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I'm intending to buy myself a Dreamforge leviathan as a belated Christmas present next month and was wondering what rules to use for it.

For those that don't know what it is here's a picture of one facing a Warhound titan for size and model comparison.



I'm intending to get one of those and an additional Gun arm (a huge laser cannon) that can be freely swapped around, all for £100 brand new.


Rules wise many people use it as a proxy for a Warhound titan, its similar in height and the weapons i'll have are direct equivalents to a Warhound - Vulkan Megabolter & Turbo Laser. It is however alot less bulky that a Warhound especially in the top section, likely it would weight much less that halve it total weight, also the warhound doesn't have the option for a close combat weapon

My friends and local play group would have no problem with me using it as a Warhound in games of escalation as we're pretty relaxed and would just be happy to play against a cool model but as it is much more like the size and aesthetic of a Knight titan I thought I'd have a go at writing some rules for it and see what other think.


I'm not trying to make rules for a traditional Knight titan here as I have little knowledge of them, I'm making specific rules for using the Dreamforge model that I'd own.


Imperial Leviathan Knight Titan


- So to start with we have the stat line:

WS BS S F S R I A HP
3 4 10 14 13 12 2 2 6

It's got an extra WS, I, A over a Warhound due to its smaller size and more close combat oriented style. Other than that it's got good armour and the 6 hull points is as low as I think its feasible to go for a superheavy titan.


- Other rules:

Superheavy walker, Agile, 1x Void Shield - these are the same as those found in the escalation/apoc books.


- Weapons, due to the options I intend to get the titan must choose two of the following weapon options:

Mega Assault Cannon - Range: 48", S:7, AP4, Primary Weapon 6, Rending, Small Blast - As seen on the model above, basically a giant assault cannon.
Turbo Laser Destructor - Range: 96", S, AP:2, Primary Weapon 1, Large Blast - A single shot version of the Warhound's weapon
Titan Close Combat Weapon - S, AP1, Melee - The basic melee weapon for super heavies.

Also the model has a two cannons build into either side of its torso which I've given the following profile:
Dual Close Engagement Cannons - Range 24", S:9, AP:3, Heavy 2, Twin Linked - A low ranged anti-armour gun for when closing on a target.


So on to the hard part - points.

Survivability wise it has less HP and shields than a warhound but similar armour, firepower wise it has about halve the potential output and is very restricted by its weapon option (due to what I'll own). For reference a Warhound costs a little over 700pts

Hard to put a number on it but I'm thinking around 400-500 points due to it being not very hard to kill if you get close with melta or can get in the sides/rear, god forbid it gets hit with a destroyer weapon ;-/

I'm plumping for 450pts, I'd really like other's opinions though as this is the hardest part.



Another option is to make it a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature but I feel it wouldn't fit the Imperial style if I did that.

 WisdomLS wrote:

Turbo Laser Destructor - Range: 96", S, AP:2, Primary Weapon 1, Large Blast - A single shot version of the Warhound's weapon
Titan Close Combat Weapon - S, AP1, Melee - The basic melee weapon for super heavies.

I won't lie, seeing those profiles in a book would creep me out.

'Strength: '

The Shadowsword, with 1 D weapon and assorted other stuff, is 475 and lacks a void shield (though does have 3 more Hull Points).

I think anything with a Void Shield should break 500, although you have only one, so I'd be comfortable with 525 - same as a stock Baneblade, with the same armor, fewer hullpoints, and the ability to get stuck in combat on one side, but with a void shield and access to two Str D blasts on the other.

I hadn't noticed the S 'D' smiley, I agree it would be very creepy

The Shadowsword, with 1 D weapon and assorted other stuff, is 475 and lacks a void shield (though does have 3 more Hull Points).

I think anything with a Void Shield should break 500, although you have only one, so I'd be comfortable with 525 - same as a stock Baneblade, with the same armor, fewer hullpoints, and the ability to get stuck in combat on one side, but with a void shield and access to two Str D blasts on the other.

Thanks for the feedback, one thing to note is these rules are just for the model I intend to get so it will only have access to a single S 'D' ranged weapon, perhaps if I altered the rules to state that it had to choose two different weapons from the selection.

I struggle with the survivability -to-points ratio, having played with a Baneblade they aren't that difficult to take down so I'm a little worried about costing a 6HP vehicle too high, the void shield is useful but not hard to remove.
Perhaps a extra hullpoint?

 WisdomLS wrote:
I hadn't noticed the S 'D' smiley, I agree it would be very creepy

The Shadowsword, with 1 D weapon and assorted other stuff, is 475 and lacks a void shield (though does have 3 more Hull Points).

I think anything with a Void Shield should break 500, although you have only one, so I'd be comfortable with 525 - same as a stock Baneblade, with the same armor, fewer hullpoints, and the ability to get stuck in combat on one side, but with a void shield and access to two Str D blasts on the other.

Thanks for the feedback, one thing to note is these rules are just for the model I intend to get so it will only have access to a single S 'D' ranged weapon, perhaps if I altered the rules to state that it had to choose two different weapons from the selection.

I struggle with the survivability -to-points ratio, having played with a Baneblade they aren't that difficult to take down so I'm a little worried about costing a 6HP vehicle too high, the void shield is useful but not hard to remove.
Perhaps a extra hullpoint?

With the armored thickness of that hull, the hullpoints will be rather irrelevant - not much will be able to penetrate it. In my most recent game with my Baneblade of Escalation, it lost a grand total of two hullpoints (because its armor was so thick) and it didn't even have a void shield to absorb one (and sometimes more than one) hit.

AV14 is ridiculously thick armor in 40k - very few weapons can handle it, and walkers are still hit on their front armor in close combat, so not even smashing MCs will really be able to hurt it terribly much.


EDIT: Crucially, the Void Shield also makes the Knight more resistant to D weapons, which is a big deal (although, admittedly, "more resistant" is not the same as "good against", lol).

Good point about the front AV in assault, my banebalade is usually damaged most by being assaulted.

I think it is a bit too powerful on the weapon loadout for my liking, other 6 HP vehicles bring only a single notable weapon system or survavability or multiple weapon systems. Sometimes they do two well. This brings all those options and for cheaper.

Depending on the weapon options, if it can bring two of those Turbolasers it is now severely outclassing anything in the 600 point range let alone 4-500s.


Needs tamed. I'd recommend taking the D-weapon down to something else and perhaps even the Armor Value. Then re-calculate points and you should hit the mark you are looking for.

If you are going to leave it as is, I'd say it needs to be in the mid to high 500s at the least.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I think it is a bit too powerful on the weapon loadout for my liking, other 6 HP vehicles bring only a single notable weapon system or survavability or multiple weapon systems. Sometimes they do two well. This brings all those options and for cheaper.

Depending on the weapon options, if it can bring two of those Turbolasers it is now severely outclassing anything in the 600 point range let alone 4-500s.


Needs tamed. I'd recommend taking the D-weapon down to something else and perhaps even the Armor Value. Then re-calculate points and you should hit the mark you are looking for.

If you are going to leave it as is, I'd say it needs to be in the mid to high 500s at the least.

Thanks for the notes, could you give me some examples of other 6 HP vehicles I could go take a look at for comparison. I think 6 is the right amount for it so comparing points and weapon power would be a big help as I've just been working backwards from a Warhound.

Ive got some feedback here --
I ran across my old EPIC stuff yesterday -- the Knight Titans were in there and they had -- unusual -- rules to say the least.
The human knight titans had shields that were very similar to void shields. They had a 180' arc to the front and depending on the order that was given to them the special save it had would fluctuate.

My proposal --

450 pts
Stat line as a Warhound
Except : No Void Shields -- Instead it has a 5++ save from shots in its front 180' arc.
The weapon options are the same as the Warhound, except it comes stock with a Titan Class CCW -- Use the stats from the Reaver titan.
If the player goes with the two shooting weapons, then bump it back up to the Warhound stats and points through and through -- i.e. -- it gets the 2 Void shields back and losses the CCW and Invuln. save.

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Ive got some feedback here --
I ran across my old EPIC stuff yesterday -- the Knight Titans were in there and they had -- unusual -- rules to say the least.
The human knight titans had shields that were very similar to void shields. They had a 180' arc to the front and depending on the order that was given to them the special save it had would fluctuate.

My proposal --

450 pts
Stat line as a Warhound
Except : No Void Shields -- Instead it has a 5++ save from shots in its front 180' arc.
The weapon options are the same as the Warhound, except it comes stock with a Titan Class CCW -- Use the stats from the Reaver titan.
If the player goes with the two shooting weapons, then bump it back up to the Warhound stats and points through and through -- i.e. -- it gets the 2 Void shields back and losses the CCW and Invuln. save.

That seems a little light points wise to me,
What about same as above, but 525pt and one void shield in place of the knight shield?