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As I was reading through tactics one day, I came across a thread upon the creation of a competitive Footdar list, and I couldn't help but start thinking of a way in which that also might be possible with Necrons. I don't know about other Necron players, perhaps it is just me, but I can't help but be a little bored with the constant and boxed thinking of Wraithwing/Scythewing being the only reasonably competitive list that we have. Outside of a few outlier units (our elites with exception of Deathmarks, and perhaps Destroyers/Tomb Blades) I can't help but feel we have a decently, internally, balanced codex. It's not the greatest of course, especially in comparison to say the Space Marine Dex, but I would say it is above average. Or, at least to the point where I believe there exists a strong non-wraith/scythe centered list (or lists) that can still preform reasonably well on the table top. I'm not asking or looking for it to be the creme de la creme for example, but one that will still manage to scratch off some wins against other competitive armies.. This is the hope anyway. This is thus my appeal to the aid of any Necron (and non-Necron) players to help encourage a think tank in which we can get this to work. I would like to state that other ideas for competitive builds are encouraged, such as AV13 spam or some hybrid style.

I can already state that the two most immediate problems that Footcron army will have is Anti-MC and assault. Where and what sources do solutions to these problems come from? For assault do we choose Wraiths or Scarabs? Perhaps we even do the unthinkable and include Rod Praetorians as harassment units? Anti-MC, I feel our options are even more limited (especially concerning Riptides. How do we handle such beasts?). 5 Lanceteks in a Ghost Ark/on foot? Heavy Destroyers? Or do we simply continue to rely on the strength of Wraiths to not only tarpit, but act as bullet soaks to keep the blob(s) alive?

I would also like to say that this is not limited to a pure Cron army. Although the intention would be to avoid such a situation, I am beginning to see and accept that allies are almost a necessity to get cheap and/or effective units that our codex otherwise lacks. For example. perhaps allies can get us even cheaper troops than we already have (I'm thinking Grey Knight henchmen, 12 points for a scoring troop. Really?), or the at-range AP2 we cannot cheaply afford (Prescienced Plasma Cannon Servitors come to mind) Or fast CC beasts we don't have ourselves (such as Demon Princes or AoBF Juggerlords) that can be used both aggressively and defensively.

Well Dakka? What do you think?

So, if we want to do mass foot, we need to decide whether that means Warriors, Immortals, or both. You're right in that foot-crons, and necrons in general, have problems dealing with MC and Assault. Ld 10 isn't good when you can't win combat with your troops. A single block of Immortals with Obyron or a Veiltek is nice to get in close with something that doesn't like them, and keep away from things that Immortals don't like. The rest probably want to be warriors, as it's more wounds per point than Immortals. They also have the advantage in that they can play into an AV13 list, as you're going to want to bring Ghost Arks to support them. You're also bringing Annihilation Barges most likely because they're awesome, unless you want to have a Scarab Farm instead. Scarabs can serve as screening units for your warriors if need be -- as well as valuable anti-vehicle. If they get lucky, they might strip the armor off of a Riptide or something.

For anti-MC usage, Death and Despair squads are a potential option -- you're only going to be Sternguard against one MC though. Wraiths are nice with S6, Rending, and that 3++, but the thing is, if we take Wraiths, we might as well take Destroyer Lords cause they make Wraiths amazing, and if we take DLords and Wraiths, we're low on troops, so we're right back to Wraith+Scythe-wing. A C'tan could probably win against a lot of enemy MCs in a fight, but it's so slow that it'll never catch up to a Riptide or a Wraithknight, and it's easily ground down from range. Again back to ranged combat against MCs, maybe either Heavy Destroyers or Harbingers of Destruction. They're both only 36" range, but they'll reliably score wounds on MCs and seriously threaten them if you have enough of them. Unfortunately Heavy Destroyers are really expensive, even with the Preferred Enemy goodness. Harbingers of Destruction are only 5 points more than half the cost of Heavy Destroyers, and you also get the opportunity for Defensive Grenades and Night-fight.

Another potential is the Triarch Stalker. With its two-shot Multimelta, you're likely to do a wound, and then you TL everything else that shoots at the MC, or whatever you want to shoot at. They also add to the AV13 skew. You're crap in combat, but the Stalker is a ranged walker, not a melee walker, which is actually what you want. You might consider switching to the HGC for more range, but you're getting expensive there, and c'mon, it's a two-shot multi-melta!

If you have access to Forgeworld, a Tomb Stalker might also work. It's a bit low on wounds, but it can get into an opponent's lines with Outflank and Acute Senses. You could do a hilarious Necron Monster Mash with Stalkers and a Scarab Farm, as Stalkers are Elites. Acanthrites are not good in combat against an MC (T5 3W does not like Smash) but they're great against most anything else. A Tesseract Ark would add to high AV skew, and also benefit from Twin-linking its Solar Fire blasts from the Targeting Relay on the Triarch Stalker. The Seismic lash also helps against anything that doesn't ignore difficult terrain, but its firepower seems a bit lackluster.

As for Allies, Prescience'd Plasma Cannon Servitors are nice, but when I ran them I always failed my Gets Hot rolls. Coteaz does bring a lot of benefits in the Seize protection and cheap scoring units though. If you add him with some Chimeras, you're adding a lot more to your AV skew. Allying in Orks also gets you shoota boyz to screen with, although they'll die horribly to both Tau and Eldar. I actually want to see how people build this list without allies though, as Necrons don't get as much benefit out of them as say, Guard, Tau, or Eldar do.

Not sure how to put these things together into a coherent list. Anyone else got list ideas?

An overlord with scyth on CCB and mindshackle scarabs supported by a blob of scarabs and wraiths makes a good assault force. The rest of your army can be spent on warriors and immortals. I would support them with Ghost Arks and lords with res orbs and you have a lot of staying power and shooty shooty, with a strong assault core to take on armour, power units and generally cause chaos in the backfield.

I was able to take out a riptide with scarabs and an overlord on CCB in two turns of CC. I don't know what the odds where on that, or if I just had hot dice and my opponent did not, so I can't say that statistically that's a good solutions or not, but it worked the one time I had to face a riptide and get rid of it.

Thariinye wrote:So, if we want to do mass foot, we need to decide whether that means Warriors, Immortals, or both. You're right in that foot-crons, and necrons in general, have problems dealing with MC and Assault. Ld 10 isn't good when you can't win combat with your troops. A single block of Immortals with Obyron or a Veiltek is nice to get in close with something that doesn't like them, and keep away from things that Immortals don't like. The rest probably want to be warriors, as it's more wounds per point than Immortals. They also have the advantage in that they can play into an AV13 list, as you're going to want to bring Ghost Arks to support them. You're also bringing Annihilation Barges most likely because they're awesome, unless you want to have a Scarab Farm instead. Scarabs can serve as screening units for your warriors if need be -- as well as valuable anti-vehicle. If they get lucky, they might strip the armor off of a Riptide or something.

I think that you bring up some valuable points on mobility. Necrons without Scythe support are very, very slow, and as a result suffer from the ability to to claim/deny/contest objectives, especially versus faster armies, like Eldar. This leads me to the question of how many bricks should we bring? How many warriors is too many, and at what point does their effectiveness fall off? Whenever I make lists, I can't help but see how absurdly expensive multiple blobs get, especially if we throw in Ghost Ark support (a full blob and Ghost is over 350 points!), and wonder to myself it is necessary to bring more than one? Would the blob not be better off being treated as a cheaper shooty deathstar? In this way we create the rest of the list to support it. Now this is most definitely not a deathstar that will kill and maim everything it shoots at or gets into combat with, I think this blob preforms a much different roll and that is board control.

After seeing some of Jy2's comments in the Draigowing thread, I can't help but wonder if a Necron Warrior Blob should also be used to control the middle of the field as opposed to simply getting into rapid fire range and preying they smoke whatever they're shooting at next turn. I know from playing with them before, that an 20 man blob of warriors with res orbs is extremely difficult to put down at range. The fire it can absorb is absurd. So perhaps it is possible that we work toward making the blob more of a middle field controller to deny center objectives instead of seeking to claim them. In this way, instead we focus on putting more points else where into our lists. Perhaps into smaller 5-8 Warrior squads in Ghost Arks to keep the blob afloat as well as offer additional supporting firepower. Additionally, it could also allow for the inclusion of 1-2 Scythes for late game claiming plus some additional high strength firepower it may otherwise lack. Alternatively, since you brought up the veil, we could use Obyron with a squad of Tesla Immortals to contest as well (and allowing him to charge the following turn as well with their help if necessary). Alternatively a cheaper option is a single veil which is cheaper than a Scythe although with less accurate placement/only one allowed per Overlord. I think ultimately, it will depend on whether or not on the structure of the list. A single veil may be all we need to contest an objective to win the game, plus if used in tandem with Gauss Blaster Immortals, works much better with late game objective controlling (as Tau has shown, str 5 rapid fire is not a fun thing to be on the receiving end of).

This also leads me to what Overlord should we use to support the Blob? A fully decked out 205 point one (My personal favorite-Res Orb, MSS, SW, WS, PS), or do we choose Zhandrekh who will give the army as a whole more flexibility? Or, if allowed, perhaps we choose the HQ from the Imperial Armor 12 for a fearless blob (which I think would be extremely invaluable)? Or, do we choose an inbetween? Perhaps a Destroyer Lord to give some combat prowess (someone who can also detach and engage scary units on our terms as opposed to theirs due to his speed), on top of improving the shooting power of the blob with preferred enemy?

Thariinye wrote: For anti-MC usage, Death and Despair squads are a potential option -- you're only going to be Sternguard against one MC though. Wraiths are nice with S6, Rending, and that 3++, but the thing is, if we take Wraiths, we might as well take Destroyer Lords cause they make Wraiths amazing, and if we take DLords and Wraiths, we're low on troops, so we're right back to Wraith+Scythe-wing. A C'tan could probably win against a lot of enemy MCs in a fight, but it's so slow that it'll never catch up to a Riptide or a Wraithknight, and it's easily ground down from range. Again back to ranged combat against MCs, maybe either Heavy Destroyers or Harbingers of Destruction. They're both only 36" range, but they'll reliably score wounds on MCs and seriously threaten them if you have enough of them. Unfortunately Heavy Destroyers are really expensive, even with the Preferred Enemy goodness. Harbingers of Destruction are only 5 points more than half the cost of Heavy Destroyers, and you also get the opportunity for Defensive Grenades and Night-fight.

I think Deathmarks may be are go to guys due to cost effectiveness and the shenanagans they can do with a despairtek. The only problem is that if we use the Veil for troop mobility, then we can't use it for their transportation, which forced the buying of a scythe in order to get them where they need to be. Which also means that it takes away from a turn 1 kill against something we would desperately need to take out, such as a Reaperstar or even Broadsides (if we can avoid/survive the interceptor) or maybe even screamerstar before it has a chance to cast psychic powers. Although I know with scatter, it does not always work out as intended. We would need to weigh the value of this between each other. I am personally of the fan of keeping them cheap. Strap on a veil and let them have at turn 1.

I have used Heavy Destroyers before, and think that you should not take anymore than a single squad. They are too expensive to field in multiples, but are probably one of the most effective glass cannon MC hunters. Rerolling 1s to wound practically guarantees 2-3 wounds on anything but a WraithKnight or iron-armed Tyranid. The one game I choose to use them, due to other threats, they managed to take down a Wraithknight and a Riptide + half the wounds off another one over the course of a game. It worked amazingly well due to preferred enemy, especially versus the Riptides. Problem is vulnerability and cost. They are murdered by heldrakes (although RP helps with this) and removed cover. The same Riptide they're hunting may kill them first with marker light support. An idea is to give them a D. Lord who can not only be used as a tank/RP counter, but also a backfield protector. We can use him to protect the back field if necessary. I have considered this, but not yet used.

Which leads us to Crypteks. I like the idea, and they do have a bonus of using a lord to tank wounds/hold an orb, but it also gets costly. Additionally, we would be limited to 4 if we took a veiltek.

Thariinye wrote: Another potential is the Triarch Stalker. With its two-shot Multimelta, you're likely to do a wound, and then you TL everything else that shoots at the MC, or whatever you want to shoot at. They also add to the AV13 skew. You're crap in combat, but the Stalker is a ranged walker, not a melee walker, which is actually what you want. You might consider switching to the HGC for more range, but you're getting expensive there, and c'mon, it's a two-shot multi-melta!

Stalkers I think could be the key to making an effective list, but to do so may require a bit of thinking that may otherwise be found absurd. Dropping Barges in order to maximize their TL abilities. We would replace them with other sources such as lanceteks or Immortals with Tesla to improve anti-infantry fire and more accurate MC. One other tactic I saw as well, was to use a squad of 2-3 Despairteks and using the stalker, TL their Flamers. Even though they may be wounding on say 5s, rerolling massively improves the effectiveness of this (if SoB Seraphim are of any indication on rerollable flamers)

Thariinye wrote: If you have access to Forgeworld, a Tomb Stalker might also work. It's a bit low on wounds, but it can get into an opponent's lines with Outflank and Acute Senses. You could do a hilarious Necron Monster Mash with Stalkers and a Scarab Farm, as Stalkers are Elites. Acanthrites are not good in combat against an MC (T5 3W does not like Smash) but they're great against most anything else. A Tesseract Ark would add to high AV skew, and also benefit from Twin-linking its Solar Fire blasts from the Targeting Relay on the Triarch Stalker. The Seismic lash also helps against anything that doesn't ignore difficult terrain, but its firepower seems a bit lackluster.

I like the Tesseract Ark idea. I think being forced to drop a barge for it is well worth it for the additional fire support. Monster mash would be entertaining, but sadly, they seem to like to avoid giving ours any kind of invulns or fast movement to compensate for this. I think if the Tomb Stalker was a FMC, it would be a really good choice, especially since its in the elite slot. But my experience is limited with FW.

Thariinye wrote: As for Allies, Prescience'd Plasma Cannon Servitors are nice, but when I ran them I always failed my Gets Hot rolls. Coteaz does bring a lot of benefits in the Seize protection and cheap scoring units though. If you add him with some Chimeras, you're adding a lot more to your AV skew. Allying in Orks also gets you shoota boyz to screen with, although they'll die horribly to both Tau and Eldar. I actually want to see how people build this list without allies though, as Necrons don't get as much benefit out of them as say, Guard, Tau, or Eldar do.

To be honest, I think GK and Tau are our best allied options for a shooty/blob list. Firewarriors are cheaper than Immortals with the same str 5 guns, plus with an ethereal or Cadre can put down a large number of shots, additionally we could always use an intercepting/AP 2 RIptide to help with alpha strikes or other MCs. (Although I can't help feel that the HBC option would help more, especially if we are forced to skimp out on AA). Pathfinders would also much improve the blob's effectiveness versus Ork, Tyranid, or IG swarms. GK on the other hand, as you said, bring cheap scoring, and armor saturation that this kind of list could greatly benefit from. Plus, how do you fight an MC? Bring a bigger or strong MC. Dreadknights ftw?

Not sure how to put these things together into a coherent list. Anyone else got list ideas?

disdamn wrote:An overlord with scyth on CCB and mindshackle scarabs supported by a blob of scarabs and wraiths makes a good assault force. The rest of your army can be spent on warriors and immortals. I would support them with Ghost Arks and lords with res orbs and you have a lot of staying power and shooty shooty, with a strong assault core to take on armour, power units and generally cause chaos in the backfield.

I was able to take out a riptide with scarabs and an overlord on CCB in two turns of CC. I don't know what the odds where on that, or if I just had hot dice and my opponent did not, so I can't say that statistically that's a good solutions or not, but it worked the one time I had to face a riptide and get rid of it.

CCBs can work IMO, but I feel they can get exposed way too easily due to being unable to be locked in combat (really think they should've been treated like a walker, or had an ability to consolidate after assault even if it didn't win combat), but it can work. I've always wanted to see if I can make those work, but out of the 3 Barge models I have, I always feel ABs are a better buy.

I definitely think Scarabs are our best buy in regards to a flexible assault unit. Anti-tank, Infantry, and tarpits for 60+ points cheaper than a Wraith squad (especially w/o D. Lord support) is really good. For a footcrons, I think these are our go-to units. Plus, it's hilarious if they manage to sweep or strip the armor save off a Riptide as you stated.

I've had good success with a warrior blob, OL res orb, and GA combo. It's been near impossible to move from my home objective, BUT that's only because I've been lucky enough to distract my opponents with other more mobile threats like wraiths, scarabs, and Deathmarks. I do enjoy playing warrior blobs and moving them down the middle but am not certain many thing can help them when assaulted. You'd definitely need to stick in regular lords with MSS and stormteks. That could be very interesting when the inevitable assault comes: multiple MSS tests and the stormteks all doing there things may be more effective than most interweb critics give credit for.

Great thoughts KelCJ!

Would the blob not be better off being treated as a cheaper shooty deathstar? In this way we create the rest of the list to support it. Now this is most definitely not a deathstar that will kill and maim everything it shoots at or gets into combat with, I think this blob preforms a much different roll and that is board control.

Yeah, I noticed the high cost of full Warriors + GA when I was list-dojo-ing as well. It's cost-prohibitive to take more than one. We basically need to think of it as a Guard blob variant. It's more resilient than all but the most buffed of blobs, as Warriors have a better save, RP + Res Orb, and GA reanimation, but it has less shooting, CC power, and board size.

Let's do some quick mathhammer on resilience vs. Broadsides and Wave Serpents.
4 Wave Serpents Firing: ~8 shots each, all wounding on 2s, no shuriken shots for ease of calculation. All TL BS4, so about 90% hit, that's 29 hits, about 24 wounds. Warriors fail 12 saves, and 6 get back up from RP with Res Orb. Total casualties: 6 of 20, with about 2-3 brought back if the GAs are still alive and supporting. The GAs are critical here, as the blob still only lasts about 2-3 turns before it fails without GA reanimation.
3 Broadsides with Markerlight Support: 12 HYMP shots and 12 SMS shots, at BS5, TL. Basically, everything hits. 10 HYMP kills and 8 HYMP wounds, with 4 kills. RP brings back 7 hopefully, for a total of about 7. AP4 is nasty, but we still have a bit of resilience against a single team.

So yeah, our survivability is okay for 350 points or so of Warriors + GAs.

Perhaps into smaller 5-8 Warrior squads in Ghost Arks to keep the blob afloat as well as offer additional supporting firepower. Additionally, it could also allow for the inclusion of 1-2 Scythes for late game claiming plus some additional high strength firepower it may otherwise lack. Alternatively, since you brought up the veil, we could use Obyron with a squad of Tesla Immortals to contest as well (and allowing him to charge the following turn as well with their help if necessary).

With the Max blob, we should have a bunch of minimum squads as well, in as many Night Scythes as possible and still maintaining a good foot presence. It's still great to have these flyers in the air.

As for HQ choices, the FW Fearless guy is nice, but Fearless doesn't help against Terrify/Horrify. Then again, there's nothing in Necrons that helps in this area, so we just have to stomach it. Zahndrekh is probably who I'd recommend personally. Giving the blob or a Triarch Stalker Tank Hunters is really nice. The other granted abilities are nice but very situational. It's also nice to be able to take away night vision from say, a Tau unit, or Hit and Run from a Deathstar, or Tank Hunters from something buffed by the Buff Commander.

A Dlord is nice, but it really takes us in the direction of Wraiths, which just becomes the standard necron netlist again.

The only problem is that if we use the Veil for troop mobility, then we can't use it for their transportation, which forced the buying of a scythe in order to get them where they need to be. Which also means that it takes away from a turn 1 kill against something we would desperately need to take out, such as a Reaperstar or even Broadsides (if we can avoid/survive the interceptor

I guess this supports us taking both Zahndrekh and Obryon then. Then we have two teleportation measures, and one of them can help out the central blob if needed. Obyron can go with Immortals, and the Veiltek can do Death and Despair. However, even with the 24" teleport, the range on the D&D squad isn't that good. I still like the idea of using Nightscythes with them.

Stalkers I think could be the key to making an effective list...

I like the Tesseract Ark idea.

We are going to have to drop Annihilation Barges like you say if we have all of these things probably, unless we really want to go heavy armor instead of a heavy foot presence.

------

Unfortunately we can't put all of these things into a list at the same time and keep under the points limit. We have to figure out what's truly necessary to pull off a list without lots of Wraiths and Night Scythes.

Here's some potential lists:

1845pts total
Zahndrekh
Obyron
Veiltek

10 Deathmarks
2 x Triarch Stalkers

10 Tesla Immortals
20 Warriors w/ GA
5 Warriors w/ GA

9 Scarabs
Annihilation Barge

Another list:
1843pts total
Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Warscythe
Obyron
Veiltek
2 x Lance-teks

10 Deathmarks
2 x Triarch Stalker

10 Tesla Immortals
8 Warriors in GA
8 Warriors in GA

Annihilation Barge
Tesseract Ark

This list is much more focused on the AV13 (and 14) wall, although it still has the teleportation elements in it. The lance-teks go into the GAs with the Warrior squads, as well as the Overlord.

Last list is basically full AV skew:

1844pts total
Zahndrekh
Veiltek
3 x Lance-teks

7 Deathmarks
2 x Triarch Stalker
8 Warriors in GA
2 x 7 Warriors in GA

2 x Annihilation Barges
Tesseract Ark

Of course everything needs to be fiddled with before these lists actually become competitive.

I generally go for foot+AV13 crons when I play them, and build the list around the following:

2-3 15-man warrior squads. 10 is too fragile, but I find 20 to be too unwieldy and to lack force concentration abilities. Obviously Res-lords are a must in these, with SW for tanking shots and a warscythe for CC goodness (so we at least have a chance in CC, or can challenge out a dangerous character.)

10 Immortals, usually with Gauss. These are always a bodyguard for the HQ and hang back until they're needed. I often add either a Cryptek with Chronometron (using the re-roll on the Overlord's 2+ save is nice) or with a Veil to allow them to hit hard and fast where I need them to. This counters the lack of mobility inherent in foot-cron lists.

For HQ, I'll generally take a Overlord with Warscythe, MSS, Semp, Res Orb and sometimes a Phase shifter if I expect to be facing AP2 CC units in challenges. I do think Zandrekh has a lot to offer in this kind of list, with plenty of units around to receive his free USRs.

HS will generally be 2 Annihilation Barges and then a Doomsday Ark or Spyder depending on points available. In lower point games, the ability to spawn a load of extra scarab bases is pretty amazing, especially for the low cost of the Spyder.

I'll almost always take a Stalker, the TL on large amounts of small arms fire can be a great force multiplier, and the 2-shot MM can be neat when people aren't expecting it, although with the amount of Gauss these lists are throwing around, vehicles have a hard time as it is.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

It seems to me from playing against Necrons frequently, that the basic troops are incredibly resilient, put out a ridiculous volume of highly accurate fire, and win pretty much every war of attrition they engage in. They glance vehicles to death all day. Footcrons should work just fine with Lords with Orbs and MSS in big blobs of warriors. Three or four big mobs, then add another eight or nine hundred points of whatever you like to kill MC. Scarabs can help destroy armor saves and destroy problematic vehicles. I'm not sure Necrons have a real weakness except for massed dedicated assault troops with HF and such, and there are plenty of odd units to run interference for your Warriors.

I often run my necrons by foot, and I have two units I rutinely field and that I am very pleased with so far.

First is a cryptek "deathstar" consisting of Zandreck, 4 destruction tek (one with a solar pulse) and a chronotech.

Quite expensive unit so be sure, but it has a lot of damage potential, and can take a lot of punishment.

On the offense, you can make sure that you ignore night fighting on turn 1 (or make it night for your opponent on the first turn regardless of the night fighting roll).
In addition you get 4 BS4 S8 AP2 shots, with tank hunter and you can reroll 1 to hit roll or one roll on the damage chart. I often play against Eldar, and this almost never fail to take down a vehicle every turn. It also killed two wraithlords last game I played it on the two first turns.

On the defense, it's important to make sure that Zendreck is staying in front and tanking all the wounds. He will then have a 2+/3++ with a single reroll every phase, and if he should be unlucky and go down he will be back up on a 4+. The whole unit has Ever living as well, so even if all of them gets shot down, they all have a 50/50 shot of getting back up again.

The second unit I often bring is a Monolith. To a slow moving foot slogging necron list, it actually brings a lot to the table. Deep strike somewhere close/behind the enemy, and move 20 warriors through the portal in rapid fire range for 40 shots plus a str 8 AP3 pieplate can ruin everyones day.

I actually think necrons have other options than Wraith/schyte wing, but those two are probably still the strongest builds we have (but also a bit boring imo )

well for starters, necrons do actually have a pretty good way of dealing with MC...its called spend 15 points on MSS. done. otherwise, spam them with tesla fire.

as for footcron, i have used to GREAT effect

20 warriors, + ghost ark + res orb lord (mss / ws) and a lancetek. do that 3 times. support with 10 man units of tesla immortals with veilteks and lords. then bring in spiders with fab claws.

the arks keep the warriors alive (sometimes using 3 to boost a single squad) and the spiders keep the arks allive.

the immortals bounce around and take objectives or harass., and packing MSS and lords in everywhere makes assaulting you a very bad ida. not to mention with 20 in a unit, or 10 tesla ...overwatch can be very nasty.

finally a few units that are nice and cheap and do great things:

- a unit of 4 crypteks with voltaic staves and a single veiltek. = vehicle begone! kills a armor unit every turn no prob. (and is less then 150 pts
- a unit of court lords with staffs of light. 3 shots each. str 5 AP 3. 5 of them? say goodby MEQ units.(185 for 5 base cost)
- praetorians with rods. i keep these guys around as a response unit. they dont attack, they counter. if someone drops a termie squad close by, or otherwise gets too close to my lines with a big scary, these guys jump up and nuke them. pricey at 200, but combined with mass gauss fire or any of the above units... it makes for a bad day to be getting close to my lines.

the things to remember... gauss hurts any vehicle. put enough shots out and it will go down. tesla at str 5 can hurt most anything as well. inc MC. and with extra hits, enough of these can REALLY make the other guy cry. take barges for more fun without going scythe spam. (or tombblades) also MSShave a pretty nasty stigma, so take them. they should act as a deterrent for incoming assaults. "your assaulting this squad? ok - that lord has a scythe and MSS" ...response "hmm ok well maybe not then..." if he charges in anyway, make those MSS pay off. another fav is the "stop hitting yourself " unit.
5 lords. weapons of choice. all have MSS. keep them hidden and if you're charged, bring them in and watch the enemy beat themselves up. nothing is funnier!

In my own experience, Mindshackle Scarabs aren't the best solution for taking down Monstrous Creatures, or holding off an assault.

Sure, they're great when you get a Lord into melee with a Riptide, MSS it, hit it with a warscythe, it loses combat and you sweep even at I2. I pulled it off once. The problem is that it's hilariously unlikely that you'll be able to get your 6" move Lord into melee with a Jet or Jump Monstrous Creature like a Riptide or Wraithknight. TMCs and Daemon Princes are a bit easier to deal with, as they do need to stay pretty close or get into melee to be effective.

MSS also have vastly reduced effectiveness against horde units assaulting. I've used a Necron Royal Court Disco Inferno several times, which has 6 MSS available (5 Lords + Trazyn). The unit is amazing against 'elite' infantry -- it slaughtered Calgar + 5 Assault Terminators and lost maybe one cryptek. Then again, you're not seeing elite melee infantry very often. The RCDI got swamped by 30 Boyz, and it didn't do as well. An average of 3 MSS activations do a lot less when that's 1/10 of the enemy unit hitting itself as opposed to 1/2 of the unit. MSS get better the more elite the enemy is.

Similarly, when all your defense against assault is a single Lord with Warscythe and MSS, all the enemy has to do is challenge your lord with his character, or not even do that. Your lord will kill about 1 model with his scythe and maybe 1 with MSS. Meanwhile they've bowled over a bunch of your warriors, and you lose combat by ~4, fail Ld6, and get swept at I2. I've had this happen way more often than the previous scenarios.

Don't get me wrong, MSS are still one of the best 15 points you could ever spend on an upgrade, but it's not a cure-all for Necron close combat common cold.

dont be aggressive with them. if you run MSS units, keep them back as a counter. my dont hit yourself unit, is actually pretty cheap.
overlord, ws/mss/orb, 4x lords, mss,1 lord mss/ws. if i have points i might add crypteks with staff of light, or even a veiltek if im feeling splurgy, but i like to keep the unit simple. and it hides behind my core, in cover and out of LOS. i only break them out if i get charged by something i feel my infantry cant take.and even then i usually wait untill he charges me, then come in next turn to reduce overwatch. the people i play against have learned this trick - and behold! they have stopped assaulting me. or at least have stopped charging a unit with my "why are you hitting yourself?" boys lurking close by. 6 mss usually accounts for half a 10 man squad doing nothing, and killing off another quarter of same. give or take. combined with my WS attacks, plus just general other hits i can usuaully win a fight pretty easy. if i see a huge horde of nids or orc boys, gaurdsmen etc, they are the first thing to get shot to pieces before they get too close. so the only thing i really have to worry about are fast moving hard hitters - wich the lords unit is a direct counter to. especially if i have some rod praetorians about as well. im not sure what unit out there can survive a fight with 20 necron warriors, an attached court lord with MSS/WS, a despairtek, plus the unit above AND 5 rod praetorians. aside from the sheer crud ton of attacks my overwatch is scary, and i have a ton of good str low AP hits on top of 7 MSS checks. that combo has taken down a full health swarmy, 10 man assault termie units, palladins, draigo, calgar... when you make calgar take 7 LD checks on 3d6...does not end well for mr fancy fists.

@DarthSpader

You say you use multiple Veilteks with Immortals? Seems awfully expensive to take an Overlord for each one

i keep my overlords cheap, and i generally take 2. to unlock 2 veilteks. then if i have the points obyron and zandrekh round out my HQ slots. sometimes i dont take zandrekh, but i find he can be useful, as he comes with an orb, and makes obyron (not take up an hq slot)

that said i generally run 2x10 tesla immortals, (no scythe) and 2x20 warrior squads with GA. if i can fit a 3rd in i do so, then pick up my tomb spiders. any left over points fo to annihlation barges, rod praetorians, or another overlord with a court tooled up for whatever i need. this is all rather doable inside of 2000pts and generally depends on who i play. but i also run my tac list that has a little of everything.

the key is how you use the units. running courts, or overlords etc right into the other guys lines is begging them to be shot up. instead i prefer a "rope a dope" style. sit back and trade volleys all while repairing and getting up etc, wait for him to over extend, then hard counter. often in this game i wont teleport anything for 2-3 turns, and then use it to spring onto a weak spot, thetheroy goes... i can repair everything in my army, and therefore can take some pounding... the other guy cant do that, so every loss he takes is that much more significant then any of my losses.;

I'll chip in that riding a heavily upgraded Overlord in his personal pimpmobile right up into your enemy's front lines will draw pretty much all of his guns right there, giving the rest of a footslogging army a lot less hassle as they move up the board. I fall victim to this, but. I just hope a vet squad or two and some Lascannons will pop his barge and make him eat melta before anyone else has to fire at him.

the overlord on barge trick is a waste of points... any decent army will shoot you down one turn, and then fill your lord full of bolter fire - taking out 200+ points from your army, and you get....nothing in return.

a better use for him is as a flank gaurd. keep him back with your army, out of LOS. when the other side trys to attack your flank, or DS in etc, he zips over and does his thing. use him to hit weak spots, and counter attack - you will get alot more mileage out of him and he will live longer. but just driving up the middile and saying "hi" - you're begging to be shot down. and 2 units is all thats needed...

Thariinye wrote:

Yeah, I noticed the high cost of full Warriors + GA when I was list-dojo-ing as well. It's cost-prohibitive to take more than one. We basically need to think of it as a Guard blob variant. It's more resilient than all but the most buffed of blobs, as Warriors have a better save, RP + Res Orb, and GA reanimation, but it has less shooting, CC power, and board size.

Let's do some quick mathhammer on resilience vs. Broadsides and Wave Serpents.
4 Wave Serpents Firing: ~8 shots each, all wounding on 2s, no shuriken shots for ease of calculation. All TL BS4, so about 90% hit, that's 29 hits, about 24 wounds. Warriors fail 12 saves, and 6 get back up from RP with Res Orb. Total casualties: 6 of 20, with about 2-3 brought back if the GAs are still alive and supporting. The GAs are critical here, as the blob still only lasts about 2-3 turns before it fails without GA reanimation.
3 Broadsides with Markerlight Support: 12 HYMP shots and 12 SMS shots, at BS5, TL. Basically, everything hits. 10 HYMP kills and 8 HYMP wounds, with 4 kills. RP brings back 7 hopefully, for a total of about 7. AP4 is nasty, but we still have a bit of resilience against a single team.

So yeah, our survivability is okay for 350 points or so of Warriors + GAs.

Perhaps into smaller 5-8 Warrior squads in Ghost Arks to keep the blob afloat as well as offer additional supporting firepower. Additionally, it could also allow for the inclusion of 1-2 Scythes for late game claiming plus some additional high strength firepower it may otherwise lack. Alternatively, since you brought up the veil, we could use Obyron with a squad of Tesla Immortals to contest as well (and allowing him to charge the following turn as well with their help if necessary).

With the Max blob, we should have a bunch of minimum squads as well, in as many Night Scythes as possible and still maintaining a good foot presence. It's still great to have these flyers in the air.

As for HQ choices, the FW Fearless guy is nice, but Fearless doesn't help against Terrify/Horrify. Then again, there's nothing in Necrons that helps in this area, so we just have to stomach it. Zahndrekh is probably who I'd recommend personally. Giving the blob or a Triarch Stalker Tank Hunters is really nice. The other granted abilities are nice but very situational. It's also nice to be able to take away night vision from say, a Tau unit, or Hit and Run from a Deathstar, or Tank Hunters from something buffed by the Buff Commander.

A Dlord is nice, but it really takes us in the direction of Wraiths, which just becomes the standard necron netlist again.


I guess this supports us taking both Zahndrekh and Obryon then. Then we have two teleportation measures, and one of them can help out the central blob if needed. Obyron can go with Immortals, and the Veiltek can do Death and Despair. However, even with the 24" teleport, the range on the D&D squad isn't that good. I still like the idea of using Nightscythes with them.

You know, I had been wondering just how well the blob would do against Wave Serpents and Broadsides (and to some extent Riptides). My biggest fear is that we would be treated basically like an Ork blob, but much more expensive. Thank you for the mathhammer (it's not really my thing...) It's good to see that it's durable enough to handle that kind of firepower and still keep moving. Although it also makes me reconsider just a singular blob. It definitely needs fast/more numerous threats to keep a lot of firepower off it. I know it can take 2-3 turns of shooting from more general armies like SM and maybe even IG, but can't take an entire army like Tau for more than a turn or two. I think this might be where Scarabs come in. Cheap and plentiful.

Still makes me wonder just how many blobs we should take though? I want to lean toward a single one with dual Ghost Ark support, the empty Ark being used to store Destructeks.

I do wish though that Zhandrekh also gave Monster Hunter...That would be amazing.

Ahhh for some reason the 24" range slipped my mind. You make a good point. Then I could see the necessity behind a Night Scythe. Plus, this would help us to avoid the whole intercept problem.

Thariinye wrote:

Stalkers I think could be the key to making an effective list...

I like the Tesseract Ark idea.

We are going to have to drop Annihilation Barges like you say if we have all of these things probably, unless we really want to go heavy armor instead of a heavy foot presence.

------

Unfortunately we can't put all of these things into a list at the same time and keep under the points limit. We have to figure out what's truly necessary to pull off a list without lots of Wraiths and Night Scythes.

Here's some potential lists:

Spoiler:

1845pts total
Zahndrekh
Obyron
Veiltek

10 Deathmarks
2 x Triarch Stalkers

10 Tesla Immortals
20 Warriors w/ GA
5 Warriors w/ GA

9 Scarabs
Annihilation Barge

Another list:
1843pts total
Necron Overlord w/ 2+, Warscythe
Obyron
Veiltek
2 x Lance-teks

10 Deathmarks
2 x Triarch Stalker

10 Tesla Immortals
8 Warriors in GA
8 Warriors in GA

Annihilation Barge
Tesseract Ark

This list is much more focused on the AV13 (and 14) wall, although it still has the teleportation elements in it. The lance-teks go into the GAs with the Warrior squads, as well as the Overlord.

Last list is basically full AV skew:

1844pts total
Zahndrekh
Veiltek
3 x Lance-teks

7 Deathmarks
2 x Triarch Stalker
8 Warriors in GA
2 x 7 Warriors in GA

2 x Annihilation Barges
Tesseract Ark

Of course everything needs to be fiddled with before these lists actually become competitive.

I like all of these lists, but honestly I think that the first and second one are my favorite. I really like the idea of Stalker support, I know that a lot of people are not fans of them, but I think that they benefit a troop heavy army much more or things like DDA or Monoliths, or even our jetbikes with Particle Beamers (the name is escaping me right now).

Though I do have to ask, how effective have Deathmarks been against things like Riptides or (which I think will do more damage) Wraithknights? I've been a Wraith/Scythe user and never had the opportunity to use them except once (and they didn't do anything).

Paradigm wrote:I generally go for foot+AV13 crons when I play them, and build the list around the following:

2-3 15-man warrior squads. 10 is too fragile, but I find 20 to be too unwieldy and to lack force concentration abilities. Obviously Res-lords are a must in these, with SW for tanking shots and a warscythe for CC goodness (so we at least have a chance in CC, or can challenge out a dangerous character.)

10 Immortals, usually with Gauss. These are always a bodyguard for the HQ and hang back until they're needed. I often add either a Cryptek with Chronometron (using the re-roll on the Overlord's 2+ save is nice) or with a Veil to allow them to hit hard and fast where I need them to. This counters the lack of mobility inherent in foot-cron lists.

For HQ, I'll generally take a Overlord with Warscythe, MSS, Semp, Res Orb and sometimes a Phase shifter if I expect to be facing AP2 CC units in challenges. I do think Zandrekh has a lot to offer in this kind of list, with plenty of units around to receive his free USRs.

HS will generally be 2 Annihilation Barges and then a Doomsday Ark or Spyder depending on points available. In lower point games, the ability to spawn a load of extra scarab bases is pretty amazing, especially for the low cost of the Spyder.

I'll almost always take a Stalker, the TL on large amounts of small arms fire can be a great force multiplier, and the 2-shot MM can be neat when people aren't expecting it, although with the amount of Gauss these lists are throwing around, vehicles have a hard time as it is.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

So, you've had good experience with more than one blob? How has that worked, especially against assault heavy lists? Do you simply use other things to screen? Like maybe scarabs or a weakened Warrior blob? Do you also choose to exempt Ghost Arks from the list?

It does actually. I think that the Immortals with Gauss are the ones I'm leaning toward in regards to mobility and hitting power, especially late game. They're durable enough to take some heavy fire power, and can even unleash their own. Besides with the arrival of all the Tau/Eldar armies, the AP4 is a great bonus to hitting hiding Firewarriors or Guardians/Avengers. How well does the Stalker usually work for you? Does it last a long time or is it a top priority target? I've debating on strapping a Heavy Gauss Cannon in some of my lists, but I'm starting to think that having the flexibility of a Heavy Flamer/Multi-Melta is almost too good not to have. I take it too, that when you bring the Stalker you also bring the DDA? Has that greatly improved the damage? I've found mine to usually be highly inaccurate and as a result, I'm hesitate on not taking any because of it.

codedaemon wrote:I often run my necrons by foot, and I have two units I rutinely field and that I am very pleased with so far.

First is a cryptek "deathstar" consisting of Zandreck, 4 destruction tek (one with a solar pulse) and a chronotech.

The second unit I often bring is a Monolith. To a slow moving foot slogging necron list, it actually brings a lot to the table. Deep strike somewhere close/behind the enemy, and move 20 warriors through the portal in rapid fire range for 40 shots plus a str 8 AP3 pieplate can ruin everyones day.

I think that this idea is really good. I hadn't considered it in the past. It's expensive, but it also allows you to ditch a Ghost Ark to put the Royal Court in which will also save you some points (though undoubtedly if you run a blob or two you will need to put Orb Lords in them to compensate). I'm still really digging this idea though. I had also considered a Monolith, it not only gives mobility, but is nice to use as an assault deterrent with the Gate.

DarthSpader wrote:well for starters, necrons do actually have a pretty good way of dealing with MC...its called spend 15 points on MSS. done. otherwise, spam them with tesla fire.

Although I agree that MSS work well for melee MCs, I was more thinking along the lines of at range. That's where we have the most difficulty dealing with them. Most options we have are expensive sadly.

DarthSpader wrote:as for footcron, i have used to GREAT effect

20 warriors, + ghost ark + res orb lord (mss / ws) and a lancetek. do that 3 times. support with 10 man units of tesla immortals with veilteks and lords. then bring in spiders with fab claws.

the arks keep the warriors alive (sometimes using 3 to boost a single squad) and the spiders keep the arks allive.

the immortals bounce around and take objectives or harass., and packing MSS and lords in everywhere makes assaulting you a very bad ida. not to mention with 20 in a unit, or 10 tesla ...overwatch can be very nasty.

finally a few units that are nice and cheap and do great things:

- a unit of 4 crypteks with voltaic staves and a single veiltek. = vehicle begone! kills a armor unit every turn no prob. (and is less then 150 pts
- a unit of court lords with staffs of light. 3 shots each. str 5 AP 3. 5 of them? say goodby MEQ units.(185 for 5 base cost)
- praetorians with rods. i keep these guys around as a response unit. they dont attack, they counter. if someone drops a termie squad close by, or otherwise gets too close to my lines with a big scary, these guys jump up and nuke them. pricey at 200, but combined with mass gauss fire or any of the above units... it makes for a bad day to be getting close to my lines.

Good tips on cheap combos. They are all good ideas, but the one thing I have to ask about is Praetorians. I've heard them get a lot of flak (a LOT) for their cost and the fact Wraiths do what they do better (although I think that Praetorians are actually better than people give them credit for), which is what causes me to ask how well have they done for you? What's the best way to use them? I see them as a glass hammer unit, not made to tank all the shooting/damage like Wraiths, but rather annoy and harass weaker units/MCs. Though I definitely think they need a Destroyer Lord to get the best effect out of them.

KommissarKiln wrote:I'll chip in that riding a heavily upgraded Overlord in his personal pimpmobile right up into your enemy's front lines will draw pretty much all of his guns right there, giving the rest of a footslogging army a lot less hassle as they move up the board. I fall victim to this, but. I just hope a vet squad or two and some Lascannons will pop his barge and make him eat melta before anyone else has to fire at him.

True, but in my experience I think a cheaper O.Lord does better (or at least one that's not your Warlord) as it is likely to draw a ton of fire. That way when it goes down (and it will) it won't hurt your army as much. I do want to experiment more with the Barge Lords though.

Thanks for all the idea guys. Let's keep it up!

You know, I had been wondering just how well the blob would do against Wave Serpents and Broadsides (and to some extent Riptides). My biggest fear is that we would be treated basically like an Ork blob, but much more expensive. Thank you for the mathhammer (it's not really my thing...) It's good to see that it's durable enough to handle that kind of firepower and still keep moving. Although it also makes me reconsider just a singular blob. It definitely needs fast/more numerous threats to keep a lot of firepower off it. I know it can take 2-3 turns of shooting from more general armies like SM and maybe even IG, but can't take an entire army like Tau for more than a turn or two. I think this might be where Scarabs come in. Cheap and plentiful.

Still makes me wonder just how many blobs we should take though? I want to lean toward a single one with dual Ghost Ark support, the empty Ark being used to store Destructeks.

I do wish though that Zhandrekh also gave Monster Hunter...That would be amazing.

Ahhh for some reason the 24" range slipped my mind. You make a good point. Then I could see the necessity behind a Night Scythe. Plus, this would help us to avoid the whole intercept problem.

The problem with using Scarabs as your screening unit hit me a little while back. While they have a lot of wounds per point, they're going to get instakilled by all the S6-7 prevalent in the game right now. A single wound for 15 points is a lot worse than 3 wounds for 15 points.

One Dual-GA-supported blob is about all the list can take while having enough room for all the other things we want to put in there. Putting all our eggs into two 20-man warriors blobs is not a good strategy. We're spending the same amount of points as someone who's playing a Jetseer Council, and gotten much less out them than the Eldar player. We can still work with a single well-supported blob.

I don't think Monster Hunter existed in 5th when the Codex was released.

I like all of these lists, but honestly I think that the first and second one are my favorite. I really like the idea of Stalker support, I know that a lot of people are not fans of them, but I think that they benefit a troop heavy army much more or things like DDA or Monoliths, or even our jetbikes with Particle Beamers (the name is escaping me right now).

Though I do have to ask, how effective have Deathmarks been against things like Riptides or (which I think will do more damage) Wraithknights? I've been a Wraith/Scythe user and never had the opportunity to use them except once (and they didn't do anything).

I like Stalkers a lot. People don't take them because they don't put out a lot of shots, they don't get a cover save like Annihilation Barges do, and when all of your ranged weapons are TL Tesla Destructors, as in the WraithScythe netlist, you can't benefit from the Stalker's buff. However, in a list that uses a lot of non-TL shots, the Stalker becomes a useful buffer, and a source of high Strength, low AP shooting.

I've never actually used Deathmarks. I just know that people have had effectiveness with Sternguard using their 2+ wounding ammunition on Monstrous Creatures, and Deathmarks are exactly the same against their marked target. You really have to use them in concert with the rest of your army though.

Let's say that we dropped in with 7 Deathmarks from Scythe next to a Riptide. They shoot 14 shots. About 9 of those shots should hit, and thus about 7 should wound, with about 1 rend. So the Riptide has taken about 2 wounds. Add in one more wound from the Veiltek's Flamer thingy, and we've taken off 3 wounds.

That's not that amazing, but the Riptide is one of the most survivable Monstrous Creatures in the game. Deathmarks would do better against TMCs and Wraithknights. Against them, we do 7 wounds, one of which rends as normal. However, then they fail 2 of those saves statistically, which means that combined with the cryptek, they've done 4 wounds on a single MC, more than half killing them in one round of shooting.

Now if you time things right by shooting your Triarch Stalkers at them right before using the Deathmarks, and maybe adding in either Destructeks or Heavy Destroyers afterwards, you'll kill whatever MC you need to.

More list building has lead me to agree with you. I don't like how little support we are able to add after the cost of two blobs plus Arks. I think that honestly the original idea behind the Stalker was to support the blob in this way. How many do you traditionally use and in what way? You said before that generally you have to drop Barges (or at least not take them), what do you bring instead? Just an extra Stalker and more troops instead? It seems that at least two are necessary to be decently effective and for redundancy. Also, just twin-linking Tesla Immortals seems amazingly good, and fun.

Good point on the Deathmarks. I think they'd much better be used to target Suits and Broadsides than Riptides. Or even Pathfinders which will markedly reduce the effectiveness of said Riptides. I've found Tides to be fairly lack luster without marker light support. But it does greatly help against a MC that is even more fearsome in my opinion:the Wraithknight. Without a proper assault deterent a Wraithknight will almost single handedly destroy our army.

I guess then the question should be what is our counter assault unit? Wraiths as per usual? Or do we go crazy and go the Disco Inferno as you've done before?

KelCJ wrote:

Paradigm wrote:I generally go for foot+AV13 crons when I play them, and build the list around the following:

2-3 15-man warrior squads. 10 is too fragile, but I find 20 to be too unwieldy and to lack force concentration abilities. Obviously Res-lords are a must in these, with SW for tanking shots and a warscythe for CC goodness (so we at least have a chance in CC, or can challenge out a dangerous character.)

10 Immortals, usually with Gauss. These are always a bodyguard for the HQ and hang back until they're needed. I often add either a Cryptek with Chronometron (using the re-roll on the Overlord's 2+ save is nice) or with a Veil to allow them to hit hard and fast where I need them to. This counters the lack of mobility inherent in foot-cron lists.

For HQ, I'll generally take a Overlord with Warscythe, MSS, Semp, Res Orb and sometimes a Phase shifter if I expect to be facing AP2 CC units in challenges. I do think Zandrekh has a lot to offer in this kind of list, with plenty of units around to receive his free USRs.

HS will generally be 2 Annihilation Barges and then a Doomsday Ark or Spyder depending on points available. In lower point games, the ability to spawn a load of extra scarab bases is pretty amazing, especially for the low cost of the Spyder.

I'll almost always take a Stalker, the TL on large amounts of small arms fire can be a great force multiplier, and the 2-shot MM can be neat when people aren't expecting it, although with the amount of Gauss these lists are throwing around, vehicles have a hard time as it is.

Hope that gives you some ideas.

So, you've had good experience with more than one blob? How has that worked, especially against assault heavy lists? Do you simply use other things to screen? Like maybe scarabs or a weakened Warrior blob? Do you also choose to exempt Ghost Arks from the list?

It does actually. I think that the Immortals with Gauss are the ones I'm leaning toward in regards to mobility and hitting power, especially late game. They're durable enough to take some heavy fire power, and can even unleash their own. Besides with the arrival of all the Tau/Eldar armies, the AP4 is a great bonus to hitting hiding Firewarriors or Guardians/Avengers. How well does the Stalker usually work for you? Does it last a long time or is it a top priority target? I've debating on strapping a Heavy Gauss Cannon in some of my lists, but I'm starting to think that having the flexibility of a Heavy Flamer/Multi-Melta is almost too good not to have. I take it too, that when you bring the Stalker you also bring the DDA? Has that greatly improved the damage? I've found mine to usually be highly inaccurate and as a result, I'm hesitate on not taking any because of it.

As I say, my sweet spot for blobs is at 15. 2 of those is not that expensive, and when properly supported they are very effective. Against assault-heavy lists, I will try and hang back until the biggest threats are taken out. To this end I always include a squad of Wraiths with a D-lord to go and either chop up or tarpit a dangerous CC unit (As a SM player, watching terminators waste their PF on a 3++ is just painful, Wraiths are good tarpits against good-AP units with low volume of attacks), I do try and screen as well, usually with scarab swarms (also a nice tarpit against non-dedicated CC units) and smaller warrior squads, 8-10 guys with no lord or anything,

The only reason I don't use Ghost Arks is that I don't own the models, but I agree that on paper they are amazing. I'd hesitate to bring one for every blob as that would get expensive, but one would certainly be a good addition.

I tend to use the Stalker in a supporting role to the warriors, actually, as with the amount of shots the warrior blobs put out is even more terrifying when they are all TL. Against large infantry squads or tanks, the extra hits means more wounds or glances, so that's its primary use. It does tend to last a while as, on paper, it's less threatening that the 2 AB screaming up the flanks or the Wraiths coming down the other. So that's a key to protecting blobs and their support, force the opponent to deal with other threats.

I can see it working well with the DDA, but I tend to just use that on its own and hope it hits. The trick is to pick somewhere where even if you scatter you can still do damage. Things like Guard blobs, large tank formations (never fire it at a single tank, it's not worth it) and units that are bunched up after DS, I've found it very helpful. However, I wouldn't say it's a must-take, I'd only take one if I've already got my fill of troops (both kinds) and tricks (2x AB, Wraiths with D-lord). So yeah, it can be good, but I'd leave it until playing above 1850

I'll mention one more thing that is a major weakness of footcrons: IG. If you're facing IG artillery, and especially manticores, then you need to always make sure to spread the warrior blobs. The AP4 barrages will tear them apart otherwise. When playing as Guard, I've tabled foot-crons in 3 turns because the opponent didn't spread against blasts, so just watch out for that (and now that Whirlwinds and TFCs are becoming more popular in Marine lists, watch out for those as well)

If you want to do Footcrons, I would honestly recommend the Dark Harvest list from IA:12

It does a lot for you. Flensing scarabs can give a blob of warriors shred the first round of combat in the game. It also makes Flayed ones troops, with that upgrade available as well.

Kutlakh would also be pretty great in a blob. He would make them fearless, and there are very few things that want to end up fighting Kutlakh.

The only thing you really loose is the Necron special characters. I would really consider taking a look at it.

He said Flayed ones

 KommissarKiln wrote:


He said Flayed ones

It's pretty clear that you've never actually tried Flayed ones as troops with flensing scarabs, They are actually not that bad at all, and can deal with a lot of units that would destroy warrior blobs.

However, you can just continue to post your snarky comment and not contribute anything.

Hmmm that's not a bad idea either. I think the main problem with flayed in the traditional necron book is the fact they aren't scoring. It's a lot harder to swallow 200 or even 130+ points on a unit that isn't scoring or killy enough. How well have they done for you Sasori? Plus I can see kutlakh being useful there. As he would also benefit from their infiltrate correct? Also he unlocks a royal court correct?

KelCJ wrote:
Hmmm that's not a bad idea either. I think the main problem with flayed in the traditional necron book is the fact they aren't scoring. It's a lot harder to swallow 200 or even 130+ points on a unit that isn't scoring or killy enough. How well have they done for you Sasori? Plus I can see kutlakh being useful there. As he would also benefit from their infiltrate correct? Also he unlocks a royal court correct?

Flayed ones are significantly better as troops, and with the flensing scarabs upgrade. While it's only shred once, it's incredibly useful, and is the upgrade for the unit is cheaper than a single flayed one. I'd say it's worth trying, some people like them, and some people don't. They are generally a bit harder to use, and this is a shooting oriented game, so keep that in mind. I would suggest at least trying them out a few times. I would take the Flensing Scarabs upgrade on everything you can. It can really make the difference.

I'd personally prefer Kutlakh in a Warrior blob. He gives them fearless and provides a very heavy combat punch. Necron Warriors have a much higher chance of loosing combat and getting swept than Flayed ones do. Kutlakh is an Overlord, so he does unlock a royal court as well.

Another unit you may consider looking into, are Canoptek Ancanthrites. They do not hit quite as hard as Wraiths, but they have Melta weapons, and are T5 3W 3+ models, so do MUCH better against volume of fire than wraiths do. I don't know everything about your Meta, but these could fill a hole in your list with excellent Anti-tank and decent CC. Just be careful not to get them into combat with any dedicated CC units.

I had considered Ancanthrites, they seem very good for what they give you. Especially since I do have a varied meta that leans toward Eldar and Tau giving everyone the hardest times...I would most definitely have to consider them. I've found my Wraiths often get killed more by Pulsefire shots than they do Plasma or any other such non-sense. Just wish they were cheaper than FW.

How many squads would work (of flayed ones I mean)? 2 10 man squads for infiltration pressure or just one large one?

KelCJ wrote:
I had considered Ancanthrites, they seem very good for what they give you. Especially since I do have a varied meta that leans toward Eldar and Tau giving everyone the hardest times...I would most definitely have to consider them. I've found my Wraiths often get killed more by Pulsefire shots than they do Plasma or any other such non-sense. Just wish they were cheaper than FW.

How many squads would work (of flayed ones I mean)? 2 10 man squads for infiltration pressure or just one large one?

Ancanthrites are incredibly good against volume of fire, so I would consider them for sure. They also have stealth, which can help against AP 1-3 weapons. They also go well with a Dlord, since the PE for their shooting and Melee really amps up their power.

For Flayed ones, it depends on the rest of your list, but I would stick with larger blobs. It's a lot harder to shift 15+ flayed ones. 10 Models are pretty easy to remove with the current volume of fire meta, and thus denying you RP. You just have to make sure you infiltrate them well. Remember, you can go to ground for increased cover.

There may be some cases when you want to deepstrike them in as well, but I would say that does not happen that often.

Another bonus to playing Dark Harvest- The awesome Warlord table.

Solid posts by Sasori.

As I'm one of the only people on earth that actually runs Flayed Ones outside of the DH list, I can definitely confirm you want one big group over two medium sized groups. I bring them either in a full 20, of a group of 5. The 5 group is a throw away, scout/infiltrate blocker, that you can throw at just about anything until it dies. The bigger group is much more flexible, as Sasori said, it has a much higher RP threshold.

On key to running Necron Foot spam is learning to "anchor" your units with RP. Find what ever LOS blocking terrain you can, and anchor at least one model behind it. This makes it much more difficult to get fully wiped, allowing you that critical RP role. 20 Flayed Ones, for instance, can stretch a 60" line out from your anchor. This should be more then enough to get them into CC.

Below is the Imothek Foot Spam I've been running since the codex first dropped. It's changed as the meta has changed, but the core has remained the same.

Imo
Chronotek
DLord/Res Orb/MSS/SW

20 Flayed Ones
10 Triarch Praetorians (I run VB/PC)

20 Warriors
5 Warriors
5 Warriors

6 Wraiths (1xWC)
3 Scarabs
3 Scarabs

Tomb Spyder
Tomb Spyder
Tomb Spyder

1965

The last 35 points tend to get spent in a variety of ways. More Scarabs, Lancetek, Gloom Prisms. Just kind of depends on my gut feelings and what I'm going to face at any particular tourney.

 Thariinye wrote:
In my own experience, Mindshackle Scarabs aren't the best solution for taking down Monstrous Creatures, or holding off an assault.

Sure, they're great when you get a Lord into melee with a Riptide, MSS it, hit it with a warscythe, it loses combat and you sweep even at I2. I pulled it off once. The problem is that it's hilariously unlikely that you'll be able to get your 6" move Lord into melee with a Jet or Jump Monstrous Creature like a Riptide or Wraithknight. TMCs and Daemon Princes are a bit easier to deal with, as they do need to stay pretty close or get into melee to be effective.

MSS also have vastly reduced effectiveness against horde units assaulting. I've used a Necron Royal Court Disco Inferno several times, which has 6 MSS available (5 Lords + Trazyn). The unit is amazing against 'elite' infantry -- it slaughtered Calgar + 5 Assault Terminators and lost maybe one cryptek. Then again, you're not seeing elite melee infantry very often. The RCDI got swamped by 30 Boyz, and it didn't do as well. An average of 3 MSS activations do a lot less when that's 1/10 of the enemy unit hitting itself as opposed to 1/2 of the unit. MSS get better the more elite the enemy is.

Similarly, when all your defense against assault is a single Lord with Warscythe and MSS, all the enemy has to do is challenge your lord with his character, or not even do that. Your lord will kill about 1 model with his scythe and maybe 1 with MSS. Meanwhile they've bowled over a bunch of your warriors, and you lose combat by ~4, fail Ld6, and get swept at I2. I've had this happen way more often than the previous scenarios.

Don't get me wrong, MSS are still one of the best 15 points you could ever spend on an upgrade, but it's not a cure-all for Necron close combat common cold.

Put your overlord in a CCB and you cannot be challenged or issue a challenger. You're also free to disengage combat during your movement phase, plus you gain the chariot sweep attacks if you move over an enemy unit during your movement phase, and you have fast, skimmer for movement. No problem catching jump units or MC

ShadarLogoth wrote:Solid posts by Sasori.

As I'm one of the only people on earth that actually runs Flayed Ones outside of the DH list, I can definitely confirm you want one big group over two medium sized groups. I bring them either in a full 20, of a group of 5. The 5 group is a throw away, scout/infiltrate blocker, that you can throw at just about anything until it dies. The bigger group is much more flexible, as Sasori said, it has a much higher RP threshold.

On key to running Necron Foot spam is learning to "anchor" your units with RP. Find what ever LOS blocking terrain you can, and anchor at least one model behind it. This makes it much more difficult to get fully wiped, allowing you that critical RP role. 20 Flayed Ones, for instance, can stretch a 60" line out from your anchor. This should be more then enough to get them into CC.

Below is the Imothek Foot Spam I've been running since the codex first dropped. It's changed as the meta has changed, but the core has remained the same.

Imo
Chronotek
DLord/Res Orb/MSS/SW

20 Flayed Ones
10 Triarch Praetorians (I run VB/PC)

20 Warriors
5 Warriors
5 Warriors

6 Wraiths (1xWC)
3 Scarabs
3 Scarabs

Tomb Spyder
Tomb Spyder
Tomb Spyder

1965

The last 35 points tend to get spent in a variety of ways. More Scarabs, Lancetek, Gloom Prisms. Just kind of depends on my gut feelings and what I'm going to face at any particular tourney.

I actually really like this list. Its so different and completely from the norm Necron list. It has some, at first glance, not so obvious synergy. I take it that it has preformed well through an edition and a half? I see this list giving problems against Tau with all its pressure and difficult target priority. I especially love the Praetorian use. I have to ask how do you use the them and any particular reason that you prefer Voids over Rod? Flexibility? Also good tips about the RP anchoring.

Thanks again for the suggestions, here's my hand at producing a couple lists after some reflection.

First with Stalker Support



Second list, this one inspired by Shadar



So, that is my thoughts on some form of competitive footcrons. What do you guys think and does it touch all the problems (or at least some) that it typically has?

Ancanthrites are incredibly good against volume of fire, so I would consider them for sure. They also have stealth, which can help against AP 1-3 weapons. They also go well with a Dlord, since the PE for their shooting and Melee really amps up their power.

For Flayed ones, it depends on the rest of your list, but I would stick with larger blobs. It's a lot harder to shift 15+ flayed ones. 10 Models are pretty easy to remove with the current volume of fire meta, and thus denying you RP. You just have to make sure you infiltrate them well. Remember, you can go to ground for increased cover.

There may be some cases when you want to deepstrike them in as well, but I would say that does not happen that often.

Another bonus to playing Dark Harvest- The awesome Warlord table.

That is a good point on the Warlord Table, it really is quite awesome...Hmmm I might need to pickup IA 12 then...So when it comes to Acanthrities, part of me can't help but think that we should deeply consider using them in tandem with Wraiths. They offer some valuable additives we otherwise lack, I mean even the limited at range use of Melta guns is really good to supplement a precharge of something they may typically struggle to deal with/or something thing the rest of our army may struggle to deal with. Who can really complain about fast moving and durable AP2? Plus, if we also think of them as a Destroyer Lord delivery system I think they also start to really shine. Their main goal could be to just get them into combat, and once there, detach him and let him reek terror into the rest of enemy lines. I think this could be very valuable versus the increasing amount of Tau/Eldar due to the overall durability versus ap 4 and lower weapons (which have a tendency to have a HRoF) that wrecks Wraiths. It's also a bonus that with the Melta weapons, we can actually have the Acanthrites wreck a Wave Serpent and then charge the troops inside as opposed to merely wrecking the Serpent in CC (Assuming we are running Scythe/Wraithwing)