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http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/12/feast-of-blades-will-be-enacting-restrictions-and-bans/


They have announced few specifics, but several overall objectives. I found the article they reference about metagame design fascinating. Some good ideas here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/17 12:02:11


 
   
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Someone from our gaming club pointed out that making changes to 40k without play testing is just as bad as GW doing it. Idk...I like the concept but pulling this off without pitchforks and torches will be tough. Especially when the sky is falling already.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/10 16:49:48


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Math in general doesn't need to be playtested terribly. People who have experience with the current meta and understand math can make reasonable corrections without extensive playtesting. While there should be some... we can have rough ideas through simple mathhammer.


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I like some of these... I like formation OR allies one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/10 16:52:58


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The trick with comp is going to be doing so in an evenhanded manner. That ban list is essentially "screw Daemons".


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Don't we already have a thread for this?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/567543.page

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Painnen wrote:
Someone from our gaming club pointed out that making changes to 40k without play testing is just as bad as GW doing it. Idk...


You could point out to him that FoB is, what, 10 months away? And that in the announcement they specifically state that it's a work in progress, and only list potential changes as an overview of what they are thinking about doing.



And yes, there's already a thread on this, that's for some inexplicable reason posted in the Battle Reports forum.

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The tone of his article didn't lead me to believe that they'd be shortening that list. Seems like they feel it's a good place to start.

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Parma, OH

I wonder if the limited Hell Drake option also includes the Autocannon variant. I don't think anyone complains about that load out.
   
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Was just reading through the other thread that is now locked and linked to this one (here), but I can't read the article in the OP because it looks like they've exceeded their bandwidth! Didn't expect all of Dakka to try to open it on the same day, apparently

So right now I get an error at this link, does anyone have it saved and can do a copy/paste?

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/12/feast-of-blades-will-be-enacting-restrictions-and-bans/
   
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Camas, WA

 RiTides wrote:
Was just reading through the other thread that is now locked and linked to this one (here), but I can't read the article in the OP because it looks like they've exceeded their bandwidth! Didn't expect all of Dakka to try to open it on the same day, apparently

So right now I get an error at this link, does anyone have it saved and can do a copy/paste?

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/12/feast-of-blades-will-be-enacting-restrictions-and-bans/


Here's the google cache

and the text:

Spoiler:
This is not going to be a short post. I will do my very best to explain what Feast of Blades as a tournament is doing, and to give you some insight into the thoughts going around at the high-level organizational level. For those of you who are unaware, I am the head 40k Tournament Organizer for Feast of Blades, an annual major 40k event.

With the recent release of Stronghold Assault and Escalation, 40k is, to put it bluntly, no longer suitable as a tournament game. The inclusion of Strength D into the game, following months and months of “power combo” lists taking top tables at tournaments has made it more than evident that this game as written simply isn't designed for or appropriate for ANY sort of high-level competitive play.

Some people think that's a good thing, or may simply say “no duh”. Believe me, none of us are blind to this fact, it's something we've all been aware of for the few decades 40k has existed. But up until this point, we've still pushed for competitive play and organized tournaments because they're fun. It's great to be able to go to a tournament for a weekend, drink beers and play games against strangers. It's awesome to see the variety of lists, the master-level paintjobs, and the crazy conversions that people come up with. And there's nothing in the hobby quite like seeing one of those big-event Apocalypse tables, with more Baneblades, Titans, and Thunderhawks than you've ever seen, flying around and fighting on the same board.

There's no doubt that 5th edition was the closest this game has ever been to a “tournament” rule set, but 6th has turned things the other way around. This isn't due to 6th being an innately terrible rule set, (yes, it definitely has problems, but it's not awful) but rather due to the rapid-fire codex release scheduled creating very powerful builds and combos.

Recently, we've been hearing from several very reliable sources that GW has stopped their playtesting, or has at least reduced it to a very minimal amount. This jives with the releases and units we've been seeing show up all across the country. You'll find mass Wraithknights, quad-Riptide, Necron Airforce, and Screamerstar as common contenders in many major (and not so major) tournaments across the country.

Can these lists be beaten? Yes. Definitely. We see top players beat them all the time. But are they fair? Do they create a fun tournament environment? To address that I'm going to take a very long quote from an article by Sirlin, a man who has designed several of his own games and rebalanced several more. I believe it cuts to the heart of the issue:

“…While I think the earlier arguments that good balance leads to problems in Chess and Starcraft make no sense at all, the argument about the metagame is much more subtle. I believed this same argument for a long time, but I don't any more. The argument goes like this: it's ok for a character to be too powerful because then players will try to find ways to beat that character with otherwise weaker characters who happen to be good against that particular strong character. Extra Credits further says that you explore more strategy in a game with this property than with a game with actually fair characters because with fair characters you'd be locked into doing the same kind of thing and not looking for counter-characters.”You could make that same argument about decks in Magic: the Gathering. I think this is an illusion, and I was caught in it for years because it's kind of “conventional wisdom” and never even really questioned or talked about. I only really started to realize why this doesn't add up when I was working on my own customizable card game. A “rich metagame” means there are lots of decks that counter other decks, and you get to sit around thinking about which deck will be common at a tournament and which you should choose in response. For example, if you discovered an unusual deck that could win 9-1 against the most of the field and lose 1-9 against part of the field, that could be a very, very strong deck. This is metagaming at its finest, yet it also leads to 100% of your games having terrible gameplay. (emphasis mine -Biscuit)

“And there's the rub. The kind of metagame under discussion is one where global imbalance is assumed to be “good.” The assumption is that sitting down to play another player and having a advantage or disadvantage before the game even starts is a great thing. Well, it kind of sucks actually, and violates the concepts of basic fairness. You could define “the game” to be the larger thing that involves “picking a deck/character + playing it” but that's hardly an answer. It's just admitting that the part where you actually play is kind of sucky and unfair.

“I'll tell you the key moment of discovery I had about this issue. I had several decks mocked up for my CCG. You would expect a variety of decks to happen to have several really unfair matchups, and for that to cause a metagame to form. The thing is, I didn't design these decks to win a tournament, I designed them to test out how the game plays, so I used a few rules of thumb in deckbuilding that actually prevented any really unfair matches like 8-2 from happening. I figured that later when we thought about how players would really build their decks (not according to my personal rules), we'd have to figure out how to deal with those inevitable 8-2 matchups. The CCG community often assumes they are great (“it's the metagame!”) but I think the emphasis should be on the part where you actually playing the game and making decisions. Deckbuilding is great, but not if it wrecks the fairness of individual games you will actually have to play.

“Anyway, allowing players complete freedom in deckbuilding in my game absolutely would lead to 8-2 matchups (like in any customizable card game) AND it would actually lead to worse strategy than my playtest decks! When metagaming and trying to win, you really want to take out all the “strategy” you can, and make sure you just stomp as many opposing decks as possible, even if you have pretty bad matches in there somewhere.

“You probably already see the revelation. Why not codify the rules of thumb of deckbuilding I was using into real rules of the game? Put limits on deckbuilding in such a way that still allow it, but that prevent the majority of unfair matches from happening. This seemed so obvious in hindsight.

“Now, unrelated to that, I also went to great lengths to give the player more strategic choices during a game than is usual in the genre. Tricky to do without being too complicated, but that's another story. The bottom line is so far this game is shaping up to be a game with more strategic choices during gameplay than other similar games I've played AND with fewer unfair matchups. This is possible by REDUCING the importance of the metagame. It's just more fun to have the GAME, the part where you actually sit down and play give you a) a lot of strategic options and b) as fair a match as we can give you.

“We shouldn't dwell on this particular in-development card game though. It's a general principle that you get more strategic depth during a game session by, well, focusing on making that as good as possible. As good as possible means putting more strategic decisions in and taking unfairness out. That's the opposite of the intentional imbalance glorified in the Extra Credits video. It's the opposite of making the decisions made before the game even starts become more important (necessarily making in-game decisions that much less important.)

“Making a bunch of unfair matches intentionally is just a poor man's solution to the problem of strategic variety. In the end, that poor man's solution constrains your strategic choices anyway, rather than opens them up. You're constrained to playing the overpowered characters or the counters, rather than having free choice of all characters. Having a set of characters who ALL have fair matches and who ALL have a lot of strategy options makes you wonder what the point of intentionally having unfair matchups ever was in the first place.”

Obviously, there's no way for us to make 40k into a “perfectly balanced” game without rewriting it from the ground up- no amount of banning or small rewrite is going to significantly alter the game to the point where listbuilding isn't a major part of the game that provides a major advantage to those who do it well. To be honest, I'm not even sure such a game would be fun- to make it work, much of the character of 40k would be stripped away in the process. And even if we did, no game is perfect. (I suppose it's another Sirlin reference, but the discussion of Chess' evolution and current state is what I'm more interested in with that article.)

Right now top level tournament lists are incredibly polarizing, much more than they have been in a long time, and playing these lists simply isn't any fun. No one is having a great time playing against Screamerstar, even most of the Screamerstar players I talk to aren't having a great time playing it. The mere existence of 3+ Heldrake builds has an extreme effect on the meta, annihilating hundreds of possible builds through it's ability to simply obliterate them. (So why even bring them?) I could go on, but I think you all know what I'm talking about.

It's past time for tournament organizers to step up and start taking some stewardship of the game. The top lists in 40k are, as a rule, simply no fun to play or play against, and limit much of the field by being so overwhelmingly powerful against so many reasonable builds. Really, the fact of the matter is that games in 6th edition between what we would consider mid-tier lists are a heck of a lot of fun, and what most players are requesting to play.

Feast of Blades is not the only tournament who is thinking this way. I would be extremely surprised if there is a major tournament from this point forward that does not use some form of restrictions and bannings in order to create a better game. GW has made it extremely clear that they do not care to balance the game for tournament level play, or create a fun top-tier metagame, so that architecture falls to us.

We are interested in running a tournament who's results fall more to player tabletop skill than listbuilding skill. We are interested in running an event where many builds are possible, not just a few power-and-counter builds. To that end, Feast of Blades will be enacting limits and bans.

The exact nature of these restrictions are already well into discussion and development, and will be available in their discrete form VERY soon. We know what the problem builds and combos are, now we are giving them the axe. Below, I will preview some of our changes:

———————————————————————————————————-

1.) The Grimoire of True Names from Codex: Daemons is banned
As of right now, this is the only true banning. We feel there is too much potential for abuse, and disagree with the effect it has on the army and the game.

2.) A few units will receive 0-1 status
For those of you who weren't around when 0-1 was a thing in codecies, means that a maximum of 1 of that unit may be taken per army. These are all units whose mass inclusion limits the potential lists in the game, and will thus be restricted. (As none of them are a problem on their own.) Rest assured that this will be a very short list, we are not interested in creating very restricted armies.

3.) Supplemental Codecies will no longer be able to ally to their base codex
There will be no more self-allying, no more cherry picking the best parts of a supplement while paying none of the costs, and no more force-org bloat from doing so.

4.) Dataslates will take an ally slot
Taking units from many, many different books and ignoring the force organization chart is too much. This change will make dataslates an interesting addition to the game, without allowing for truly bizzare armies.

5.) The number of psychic mastery levels in an army will be limited
This change will eliminate a great many power combos from the game, and will stop a player from making a lot of lucky rolls on the psychic power tables to effectively win the game before it begins.

6.) Strength D is out, Lords of Battle are in
We feel the the Lords of Battle are not overpowered on their own, the fact that they give the opponent some advantages (bonus to seize, and especially victory points) balances out their fearsome firepower and powerful endurance. Strength D, however, is too powerful. This is well-known by every apoc player (and I am one of them), and has been the case for the past two editions. (Yes, it was even overpowered back in 5th, and it was much worse then.) There is some debate still going on, but it looks like S will become S:10, ordinance, ignores cover. That still makes it very powerful, but more in line with the price paid for the superheavy as well as it's other weapon options. In addition, superheavies will have to start on the table.

7.) Super-forts are gone, or at least downsized
No AV15, it will be AV14 instead. Every individual fortification from Stronghold Assault is allowed, but the “network” choices are simply too big and unwieldy to allow for tournament play. (As a consolation, they're pretty terrible, so I think it's OK.)

8.) Dedicated transport flyers will be limited
Flyers are not the be-all end-all of this edition, but all-flyer and mostly-flyer armies change the meta in uncomfortable ways and are notoriously unfun to play against.

———————————————————————————————————-

For the vast majority of players, this list of changes will have little, and frequently no effect on their army build. Many of the games power builds, however, will become quite different.

We are aware that limitations such as these also create “new” power lists- after all, what was once second-tier must now be first. Perhaps. In the new environment there will certainly be builds better than others, and some that are extremely powerful. We expect that, but we also expect there to be a much greater variety of competitive options and lists vying for those spots. We also expect the game to be much more fun.

This is obviously a living document, and will be updated as time goes on. Not necessarily when a codex is released, but when we have had time to evaluate whether a certain unit, combination, item, etc. is actually very limiting to the field or not.

Our goal is to limit the game at the top end in ways that will be very small to most players in order to create a more balanced and fun tournament scene. We do not want to rewrite unit rules or entries or do things like adjust point costs, nor do we want to create massive documents that preside over army composition and limit force creation in detailed ways. We believe simple changes are for the best.

Obviously there are some who will cry foul at our attempt, or disagree with some of the things we have done. That's fine. They can always choose to play in different events, or create their own! But I think it is worth noting that Feast is simply the first of many events that will be instituting policies like these in one form or another, so you should be prepared. It's worth remembering that the 2013 Feast event was one of the the most by-the-book events ever run- it even used straight book missions with no modifications. If we're the first to do this, we certainly won't be the last.

GW is no longer creating a fun tournament environment, so it falls to us. In the same way that casual gamers are adults who can agree on how they would like to play, the tournament scene will adjust itself so that it creates fun, memorable, and challenging games of 40k. Anything else would be a failure on our parts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/10 18:57:54


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Thanks pretre, I guess this is the key part (what they're leaning towards with their restrictions currently):

The exact nature of these restrictions are already well into discussion and development, and will be available in their discrete form VERY soon. We know what the problem builds and combos are, now we are giving them the axe. Below, I will preview some of our changes:

———————————————————————————————————-

1.) The Grimoire of True Names from Codex: Daemons is banned
As of right now, this is the only true banning. We feel there is too much potential for abuse, and disagree with the effect it has on the army and the game.

2.) A few units will receive 0-1 status
For those of you who weren't around when 0-1 was a thing in codecies, means that a maximum of 1 of that unit may be taken per army. These are all units whose mass inclusion limits the potential lists in the game, and will thus be restricted. (As none of them are a problem on their own.) Rest assured that this will be a very short list, we are not interested in creating very restricted armies.

3.) Supplemental Codecies will no longer be able to ally to their base codex
There will be no more self-allying, no more cherry picking the best parts of a supplement while paying none of the costs, and no more force-org bloat from doing so.

4.) Dataslates will take an ally slot
Taking units from many, many different books and ignoring the force organization chart is too much. This change will make dataslates an interesting addition to the game, without allowing for truly bizzare armies.

5.) The number of psychic mastery levels in an army will be limited
This change will eliminate a great many power combos from the game, and will stop a player from making a lot of lucky rolls on the psychic power tables to effectively win the game before it begins.

6.) Strength D is out, Lords of Battle are in
We feel the the Lords of Battle are not overpowered on their own, the fact that they give the opponent some advantages (bonus to seize, and especially victory points) balances out their fearsome firepower and powerful endurance. Strength D, however, is too powerful. This is well-known by every apoc player (and I am one of them), and has been the case for the past two editions. (Yes, it was even overpowered back in 5th, and it was much worse then.) There is some debate still going on, but it looks like S will become S:10, ordinance, ignores cover. That still makes it very powerful, but more in line with the price paid for the superheavy as well as it's other weapon options. In addition, superheavies will have to start on the table.

7.) Super-forts are gone, or at least downsized
No AV15, it will be AV14 instead. Every individual fortification from Stronghold Assault is allowed, but the “network” choices are simply too big and unwieldy to allow for tournament play. (As a consolation, they're pretty terrible, so I think it's OK.)

8.) Dedicated transport flyers will be limited
Flyers are not the be-all end-all of this edition, but all-flyer and mostly-flyer armies change the meta in uncomfortable ways and are notoriously unfun to play against.

———————————————————————————————————-
   
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I am in favor of these changes. Let some of the other tournaments cater to the cheeze head win at all cost players. The game has been in need of balance for a very long time and GW is neglegent. All they care about now are rules that sell models. See:rvanna riptide, new marine super flyer, centurions with grav guns, riptides, necron crossants, ect..

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

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As I said in the other thread, I love this idea, but they have to make it all inclusive. This list of bans / comps should bey fairly long before it's finished and as long as reasonable time is spent getting it right they'll still have a solid attendance.

I can't argue against the reasons for the comp system that he's given. I'd like to see this develop more to the way of the ETC though. They don't usually ban things, but put restrictions on combinations of things in an effort to balance....

But in the end, haters gonna hate.

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Really? Banning grimoire? Why not beat every non-tzeench daemon player in the face with a stick after they pay you to go.

Limiting mastery levels in an army? Same thing. Daemons only options are 1 weapon and psychic mastery levels. Heck, I run mono-slaanesh, and without my odd invis here or there, my t3 5+ dies, esp with no grimoire.

Well played Imperium of Man, well played.

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Yup, I think some of the above is too heavy handed.

Banning the Grimoir and limiting mastery levels essentially wipes out the top 2 Daemon builds, while not hurting Tau and Eldar Much at all (seer council might be hurt by ML restriction, but Serpent spam won't be, so unless Wave Serpents are one of the 0-1 units they'll still be the Top army.)
   
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This really makes me excited to see what Frontline, Adepticon, and Nova decide to do about the current issues. Clearly, decisions have to be made about a lot of these new products, and I applaud Feast for being proactive. I think these steps are a little misguided, but the fact that steps are being taken by a major US tournament is a good sign. The other big events should hopefully be a little more balanced than this, but if this opens the door to the possibility of major changes coming from the other guys, I'm happy about it.
   
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Some of this seems...harsh, premature, and overly invasive.

Banning the Grimiore is pretty intense. As is limiting the total number of psy masterly levels. Some of the other fixes seem decent, but maybe unnecessary. I'm still in favor of more broad changes than constantly limiting each release.

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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 Dude_I_Suck wrote:
Really? Banning grimoire? Why not beat every non-tzeench daemon player in the face with a stick after they pay you to go.

Limiting mastery levels in an army? Same thing. Daemons only options are 1 weapon and psychic mastery levels. Heck, I run mono-slaanesh, and without my odd invis here or there, my t3 5+ dies, esp with no grimoire.

Well played Imperium of Man, well played.


I have to agree whole heartedly... This suggested comp as of right now reads like a butt-hurt Durp Knight player who's pissed they can't auto-win vs. Daemons anymore.

No Grimoire, limit on Mastery Lv's, why not just come right out and say what you mean, "I think Chaos Daemons are broken so they're banned."

If they want this to be taken seriously, then do one or both of two things;
1. Place a limit on the combos like ETC does as mentioned above. So to 'fix' the Daemons issue, make something like, 'either Fateweaver OR The Grimoire may be taken in the same army.' There, done. Now the 'Screamerstar' is only 66% efficient as it lacks the key re-roll Fatey provided to make it a no-brainer option.
You can also add in something like, 'no more than 8 levels of Divination & Telepathy combined may be taken.' Mono-Slaanesh won't run a lot/if any Div as they need Tzeentch HQ's for that, meanwhile the stupidity you can reach by combined mass Div + Telepathy across a mono-Tzeentch army is kept in check.

2. Limit the number of duplicate choices, or else provide 'comp hits' to spamming the main culprit sections.
0-1 limits only ever led to cookie-cutter lists back in the day. It's why GW did away with them. If someone really wants their crutches, let them have them, just perhaps take a page from the Swedish Comp system in Fantasy and provide a big comp hit/bonus VP's to their opponent for going overboard on the really dumb things like 6+ Wave Serpents. It will encourage more diversity in lists and reduce the extreme crutch builds.
Now by 'duplicate choices', it means exactly that; limit the number of 100% carbon copies, down to the last upgrade. So for example, if an Eldar player wants their 4x 5 Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents, then they'll need to spend a few added points to ensure that each unit is slightly different. It may not 100% 'fix' the problem, but it is adding a tax to taking your favourite crutch which will hurt your overall list in the end.

 
   
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I have no idea what the Gromoire does, so no opinion there. Not sure of the need to limit psychic levels... but other than that, I really like this list, and would love to see something similar implemented for Adepticon.

 
   
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Connah's Quay, North Wales

Good idea, not great execution. I understand where he is coming from, most high level super competitive lists simply aren't to much fun to play against, while i enjoyed my foray into competiitve lists, they where still friendly games. In a tourney, you aren't guaranteed of this, so for everyone to have fun i agree they NEED to change some rules or add in some restrictions. I also agree that this list beats on daemon quite hard, i believe they shouldn't ban Grimour, but they can't leave it how it is, even when used on Khorne Dogs they re still OP when they get forewarning. Before i get on to the mastery level limit, i would want to know what it is. For example if the mastery level limit is somewhere around 10-12 i would be OK with that, gives you room to have fateweaver and a herald or two, but not 4 heralds with Fateweaver and some daemon princes. Seems fair to me. I will be extremely interested to see how this tourny goes down, not to see the balance, but to see if people have more fun.

 
   
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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 insaniak wrote:
I have no idea what the Gromoire does, so no opinion there. Not sure of the need to limit psychic levels... but other than that, I really like this list, and would love to see something similar implemented for Adepticon.


1. The Grimoire of True Names adds +2 to the invulnerable save of any unit with the 'Daemon' special rule on a roll of 3+. But on a 1-2, that unit suffers -1 invuln instead. It cannot affect the Daemon carrying it - ever!
Daemons of Tzeentch have the ability to always re-rolls saving throw results of 1, plus Tzheralds & LoC have access to upto 3 levels of Divination.

The problem steams from spamming Divination in order to gain the 4++ Blessing power, then use the Grimoire to further push it up to a 2++ save, which Daemons of Tzeentch then re-roll 1's.
Do this to a unit of 9 Screamers + 4 Tzheralds all riding Discs and you've got one of the biggest & most boring crutches in the game.

2. They don't need to limit the amount of psychic levels at all - just limit the amount of Divination especially, and perhaps Telepathy that an army can include. Divination is stupidly broken atm because only SW's can reliably counter the "lore of blessings" as it's known.

 
   
Made in us
Uhlan





I’m a bit of a daemons player. Also, I’ve played against them in competitions; several varieties. My current tournament army contains 1/3 daemons as allies. I don’t run the Grimore and I don’t think it’s an auto include.

Look, the grimore is a solid 30 point buy. I’m not going to deny that, but damn. It appears that many think that there is NO way to run a successful daemons list without it? Really? I mean, Really!? This one piece of wargear is so great that playing without it is an outrageous concept.

If you have that kind of knee jerk reaction, think these things. 1) Do I play Daemons? If not, think before saying it’s the only way. You haven’t tried it. 2) Have I played a daemons list without it? If not, think before saying it’s the only way. You haven’t tried it. 3) If you have played daemons without it. Great, you can complain in safety. But think on this, if it is such an auto include that you can’t imagine taking a daemons list without it, doesn’t that indicate an issue?

Again it’s a great piece of wargear(well gift) but it’s not the end all be all of that Codex and saying that banning it kills all possible builds is just hyperbolic and silly. Take a lesson I learned from IG, redundancy. Instead of taking one powerful unit, buffing its survivability, and letting it do the heavy lifting, try taking multiples that way if one dies that battle isn’t lost. I’m for banning the grimore and I say that even though I use daemons competitively.

I play +  
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Datajax wrote:
I’m a bit of a daemons player. Also, I’ve played against them in competitions; several varieties. My current tournament army contains 1/3 daemons as allies. I don’t run the Grimore and I don’t think it’s an auto include.

Look, the grimore is a solid 30 point buy. I’m not going to deny that, but damn. It appears that many think that there is NO way to run a successful daemons list without it? Really? I mean, Really!? This one piece of wargear is so great that playing without it is an outrageous concept.

If you have that kind of knee jerk reaction, think these things. 1) Do I play Daemons? If not, think before saying it’s the only way. You haven’t tried it. 2) Have I played a daemons list without it? If not, think before saying it’s the only way. You haven’t tried it. 3) If you have played daemons without it. Great, you can complain in safety. But think on this, if it is such an auto include that you can’t imagine taking a daemons list without it, doesn’t that indicate an issue?

Again it’s a great piece of wargear(well gift) but it’s not the end all be all of that Codex and saying that banning it kills all possible builds is just hyperbolic and silly. Take a lesson I learned from IG, redundancy. Instead of taking one powerful unit, buffing its survivability, and letting it do the heavy lifting, try taking multiples that way if one dies that battle isn’t lost. I’m for banning the grimore and I say that even though I use daemons competitively.


The big issue with the Grimoire is when it's used on Tzeentch's boys alongside Fatey to build the foolproof 2++/re-roll unit. Fix the single abusive issue - don't nerf the entire freaking codex because of a single gimmick.

As a mono-Tzeentch player, I have never found the Grimoire to be 'auto-include' in order to win.
When I do use it, I'd rather use it as well as Forewarning, not combo'd with it into a single target though... Having a unit of 4++ Flamers, coupled with a LoC casting Precognition on himself and then hitting the Changebringers ('counts as' Plaguedrones) with "The Good Book" while going flat out with the Screamers is way more flexible and overall useful than a single 'uber unit.

 
   
Made in us
Wraith






I think this is the appropriate responses from the GT TOs, but I think some people are knee jerking too hard. It's about 10 months until Feast. Their comp list will change by then because they will do one thing GW doesn't.... play test it.

So stop getting amazingly upset over the grimoire not being there. A better solution will be had. But this is a step in the right direction. I'd love to feel at least like I could possibly stand a chance if I wanted to bring pure sisters without relying on allies or static fortifications because hell turkeys vaporize my army like no tomorrow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/11 01:10:07


Shine on, Kaldor Dayglow!
Not Ken Lobb

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Datajax wrote:
I’m a bit of a daemons player. Also, I’ve played against them in competitions; several varieties. My current tournament army contains 1/3 daemons as allies. I don’t run the Grimore and I don’t think it’s an auto include.

Look, the grimore is a solid 30 point buy. I’m not going to deny that, but damn. It appears that many think that there is NO way to run a successful daemons list without it? Really? I mean, Really!? This one piece of wargear is so great that playing without it is an outrageous concept.

If you have that kind of knee jerk reaction, think these things. 1) Do I play Daemons? If not, think before saying it’s the only way. You haven’t tried it. 2) Have I played a daemons list without it? If not, think before saying it’s the only way. You haven’t tried it. 3) If you have played daemons without it. Great, you can complain in safety. But think on this, if it is such an auto include that you can’t imagine taking a daemons list without it, doesn’t that indicate an issue?

Again it’s a great piece of wargear(well gift) but it’s not the end all be all of that Codex and saying that banning it kills all possible builds is just hyperbolic and silly. Take a lesson I learned from IG, redundancy. Instead of taking one powerful unit, buffing its survivability, and letting it do the heavy lifting, try taking multiples that way if one dies that battle isn’t lost. I’m for banning the grimore and I say that even though I use daemons competitively.


Excellent post!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eye of Terror

"I learned from IG, redundancy. Instead of taking one powerful unit, buffing its survivability, and letting it do the heavy lifting, try taking multiples..."

You've got to love the irony.

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Made in us
Ruthless Interrogator





Ann Arbor, MI

It's a shame it has come to this. GW have placed the bait, now the community gets to tear itself apart with everyone trying their hand at 'fixing' 40k.

Feast 2012 had some of the worst-balanced scenarios I've ever played in a GT. At a time when Necrons were at the height of their powers, they introduced 'table quarters' (in which Flyers were entirely non-scoring) in every mission in an attempt to rebalance the game. What happened? Maybe 1 Necron Scythewing actually showed up, then promptly got smacked into the low, low brackets, while Flamer/Screamer Daemon spam beat face on every other table. Mmmm...taste the balance!

Point being: if the people who drafted those missions are the same ones trying to 'fix' 40k with a ban/restriction list, then I have zero confidence they'll do it. They'll just break the game in their own special way, again. They can rewrite all the rules they like, fix whatever 'exploits' they think they've identified, and at the end of the day they can rest assured that -- between all of the people who actually show up for their tournament -- someone is going to game whatever new ruleset they've created. Someone will find where it can be exploited. Hell, half the people who attended Feast 2012 figured out that 27 Flamers/27 Screamers would dominate that event, and Feast specifically designed the rules that let that happen. Does that engender confidence that this will go any better?

Have fun with Feasthammer, I won't be coming back.
   
Made in kr
Fresh-Faced New User




As some one who's been out of 40K for a while, but just recently got back in, I'm really sad to hear about the current state of 40K tournaments. I've been playing since 3rd edition, and the 6th Edition rule book is the best I've seen yet. (Not perfect, but better than 3rd, 4th, or 5th.) But the cheesy/OP/power builds out there, I'm really disheartened. Tournaments are one of my favorite things about games.

I think this sums it up best:
...You're constrained to playing the overpowered characters or the counters, rather than having free choice of all characters....

Just replace 'characters' with 'units'

I'm all for proposed idea of banning and restrictions. On exactly 'what' and 'how,' is obviously debatable.

...and I'm the king of spam. I always use 3 or something, even 3 heldrakes (I got them because I thought they were cool.) But I'm willing to accept a 0-1 restriction or ban on anything.
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 whigwam wrote:
It's a shame it has come to this. GW have placed the bait, now the community gets to tear itself apart with everyone trying their hand at 'fixing' 40k.

Feast 2012 had some of the worst-balanced scenarios I've ever played in a GT. At a time when Necrons were at the height of their powers, they introduced 'table quarters' (in which Flyers were entirely non-scoring) in every mission in an attempt to rebalance the game. What happened? Maybe 1 Necron Scythewing actually showed up, then promptly got smacked into the low, low brackets, while Flamer/Screamer Daemon spam beat face on every other table. Mmmm...taste the balance!

Point being: if the people who drafted those missions are the same ones trying to 'fix' 40k with a ban/restriction list, then I have zero confidence they'll do it. They'll just break the game in their own special way, again. They can rewrite all the rules they like, fix whatever 'exploits' they think they've identified, and at the end of the day they can rest assured that -- between all of the people who actually show up for their tournament -- someone is going to game whatever new ruleset they've created. Someone will find where it can be exploited. Hell, half the people who attended Feast 2012 figured out that 27 Flamers/27 Screamers would dominate that event, and Feast specifically designed the rules that let that happen. Does that engender confidence that this will go any better?

Have fun with Feasthammer, I won't be coming back.


And looking at your sig I am SURE there is no bias in your accusations At least their making an attempt. It's early yet, give them a chance I say, or better yet stay home with your bad attitude.

   
Made in us
Hunter with Harpoon Laucher




Castle Clarkenstein

I applaud their bravery. They are taking steps to make their event what they want, and offer to the players who want to attend. Lots of work and headaches.

Even mentioning comp seems to bring out the mob with pitchforks and torches. Running a comp system for a GT simply cannot be tolerated by the thousands of brave internet warriors who werent' going to attend anyway.

With several months headstart, I'm curious to see how the system evolves and what the final product is.

....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
 
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