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Last updated: 9/30/14
Well guys that's it. I'm done. I have literally been ham strung from continuing this project in any meaningful way. What am I talk about? The point that 40k as an ongoing friendly game environment in this area is dead. The one store with in an hours drive in any direction for me, that has play space is situated in an out of the way shopping center that frankly is a pain to get into under normal circumstances, is currently all but inaccessable due to road construction cutting off the most direct access to the shopping center, followed by the second most direct route being declared private property and being barred to through traffic. So now to get to the shop it's make a left on this road that leads into the depths of the forest of doom, now make another left onto the trail of endless woe, then make another left and go over the bridge of infinite death, then make a right and go through the Cave of unending hardships and finally pass through the gates of unending torment.

Yes, I'm talking about making a 7 mile trip through residential areas, about 80% of which are blind turns at 4-way stops in place of going 1 mile on the main road. Thank you country road work. What does this have to do with playing 40k for me? Simple.

Of the the already barely present group of people who had an interest in 40k, only 2 of them would agree to allow me to play test this codex against them (They were tau and Eldar players btw). And with the difficulty in getting to the shop now, they're not coming in for 40k any longer. So, now I have 0 ability to play test the rules.

So... yeah. It was a good run. I'd have liked to finish all three books, but with out the ability to play test anything, it's nothing more then rules-masterbation. Sorry guys. I gave it my best shot.



updated: 08/23/14
- stream-lined the Chaos Boon Table
- Changed Chaos Chosen so max squad size is now 20 models
- Changed cost of Ahirman to 240 points
- Obliterators dropped to 75 points each, gained a second power fist.
- On Chaos Lord, replaced "And They Shall Know no fear" with "They know neither fear, nor loyalty"
- fixed verbiage on Warp Talons regarding Peerless hunter.
- Added Mutilators V1.0



updated: 06/6/14
-Added Ahirman spread vs 1.0

This is the modified army list for this project. The pages here are assumed to supersede the corresponding pages in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines book.



As the project has advanced, we began making large format 2 page spreads for the entry in preperation for producing the actual PDF file that we are ultimately moving to make, These spreads are linked below in 3 forms. The thumbnail themselves, which are linked to a 72 ppi resolution view of the spread. Directly below the thumbnaill is another link to to a High Resolution 300 PPI version of the spread. Some of the spreads get quit text heavy, so the 72 PPI spread become hard to read, thus why the 300 PPI versions are available.

Any text on the spread that is rendered in green, like this, means that the information or rule is there, but is still under consideration for change. By this I mean the rule is there on paper, but I am not convinced it is correct or right so I am still very heavily looking at it.


Head Quarter Units

Abaddon the Despoiler Version 2.0
Abaddon the Despoiler Version 1.0

Ahriman Version 2.1
Ahriman Version 2.0
Ahriman Version 1.0

Typhus, Herald of Nurgle (Unchanged from Codex)

Huron Blackheart (Unchanged From Codex)

Chaos Lord Version 3.0
Chaos Lord Version 2.0
Chaos Lord Version 1.0

Chaos Commander Version 1.0

Elite Units

Warp Smith Version 1.0

Chaos Chosen Version 1.5
Chaos Chosen Version 1.0

Thousand Sons Version 4.1
-Version .1
-Version .2
-Version .3

Helbrute Version 1.0

Khorne Berzerkers Version 4.0 (Updated: 5/27/14)
-Version 3
-Version 2
-Version 1

Nurgle Plague Marines Version 1.0

Fast Attack Units

Chaos Bikers Squad Version 2.0
-Version 1.0
*Chaos Bikers had previously used a double card layout due to size and design. Link for 2nd page: Bikers: Dedication to the Gods upgrade.

Warp Talons Version 1.0

Heavy Support


Obliterators Version 1.5
Obliterators Version 1.0

Chaos Armoury (Now with revamped Chaos Boon Table!)

Armory page 1 and 2. Covers Champions of Chaos and warlord traits. Version 1.0

Armour page 3 and 4, Covers marks and melee weapons Version 1.0
Favor of the Gods Armory page (Full ress image) This is the page that details the respective abilities the Lord would have access to based on their Mark or lack of one.



Previously, we had made smaller quick reference cards for the purposes of reference and game testing. These cards are listed below, but are superseded by material posted above.

Project progress: Below you see a list of units, psychic power tables, and army list modification. If the unit has (Codex) listed next to it, it means that there have been no modifications to the unit and the entry as it appears in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines book. If the unit listing provides a link and provides a version number (such as V.2 and V2.0) that means we have been working on revamping that project and it is linked to the most current unit card for that unit. If there are multiple version numbers listed below the unit in question, this means that we have gone through multiple revisions of the unit but are still providing links to the old unit cards for comparison sake. The individual version numbers will be linked to the older cards.


HQ
Abaddon the Despoiler V.1
Huron Black Heart (Codex)
Kharn the Betrayer (Codex)
Ahriman (Codex)
Typhus (Codex)
Lucius the Eternal (Codex)
Fabius Bile (Codex)
Chaos Lord (Codex)
Sorcerer (Codex)
Daemon Prince (Codex)
Warp Smith (Codex)
Dark Apostle (Codex)
Troops
Chaos Space Marines V.1
Chaos Cultists (Codex)
Chaos Legionary Squad V.2
Elites
Chosen V.1
Possessed (Codex)
Chaos Terminators (Codex)
Helbrute (Codex)
Mutilator (Codex)
Khorne Berzerkers V.3
-Version .1
-version .2
Thousand Sons V.4
-Version .1
-Version .2
-Version .3
Plague Marines (Codex)
Noise Marines (Codex)
Dedicated Transport
Chaos Rhino V.1
Chaos Drop Pod V.1
Fast attack
Chaos Bikers V.1*
*Chaos Bikers are presently using a double card layout due to size and design. Link for 2nd page: Bikers: Dedication to the Gods upgrade.
Chaos Spawn (Codex)
Raptors (Codex)
Warp Talons V.1
Heldrake (Codex)
Heavy Support
Havocs V.1
Obliterator (Codex)
Defiler (Codex)
Forgefiend (Codex)
Maulerfiend (Codex)
Chaos Land Raider (Codex)
Chaos Vindicator (Codex)
Chaos Predator (Codex)

Psychic Discipline Tables
Tzeentch Powers V.1
Nurgle Powers (Codex)
Slaanesh Powers (Codex)

Chaos Marine Traits






///////////////////////////////////Original First post\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Okay so before I begin I want to say I'm not saying that Codex: Chaos Space Marines can not build playable lists. I've heard from tournament players what kinds of lists work best. And here's my first issue with Codex: Chaos Space Marines comes into it: I keep hearing the same thing, over and over and over again. Nurgle daemon princes with wings, 1-3 Plague marines, 1-2 units of Noise marines, and 1-3 Heldrakes. Some times I'll hear someone talking about taking Typhus so that they can run mobs of plague zombies and I heard one guy talk about running a Melta-gun equipped Nurgle biker unit. But that's about all I hear about in connection to CSM lists.

And it got my brain rolling, why don't I hear about Khorne Berzerkers or Thousand sons? T-sons are spitting out AP3 bolt shots. Those should be ripping through MEQs with out question. Berzerkers get 4 attacks on the charge. Field 12-14 of these guys and you're hitting targets with 48 attacks on the charge. I mean even horde armies are gonna look at that and go "Um... boss, you sure about this?" And what about Mutilators? They form the weapon they need when they need it, they've got 2 wounds with a 2+/5++. Stick Mark of Nurgle and they become T5, give 'em Mark of Tzeentch and they get a 4++. Give 'em Mark of khorne and they get 5 attacks on the charge plus counter attack. And Chaos Terminators? Why don't I hear about those bad-mofos? I mean they're Terminators with better options. Give 'em Lignting claws and mark of Khorne. Those dude are gonna tear some gak up! And on that note, how about Warp Talons? Those guys have outstanding models, and they come with Lightning claws! Who isn't afraid of a unit of 10 lightning claw equipped jump packers? Given Mark of Khorn and that's 40 AP3 attacks hitting you in the face that get to re-roll failed to-wounds. That hurts! A lot! And as a side note, why do I only ever see people using possessed bits and never the possessed themselves?

So yeah? Why don't we hear about more of these units being used in game? So I started looking into it. Here's what I've found:

Khorne Berzerkers: Okay, they're Khorne Berzerkers. Give 'em Chain axes and they get AP4 attacks, but then they cost 22 points each. They get 4 attacks on the charge, but regular CSMs can get that too. And at 2 points less then naked Khorne Berzerkers. But the Chain Axe makes them AP4... So 4 attacks at WS4 with S5 on the charge with LD 9/10 for 24 (roughly) points for a CSM compared to 4 attacks at WS5 with S5 With LD 9/10 and fearless on the charge with AP4 for 25 (roughly) points for a Berzerker.... huh... Not really sure that's worth it most of the time. Sure be nice if I'm fighting a horde army of Nids or Infantry swarms of Guard. But against MEQs... I mean I guess they work out alright. They're basically CSMs in red once everything is said and done.


Thousand Sons: okay.... 150 points.... for 4 T-sons and a Sorcerer. Okay. Not too bad right there. They are 3+/4++ with AP3 bolters that can basically ALWAY fire twice at 12" and then charge after that... I don't honestly know why you would charge with Thousand Sons. It's important to know that you can! Besides, it's not like anyone will be charging you since you can over watch them into oblivion with your AP3 bolters! Oh... wait. They're Slow and Purposeful. That means they can't over watch.
Well you get a Level 1 psychic with that order so that's cool! He gets to roll on the.... tzeentch table. So he might get... a power he can't actually use because it's Warp power 2. So you'd switch it out for the Primaris power with a 24" range S: D6+1 no AP assault 1 Blast that can generate up to 3 additional S3 hits. Okay, not bad not bad. Nothing really pants dropping but not bad. Might get boon of Mutation, so I can roll on the Boon Table. Okay, Um... I've got a chance to become a spawn or get nothing compared to everything else. And it's limited to a range of 2".... Um yeah. That's a scoop of random with some random sauce and some random sprinkles thrown against a random wall for a random reason. OH! I might get doom bolt! Which... yeah, it's doom bolt. 18" range, S8, AP1 assault1! That'll hurt! But yeah... it's a 1 in 3 shot of getting it.

Possessed: Er... yeah. 26 points a model. the 3+/5+ is nice as it the 2 attacks, and if you given 'em Mark of Khorne they get 4 attacks on the charge promised and the Strength 5 is nice extra. But... they don't really get anything. They are... what they are. Period. And honestly, they're not all that reliable for what they are. I mean they get the Vessels of Chaos chart and there's really nothing bad on it. But it means they basically can't hurt anything with armor. Yeah AP3 attacks are nice, until I get hit by something has a 2+. I can give 'em Icons. Icon of Wrath would be nice. Furious Charge and can re-roll my charge ranges. That's cool. Icon of flame... I have no ranged weapons. at all. period. what goes does this do me? Icon of Despair would give me fear. That's fun. But yeah. It's fear. And they're already daemons. Doesn't that Upgrade to Terror then? Oh that was 2nd ed? What does it do now? Waste 5 points? Oh okay. Moving on. Icon of Excess, feel no pain. Meh, okay. It's feel no pain. It is what it is. Oh The Icon of vengeance! I can that and that'll make 'em Fear..er...less.... they already are fearless. Okay so of the 9 options that are actually available to the unit 3 of them are either worthless or redundant. The Marks are at least options. Hey t5 is always nice. Though that makes them 30 point a model. Mark of khorne, okay more attacks on the charge are always nice, but for 29 points each. Um Tzeentch would make 'em 3+/4++ okay nice. But again for 30 points a model. and Mark of Slaanesh would make 'em I5 for 29 points a model. Stack that last one with the Supernatural speed from the Vessels of Chaos Table and you got some really fast dangerous Mofos. That will strike last in Close combat if charging through cover....

Mutilators: Okay they're 15 points less then Oblits, nice price point for a Close Combat swiss army knife. But they Deep Strike and can't assault on that turn, don't have Frag grenades and can't take a dedicated transport. ouch. So I spend the 165 points for 3 of these dude, and either spend the first turn getting them into a land raider or start foot slogging it across the field. If I do option 1 it means I have to buy the land raider, which isn't a bad thing persay. It's expensive but land raiders are nice. Oh wait, 'cept Chaos Land Raiders don't get Power of the machine spirit. Well that's not a deal breaker. But it does mean the unit cost has gone from 165 to 395. Ouch... okay not such a great deal. Okay so I'll have to really work to make sure they get their points back. That unit of scouts sitting on the Objective. Okay winning the game is worth the 395. I'll just charge 'em after I shoot 'em up with the Land Raider... and they're in cover. They strike before me. Muties don't have frag grenades.... yeah. I guess I could add a character to the unit. Maybe a Warp Smith with Mark of Khorne... well that solves a lot of the problems, but then that makes the investment 515... Yeah that about covers why I won't be taking any Mutilators.


Chaos Terminators: There really isn't a reason to not take these guys. But that's also why they're not used very much. They are what they are. And most of what they can do really well (Close combat) can actually be done better with other options such as mauler fiend. With the Hull Points system in place, Termicide isn't as appealing as it once was since it's largely a wasted effort that can have the same end result achieved by other units that don't need to be sacrificed to accomplish it.


Warp Talons: Hey we're Lightning claw equipped jump packers that will blind when we deep strike next to you... and then... um.... we will... wait... to attack you. Until next turn. Which means you get to shoot at us first. And then shoot at us again when we charge you. Unless you charge us first but we can shoot you fir... oh wait. No. No we can't do that. We don't have any guns. Oh you're not going to charge us first? Okay, great now we'll charge you! In cover, but that's fine because... we.... use.... um... we get a 5++ save? yeah you're going first because these claws really can't handle grenades. [img]http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/wallbash.gif
[/img]

So Warp Talons, Thousand Sons, Mutilators are basically worthless to take at all with regards to building a competitive list. All three are high specialized units that are ham strung from doing what they do best. Thousand Sons should be great at shooting all the time, but in reality they're only good at shooting on their terms. They're too expensive to be a speed bump unit and the Sorcerer's randomness is frankly too random to be counted on. Warp Talons and Mutilators would be uber-first strike combat units... if they had an ability to strike at initiative through cover. As it stands in both cases "Hey I'm gonna sit behind thus bush and beat the crap out of you!" is what they hear the most.

So what Terminators and Khorne Berzerkers? Those both look like really good units to take, why don't I see those on the field? Well it's because they're both in the elite section of the army list. Elites are a 0-3 limitation section. And what are these markedly good units competing against from that section? Plague Marines and Noise Marines. Remember what I said I'd heard the most of when talking about CSM army lists lately? 1-3 units of noise marines and 1-3 units of plague marines, usually in combo to each other. Both of those units are in the elites section unless you take a lord/daemon prince/Sorcerer with the appropriate mark to make them troops. So I take a lord with mark of nurgle, get those Plague Marines into the troops section and then take the Noise marines in the elites. Yeah the Berzerkers and Termies don't get taken. If I take a Lord with mark of Slannesh I get the Plagues in the Elites and the Noise 'ems in the troops. Those Zerkies and Termies are still having coffee at home.

What am I going on about? Well a couple weeks I began work on a project to re-design and re-vamp the Chaos Codex. It was originally to be limited to just some force org changes to make more diverse and varied Chaos Space Marine armies possible. Allow variable options of troops based on the lord and his load out, a bit like the Space Marine codex does. If you take a Lord on a bike, you can take biker squads as troops. So that was the objective of that project. But as I worked on it I kept looking at other units, like those that I've already talked about. So that leads me to this: What am I doing with this post.

I want to take a much more detailed look at the Chaos Space Marine Codex, look at every single unit, look at the units interact with one another, look at how the stats stack up against peoples interpretation of the fluff, how it's options work, how they don't work, what options should it have that it doesn't, what options it shouldn't have that it does, what are the pros, what are the cones, all of it. I want to hear from long term Chaos Marine players and I want to hear what you like about the current codex, I want to hear what you hate about it. I want to hear your thoughts about how X unit has changed over editions. I want to hear your opinion about how the units work in the army, how they don't work. Why you take it, why you won't take it.

Why am I asking for all of this information?

Well I want to rebuild the Chaos Space Marine Codex. But I want to dive into the entire process. And I want people to challenge me on it. I want people to offer other views of it. I want to come up with revisions, and then test those revisions in game. Many times. I want to try them 20 times to come to conclusions just to have someone else use the exact same revisions in a way I hadn't considered or even imagined. I want to see how you use the information and then report back on that.

So that is what I'm asking for. You guys to respond to this post with your thoughts.

I only ask for a couple things in return:

1) Respect everyone's statement. everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you feel the opinion is misplaced, explain why you think so. No one-sentence responses please. Explain, and discuss. That's the point of this.

2) when/if you play test a revision of the rules/unit get detailed. report number of shots at what WS, report what terrain you were dealing with. Talk about what you were shooting against, what upgrades each units had, how it worked out, how it didn't work out. What you were planing to do, how it worked out, why it did work or didn't work. Why you feel it didn't work ect.

I did a prior project where I rebuilt the CSM list to accommodate more diverse builds based on the HQ selections, a bit like the Space Marine list. If you take a lord on a bike, bikers are troops, if you take a Warp Smith you can take a helbrute as a troop choice, ect. You can check out the results of that effort below:
.

I've already posted this topic on another forum and gotten some feed back on it. We seem to have started talking about how to revamp the Thousand Sons unit. Here's my initial idea on that front

So, who wishes to embark on a Reign of Chaos with me?

Ok I like it that you have found the flaws of the codex

What I would say is make KB and TS cheaper thats why they are not taken very often... that and compared to PM...

Create Warband/Legion tactics it would flesh out each warband /Legion of CSM, plus one of the biggest complaints of the CSM codex is that its too bland...

Warpsmiths and Daemon machines get something or cheaper

CC units in all get cheaper, Warp Talons need to be cheaper with grenades and Mutilators need to be cheaper

Create two types of dreadnought: The CSM crazy dreadnought with the crazy table as it is and the Hellbrute as a sort of venerable dread, just give it daemon and IWND and people will be happy for that.

And thats what I would do for a CSM codex

For possessed I kind of like what the Horus Heresy series did, making them into expensive but individually powerful units. Like WS 5, Str 5, W 2, A 3 or something like that. I feel like possessed now aren't really an upgrade on marines, just an alternative. Possessed should be marines with pretty big stat boosts seeing how they have daemons inside them.

At least give them access to wargear like the Horus Heresy series did, possessed aren't as useless when they have bolters to shoot with even if they are overpriced.

I made a complementing codex for DA myself.
If you want to see its layout, you can download the PDF here:
https://mega.co.nz/#!tRICGLRJ!OOIhlkSRzKz2abXxLvPaIuYqcmInmb9WgwBwum1gRPo

If you think it is a good idea, perhaps I can help you compile a codex with a similar structure to mine.

I'm down for providing some input from the Thousand Sons perspective. I already use some custom rules and everyone in my group is more than happy to fight against them on a weekly basis.

My main beef with the new 6th Edition Codex is twofold.

Firstly, for an army that lives in the harshest and most terrifying place imaginable they certainly don't represent it on the tabletop, breaking as easily as any non-Space Marine unit. They can be overrun, their loyalist counterparts can't. They are subject to Fear even though they deal with it on a regular basis, yet their loyalist counterparts get to ignore Fear for far less believable reasons. This comes right down to the Chaos Space Marine squads themselves. There's very little incentive to take huge squads of them and they're a bit of a lesser choice when compared to the Cultists. I think they should have their own variation of ATSKNF special rule, one that makes them immune to sweeping advances and Fear, but with the rest reflecting their Chaos nature, perhaps being able to automatically regroup if the squad is a certain size or larger and having Stubborn?

The second beef I have with the codex is how the lore really isn't really added well to the tabletop. Warp Talons are a perfect example, they have absolutely fantastic lore yet the unit we get hardly resembles that lore and more-so feels like a Possessed Raptors squad. Some suggestions for the Warp Talons:
* Give their lightning claws Rending.
* Give them Fleet, but only on the phase they use their jump pack.
* Increase the range of their Blind ability when deep striking. Also, add the ability that, if they use their jump packs in the Assault phase, the enemy they charge is effected by Blind.

To me that and maybe a points adjustment to reflect these changes (if needed) would make the squad far more appealing compared to the likes of the Helldrake (without being as OP).

Apart from that all my other grievances with the Codex are minor. For example I really wish we had Legion Rules, Cult Terminators, Possessed that are more tactically viable (they're fluffy, yes, but its to the point where its a detriment to the unit), and changing the Hellbrute to an MC instead of a vehicle to help further differentiate itself from the loyalist Dreadnought (nice try GW, but a simple name change doesn't make the unit different) and maybe have the Daemon Engines be MCs as well (and ruled so that they act like a bridge between MC and Vehicle, so immune to Fleshbane, Poison, etc).

Oh yeah and Chaos Rewards. I don't believe we should have a massive list, but there should at least be 1-2 non-Steed, non-weapon Chaos Rewards for each Chaos God. Also, I think there should be 3-4 Undivided Artefacts and 1-2 Artefacts for each Chaos God.

I threw up a webpage just a few minutes ago:

http://www.fancodices.com/

If you guys provide me with concrete (balanced) changes, I will incorporate them into a complementary chaos space marine codex.

flodihn wrote:
I threw up a webpage just a few minutes ago:

http://www.fancodices.com/

If you guys provide me with concrete (balanced) changes, I will incorporate them into a complementary chaos space marine codex.

Once we settle on such changes we'll post 'em. Or more likely I'll compile 'em into a complimentary Codex or something.

As an aside the folks over on Bolter and Chainsword got my brain rolling on the Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers. For quick reference I'm making reference cards for each unit for each version or change I put through. That way you just download the card and have it. You can print it if you wish, drop it on you tablet, whatever. I've done cards for the first revamped versions of the Khorne Berzerkers and the Thousand Sons. Check 'em out.

Revamped Khorne Berzerkers Ref Card. Version 0.1

Revamped Thousand Sons Ref Card Version 0.1

2 Wound Rubricae as Troops (Youll probably have three units of them, right?) is a pain in the ass for 6th edition wound allocation rules. Better have lots of wound markers ready, in addition to the spells you are already book keeping.

If I could suggest, keep the same points cost but.

Make inferno bolts a special rule that grants -2 to ap when the model shoots a bolter style weapon.

Then allow the sons a heavy bolter at 10 models. (ap 2 heavy bolters)

Sorcerer can focus on guiding the sons by forgoing shooting and attacking to grant +1bs and +1ws.

in addition if a model with the psyker and MoT is in the unit, it gains 1 warp charge per 5 models in the unit. (note warp charge not Mastery lvl so no extra powers)

then alter the tzeentch table. I hate how the god of drugs has better powers than the god of magic

Primaris
Doombolt (warp charge 1)
S8 ap1 beam attack

1-2
Horror strike (1-3 warp charges)
Witchfire that summons d6 horrors per warp charge expended, the horrors vanish at the end of the turn, the horrors can charge on turn of summoning and if they vanish while in cc inflict d3 s4 hits with haywire on the unit they attacked for each one that dissapers this way.

3-4
Tzeentchian gateway (1-3 warp charges)
Witchfire power select a unit within 18 Inches and move it 6 inches in any direction per warp charge used ignoring the effects of terrain. If it is your own unit you dont need to roll to hit. If the unit does not possess a model with the mark of tzeentch, or demon of tzeentch, inflict d6 s7 hits per warp charge used.
if this power is used on a non infantry unit, the strain on the caster is considerable and he also takes d6 s7 hits per charge used.

5-6
Warptime (1-3 charges)
Blessing that gains additional effects per charge used. Targets the casters unit, effects are cumulative.
1charge
Unit can reroll failed hits
2 charges
Unit rerolls failed to wound rolls
3 charges
Opponent rerolls successful saves on wounds caused by this unit.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now here is a unique unit, not the sick hybrid of ork nob and sternguard originally posted. I like my chaos army we ain't loyalists and such I don't want loyalist rip offs in my army.

I have field tested this set by the way.
people enjoyed using tzeentchian gateway to fire juggerlords into cc (khornate cannon) bubble wrapping him in spawn to soak the hits. People said it needed to be nerfed due to turn one charging, but it always is fatal to the psyker and most spawn don't like it either.

Warptime proved a pricy but awesome buff to a shooty unit

Horror strike was just lolsy as they denied overwatch and defensive grenades by locking a unit I cc before a real charge. Requests to replace horrors for furies due to minor improvement in cc (furies are jump) and less shooting as horrors are actually rather good at shooting.

I have plans on the legion tactics dilemma and I think you my like it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good things for players
Ahiman is now useable, triple which fires allow him to cast off 2 teleports. Add ten man thousand sons and 6 warp charges result in much fun
Khornate cannon
Access to haywire with horror strike (may become fury fountain)
10 man thousand sons unit under warptime is grim. And ahrimar will throw this until into your face.

Good things for balance (also known as what people hated)
Sorcerers require a hit to teleport enemies
Killing a single thousand sons reduces the warp buff
They are still expensive, more so when you start attaching sorcerers
Rolling a double one to charge with horrors (another note for the fury campaign)
Warptime doesn't ignore cover
Most units you want to teleport get fried by s7 hits
Witchfire reliance prevents use of powers in cc
Thousand sons without the sorcerer stink a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Legion tactics dilemma solution

We remove mark options from lords and replace with...

Legion tactics.
World eaters (20 pts)
The model receives a mark of khorne, icon of wrath and has +1 ws, khorne berserkers may be taken as troops

Death guard (25 pts)
The model receives a mark of nurgle and blight grenades. Also its initiative is reduced by one and it receives fnp. It may also swap any weapon for a plague knife for free. Plague marines can be taken as troops.

Emperors children (30 pts)
The model receives a mark of slannesh it also obtains fleet, and an icon of excess. Noise marines may be taken as troops

Thousand sons (30 pts)
The model receives a mark of tzeentch and a force weapon, furthermore the model becomes a mastery lvl 1 psyker and can take additional mastery lvls at 25 pts each. Also thousand sons can be taken as troops

Nice buffs for the existing cult lords (you pay for them though)

Iron warriors (30 pts)
The model receives mechatendrites. Also up to 3 vehicles or fortifications can be bought outside of the force organisation chart. Furthermore models with legion tactics special rule can exchange it for stubborn

Night lords (30 pts)
The model gains shrouded, raptors can be taken as troops, furthermore models with legion tactics can exchange it for outflank.

Word bearers (30 pts)
The model gains zealot, models with the champion of chaos special rule get a free roll on the mutation table at the start of the game. Also you can reroll any result on the mutation table.

Alpha legion (20 pts)
The model gains prefererd enemy. You can modify any reserve roll by one, cultist units gain infiltrate, you can swap legion tactics for stealth, all models lose the champion of chaos rule and you may not purchase a demon prince.

Black legion (25pts)
The model gains crusader and votlw, you can swap legion tactics for veterans of the long war.

Phew that took a while
Non cult marine units gain legion tactics which does nothing

Well Blackskull, thank you for that huge ungainly wall of text that appears to cover everything in your wish list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackskull wrote:
If I could suggest, keep the same points cost but.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now here is a unique unit, not the sick hybrid of ork nob and sternguard originally posted. I like my chaos army we ain't loyalists and such I don't want loyalist rip offs in my army.

I have field tested this set by the way.
people enjoyed using tzeentchian gateway to fire juggerlords into cc (khornate cannon) bubble wrapping him in spawn to soak the hits. People said it needed to be nerfed due to turn one charging, but it always is fatal to the psyker and most spawn don't like it either.

1- Thank you very much. It's always nice to see ones work ignored as being a 'sick hybrid' and just a rip off of someone else work.

2- what's your field test data? game size? opponent? army comp? turn count? anything?

And if we get a good enough codex, all we have to do is contact GW and they'll toss up a new codex next month?

Johnnytorrance wrote:
And if we get a good enough codex, all we have to do is contact GW and they'll toss up a new codex next month?

haha! oh how I wish it were that simple.

No, chances are quit high if we took such a route that GW would simply ignore us. No, what we would need to do in order to get GW involved would be build the codex like we're doing, and create a lot of hype around it. Get other people talking about it and using it. As that base grows GW will get wind of it. Since it's not intended to be any sort of "release" GW can't tell us to stop it. But chances are they're start looking at it. And slowly the designer(s) will see what we're doing. From there... well it gets decidedly more murky as to what could and might happen. Either way, this isn;t really for GW. This is for us. The Chaos players who are tired of dealing with a 3rd tier codex where 1/2 the units just aren't worth taking along side the other half. Where every time a new codex comes out and there's something that hurts us the answer is "Well then go play real Army (IE: Just use allies)." I'm personally sick of it and if GW isn't going to help us out, guess what? We're gonna deal with it.

If it actually gets popular and excepted in most settings. I would be willing to use it.

Maverike_prime wrote:
Well Blackskull, thank you for that huge ungainly wall of text that appears to cover everything in your wish list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackskull wrote:
If I could suggest, keep the same points cost but.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now here is a unique unit, not the sick hybrid of ork nob and sternguard originally posted. I like my chaos army we ain't loyalists and such I don't want loyalist rip offs in my army.

I have field tested this set by the way.
people enjoyed using tzeentchian gateway to fire juggerlords into cc (khornate cannon) bubble wrapping him in spawn to soak the hits. People said it needed to be nerfed due to turn one charging, but it always is fatal to the psyker and most spawn don't like it either.

1- Thank you very much. It's always nice to see ones work ignored as being a 'sick hybrid' and just a rip off of someone else work.

2- what's your field test data? game size? opponent? army comp? turn count? anything?

Currently we have 3 players Including myself on our own experimental rules table. We play each other and occasionally someone comes from the main club floor to try our rules providing we have tested it, outlined it, and its not revoltingly broken.

Also we have been experimenting with thousand sons for a while now since I found a post on dakka titled rubric marines reconsidered. Our games are many and we correct when needed, with games ranging from 500 pts to 1850pts. Current opponents include marines eldar tyranids tau and Astra millitarum. In the original rubric marines reconsidered post, a similar unit to yours was posted and rejected by the group, I haven't rejected your unit we have just played with similar and found them lacking synergy with any other chaos unit. We currently have 8 games playing with our versions and we fully support your projects direction, this is a great thing you are doing and I simply want it to be the best it can be.

The legion tactics thing is from our chalkboard and hasn't been tested, we plan to run your bezerker remake tonight

PS that's not even half of what's on my list

Death To All Who Oppose Us
Units with this special rule have the Stubborn special rule and will automatically regroup at the start of the turn so long as their unit consists of 10 or more models. Units which regroup automatically in this fashion may perform actions during their turn as if they had not broken. If a unit containing one or more models with this special rule is caught in a Sweeping Advance, they are not destroyed, but remain locked in combat instead. In addition, a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is immune to Fear.


As for Legion Rules I don't think we should be paying points on top of what we're already taking, it should be something that is innate and built into the rules of the Codex itself. Perhaps Veteran of the Long War provides the Legion rules instead of the current +1 Ld and Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) special rule. I imagined a system where each Legion's rules were comprised of three parts: Army-wide Effect/Rule, Veterans of the Long War bonuses, and a bonus to Chosen which makes them unique depending on which Legion you take. Would be cool if Red Corsairs got their own Legion rules as well, perhaps giving them access to more contemporary weapons (such as Assault Cannons, Multi-meltas, Plasma Cannons, Storm Shields, etc).

bleh, just came back and actually read my now tri-edited post which makes me look like an hypocrite because it does exactly what I'm asking Blackskull not to do. .... okay. Fixing this.



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 Blackskull wrote:

Maverike_prime wrote:
Well Blackskull, thank you for that huge ungainly wall of text that appears to cover everything in your wish list.

PS that's not even half of what's on my list

If I can make one request on that front: Please don't post the huge chunks of info. Break it down into smaller chucks that directly connected to a given unit. All the info on the Khorne Berzerkers in one post for instance, all the info for the Plague Marines in another, and then all the info for the Legion Traits: Iron Warriors (I'm still going to say that belongs in a different book by the way) in another.

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 Marik Law wrote:
Death To All Who Oppose Us
As for Legion Rules I don't think we should be paying points on top of what we're already taking, it should be something that is innate and built into the rules of the Codex itself. Perhaps Veteran of the Long War provides the Legion rules instead of the current +1 Ld and Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) special rule. I imagined a system where each Legion's rules were comprised of three parts: Army-wide Effect/Rule, Veterans of the Long War bonuses, and a bonus to Chosen which makes them unique depending on which Legion you take. Would be cool if Red Corsairs got their own Legion rules as well, perhaps giving them access to more contemporary weapons (such as Assault Cannons, Multi-meltas, Plasma Cannons, Storm Shields, etc).

Yeah, I'm gonna say it right now: I do not feel that there should be Legion rules in the Chaos Space Marines book. A hint of them, perhaps. have them limited to one unit that can access them, sure I can roll with that. But I do not feel like you should be able to build The [insert legion name here] Legion out of the Chaos Space Marines book. Well, to be blunt I don't think there should actually be a Chaos Space Marines book. I feel it should it should be broken into 2 separate books. The first being "Chaos Renagades" and the second being "Traitor Legions". Chaos Renagades would be largely the Traitors that have fallen since the heresy. The lone marines, The Traitor Guard Platoons, the random squad. The occasional company and the odd 1/2 of a chapter that wipped out the other half in the civil war. that kind of thing. Sure there are legion vets in there. But they are hardly the back bone of armies built out of this book. The Traitor Legions would be the book that covers the remains of the Legions and that is where you would want to look at if you wanted to a Night Lords army, or an Iron Warriors Grand Company.


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 Blackskull wrote:
we plan to run your bezerker remake tonight

Please post results with army comps on that.



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Automatically Appended Next Post:
Put together a new unit card for the Thousand Sons based on your suggestion BlackSkull.

Thousand Sons Unit card V.2

and here's the one for the Berzerkers:

Khorne Berzerkers Unit Card V.1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated Tzeentch Power table based on Skull's recommendations:



and had to fix the cards for the Thousand Sons and Berserkers:

I have a horrible headache, had a lot of fights to sort out.
but the gaming was simply awesome

game 1 featured Dark angels vs Chaos Revamped 1500pts
chaos used a 10 man berserker squad with 5 chain glaives (due to the wording the champion was carrying one)
their was also a 10 man squad of the new blend of thousand sons (not sure what they thought about it when I gave them the rules but their was much nodding)

Game 2 ME and Chaos revamped vs Chaos revamped 1500pts
Annoyingly I left my list at the club but I had 15 man thousand sons squad to guard my sorcerer, opponent iron warrior player with raider mounted berserker squad with all chain glaives, and a tzeentchian sorcerer

then we had a discussion on rules, amended a few and the 2 games had rematches with the other opponent (I played against dark angels)

Berserker summery
game 1
unfortunately met a sticky end against some deathwing knights turn 2 (DA player took no chances) did nothing but move up all game.

Game 2
I got massacred, tzeentchian gateway was used to fire a land raider into my face from stationary so it still fires all weapons as it had not moved in the movement phase (but rather the shooting phase). the lucky sod rolled 3 1s on S7 hits for his sorcerer and saved 2 so the sorcerer was still alive. then the bezerkers came out and killed
a predator
a defiler
my warlord
and the thousand sons.
after this we sat down and had a discussion about chain glaives, and fluff.

OUR PROPOSALS
Berserkers have FNP in cc, it fits with the fluff as berserkers have been sliced in half yet still continue to hack the legs off anyone within reach, incorporate into blazing charge to avoid over stuffing with rules

price raised to 20pts per model

Berzerkers gain a special weapons table that any model can take from. they get 1 weapon +1 for every 5 models (so 3 at 10) the weapons pts values are listed below.
chain glaive 10pts
lightning claw 10pts
power weapon 10pts
power fist 20pts
Redsun blade 20pts
S user Ap - (daemon weapon)

Redsun blade [fluff courtesy of mark (dark angel player) who designed the weapon]
these weapons were first designed by Warpsmith Redsun, who found that forging a blade from the brass of a juggernaut and engraving it with runes to khorne allowed it to function as a rudimentary soul trap for the creation of a daemon weapon. while unsuitable for the confinement of greater daemons like the true weapons of legend the blades could confine a lesser demon if only for a brief time. before battle a berserker must summon a daemon and drive the blade through its chest before combat. the blade is then kept in a blood filled sheath to appease the newly contained demon, the act of drawing one in cc results in a great blood spray and soiling of many trousers.

with the new rules in place the games continued (note thousand sons were also modified in this time)

Game 3 (chaos revamped vs iron warriors)
the iron warriors had to modify the load out of the berserkers, he opted for a chain glaive champion and 2 Redsun blades. his opponent dropped 2 glaives and replaced one for a power fist on his champ and then modded his terminators with the remaining points.

the iron warrior fired the land raider up (sorcerer died) turn 1 chaos then moved in with the thousand sons teleporting and after a lucky lascannon destroyed the raider (no zerkers were harmed) the sons boltered the crap out of the zerkers killing 6 (the crater left by the raider provided great cover) seeing that their was only 4 left the sons decided to charge. BIG MISTAKE counter attack was successful and due to the placement of the aspiring sorcerer he was killed by overwatch fire. the zerkers also still had all the special weapons left, end result 8 sons dead, zekers no casualty's made all the fnp rolls. iron warriors turn saw the death of one bezerker and the end of the thousand sons. they consolidated towards some cultists who managed to kill 2 the following turn with autogun fire (fail). the last one charged in with his redsun blade, which then decided to kill him. (sigh)

Game 4 (me vs dark angels)
no berserkers were harmed, or even used in the playing of this game.


Thousand sons summery
game 1
proved to be the ultimate marine killers, but stupidly hard to kill, end of the game despite being absolutely hammered they still had 7 marines left, including sorcerer, due to musical wounds. termicide units worked in breaking lascannons and the like so they had to try kill them with bolter fire which didn't go so well, even plasma proved meh when fighting them. sulking ensued.

game 2
was awful sons were the first to be charged by the chain glaive monsters and over 2 turns they were all killed along with my sorcerer, to try and save them I charged my defiler in and he bit the dust too.

OUR PROPOSALS
we were left with a choice, nerf or raise points, we chose to nerf.

we added one fluff laced rule to nerf the sons
Dust To Dust
attacks that ignore this models armor save also inflict instant death.

being animated constructs of sealed armor breaking them open is frankly the worst thing you can do to a son. bolter fire and the like is still a laughable attempt to kill a son but plasma is not and neither is rending, although the aspiring sorcerer often takes those hits with the 3+ invun he carries

Game 3
DtD was responsible for the deaths of half the squad due to the berserker charge having a chain glaive. but charging was a really bad decision...berserkers just rock

Game 4
had to be very careful due to plasma, and power weapon vulnerabilities but they performed great, killing 2 full tactical squads and capping an objective, gateway is a brilliant way to move these guys and if you position characters correctly you can benefit form the 3++ save they carry to prevent plasma death (unfortunately I lost the aspiring sorcerer doing just that). all in all a fun game and while the dark angle play admitted they were very good he didn't think them the impossible bulwark of death that was previously being used (I had 3 sons left at the end).


NOTE ON TERRAIN
the other club members were playing a cities of death campaign and stole most of it so cover was fairly scarce and featured a beer can and a lunchbox hill

I think all of you bring valid points to the issue with thousands sons and khorne berzerkers.

I have reviewed the posts here and the read the results of the player tests.

Honestly, I think the khorne berzekers are fairly priced if you compare to an upgraded space marine squad. However, their issue is not the unit itself but its lack of delivery.

Therefore, I made up a new exciting and equally dangerous vehicle that has a rule called "explosive assault vehicle", I assume you can guess what it does but for details please download this very simple chaos space marine codex (still WIP):

http://www.fancodices.com/ChaosSpaceMarinesCodex.pdf

I think the rules I presented will add a great deal of fun to a game, the opponent having to shoot down the rhinos before they deliver the berzerkers, and the chaos player will hope not to loose too many berzerkers by his/her own detonations (khorne does not like cowards).

You present a valid point but I doubt even the world eaters are idiot enough to use explosive transports.

Delivery of cc units is an issue for every army, and to put it bluntly, none of them get any help with it and neither should we.

Saying this, a chaos drop pod is not unrealistic or unreasonable, and would help zerkers a lot.

I looked up the lore and I see no reason why chaos space marines would not get access to standard drop pods, strange that GW has not added them to the codex.

I will add a drop pod as an option, however, I think we have to be careful, a berzeker heavy list arriving by drop pod could easily become over-powered.

PS. Chaos space marines are by definition mad, specially khorne/word eaters berzerker, I am pretty sure they would have no problem using an explosive transport.

flodihn wrote:I looked up the lore and I see no reason why chaos space marines would not get access to standard drop pods, strange that GW has not added them to the codex.

I will add a drop pod as an option, however, I think we have to be careful, a berzeker heavy list arriving by drop pod could easily become over-powered.

PS. Chaos space marines are by definition mad, specially khorne/word eaters berzerker, I am pretty sure they would have no problem using an explosive transport.

They are anger driven, yes but they're not frothing at the mouth crazy mad. If they were, the World Eaters would have died out centuries ago or be confined to one single planet while Berzerkers in general would be stupidly easy to deal with. You'd just lead them around with a carrot (not literally a carrot mind you) and walk them right into a firing range. Ah, problem solved. It's why I disliked the 3.5 codex Berserkers so much. They were functionally slowed and in reality would never be a threat to anyone with an once of tactical ability. In order for the World Eaters and Berzerkers to remain a viable threat, they would absolutely without recourse or option MUST have been able to create and maintain societal cohesion in order to achieve the requirements needed to launch and maintain interstellar ships of any kind to say nothing of a military operation on the scale of inter-planetary war.

Blackskull wrote:I have a horrible headache, had a lot of fights to sort out.
but the gaming was simply awesome

game 1 featured Dark angels vs Chaos Revamped 1500pts
chaos used a 10 man berserker squad with 5 chain glaives (due to the wording the champion was carrying one)
their was also a 10 man squad of the new blend of thousand sons (not sure what they thought about it when I gave them the rules but their was much nodding)

Game 2 ME and Chaos revamped vs Chaos revamped 1500pts
Annoyingly I left my list at the club but I had 15 man thousand sons squad to guard my sorcerer, opponent iron warrior player with raider mounted berserker squad with all chain glaives, and a tzeentchian sorcerer

then we had a discussion on rules, amended a few and the 2 games had rematches with the other opponent (I played against dark angels)

Berserker summery
game 1
unfortunately met a sticky end against some deathwing knights turn 2 (DA player took no chances) did nothing but move up all game.

Game 2
I got massacred, tzeentchian gateway was used to fire a land raider into my face from stationary so it still fires all weapons as it had not moved in the movement phase (but rather the shooting phase). the lucky sod rolled 3 1s on S7 hits for his sorcerer and saved 2 so the sorcerer was still alive. then the bezerkers came out and killed
a predator
a defiler
my warlord
and the thousand sons.
after this we sat down and had a discussion about chain glaives, and fluff.

OUR PROPOSALS
Berserkers have FNP in cc, it fits with the fluff as berserkers have been sliced in half yet still continue to hack the legs off anyone within reach, incorporate into blazing charge to avoid over stuffing with rules

price raised to 20pts per model

Berzerkers gain a special weapons table that any model can take from. they get 1 weapon +1 for every 5 models (so 3 at 10) the weapons pts values are listed below.
chain glaive 10pts
lightning claw 10pts
power weapon 10pts
power fist 20pts
Redsun blade 20pts
S user Ap - (daemon weapon)

Redsun blade [fluff courtesy of mark (dark angel player) who designed the weapon]
these weapons were first designed by Warpsmith Redsun, who found that forging a blade from the brass of a juggernaut and engraving it with runes to khorne allowed it to function as a rudimentary soul trap for the creation of a daemon weapon. while unsuitable for the confinement of greater daemons like the true weapons of legend the blades could confine a lesser demon if only for a brief time. before battle a berserker must summon a daemon and drive the blade through its chest before combat. the blade is then kept in a blood filled sheath to appease the newly contained demon, the act of drawing one in cc results in a great blood spray and soiling of many trousers.

with the new rules in place the games continued (note thousand sons were also modified in this time)

Game 3 (chaos revamped vs iron warriors)
the iron warriors had to modify the load out of the berserkers, he opted for a chain glaive champion and 2 Redsun blades. his opponent dropped 2 glaives and replaced one for a power fist on his champ and then modded his terminators with the remaining points.

the iron warrior fired the land raider up (sorcerer died) turn 1 chaos then moved in with the thousand sons teleporting and after a lucky lascannon destroyed the raider (no zerkers were harmed) the sons boltered the crap out of the zerkers killing 6 (the crater left by the raider provided great cover) seeing that their was only 4 left the sons decided to charge. BIG MISTAKE counter attack was successful and due to the placement of the aspiring sorcerer he was killed by overwatch fire. the zerkers also still had all the special weapons left, end result 8 sons dead, zekers no casualty's made all the fnp rolls. iron warriors turn saw the death of one bezerker and the end of the thousand sons. they consolidated towards some cultists who managed to kill 2 the following turn with autogun fire (fail). the last one charged in with his redsun blade, which then decided to kill him. (sigh)

Game 4 (me vs dark angels)
no berserkers were harmed, or even used in the playing of this game.


Thousand sons summery
game 1
proved to be the ultimate marine killers, but stupidly hard to kill, end of the game despite being absolutely hammered they still had 7 marines left, including sorcerer, due to musical wounds. termicide units worked in breaking lascannons and the like so they had to try kill them with bolter fire which didn't go so well, even plasma proved meh when fighting them. sulking ensued.

game 2
was awful sons were the first to be charged by the chain glaive monsters and over 2 turns they were all killed along with my sorcerer, to try and save them I charged my defiler in and he bit the dust too.

OUR PROPOSALS
we were left with a choice, nerf or raise points, we chose to nerf.

we added one fluff laced rule to nerf the sons
Dust To Dust
attacks that ignore this models armor save also inflict instant death.

being animated constructs of sealed armor breaking them open is frankly the worst thing you can do to a son. bolter fire and the like is still a laughable attempt to kill a son but plasma is not and neither is rending, although the aspiring sorcerer often takes those hits with the 3+ invun he carries

Game 3
DtD was responsible for the deaths of half the squad due to the berserker charge having a chain glaive. but charging was a really bad decision...berserkers just rock

Game 4
had to be very careful due to plasma, and power weapon vulnerabilities but they performed great, killing 2 full tactical squads and capping an objective, gateway is a brilliant way to move these guys and if you position characters correctly you can benefit form the 3++ save they carry to prevent plasma death (unfortunately I lost the aspiring sorcerer doing just that). all in all a fun game and while the dark angle play admitted they were very good he didn't think them the impossible bulwark of death that was previously being used (I had 3 sons left at the end).


NOTE ON TERRAIN
the other club members were playing a cities of death campaign and stole most of it so cover was fairly scarce and featured a beer can and a lunchbox hill

Jesus, I'm lucky if I can get in that many games in a month.

So yeah I think the DtD rule is a good way to go. I'll put that on the next version of the card. How is the Sorcerer getting a 3++? He should have a 4+.

And I was looking at the Berzerker card in light of your results. There are one of two things I can think of in response to your results, well actually several things but first things first.

The Chain Glave needs to be changed. Either the price needs to be increased, or the rules need to change to comply with a 10 point price tag. but S7, AP3... yeah. That's brutally cheap for 10 points. Personally I'm thinking AP4 with the unwieldy rule in any subsequent round of combat.

Thoughts?

Also did you try the Blazing Charge or the Ravager blades?

flodihn wrote:I think all of you bring valid points to the issue with thousands sons and khorne berzerkers.

I have reviewed the posts here and the read the results of the player tests.

Honestly, I think the khorne berzekers are fairly priced if you compare to an upgraded space marine squad. However, their issue is not the unit itself but its lack of delivery.

Therefore, I made up a new exciting and equally dangerous vehicle that has a rule called "explosive assault vehicle", I assume you can guess what it does but for details please download this very simple chaos space marine codex (still WIP):

http://www.fancodices.com/ChaosSpaceMarinesCodex.pdf

I think the rules I presented will add a great deal of fun to a game, the opponent having to shoot down the rhinos before they deliver the berzerkers, and the chaos player will hope not to loose too many berzerkers by his/her own detonations (khorne does not like cowards).

flodihn wrote:I looked up the lore and I see no reason why chaos space marines would not get access to standard drop pods, strange that GW has not added them to the codex.

I will add a drop pod as an option, however, I think we have to be careful, a berzeker heavy list arriving by drop pod could easily become over-powered.

PS. Chaos space marines are by definition mad, specially khorne/word eaters berzerker, I am pretty sure they would have no problem using an explosive transport.

Yeah, see my prior comment about the CSMs being mad. And like wise, using an exploding transport... yeah. I'm sorry but I just don't see that happening. Now, packing a transport with explosives and using that to break up a formation or gun line I can see happening.



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|| DIVIDER PUT IN FOR EASE OF CONTENT MANAGEMENT ||
|| TOPIC: Revamped units ||
|| REVISED UNITS: Thousand Sons V.3 ||
|| REVISED UNITS: Khorne Berzerkers V.2 ||
|| REVISED UNITS: Chaos Rhino V.1 ||
|| ADDED UNITS: Chaos Drop Pod V.1 ||
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So, did some revamp on the Thousand sons unit. The Sorcerer was NOT supposed to have a 3++. He was supposed to have a 4++ so fixed that. Added the "All is dust" rule. Changed the name from Dust to Dust as a reference to the opening line in the "A Thousand Sons" book.



Revised the Chain Glave based on feedback from Black Skull.


I actually kind of liked the suggestion of an idea that Flodihn made with an exploding rhino... but not as a transport. So I added an upgrade option to the rhino.


And I created an entry for a Chaos Drop Pod:



And just for reference, the revamped Tzeentch Powers table.

hate to be picky but the Khorn berserker jokes are getting out of hand (please add the e on the card)

secondly the extra pistol should not be free as it doubles their shooting power at no effect on cc (gunslinger) the only reason why my players didn't run gunzerker was because they were distracted by chain glaives

could you possible write chain glaives as
S +1 AP3 two handed
ap weapons are important to cc squads, and these are berserkers who are the best in this respective field, look at death company their blood angel equivalents, they are packing, put a limit on glaive numbers though. and make it so they swap pistol and cc for one, then you don't have to omit the blazing charge so much

FnP in cc suits the butchers nails fluff as berserkers feel very little else unless killing, maiming, or burning. it also gives defence against hordes.

the thousand sons points card doesn't add up 5 sons cost 115pts yet the unit base cost is 130? was this intentional, tzeentches favour is meant to be every 5 models to account for the high charge requirement of the powers.
Also RAW allows multiple sorcerers may want to curb that

blazing charge didn't see much use as if you read the reports the only berserker charge involved chain glaives, oddly people seemed to want to charge the zerkers which actually makes a lot of sense as on the charge these guys are unstoppable.

 Blackskull wrote:
hate to be picky but the Khorn berserker jokes are getting out of hand (please add the e on the card)

secondly the extra pistol should not be free as it doubles their shooting power at no effect on cc (gunslinger) the only reason why my players didn't run gunzerker was because they were distracted by chain glaives

could you possible write chain glaives as
S +1 AP3 two handed
ap weapons are important to cc squads, and these are berserkers who are the best in this respective field, look at death company their blood angel equivalents, they are packing, put a limit on glaive numbers though. and make it so they swap pistol and cc for one, then you don't have to omit the blazing charge so much

FnP in cc suits the butchers nails fluff as berserkers feel very little else unless killing, maiming, or burning. it also gives defence against hordes.

the thousand sons points card doesn't add up 5 sons cost 115pts yet the unit base cost is 130? was this intentional, tzeentches favour is meant to be every 5 models to account for the high charge requirement of the powers.
Also RAW allows multiple sorcerers may want to curb that

blazing charge didn't see much use as if you read the reports the only berserker charge involved chain glaives, oddly people seemed to want to charge the zerkers which actually makes a lot of sense as on the charge these guys are unstoppable.

okay, I'm confused. The berzerkers weren't out of hand when they a S7 AP3 striking at initiative on the charge, but they are out of hand when they only have when they have a S7 AP4 that strikes on intitiative only on the charge and otherwise causes them to strike at Initiative 1.....? isn't that backwards?

the out of hand part was the missing "e" on the card that had everyone behaving like 4 year olds and saying the name wrong on purpose because that's how it was spelt on the card

chain glaives though I have mixed opinions on as 2 profiles have been proposed

S +1 Ap3 two handed :
which I think is ok, providing taking one removes the pistol, you then trade in for 3 S6 ap3 attacks on charge compared to the 4 S5 ap- attacks and 2 S4 ap5 shots from the pistol (factoring in blazing charge)

or S +2 ap4 two handed unwieldy*
essentially a 2 handed power maul with variable unwieldy, power mauls are 5pts more on the wargear list but Im not sure that a 5 pt reduction is worth the unwieldy/ two-handed debuff especially on a model that has only 1 attack base. this should be cheaper, around 6-7 pts

Blackskull wrote:hate to be picky but the Khorn berserker jokes are getting out of hand (please add the e on the card)

secondly the extra pistol should not be free as it doubles their shooting power at no effect on cc (gunslinger) the only reason why my players didn't run gunzerker was because they were distracted by chain glaives

could you possible write chain glaives as
S +1 AP3 two handed
ap weapons are important to cc squads, and these are berserkers who are the best in this respective field, look at death company their blood angel equivalents, they are packing, put a limit on glaive numbers though. and make it so they swap pistol and cc for one, then you don't have to omit the blazing charge so much

Can I? with out question yes I can. the more relevant question is "Will I?" and the answer is yes I will provided I'm convinced of the need to do so. You make several good points that I'm taking into account with the new revision. Pistols: yup. They're gonna cost ya 2 points per model.

As for the Chain Glave/pistol point, I can understand your reasoning and I don't disagree with it, but I feel that it's sacrificing tactical ability for vague fluff reasons. The Blazing Charge was always written as excluding the use of a Chain Glave. If you charged with a chain glave, you could not perform a blazing charge .That's been in there since v.1 of this unit for this project. So with that in mind, why should you sacrifice your ability to shoot at all just because you've got a big axe?

Blackskull wrote:hate to be picky but the Khorn berserker jokes are getting out of hand (please add the e on the card)
FnP in cc suits the butchers nails fluff as berserkers feel very little else unless killing, maiming, or burning. it also gives defence against hordes.

I can certainly see the logic of feel no pain, though I do have to point out that I've heard an argument made for every cult troop having feel no pain so at the risk of sounding rather douchish, and I do apologize for it upfront, I'm going to have to ask for a better justification then the fluff. Also if we add FnP to the unit, that means they now have Fearless, Blazing Charge, Furious Charge, and FnP. Not exactly saying there should be a limit of how many special rules there can be for one unit but just saying that is something to keep in mind. Of course that being said, the Thousand Sons currently have 10 special rules on their card so... yeah.

Blackskull wrote:
the thousand sons points card doesn't add up 5 sons cost 115pts yet the unit base cost is 130? was this intentional, tzeentches favour is meant to be every 5 models to account for the high charge requirement of the powers.
Also RAW allows multiple sorcerers may want to curb that

No, the 130 price tag it was not intention. That was a hold-over from when I originally typed up the card using the information from the current codex. As for the 5 versus 10 model in Tzeentchs Favor, really every 5 models gets you an extra warp charge? That means at 20 models strong, that level 1 Aspiring Sorcerer will be generating 5 tokens a turn. And god forbid anyone sticks Ahirman with the unit. He'll be popping off 9 tokens a turn.

As for the multi-sorcerer point... that's a bit harder to answer. Yes I did write it in such a way to allow you to take multiple sorcerers in the unit. Fluff wise I don't have a problem with this. If someone wants to sink the 120 extra points to plop 3 Sorcerers in the unit I see no real reason to tell them they can not do that. That being said it is a point that's been sitting on my mind and I can't really decide yah or nay about it yet. I want to see a better pro/con break down of it before I change that rule.

Blackskull wrote:
blazing charge didn't see much use as if you read the reports the only berserker charge involved chain glaives, oddly people seemed to want to charge the zerkers which actually makes a lot of sense as on the charge these guys are unstoppable.

You kind of glazed over almost all of the details in your info so I wasn't sure if Blazing Charge just never came into effect, or if it did and you didn't note it. Thus I asked. And yes, catching Zerks flat footed is the idea. You don't want those monsters charging you.

Blackskull wrote:the out of hand part was the missing "e" on the card that had everyone behaving like 4 year olds and saying the name wrong on purpose because that's how it was spelt on the card

chain glaives though I have mixed opinions on as 2 profiles have been proposed

S +1 Ap3 two handed :
which I think is ok, providing taking one removes the pistol, you then trade in for 3 S6 ap3 attacks on charge compared to the 4 S5 ap- attacks and 2 S4 ap5 shots from the pistol (factoring in blazing charge)

or S +2 ap4 two handed unwieldy*
essentially a 2 handed power maul with variable unwieldy, power mauls are 5pts more on the wargear list but Im not sure that a 5 pt reduction is worth the unwieldy/ two-handed debuff especially on a model that has only 1 attack base. this should be cheaper, around 6-7 pts

I'll look at other codecies for comparable pricing thoughts on that.


As an aside I've compiled a list of units and will be updating them with the current version each weeks. if it lists "(codex)" next to the entry it means we have made no changes to the unit what so ever at this time and that it is still as it appears in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

HQ
Abaddon the Despoiler (Codex)
Huron Black Heart (Codex)
Kharn the Betrayer (Codex)
Ahriman (Codex)
Typhus (Codex)
Lucius the Eternal (Codex)
Fabius Bile (Codex)
Chaos Lord (Codex)
Sorcerer (Codex)
Daemon Prince (Codex)
Warp Smith (Codex)
Dark Apostle (Codex)
Troops (Codex)
Chaos Space Marines (Codex)
Chaos Cultists(Codex)
Elites
Chosen (Codex)
Possessed (Codex)
Chaos Terminators (Codex)
Helbrute (Codex)
Mutilator (Codex)
Khorne Berzerkers V.3
Thousand Sons V.3
Plague Marines (Codex)
Noise Marines (Codex)
Dedicated Transport
Chaos Rhino V.1
Chaos Drop Pod V.1
Fast attack
Chaos Bikers (codex)
Chaos Spawn (codex)
Raptors (codex)
Warp Talons (codex)
Heldrake (codex)
Heavy Support
Havocs (codex)
Obliterator (codex)
Defiler (codex)
Forgefiend (codex)
Maulerfiend (codex)
Chaos Land Raider (codex)
Chaos Vindicator (codex)
Chaos Predator (codex)

Psychic Discipline Tables
Tzeentch Powers V.1
Nurgle Powers (Codex)
Slaanesh Powers (Codex)



Also, do we want to use the modifications I made in the Codex originally as the basis for the new codex or do we want to use the standard Codex as the basis for this?

yes the sorcerer will have 5 tokens and will only be able to use a maximum of 4, seeing as he has one tzeentch power.

even with a lvl3 sorcerer with 7 tokens can only cast one tzeentch power most of the time as more than half of them are witchfires

Arhiman is the only one who can seriously abuse this and frankly he should be allowed, the guy costs as much as a land raider and compered to every other character at that cost none of them are T4 without eternal warrior, Ahriman is on squishy guy and should have decent rules to back him up, yet he doesn't.

with psykers its mastery lvl that counts and that dictates how many powers you can cast, they can have all the warp charge they like but they are never going to use it all in one turn.

multiple psykers in the same unit causes problems, for then you remove the limiters in place on the tzeentch table. we have already had an incident were using an aspiring sorcerer and regular sorcerer a thousand sons unit was able to teleport into rapid fire range, kill a unit and then teleport back behind a building, aspiring used the first teleport than the sorcerer made the second. we are working on a nerf for this as that wasn't fair or fun to watch.

solutions so far
make range D6 per charge (hugely disliked)
A unit can only be teleported once each turn (the one we went with)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a friend of mine came up with another idea, the unit rolls a scatter for direction and on a direct hit you choose the direction, you can expend an additional warp charge to re roll the scatter

 Blackskull wrote:
yes the sorcerer will have 5 tokens and will only be able to use a maximum of 4, seeing as he has one tzeentch power.

even with a lvl3 sorcerer with 7 tokens can only cast one tzeentch power most of the time as more than half of them are witchfires

Arhiman is the only one who can seriously abuse this and frankly he should be allowed, the guy costs as much as a land raider and compered to every other character at that cost none of them are T4 without eternal warrior, Ahriman is on squishy guy and should have decent rules to back him up, yet he doesn't.

with psykers its mastery lvl that counts and that dictates how many powers you can cast, they can have all the warp charge they like but they are never going to use it all in one turn.

multiple psykers in the same unit causes problems, for then you remove the limiters in place on the tzeentch table. we have already had an incident were using an aspiring sorcerer and regular sorcerer a thousand sons unit was able to teleport into rapid fire range, kill a unit and then teleport back behind a building, aspiring used the first teleport than the sorcerer made the second. we are working on a nerf for this as that wasn't fair or fun to watch.

solutions so far
make range D6 per charge (hugely disliked)
A unit can only be teleported once each turn (the one we went with)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a friend of mine came up with another idea, the unit rolls a scatter for direction and on a direct hit you choose the direction, you can expend an additional warp charge to re roll the scatter

okay color me convinced on both points. I think just limiting the number of times a single unit can be teleported in a turn will be the best and simplest way to deal with it.

Agreed, we got another meet up soon, anything in particular you would like to see tested?

 Blackskull wrote:
Agreed, we got another meet up soon, anything in particular you would like to see tested?

another one? good god man. Where do you live? I'm lucky if I get a half dozen games a month.