depends whether you are talking about Forge World units being put into a standard Ork army, or if you are taking the dedicated Dread Mob as listed in IA8. They are 2 very different armies and access will vary depending on which you pick.

Also, if these are intended for 'normal' games of 40k or if you want to go all the way to Apocalypse.

**Vineheart01**

Grot Tanks

Nuff said.

**Formosa**

Mekboy junka with shock attack gun, 60" ram.....boooooom hur hur hur

**Dakkamite**

Grot Bomms are really, really good against some list, and worthwhile against most others.

**Bonde**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Grot Tanks

Nuff said.

What weapons would you give them? I have been thinking about fielding a squadron, but I have no clue how to equip them. IMO Grotzookas are a bit shot ranged to put on a non-walker vehicle, especially when they have random movement.
The weapons they come with are completely mixed, so you have to convert some to get a somewhat coherent squadron. Something like all Rokkits or all Big Shootas would probably make sense.

**Mozzamanx**

Bonde wrote:

What weapons would you give them? I have been thinking about fielding a squadron, but I have no clue how to equip them. IMO Grotzookas are a bit shot ranged to put on a non-walker vehicle, especially when they have random movement.
The weapons they come with are completely mixed, so you have to convert some to get a somewhat coherent squadron. Something like all Rokkits or all Big Shootas would probably make sense.

Give them all the Grotzookas. Take 5, take a Kommanda, and rain down explosives from a Terminator-costed model. AV10 with a 5+ Invul isn't bad defense considering the numbers they can be taken in, and may Gork have mercy on any infantry unit left in the crosshairs.
It's also very fun to resolve 12 blasts per squadron.

**Vineheart01**

Grotzookas or KMBs, pref Grotzookas cuz theyre highly underrated. People expect a trio of killakans sporting grotzookas to not do much so they ignore them for a couple turns, then suddenly "Take 18 armor saves please" lol.

Grot Tanks are Fast iirc so they have a ~30" threat range (variable movements), while kans only have a 24" threat. And that invul save is awesome. Some would argue its kinda dumb that grot tanks have an invul, but gotta remember its AV10 so infantry can glance it to death. 5+ invul wont help much against 20 saves lol. It just means he HAS to hit it with ROF stuff instead of anti-vehicle stuff.

Let me put it this way. Im against FW because a large chunk of the people that get into it are only interested in the overpowered as feth units. Ignoring those select few, it adds a very good level of play especially for orks (who need it badly). Grot tanks make me want to play FW on their own because theyre so awesome but not broken since theyre still squishy lol.

**obmas**

I just converted two big trakks with flakk guns, they with help me with the vendetta squads I get hit with.
I personally want a all mounted army so forge world units really appeal to me. I guess gun wagons are kinda useless with trakks available with bigger guns.

**Kharrak**

Hooo, not posted on Dakka in ages!

Anyway, Grot Tanks ARE great, and I have a fantastic experience fielding them with KMB's in 5th, but now that Get's Hot affects vehicles, it's a harder choice to justify. Still, they pack a huge punch, and help with any irritating 2+ save units. Rokkits are the second best, if you're happy with getting ap3 instead of ap2. Saves you 5pts per gun as well, which is nothing to snuff about.

Grotzookas are always fantastic, and are the more ant-infantry / anti-light vehicle option compared to the elite killer that is mass KMB's. A squad of 4, as is what you get when you buy, is putting out 8 str6 small blasts

Just remember, only two hull points each.

Past that, I've had a LOT of fun, and a fair bit of success fielding a squadron of 3 Big Trakks with Supa Kannons. A relatively hardy ork vehicle with 12 front armour, comes stock standard with two Big Shootas.

Supa Kannons are 60" range, str9, ap3, large blast and ordnance, filling a very large gap in the Ork arsenal.

If memory serves, 50pts per Big Trakk, another 10pts for 'Ard Case, and 70pts for a Supa Kannon - so 130pts per, and 390pts for a full squadron. It's expensive, but it's often proven worth it, allowing me to kill, or at least harass Landraiders from a distance.

Unfortunately, something of an expensive purchase, as one has to buy three Big Trakks AND three Supa Kannons.

A Lifta Wagon is a great fun unit, not a bad once off purchase - though I don't have enough experience with it to really speak of how it works competitively.

**Dakkamite**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Grotzookas or KMBs, pref Grotzookas cuz theyre highly underrated. People expect a trio of killakans sporting grotzookas to not do much so they ignore them for a couple turns, then suddenly "Take 18 armor saves please" lol.

Grot Tanks are Fast iirc so they have a ~30" threat range (variable movements), while kans only have a 24" threat. And that invul save is awesome. Some would argue its kinda dumb that grot tanks have an invul, but gotta remember its AV10 so infantry can glance it to death. 5+ invul wont help much against 20 saves lol. It just means he HAS to hit it with ROF stuff instead of anti-vehicle stuff.

Let me put it this way. Im against FW because a large chunk of the people that get into it are only interested in the overpowered as feth units. Ignoring those select few, it adds a very good level of play especially for orks (who need it badly). Grot tanks make me want to play FW on their own because theyre so awesome but not broken since theyre still squishy lol.

Grot tanks have random movement of 2d6. Or possibly 3d6. They're honestly not very fast at all.

Hooo, not posted on Dakka in ages!

Supa Kannon Traks are fantastic, but I'd run them solo and certainly not for busting LR - very inefficient way to use all that crazy firepower. But thats to be expected... Orks typically have no experience using it since we don't get any of the damn stuff.

The Lifta wagon has been NERFED so bad it hurts to read the new stats. R.I.P you glorious bastard

**Kharrak**

Dakkamite wrote:

Supa Kannon Traks are fantastic, but I'd run them solo and certainly not for busting LR - very inefficient way to use all that crazy firepower. But thats to be expected... Orks typically have no experience using it since we don't get any of the damn stuff.

The Lifta wagon has been NERFED so bad it hurts to read the new stats. R.I.P you glorious bastard

Well, I got them for long range vehicle harassment, and often it generally turns out that if there's a landraider, there's little else in terms of vehicles on the table

With Ordnance, I was averaging two pens against armour 14 per volley, so they were doing a really great job.

I generally play a super shooty ork list, so I have my other two heavy support slots for Big Gun Kannons (in amongst tons of Lootas and SAG Meks) - leaving only one spot for Big Trakks, thus why I squadron them up to 3, rather than singular. It was an interesting choice actually; between a single Battlewagon with a supa kannon that's hardy, or a squadron of three Big Trakks with Supa Kannons each, providing a much larger quantity of fire. The fact that one only needs one pen to kill a Battlewagon, and at least three to wipe all the Trakks was also a consideration.

As for the Lifta rules, haven't played with the new changes, so can't comment - but I had great fun with proxying them prior to the change.

Oh, also, in regards to the Grot Tanks: They move 2d6, but can always fire at full bs. They can opt to move 3d6 and forfeit firing. If a bouble 1 is rolled, one suffers an automatic pen (or was it a glance?). They aren't fast, at least not reliably so, but they are moving an average of 7" per turn.

**Jidmah**

It basically has to hit at orkish BS 2, barely moves the target at all and you can't drop stuff on top of something else anymore. For your 225 points you now get something that's inferior to a kannon. The only "fun" gimmick left is that it might turn itself into a crater when shooting,

**Eyjio**

Yeah, the lifta wagon is now more a shuffle wagon, it barely does anything even when it hits. I mean, it was powerful before but it was also basically the only good anti-tank Orks got so the nerf is really annoying.

Quick question for everyone: which rules for Grot tanks are the ones to use? They used to be in IA:Apoc 2nd ed, but now 3rd ed is out (and no longer contains them) and the old one is no longer in print. Do we go back to IA8 or what?

**Bonde**

Eyjio wrote:
Yeah, the lifta wagon is now more a shuffle wagon, it barely does anything even when it hits. I mean, it was powerful before but it was also basically the only good anti-tank Orks got so the nerf is really annoying.

Quick question for everyone: which rules for Grot tanks are the ones to use? They used to be in IA:Apoc 2nd ed, but now 3rd ed is out (and no longer contains them) and the old one is no longer in print. Do we go back to IA8 or what?

Imperial Armour Apocalypse: 2 is not a replacement for Imperial Armour: Apocalypse second edition. As far as I can see, you can still get second edition, it's just called Imperial Armour: Apocalypse, but it is the new one.
The most recent rules should always be used, no matter if they are in print or not.

I have a rules question as well. The (kustom) Meka Dread doesn't really work rules wise (even in IA 2nd edition), since it requires a regular Mega Dread to be fielded in the same army, but the Mega Dread isn't approved for regular use in 40K yet, since it is only in IA vol. 8 and therefore doesn't have any updated rules.

I'll probably just wait untill Orks get a new codex, then FW will make a second edition of IA vol. 8, at some point after that.

**Kharrak**

Regarding the Meka/Mega dread issue, I did contact FW about it a while ago. Essentially, any unit that does not have Apoc only rules (structure points, gargantuan cretures, etc) is good to be considered 40k approved - so the Megadread qualifies. Furthermore, the Megadread can be taken in Heavy Support in Codex Orks.

From FW themselves, but yeah - since it's not in any rulebook I'd expect quite a few to spit some flames.

As for Grot Tanks... outside of the addition of hull points, I don't believe their rules changed at all?

**Bonde**

Kharrak wrote:
Regarding the Meka/Mega dread issue, I did contact FW about it a while ago. Essentially, any unit that does not have Apoc only rules (structure points, gargantuan cretures, etc) is good to be considered 40k approved - so the Megadread qualifies. Furthermore, the Megadread can be taken in Heavy Support in Codex Orks.

From FW themselves, but yeah - since it's not in any rulebook I'd expect quite a few to spit some flames.

As for Grot Tanks... outside of the addition of hull points, I don't believe their rules changed at all?

Do you still have the original message from FW? I know they are quite large about it, but people you play against like to have stuff like that written down.

Yeah, Orks have been a bit neglected update wise. A lot of their vehicles haven't been adopted for 6th edition yet, since they don't have hullpoints, so I'm hoping for IA vol 8 shortl after we get an Ork codex (just like Tau got an update shortly after).

**Eyjio**

Bonde wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
Yeah, the lifta wagon is now more a shuffle wagon, it barely does anything even when it hits. I mean, it was powerful before but it was also basically the only good anti-tank Orks got so the nerf is really annoying.

Quick question for everyone: which rules for Grot tanks are the ones to use? They used to be in IA:Apoc 2nd ed, but now 3rd ed is out (and no longer contains them) and the old one is no longer in print. Do we go back to IA8 or what?

Imperial Armour Apocalypse: 2 is not a replacement for Imperial Armour: Apocalypse second edition. As far as I can see, you can still get second edition, it's just called Imperial Armour: Apocalypse, but it is the new one.
The most recent rules should always be used, no matter if they are in print or not.

I have a rules question as well. The (kustom) Meka Dread doesn't really work rules wise (even in IA 2nd edition), since it requires a regular Mega Dread to be fielded in the same army, but the Mega Dread isn't approved for regular use in 40K yet, since it is only in IA vol. 8 and therefore doesn't have any updated rules.

I'll probably just wait untill Orks get a new codex, then FW will make a second edition of IA vol. 8, at some point after that.

It's not IA:Apoc 2 though, it's IA:Apoc, 3rd edition. It supersedes the previous book. There is no way to get 2nd ed for this exact reason; it's like if a unit was excluded from a codex from a previous one - you don't just defer back to the previous edition as the book has been completely redone. The mega dread hasn't even got that issue any more as it was redone in IA:Apoc 3e. That's my point - the most recent legal rules are from IA8, which seems ridiculous.

**Bonde**

Oh, I didn't know that there had been two previous versions of IA: Apoc 1, I'm pretty sure the newest one was called 2nd edition.

**Kharrak**

Bonde wrote:

Do you still have the original message from FW? I know they are quite large about it, but people you play against like to have stuff like that written down.

Yeah, Orks have been a bit neglected update wise. A lot of their vehicles haven't been adopted for 6th edition yet, since they don't have hullpoints, so I'm hoping for IA vol 8 shortl after we get an Ork codex (just like Tau got an update shortly after).

All vehicles without hull points were updated in a document on the FW site. Grot Tanks have 2, etc etc

As for the mail: Nope, was a while ago. Just email them and ask, it's as simple as that! They should get back to you within a day or two - I've never had to wait long for replies myself.

**Bonde**

Kharrak wrote:
Bonde wrote:

Do you still have the original message from FW? I know they are quite large about it, but people you play against like to have stuff like that written down.

Yeah, Orks have been a bit neglected update wise. A lot of their vehicles haven't been adopted for 6th edition yet, since they don't have hullpoints, so I'm hoping for IA vol 8 shortl after we get an Ork codex (just like Tau got an update shortly after).

All vehicles without hull points were updated in a document on the FW site. Grot Tanks have 2, etc etc

As for the mail: Nope, was a while ago. Just email them and ask, it's as simple as that! They should get back to you within a day or two - I've never had to wait long for replies myself.

Ah, I completely forgot about that update. Thanks for the advice on writing FW themselves. I would love to own a Mega Dread, as the model is extremely good looking, and also have decent rules. The mega dreads are in heavy suppot, but the grot tanks are in elite. FOC slot has a lot to say, because my Fast Attack is maxed out, since I'm playing a KoS army.

**Jidmah**

Kharrak wrote:
Regarding the Meka/Mega dread issue, I did contact FW about it a while ago. Essentially, any unit that does not have Apoc only rules (structure points, gargantuan cretures, etc) is good to be considered 40k approved - so the Megadread qualifies. Furthermore, the Megadread can be taken in Heavy Support in Codex Orks.

From FW themselves, but yeah - since it's not in any rulebook I'd expect quite a few to spit some flames.

As for Grot Tanks... outside of the addition of hull points, I don't believe their rules changed at all?

Actually, the most recent FW book. Imperial Armour: Apocalypse from 2013 clarifies this:

"A Mega-Dread is a Heavy Support choice for a Codex: Orks army or an Ork Dread Mob army (see Imperial Armour 8: Raid on Kastorel-Novem)." pg. 107

Just to clear up the mess they created with all their books, from oldest to most recent:

Imperial Armour 8: Raid on Kastorel-Novem
Release of most 40k relevant FW ork models
Supa-Skorchas no longer allow to "throw" the template 12"

Imperial Armour: Apocalypse Second Edition
Big Squiggoth
- armor increased to 4+
- big guns a lot more expensive
- heavy support for codex orks
Warkopta (no changes)
Fighta (big shootas got AA mounts)
Meka-dread (no changes)
Lifta Wagon (fist nerf)
Grot Tanks (no changes)
Grot Mega-tank (new, fast attack for codex orks/dread mob)
Grot Bomm Launcha (got a shoota and trakks)
introduction of 40k stamps

Imperial Armour: Apocalypse (2013)
Mega dread
- FoC for codex orks given
- Rippa Klaws reroll penetration instead of +1 to vehicle damage, no more wrecker stratagem
- may trade rippa klaws for kill saws (reroll wounds)
- can no longer have a third big shoota
- having both arms as killkannons gives you two shots instead of twin-linking one
Meka-dread
- KFF specified to give cover to both friend and enemy
- fixing klaws now give the Rage USR (no functional change)
Lifta Wagon (nerfed "TO THE GROUND")
Big Squiggoth
- armor further increased to 3+
- gained 2W, "lost" 1A and 2LD (see below)
- gained D3+1 Hammer of Wrath attacks
- gains d6 attacks when outnumbered and wounded
- fearless while at least five orks are nearby or transported. Amusingly does not count orks from a dread mob army.
- transport capacity increased by 5
- added option for Snakebite Combat Drugs (random table with melee buffs)
Grot Mega-tank (no changes)

So basically Squiggoths and Megadreads are the tits now. To bad they compete for the same slots.

**obmas**

so can one use units from the previous book? like the grot tanks? I see they weren't listed in the newest book is why I ask.

**Kharrak**

Jidmah wrote:
Gubbins

Okay, looks like I've spotted a problem - I seem to recall my friend, being one who buys ALL the codices, all the suppliments, and all the FW books, passed on the FW Apoc 2013 book, which would explain why I'm ignorant on a lot of matters concerning it.

Will see if I can get my grubby hands on it

**Madcat87**

Kharrak wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Gubbins

Okay, looks like I've spotted a problem - I seem to recall my friend, being one who buys ALL the codices, all the suppliments, and all the FW books, passed on the FW Apoc 2013 book, which would explain why I'm ignorant on a lot of matters concerning it.

Will see if I can get my grubby hands on it

Likwise I missed that aswell and need to catch up on some stuff as the Ork Dread momb is one of those things on my to-do list.

Mega dread with dual kil kannons.

YES PLEASE!

**Bonde**

Jidmah wrote:
Kharrak wrote:
Regarding the Meka/Mega dread issue, I did contact FW about it a while ago. Essentially, any unit that does not have Apoc only rules (structure points, gargantuan cretures, etc) is good to be considered 40k approved - so the Megadread qualifies. Furthermore, the Megadread can be taken in Heavy Support in Codex Orks.

From FW themselves, but yeah - since it's not in any rulebook I'd expect quite a few to spit some flames.

As for Grot Tanks... outside of the addition of hull points, I don't believe their rules changed at all?

Actually, the most recent FW book. Imperial Armour: Apocalypse from 2013 clarifies this:

"A Mega-Dread is a Heavy Support choice for a Codex: Orks army or an Ork Dread Mob army (see Imperial Armour 8: Raid on Kastorel-Novem)." pg. 107

Just to clear up the mess they created with all their books, from oldest to most recent:

Imperial Armour 8: Raid on Kastorel-Novem
Release of most 40k relevant FW ork models
Supa-Skorchas no longer allow to "throw" the template 12"

Imperial Armour: Apocalypse Second Edition
Big Squiggoth
- armor increased to 4+
- big guns a lot more expensive
- heavy support for codex orks
Warkopta (no changes)
Fighta (big shootas got AA mounts)
Meka-dread (no changes)
Lifta Wagon (fist nerf)
Grot Tanks (no changes)
Grot Mega-tank (new, fast attack for codex orks/dread mob)
Grot Bomm Launcha (got a shoota and trakks)
introduction of 40k stamps

Imperial Armour: Apocalypse (2013)
Mega dread
- FoC for codex orks given
- Rippa Klaws reroll penetration instead of +1 to vehicle damage, no more wrecker stratagem
- may trade rippa klaws for kill saws (reroll wounds)
- can no longer have a third big shoota
- having both arms as killkannons gives you two shots instead of twin-linking one
Meka-dread
- KFF specified to give cover to both friend and enemy
- fixing klaws now give the Rage USR (no functional change)
Lifta Wagon (nerfed "TO THE GROUND")
Big Squiggoth
- armor further increased to 3+
- gained 2W, "lost" 1A and 2LD (see below)
- gained D3+1 Hammer of Wrath attacks
- gains d6 attacks when outnumbered and wounded
- fearless while at least five orks are nearby or transported. Amusingly does not count orks from a dread mob army.
- transport capacity increased by 5
- added option for Snakebite Combat Drugs (random table with melee buffs)
Grot Mega-tank (no changes)

So basically Squiggoths and Megadreads are the tits now. To bad they compete for the same slots.

Thanks man, I apparently completely missed the release of that book, which means that the Mega Dread actually does have updated rules. I am very happy to hear that!

**Jidmah**

obmas wrote:
so can one use units from the previous book? like the grot tanks? I see they weren't listed in the newest book is why I ask.

You can use the most recent rules for any of those vehicle. Considering how hard it is to have a forgeworld book (or even a 200 page strong print-out) available most people don't have a problem with you using older rules. Forgeworld usually just reprints rules for units they update, their newest models or units that fit the theme of the book.

As for missing the Apoc 2013:
I did so too, until someone here on dakka basically decked me in the face with the new stompa rules