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Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Designer Notes:

Ok so before you read on this is some rules I spent the last hour typing. So bear with the possibly shoddy grammar and very incomplete rules. But before I continue I want to know if im on the right track to something interesting. The main points to look at are everything. The goal of the game is to be adaptive for any WW1 to modern game systems but I will only put in the effort if people think its worth doing. My friends and I have 1/72 scale models so will be cool to use.

The game is based on radius and increments. Squads are near non existent and its intended to be played with fewer models on large dense battle fields but it can work for large ones if you are good at keeping track. Once the main rules are good enough ill work on the nation rules and options options. But thats not to worry about if you are reading this, just the main basic set of rules is all that matters now.

So shoot me down in flames, praise me, give advice just fire away!

Also if this is the wrong thread kick me to another. Im not sure what this qualifies as thread wise.

So beware, I just saw my old 1/72 models from when I was younger and thought I could use them for something. This may be that something...

Spoiler:
Movement
Movement for the standard infantry is 4cm. this is only modified if the model has a special rule that adds or takes away from this amount.
A model may opt to sprint at the expense of shooting in which case movement becomes 8cm.
Moving through cover see the moving through cover chart.
Any model that moves without the move and shoot rule on their gun suffers a -1 penalty.

Levels of training
Levels of training show how effective the models are either through sheer motivation or superior training. In either case each level of training has a dice value which is the base value needed to do anything.

Veteran: 3+
Regular: 4+
Conscript: 5+

Shooting
In order to shoot, allocate the area you are shooting at within line of site and who will be shooting at it. To allocate an area put a 13cm diameter circle over the target area. Using the skill of the firing troops and the modifiers below roll to see who hits. Any models that are hit are removed from the front of the radius.
Every 50cm -1 to hit for every 50cm. scopes add 15cm to this distance and for every story of building or a hill etc. add a further 15 cm to this distance. So for example a soldier with a scope on a two story building will -1 to hit every 95cm.
For every piece of cover that blocks line of site -1 to hit.
If there is a piece of cover that has a cover value i.e. 5 and the weapons penetration value is less than the cover value then -1 to hit and for each value under your penetration is from the cover. So a weapon with penetration value of 3 firing through terrain with cover value of 5 will be at a minus 3 to hit. This adds to the original -1 for being in cover.
If your models moved and their weapons don’t have the shoot on the run special rule add a minus 1
If the target is out in the open with no obstructions then add a +1
A unit pinned in the open is at a further +1 to hit
If the target sprints it is a minus 1 to hit them.
You may choose who fires where and whether to shoot or not. Anyone can shoot at separate targets or areas.


Moral
Each officer has a command radius. Whenever a group under an enemy radius attack or a unit getting shot at takes 25% casualties or more in one turn then they need to take a test. See the chart below for the rolls.
Veteran 4+
Regular 5+
Conscript 4+
Each officer can add a bonus to this roll depending on his level of command. For example if his level of command is 1 then regulars pass on a 4+.
If the roll is failed the affected models must roll a further D3 on the chart below:
1: Shock: the unit runs directly backward at full movement on his movement phase and can do nothing else that turn until he passes a moral check or cannot be shot at by any enemy unit.
2: Stunned: pinned directly where they stand and can only do pinned actions on their next turn. In order to get moving they must either pass a moral test or be unable to be shot at by the enemy.
3:Instinct: on their turn they must sprint directly into or behind the nearest piece of cover that protects them from the enemy and once they are in cover they are immediately pinned and then follow the same rules for above.

Propelled weapons
Any weapon that has this rule in their weapon profile means that as a plus their weapon has to end up somewhere however it can scatter. If the firer of such a weapon fails his shooting test then the weapon scatters over their initial target or in front it may never hit the target it aimed for. It cannot scatter through terrain if terrain would stop the ‘Guns line of site” then the weapon explodes on that piece of cover.

Ordinance weapons
Same rules as above however they always hit where they land even if it hits the initial target. They must be able to see their targets still unless in radio contact with a friendly who is in view of the target. Ordinance weapons suffer no range penalties.

Blasts

Any weapon with a blast will have an inner and outer blast. The inner blast kills anything under it instantly, the outer blast will kill on a 4+

Vehicles
Vehicles have a movement that is stated in their profile. Each 90degree pivot quarters the tanks movement. Turrets must aim at the target it shoots.
Each tank will have hull points. Reduce the hull point each time it is damaged. If it explodes then discard all hull points. Once a vehicle has lost its hull points it has perished.

Anti-Tank weapons
Only weapons with the major or minor anti-tank rule may attempt to damage tanks.
If the weapon hits an enemy with an armour value then roll on the following chart

1. Destroy a randomly selected secondary weapon
2. Damage tracks (halve movement)
3. Turret damaged (permanent -1 to hit)
4. Damaged sites (range is reduced to -1 per 50cm and suffers a -1 to hit)
5. Tracks destroyed (cannot move)
6. Turret locked (can only shoot in the direction the turret was last pointing in)
7. Shocked (tank cannot act for a turn)
8. Main weapon destroyed
9. Results 5,7,8,3,4,6
10. Dead
11. Dead
12. Dead (1d6 +3cm worth of shrapnel and fuel detonation damage that kills any enemy model on a 4+)

However for each level below or over the armour level of the weapons penetration add to the chart (or deduct) for example a penetration of 2 vs. armour of 8 would reduce the roll of the damage by 6. Making the result of 12 down to a 6.
Minor anti-tank weapon chart

1. Shocked the tank
2. Damage sites
3. Damage tracks
4. Turret damaged
5. Destroy a randomly selected secondary weapon
6. Penetration. Fragments from the shot kill the crew inside.
Each minor anti-tank weapon has an effective range. For every 20cm above the range of effectiveness -1 to the result.

Moving through terrain infantry
Marsh/swamp = 4cm movement only and enemy gets a plus 1 bonus to hit

Rubble = 4cm movement enemy gets – 1 to hit

Buildings = any door or window is an entrance or firing port or holes

River/water = first decide if the water is deep enough for wading or swimming. Wading movement is 4cm only with the enemy getting plus 1 to hit. Cannot be pinned in wading water. Swimming movement is 2cm enemy getting plus 2 to hit. Must carry on swimming cannot stop. If it is shallow treat it as normal ground.

Hedge/wall = Must climb the wall. Unless the hedge is longer than 4cm deep you must spend a whole turn to get over/through it.

Dense foliage = enemy has -1 to hit or -2 to hit if you remained still that turn. Movement only reduced to 4cm.

Vertical feature = only able to climb 4cm however for each model climbing roll a d6, on a 6+ that model is out of action.

Trench = enemy has -2 to hit you however movement is not affected. Enemies cannot cross a trench with enemy models in it.

Barbed wire = units count as pinned for one turn before crossing barbed wire.

Snipers
Snipers may start in any terrain feature anywhere on the map. They may only get shot at if the sniper fired at a unit and failed to pin it. If they failed to pin a unit the sniper is now visible until he finds a new piece of cover. Snipers that didn’t move forces non enemy snipers to -1 off their roll. They always cause a pinning check even if they missed.

Crewed weapons
Before they move you must select if you want to spend one turn packing or one turn setting up. If you choose to spend one turn packing then you may shoot when you set up. If you choose to spend a turn unpacking you may move instantly initially. This is to stop these guns taking at least 3 turns to fire after moving.
Artillery must spend a full turn packing the gun before they move. During this time the models that are moving the artillery must be touching the piece. If a vehicle is towing it then it moves at the vehicles movement, or the horses towing movement or the infantry moving it at 4cm. Then once you have finished moving spend another turn setting up (if applicable).
Weapons with the rapid redeployment rule may not move and shoot however doesn’t have to set up or pack up its gun.

Terrain cover values
These only affect units that are counted as being in cover behind or in the terrain listed below. Some weapons ignore cover values in which case it is treated as normal terrain.
Wood = 1
Bushes = 0
Trees = 0
Sand bags = 4
Building = 3
Fortified building = 4
Walls = 2
Fortified walls = 3
Bunker = 10

Aircraft
Aircraft have a sub phase at the end of each players turn. Player 1 does aircraft at the end of his turn then player 2 does his aircraft at the end of his turn.
Aircraft always start off table. Before the game you must for each aircraft select a turn in which it is intended to arrive. On the turn before it arrives roll a d6. On a 5+ it arrives. On the turn it is intended to arrive on a 3+ it arrives. On the turn after it is on a 5+ it arrives. After that the aircraft may not roll again for it has not arrived for various reasons.
Once it arrives mark its point of entry and point of exit. It must enter from your side of the table and exit on any table edge. It then moves its full distance following the line made. It has limited amount of shots, so select for bomb weapons any unit the craft passes over to be the target using the ordinance rule. For rocket weapons use the propelled weapons rule. Bullets follow normal shooting rules. Each weapon may fire once. So it must shoot its rockets at one target but not two. It may fire all weapons at one target. It continues its path until it leaves the board.

If the plane leaves the board on the same turn it arrives it still can hit any unit it passes. Once it is gone it is gone. Any AA weapon may shoot the aircraft on the player using the aircrafts turn, provided it can see the plan at any point of its flight and is in range, however it cannot shoot on the next turn.

If the opposing player has interceptor or fighter aircraft it can choose to intercept the aircraft on a D6 roll equal or higher than the roll of the other player’s aircraft. If successful the player chooses an entry on his bored an exit that crosses the path of the target aircraft and proceeds to shoot at it like normal. Fighters and interceptors can choose to come onto the board like normal and target ground targets like normal. If the fighter shoots the target aircraft down then it may not attack anything beyond the point it was destroyed.

Dive bombers

Dive bombers roll to arrive like normal except they choose their entry on the board directly above their target then drop their payload with perfect accuracy which forces a moral check with -1 penalty to the target. Once they enter onto the board they then exit like normal.

Tail gunners are used for defence against enemy aircraft and fire at the opposing aircraft within its firing range at the same time they are shot at by the opposing plane.

Plane Damage Chart
Shot by machine guns.
For each shot that hits roll a D6. On a 6+ the aircraft suffers a point of damage. Once an aircraft runs out of damage points it is destroyed.

Shot by Cannon
Same as above but a 4+ and each shot does 2 points of damage

Shot at by Flak
Flak gets a + 2 to hit the aircraft and has the same stats as a cannon.

Unarmoured Vehicles
Unarmoured vehicles have no armour value but instead are vulnerable to attack by even the smallest arms fire. They follow the same rules as aircraft with points of damage and crew. If the crew or the vehicle damage points are depleted the vehicle is out of action.

Major anti-tank guns, if hit destroy instantly.

Minor anti-tank guns do d3 points of damage.

Machine guns damage the vehicle on a roll of 4+ and kill a passenger on 6+

Small arms kill a passenger on a 6+

Ordinance weapons do d3 points of damage and rolls a d6 for each crew if in the outer blast and on each 5+ 1 is dead. Any models under the inner blast are dead including the vehicle.

Flame weapons instantly kill the crew.



Paratroopers
Paratroopers must set up before the game before everyone has set up forces. If both players have paratroopers roll to see who drops first. Choose the area for each group. Roll the scatter for the plane of 4d6 that becomes the new landing zone. Roll 3d6 on the scatter, infantry must be placed under a 20cm circle no more or less than 2cm from each other. Any models landing on a building or in a tree are removed.

Glider Airborne
Glider Forces must set up before the game before everyone has set up forces. If both players have Glider Forces roll to see who drops first. Each glider selects a landing zone. The glider must pass a skill test or scatter 4d6. If the test fails the scatter result becomes the landing zone. Roll 5d6, this is the length forward the glider moves before stopping from the landing zone, if the wings of the plane touch any tree or building or other terrain feature then for every paratrooper roll a d6. On a 6+ a paratrooper has died, for every terrain piece that hits it the add 1 to the roll. For example 3 pieces of terrain touch the wings making every soldier die on a 3+. If the gliders centre hits a terrain feature the glider and its troops are killed.

Night Fighting
Units can only fire at 50cm. in order to fire beyond this range the target has to have fired. However if the target that fired moved in their next turn you must wait for them to fire again before targeting them. Once you target an enemy its -2 for range penalties every 50cm.
Aircraft cannot be used at night. Only airborne infantry can be deployed.

Melee
To get into melee you merely have to get into combat with the enemy. Any defensive weapons may fire before combat starts. If defensive fire claims 50% of the enemy squad it must take a moral test. Once in combat everyone fighting takes a skill test. For each success an enemy model has fallen, the side that inflicts the most casualties wins that round. Each time a round is won it moves the enemy unit back 4cm and your unit advances 4cm in contact with the enemy. This continues until either one side is dead or one side wins 3 rounds in a row. If a unit wins 3 rounds in a row the loosing unit must run to the nearest cover. The winning unit may choose to make a move or fire at the fleeing unit.
Firing into a melee. When firing into a melee fire as normal, any misses are then re rolled, any of those misses that pass the next roll are taken against your own models. These contribute towards the rounds casualties.
Attacks in melee are done at the same time.
If a unit willingly flees melee then the other player gets to fire and move. Melee counts as having had moved.

Jamming
Some guns will have a jamming Number. Every time you fire a weapon with the jamming rule you must pass the test by getting the number needed on a d6, the number needed is in the profile. If the gun jams it cannot fire that turn.

Horses
Horses have a tow movement of 8cm and a normal movement of 16cm.

Occupying buildings
Buildings can be stronghold for hundreds of soldiers making any opening into a firing point. For each window 2 models are able to shoot including doors and any other opening. But they take double its from grenades. They also die if a flame thrower successfully makes an attack.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/15 00:27:47


 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Its not too bad, and as a fairly comprehensive rules set. I take it that this is for WW2?
Can we assume army lists soon?

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Wow really?

Cheers dude.

And yes this set of rules is for ww2, but its made with the idea of making it usable for other time periods later on. Yes as soon as I get back on to these and make sure everything works. The tank system may be a bit shaky but I could make a basic mini army lists just as a test army sort of thing.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





It's Ordnance, not Ordinance. The former is explosive, the latter is a law.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Awesome cheers dude. As I said I had just wrote it and put it up as a draft so stuff like this is useful. I will change it on my master copy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/14 22:02:26


 
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Looks solid enough as an excuse to use the hordes of airfix minis I'm sure a lot of us have. I've just given them a quick glance over so may have missed it, but in the intro you refer to squad mechanics being non-existent, but you then talk about squads and percentages in the morale and assault rules (which I really like, the idea of moving back and forth is neat). I think the game would work with squads in groups of 5-10 guys acting as 1, but I wonder what you had in mind.

Some general suggestions:
Add an Aim action- I'd say sprinting gives -1 to hit, not moving gives +1, moving normally gives no bonus. If we're talking anything post 1900, most weapons can be fired on the move with a certain degree of effectiveness. It also opens up more tactical choice in movement.

I've not read the aircraft/vehicles rules in full, but if you're going for anything below a platoon-scale game I really wouldn't include anything beyond transports and armoured cars at a push, at least at first. Thinking realistically, something like a Panzer could end up dominating a game at this sort of scale if the other side had no specialised support options. Tanks are cool, but I'm not sure they'd work too well at this level. Same with aircraft, although I could see aircraft being a separate side-game, with the winner each round being able to choose to make a strafing/bombing run having defeated the aerial opponent.

Good start, though, I'll be following this.

 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

 Paradigm wrote:
Looks solid enough as an excuse to use the hordes of airfix minis I'm sure a lot of us have. I've just given them a quick glance over so may have missed it, but in the intro you refer to squad mechanics being non-existent, but you then talk about squads and percentages in the morale and assault rules (which I really like, the idea of moving back and forth is neat). I think the game would work with squads in groups of 5-10 guys acting as 1, but I wonder what you had in mind.

Some general suggestions:
Add an Aim action- I'd say sprinting gives -1 to hit, not moving gives +1, moving normally gives no bonus. If we're talking anything post 1900, most weapons can be fired on the move with a certain degree of effectiveness. It also opens up more tactical choice in movement.

I've not read the aircraft/vehicles rules in full, but if you're going for anything below a platoon-scale game I really wouldn't include anything beyond transports and armoured cars at a push, at least at first. Thinking realistically, something like a Panzer could end up dominating a game at this sort of scale if the other side had no specialised support options. Tanks are cool, but I'm not sure they'd work too well at this level. Same with aircraft, although I could see aircraft being a separate side-game, with the winner each round being able to choose to make a strafing/bombing run having defeated the aerial opponent.

Good start, though, I'll be following this.


For the first part, yes I have yet to work out how things such as pinning will work etc. But I what I had in mind was every model is seperate until they come under a certain area. For example anyone under the "fire zone" will count as a squad for the purposes of being shot at, or an assault is simply anyone involved in the assault.

So If i had 20 men and decided to charge will all but the Machine gunner team then the charging men get turned into a "squad" and any enemy men in combat get "tunred into a squad" along with anyone within a radius kind of thing. But I will play test it when tomorrow maybe and see if I can make that aspect make more sense.

For the move and shoot options the reason is because from my test I did earlier infantry already have a hard time hitting the enemy. I thought it better to simplify down a tiny bit just for the sake of smoother player. But i will certainly try it our with your scenario.

As for the add ons, I kinda hoped to have a main rules section which will include the "recommended" way to play the game, then have an options section for rules to create your own scenarios using whatever models you have. So if some guy wants to recreate a battle or do an ambush against a tank column with his friend at least the option is there. So its a limited rules set as recommended but if you want to use extras they are at least there to use.


So tonight I might do a small fight with 10 rifle men per side?

One question for those watching, so far the game is I go, you go. How would you, using the rules that have been drafted as of now, turn it into more of a not i go you go? If thats even something to consider.

Thanks for the help.
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Well, i like this, especially as i have a small Panzer Platoon built up... And an Allied armoured Platoon

I do have to say that i like your leadership ides as well, but i feel there should be modifiers for things like not having support, taking heavy casualties and for Infantry facing armour without appropiate weapons.

I also like the sound of these Ordinance guns.... Hitting the enemy with paper work is a sure fire way of destroying their moral


Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Haha soon it will escalate to shells and mortars dont worry too much

Ok so leadership modifiers would be a good idea. Perhaps things like being outnumbered or tanks having a fear factor radius etc?

And im glad its on the right track at least. Im getting more into it now.
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Since you asked, some more suggestions regarding leadership and alternative activation systems, and also how I'd go about organising squads:

Leadership:
- All infantry have leadership stats, tested against on a 2d6.
Conscripts: 9
Regular: 7
Veterans: 5

When it is called on to test morale, roll a 2d6, if the score is higher than the value (after modifiers) then they pass, lower then they fail, and if equal then possibly a reduced level of whatever the penalty was (such as pinned for 1 rounds rather than falling back)

Modifiers:
The target has taken 25% casualties from a single action: -1
The target has been forced to take more than 1 morale test this turn: -1 (not cumulative)
The target has been hit by artillery, sniper or mortar fire: -1
There is an enemy unit within 4cm of the target: -1

The target still has a squad leader alive: +1
The target is in cover: +1
The target is within 4cm of another friendly unit: +1

So if a unit of 10 conscripts with a sergeant is fired at by riflemen, and takes 4 casualties, they test on 9 with a -1 from the casualties and +1 for the sergeant, cancelling to +/-0.

If the same unit is then fired on by a mortar and takes 1 casualty, they test on 9 with +1 for the Sergeant, -1 for being hit by the mortar and -1 for having already tested, for a total of -1. As such, this gives a benefit to focusing fire (more realistic than the same test being repeated) and also means you have to think about positioning, with proximity and cover giving modifiers. There's also plenty of scope to add more modifiers for other things, like negatives for attacks from aircraft or flanking ect.

The result of the test determines the result:

Being shot at:
Pass: no effect
Fail: unit retreats d6 cm, and must test again next turn or continue fleeing
Equal: the unit may not act next turn, but does not need to test to act the turn after.
1,1: The unit is destroyed, as its members are either gunned down or flee.

Losing an assault:
Pass: the unit may move up to 4cm, so long as it brings them no closer to an enemy unit, and may now act normally
Fail: the unit is destroyed, as the members are either killed or flee the battlefield.
Equal: no effect, fight another round of combat.



Activation:
For a unit to activate, it must receive orders or react.

Receiving orders:
To receive orders, the unit must take a test.
1st unit: 3+
2nd unit: 4+
subesquent units: 5+

If the test is passed, the unit acts as normal, and may take a move, sprint, fire or assault action. If the test is failed, activation passes to the opponent who uses the same procedure. A unit can only attempt to receive orders once per turn, so if it fails, it may only react. At any point, the player may pass activation over to his opponent.

Reacting:
A unit can elect to react to an enemy action taken against it. To react, the enemy may first take the action they intended, and then the reacting unit can act. For a reaction to be successful, a 4+ test is used.

Reactions can be any of the following , depending on the opposing action:
After a unit has been shot at, it may attempt the following:

Return fire: the unit makes a shooting attack at the unit that fired on it, with all the normal modifiers for range and movement.
Take cover: the unit may move 4cm towards the nearest piece of cover.

After a unit has been assaulted, it may attempt the following:

Defensive fire: all eligible weapons are fired at the assaulting unit with a -1 modifier
Counter-assault: the unit makes a close combat action with any eligible models (note that this would mean changing your rules slightly: rather than melee attacks happening simultaneously, make them an action like shooting or moving. ie. only one side attacks per action, and the other then attacks as their action)
Fall back: the unit may voluntarily move 4cm away from the enemy unit, as per passing a combat morale test.

Once a unit has attempted to react, it may not make any other action this turn, and the opponent continues activating units as normal.

I think this action/reaction mechanism works as it breaks up the igougo system, and gives both players a chance to be involved (through reactions). Reactions are more limited and less reliable than orders, but could end up saving a unit that would otherwise be destroyed or damaged before activating. Again, this adds an element of realism, as units can act on initiative and situationally when under threat.



Squads

Squads consist of a number of models that, for game purposes, act as a single entity. Squads typically number between 5 and 15 models.

Squads will take casualties when fired on with the model closest to the attacking unit being removed first. A squad is destroyed when it loses all models, flees of the board, or rolls the relevant result on a leadership test.

Squads must all fire at/assault the same target, with the following exception: any weapon designated as specialist (x) may fire at unit type (x) whenever it is possible to do so. For example, a squad of German riflemen with a Panzerschreck (specialist: Tank/vehicle) can fire at an infantry unit, and if a vehicle is in range and LOS, the Panzerschreck may fire at that instead. Similarly, in a squad including a Sniper Rifle (specialist: infantry/leader), the Sniper Rifle could fire at any eligible infantry/leader unit in range.

I think this would speed up gameplay a lot, rather than having models that are sometimes squad members and sometimes not. It also makes leadership and attacks easier.

Hope that's of some help. I may well try out these rules later.

 
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

OP, I hope you don't think I'm jumping the gun or stealing your thunder, but I've thrown together a first draft of a ruleset based mostly on what I've suggested here and some other stuff I came up with earlier (As well as a couple of your suggestions). I've tried to keep it basic and simple, and also fairly original, but the main focus is on making it a little modular. I think, with a few tweaks here and there, you could use this ruleset for anything from WW1 to the Gulf War. Some options lend themselves to certain periods (no one uses flamethrowers in 21st Century warfare) but on the whole I think it's fairly generic.

Anyone please feel free to playtest this and of course I welcome any kind of feedback, criticism or comments. I don't know how balanced it is (off to playtest in a moment) so that's probably my primary concern, along with how well the core mechanics work. Thanks in advance for any feedback, and again, OP, thanks for the inspiration and I hope this doesn't put you off working on your own rules. I just figured that rather than start a new thread on the same topic, I might as well post here.
 Filename Toy Soldiers- Rules for 1-72 scale Combat.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description Second Draft
 File size 377 Kbytes

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/03/15 22:11:38


 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Go ahead dude, this is how great rule sets are made!

The idea behind mine was to create a bit more realism at the expense of simplicity (hence why small games are recommended). For example I want the ability to send 1 rifle men here and 3 riflemen there and so on, just an attempt to make complete freedom in what and how you command. But I will read yours now.

Cheers man


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your one definitely caters to larger games thats for sure.

As for the periods you mentioned, as long as the main rule book has everything than all it needs is some minor nation rules to go from there.

But nice rule set, ill playtest and try salvage mine though as I feel like I can make it work somehow.

Cheers

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/15 22:30:24


 
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Cheers for taking the time to read it. I see what you mean about your rules going for realism where mine go for abstraction. In all honesty, your rules fit that style far better than mine, I was going for abstraction and simplicity just to give us something to do with all these toy soldiers. I'm sure yours will work for what you want it to, now that I've seen we were kind of working towards different things yours does make a lot more sense. Best of luck, and you should easily be able to get yours up and running.

I've given mine a quick test (Russians Vs Germans, on the streets of Cardboardgrad), and got a few observations:

It plays quite fast, as there's only ever a single round of dice rolling for anything apart from vehicles, there's no endless amounts of roll to hit/wound/save kind of things. For someone used to 40k, it almost feels too fast, but that could be just because it's outside what I normally have to do.

I think I need to put quite a big increase on some weapon ranges, as in the test game, there was a lot of milling around for position and then a couple of short firefights before it was all over (the Russians lost). If I increase the ranges a little, but throw in a negative modifier for firing at long range, there should be a little more action.

I'm not yet sure if I need to alter the differences between Conscripts, Regulars and Veterans. On one hand, a unit of 10 vets with Machine Guns will probably murder anything not in heavy cover, but also costs about twice as much as a similarly armed conscript squad. More playtests will hopefully answer the question.

I don't know whether I've made the vehicle damage rules too soft on the tanks. On one hand, I don't want it to be possible for a rifleman to hurt a tank, barring a stupidly lucky shot, but on the other I don't want to have tanks dominating the battle. Maybe some more AP guns might fix it.

One thing that really stood out was the lack of impact morale had, as units tended to either be entirely destroyed as mentioned above. Anyone got any ideas (rules-wise or just situations) I could use to make morale a little more important? I fear if I push it too far the other way, it'll be a game of men hiding round corners and nothing happening.

It's clear there's a long, long way to go with these rules, but I do quite like them based on first impressions. I think games will sit best in the 750-1000 point ranges, when you can throw in a couple of tanks and 6+ infantry units per side. I'm off for another playtest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/15 22:53:32


 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Hmmm, in my playtests my men hardly hit anything. It took 3 rounds of shooting for 1 team to loose. At long range vets dominated because they could shoot further. My tanks are very powerful too. Tank battles took a while between just two tanks and it ended up being a battle of trying to score hits.

I was thinking of making tanks very vulnerable to ambush by infantry. Such as sticking mines under the tank or blowing off the tracks and destroying the gun and so on. That way tanks need to be protected rather than only having tanks running around sort of thing.
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Yeah, I found tank vs Tank took a while as well, there were about 5 turns of a T-34 trading shots with a Tiger while the infantry cleaned up the rest of the board.

I like the idea of making them the vulnerable to infantry assaults, the only issue being that it would require quite a bit of manoeuvring from the infantry as otherwise the tank would just Ram them out of the way. Then again, as I've limited tank turning, it might open up some interesting possibilities.

In terms of mechanics for it, the easiest way would be to give infantry a huge bonus of the vehicle damage chart, maybe something like +1AP per model in the squad, as they swarm over it, strap on grenades and poke bayonets through holes. It would make the Tank very vulnerable, but given the movement there is always the option for the tank to escape if he sees it coming. I'll give it a shot.

 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Maybe have weapons designed to stun tanks or weapons with a tank stun rule (not powerful enough to harm a tank but strong enough to stun the crew) then that can give infantry a small chance to get in and hurt it.
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Completed another draft, and added the following:

- Increase on many weapon ranges, along with a negative shooting modifier for shooting at half range.
- Infantry are now lethal to tanks, hitting with a single attack that has AP equal to the number of models in the squad.
- Rules for smoke grenades, sappers,
- Rules for Tank Destroyers, such as the Jagdpanzer. Slow and cumbersome, but deadly to vehicles.

Now to try out a larger game, and dabble with some simple aircraft rules.


 Filename Toy Soldiers- Rules for 1-72 scale Combat.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description Third Draft
 File size 385 Kbytes


 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

making good head way. Good work. I got some extra time off this week hopefully so ill try knuckle down myself.
   
Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

What about tank destroyers that were fast, nimble and deadly?


Though im more intrigued in the war that featured tanks knocked out by bayonets poked in holes...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/17 00:32:02


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant






Lincolnshire

Had a look through them, got just a few comments.

I would really have another look at the whole veterans being that much better especially in shooting. Generally i would recommend that vetrancy or lack of (conscripts) should only really make a big difference when it comes to moral, a general will to fight.

After all the SS may have a reputation for being elite, they often fought hard and so might deserve, but there is not really much of a rationale to say that every SS soldier was a better shot then his werchmarch counterpart. Same could be said about 101st airborne, they gained a reputation as being hard men, they held on in the Bulge but it had more to do with there morale then a superior ability in terms of shooting etc.

Also look at drafted Hitler Youth, in morale terms you might want to make indoctrinated troops like that veterans in terms of a morale but it would be a bit of a stretch to imagine them as skilled in combat as the very best troops.

Also the idea of tanks ramming infantry just seems silly to me, tanks make take the chance to overrun an anti tank gun. But it would be a brave commander that made the strategic decision to drive right into infantry that in theory could be armed with all sorts of possible anti tank weapons. I would just take this out.

Also i would split Battle tank into more categories, at the very least light / medium / heavy. Adjusting speed armor etc for each one, after all the idea that a king tiger can fly around at the same speed and be matched by a T-34 again just seems silly.

Would also suggest that a MG42 having the same stats as a Bren Gun might be a little to abstract

Also echo what Big P said

What about tank destroyers that were fast, nimble and deadly?


Though im more intrigued in the war that featured tanks knocked out by bayonets poked in holes...
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

 Salad_Fingers wrote:
Had a look through them, got just a few comments.

I would really have another look at the whole veterans being that much better especially in shooting. Generally i would recommend that vetrancy or lack of (conscripts) should only really make a big difference when it comes to moral, a general will to fight.

After all the SS may have a reputation for being elite, they often fought hard and so might deserve, but there is not really much of a rationale to say that every SS soldier was a better shot then his werchmarch counterpart. Same could be said about 101st airborne, they gained a reputation as being hard men, they held on in the Bulge but it had more to do with there morale then a superior ability in terms of shooting etc.

Also look at drafted Hitler Youth, in morale terms you might want to make indoctrinated troops like that veterans in terms of a morale but it would be a bit of a stretch to imagine them as skilled in combat as the very best troops.

The reason I put this in is I want players to have the option of having a variety of troops, without having to write out a dozen army lists (With the periods I want this to cover, I'd otherwise be looking at a dozen versions of a dozen armies). I suppose I would say that Veteran as far as these rules are concerned means 'better at fighting', rather than more experienced or a particular regiment. I wanted some way of differentiating between good, medium and bad units to prevent a situation where you get two armies of identical units lining up. It's an abstraction, but one that (as a mechanic) works rather well. It may not be the most accurate, but it does open up more gameplay options.

One thing I am considering is swapping this D6 system to a D10 system, which would make having less severe increments in shooting/fighting. The problem is, I have no D10s (nor do most, I'd wager) and I want to keep this simple.

Also the idea of tanks ramming infantry just seems silly to me, tanks make take the chance to overrun an anti tank gun. But it would be a brave commander that made the strategic decision to drive right into infantry that in theory could be armed with all sorts of possible anti tank weapons. I would just take this out.

I see your point. It was a kind of Rule of Cool thing, and there are risks associated, but I wanted to keep an option for those who wanted it. Again, accuracy has taken second place to mechanics. In game it's worked quite nicely, especially when you have a tank with no weapons left.


Also i would split Battle tank into more categories, at the very least light / medium / heavy. Adjusting speed armor etc for each one, after all the idea that a king tiger can fly around at the same speed and be matched by a T-34 again just seems silly.

This is definitely going to happen, the one-size-fits-all was just put in so I could test vehicle rules. I'll certainly expand on this.

Would also suggest that a MG42 having the same stats as a Bren Gun might be a little to abstract
Again, it's for simplicity, and there's plenty of scope to expand. Even Light and Heavy classifications would do the trick, I think.

Also echo what Big P said

What about tank destroyers that were fast, nimble and deadly?

Again, something I can look at, these early rules simply have enough options for the models I have handy. The entire vehicle options list will be expanded in future.


Though im more intrigued in the war that featured tanks knocked out by bayonets poked in holes...

This was partially a sarcastic comment, I was more referring to the infantry opening up the tank and killing the crew.

Thanks to you both for the feedback, it will be taken into consideration for the next draft.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/17 17:55:52


 
   
 
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