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Torn Armor Status Update

Dear Backers,

This is not an easy update to send out, but I have always been open, honest and transparent with you all and recently the Torn World team has had to have some very unpleasant conversations regarding “Torn Armor.”

We have hit a major obstacle here – which I will detail below – and it is only fair to be open and clear on the parties involved. I will simply layout the facts as they have occurred and you can form your own conclusions. What I will say is that ultimately you put your faith and trust in me to ensure that this project was delivered, and in that I have failed you. So while the Torn Armor team has hit unforeseen circumstances and been subjected to unprofessional behavior and broken promises, ultimately I am responsible and please direct your frustrations squarely towards me.

A Recap:

As you will remember, immediately after the Kickstarter ended last year we contacted the China-based companies to finalize our quotes, and were then informed that even though our quotes were less than 90 days old the new production prices, across the board, jumped by 30%. This caused us to seek an alternative production company and during this time one of our backers came forward with a recommendation. This recommendation was given and genuinely provided to help the project, but in hindsight it set us on an unfortunate path.

The company recommended is here in the United State, and this – if anything – I viewed as being beneficial. What I did not know, and honestly had no way of knowing, was that they were about to head into some very troubling times. This company is Defiance Games.

Back in June/July of last year I had my first contact with Defiance and after talking to them for a short while, I felt that it was a good solution and I felt confident that everything was still on track. But the intervening time has been nothing but stalls, delays, staffing shuffles, and sideways movement. They brought on a new CEO shortly after I signed contracts with them, which I found to be alarming, but was told that it was to improve the running of the company. They acknowledged that they had been experiencing turbulent times and the new CEO was to help get things back on track; I was reassured, numerous times and by their upper management that all was on track and schedule.

The team I had recently been introduced to and communicated with soon left and a new team was brought onboard. Again I got to meet them and again I was reassured that the changes were for the best. We were still prepping miniatures for mold production, deadlines and timelines were re-affirmed as being “November,” and while I was uncomfortable with the constant switching of staff, I felt that the wheels were moving and shortly we’d start seeing masters roll off the 3d printers. When this did not happen as promised I started updates regarding delays, later delivery timeframes and so on. I simply need time to sort out what was actually happening and where I might be able to adjust as needed.

Now while I am a patient person and I can be understanding the constant delays and lack of action from Defiance made me think that this was more than a “changing of the guard, or a that new production schedule was being implemented.” I realized there was something seriously wrong.

With our initial deadlines past and the old year ending I put them under great pressure to get things moving. With this pressure we saw the hoplite. He was great and Defiance confirmed that they could work with the model.

I believed we had a light at the end of the tunnel. With constant pressure and micro management on my end I cautiously believed we could get the project on a track towards completion.

It was at this time that Defiance stated that they would not produce any masters until they had finished a batch of models. They then informed us that the file format we had provided them, their choice, wasn’t going to work. This new format was already a replacement of the original format they said wouldn’t work, which again was their choice. Soon after this they started talking about “going back to the models from last October” It was at this time I knew we were going into a downward spiral of excuses and finger pointing.

Ironically their chief responsibility was the creation of a usable, printable, castable 3d miniature models. Early on, they informed me they were unable to work with my artist/modeler and they in turn chose the artist/modeler they wanted to work with. The file format wasn’t going to work!

Clearly we have a serious problem.

Get Another Production Company?

Last Friday I concluded that Defiance was completely unable to fulfill our needs and that I made a mistake in choosing them. Being noble and generous I would say that they truly felt like they could handle it, but the reality of the project – in addition to their own projects – was too much. There may well be other reasons.

I formally asked for our money back less the approved and agreed charges and after a weekend of badgering they told me on Monday that “We do not have the available cash on hand to return these funds at this time” and “We are gearing up here for our own releases to get new product to market and improve our cash flow.”

The Problem

And herein lies the problem: Defiance have not been able to produce the miniatures, but they are also unable to return the funds. And the funds are somewhat substantial.

Currently, we are reviewing all legal options, but I have very little faith that we will simply get this money back.

Torn Armor is effectively dead in the water.

Where Do We Go From Here?

Clearly our options are considerably broadened if Defiance returns our funds: Reaper Miniatures offered to help out, but without these funds allocated to the miniatures being able to fulfill on the miniatures is an impossibility.

The money lost is crippling, but it wasn’t everything and we can put the remaining funds to good use. Currently we are discussing offering partial refunds, creating the game-only tier (rules, maps, cards, units, dice) or simply staying in a holding pattern until there is news where our funds are returned, but this last option could honestly be something that dragged on for years and we are not a fan of that route.

This situation simply sucks.We have put in a lot of our own personal money into this, we created a dream and you – our incredible backers – were the best that anyone could have ever asked for. We all passionately worked together for the Kickstarter and I earned some good friends because of it, so to now be reduced to this a year later is utterly crushing.

I fought off this moment as long as I could, but I would not send out an update like this without firmly believing that we just ran into a brick wall.

Tl:dr

In a nutshell we have been screwed by our supplier and are now not able to fulfill this Kickstarter project. We are discussing all options at the moment, but do consider the miniatures portion of this project dead.

~ Natalya & the Torn World Team

Well, while Defiance is obviously a major culprit, she is right in taking the blame herself... I did not back this campaign as I felt they had a great idea, but were too inexperienced in actually having models made- the only actual models shown were a few 3d prints during the campaign, and sculpts / renders... but no casts.

It is really a bummer and I hope that they are able to recoup the funds, but to have this long without word and then to suddenly find out they gave most of the money to Defiance is very irresponsible, I think.

A real shame :-/

I agree there is plenty of blame to go around :-/

Yes :-/

But this comment from a backer on the update page captures my initial reaction:

Darsc Zacal wrote:I am stunned that you went to Defiance and Tony Reidy given his history of taking money and giving nothing in return. It's widely known to anyone that follows miniature hobby news that he is not a person to be trusted and someone you will not be getting your money back from.
Most of the popular hobby forums will have a thread dedicated to his exploits of the past several years.
.
I am sorry but there was a lot of naivety in that decision to go to them. Anyone who thinks they'll get their money back from waiting should do a bit of googling about Tony Reidy and check out a few online forums for threads on the subject.
.
I cannot think of a worse decision that could have been made.

I feel bad for them, but this strikes me as a major case of sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.

Frakin douchebags.... Seriously, they need to end up in court. How many small companies and individuals does someone need to screw before they end up with civil or criminal charges?

Well, that's a shame. I thought Torn Armor had an interesting premise, too. I guess it's a good thing I didn't back the Kickstarter though.

Threads like this make me sad :( I wasn't a backer, but still, they had some nice sculpts.

maybe they should look into just getting their own 3D prints and metal figures, and putting out skirmish rules through wargame vault.

This is heartbreaking. Tony Reidy should be in jail by now.

Tis a shame - but I have to echo Darsc's comments.

How could someone "in the industry" not have heard about Defiance Games and their myriad problems?

I don't consider myself super connected - but just browsing Dakka/Warseer/Tabletop Gaming News I've known for years that they're shady.

I can't imagine a simple google search on them wouldn't bring up some of these issues.

aaaaand the victim has been blamed!


Seriously, though, this really sucks. She probably should've done some research on Defiance games, but regardless, hopefully this all catches up with this Reidy character sooner or later and he ends up in prison.

 RatBot wrote:
aaaaand the victim has been blamed!

She's not the one who is going to be out of pocket over this. If you're going to be investing other people's money, you should do your due diligence.

Yeah, I know, just had to work the Dakka meme in there somehow.

I seriously don't understand how she could make this mistake. I don't really keep up with Defiance games at all, can't even remember what minis they supposedly make, but I'm still somehow aware that they're crooks.

At the end of the day, she will have lost quite a lot as well. Including, quite possibly, the ability to work in this industry again. It's a shame. Nobody deserves to have an idea they've clearly spent a lot of time on become a byword for fraud and failure. Except Tony Reidy, it seems.

She did mention Reaper offering to step in and help out.

Hope all pans out for them. A real shame these folks had to get taken by Defiance.

The company name smacks of arrogance - "Defiance"

We DEFY you to get either a finished product or your money back.

We DEFY you to take us through the legal system - oh you can't, we have all your money. Sucks to be you!

How are they still in business?!

[MOD EDIT - Inapproriate. Comments removed. - Alpharius]

This crap makes me so glad that I was too broke to touch DG's kickstarter

Yeah there is enough blame to go around

She should have done her own research on Defiance Games history and she should have had her contract better worded and have at fault clauses.
Her lawyer should have had better breakout clauses in the contract as it seem all the fault of wanting to break the contract are caused by DG not her.

Defiance should not be the dicks that they are and should not be involved in what imho is theft by fraud

I am not a lawyer but one particular person needs, desperately needs to have a unfriendly meeting with several mobsters holding high quality baseball bats.

Just sayin.

Did she already ask Daniel Mandelbaum for help?

Yes, she should have checked the credentials closer, but if she has contracts and terms then there should be a reasonable expectation from the company. Also I'm intrigued at the fact that she's looking at doing a refund to backers . Isn't the point of a kickstarter that your investing into a product, and you MIGHT get something if everything pans out in the end, but there's no certainty. I'd be impressed if she gets this going, but not really sure I'd buy into it if offered again.

 Theophony wrote:
Yes, she should have checked the credentials closer, but if she has contracts and terms then there should be a reasonable expectation from the company.

Even if Defiance had held up their end of the bargain, her backers would be left with a bunch of miscast restic crap. I don't care for the concepts, but there is no way she could reasonably have concluded that Defiance was capable of doing justice to her designs.

Also I'm intrigued at the fact that she's looking at doing a refund to backers . Isn't the point of a kickstarter that your investing into a product, and you MIGHT get something if everything pans out in the end, but there's no certainty.

No. The point of Kickstarter is what happens when things go right: a project manager obtaining the capital they need to complete their project without a banker acting as gatekeeper.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
She did mention Reaper offering to step in and help out.

Hope all pans out for them. A real shame these folks had to get taken by Defiance.

I wouldn't be surprised if Reaper offered to loan/front the money and then have her pay it back by a % of gross sales.

They raised around $67K.

I wonder how much they sent over to Defiance?

What a sad story. Not doing your homework on a company strikes again.

Sad

This was posted on DG FB page a few minutes ago.
https://www.facebook.com/DefianceGames?hc_location=timeline#!/DefianceGames/posts/699525006746220?stream_ref=10

An open letter to Alyssa Faden of Torn Armor.

Alyssa,

Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.

Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.

This is your project -- the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.

After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the 'changing of the guard' or the 'turbulent times' changes that.

You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.

I am really disappointed in you.

John Morse

People have already started to ask them why not refund the money.

As they are in the US it opens up a lot of options, legally speaking. I'd start by putting a mechanical lean on the company. They will legally be barred from selling or buying any property, equipment, or major stock until they have repaid the money. If they violate this the repercussions would be.....interesting, to say the least. There was a company that once did something similar to a client. The client ended up with a sheriff's deputy and a couple moving trucks at the companies front door. They had two choices: cut a check EMMIDIATELY or we start taking physical assets (computers, desks, chairs, tables, office supplies, ect.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ProtoClone wrote:
This was posted on DG FB page a few minutes ago.
https://www.facebook.com/DefianceGames?hc_location=timeline#!/DefianceGames/posts/699525006746220?stream_ref=10

An open letter to Alyssa Faden of Torn Armor.

Alyssa,

Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.

Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.

This is your project -- the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.

After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the 'changing of the guard' or the 'turbulent times' changes that.

You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.

I am really disappointed in you.

John Morse

People have already started to ask them why not refund the money.

Odd, I've seen several 20mm models in 5 or so pieces.

Yeah, 20mm multipart isn't really any more difficult then 28mm; speaking as someone who casts resin almost daily.

 RatBot wrote:
Yeah, I know, just had to work the Dakka meme in there somehow.

In this case it's 100% true as Defiance's "open letter" is a prime example of victim blaming. "It's your fault you gave us your trust. I'm disappointed in you."

 cuda1179 wrote:
As they are in the US it opens up a lot of options, legally speaking. I'd start by putting a mechanical lean on the company. They will legally be barred from selling or buying any property, equipment, or major stock until they have repaid the money. If they violate this the repercussions would be.....interesting, to say the least. There was a company that once did something similar to a client. The client ended up with a sheriff's deputy and a couple moving trucks at the companies front door. They had two choices: cut a check EMMIDIATELY or we start taking physical assets (computers, desks, chairs, tables, office supplies, ect.)

Agreed, it's in the US and they should be able to take some sort of action.

After that letter from Defiance... wow. I hope they burn.

My 6mm GD special multi part space marine wants a word with John Morse.

And some of my 15mm figures - not 5 parts - but still - they could have more components.

Blaming the victim in fine style.