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So I read the lore of Cypher and the DA cause they're boss and by far the faction I like the best, but I am annoyed that Cypher can be used by almost every army BUT the DA which does make sense lore wise but also kinda doesn't. See they don't know exactly who he is or even if he is for sure an enemy or not as he appears and disappears all the time and from what I can find he has yet to actually be seen in combat with the Imperium at all, he just kinda shows up and then things happen around him.

I am looking for a way to use Cypher in a DA army anyway with a successor chapter and I have a decent idea of how this could in theory be accomplished.

As the DA are hellbent on redeeming themselves and in a sense "Saving" the souls of those Angels who were corrupted by chaos and manipulated by Luther I kinda created an opportunity for them to be reunified with the Legion. Rather than outright killing them after the Fallen repent, the DA seeing that the Imperium is beset by enemies on all sides with humanity on the verge of annihilation by any number of enemies, the DA offer the Fallen who repent a second chance, an opportunity to make up for their mistakes.

From there I would have the entire Fallen faction under the supervision of one of the higher ups in the DA with strict orders to kill any Fallen who disobey or do anything that might be construed as bad in the Legion's eyes. Being that the Fallen were at one point corrupted by Chaos, like Luther and Fulgrim, who after extremely stressful situations, Fulgrim killing a brother and Luther nearly killing Lion, the hold Chaos had on these men snapped and they seemed to regain a semblance of who they were before, albeit a little bit insane in the case of Luther and filled with grief in the case of Fulgrim.

These "redeemed" Fallen would suffer psychological and spiritual maladies as a result of their corruption by Chaos but would retain, for the most part a semblance of who they were before they fell, again with some major mental side effects ranging from insomnia to absolute psychoticness. But the Fallen who manage to retain that part of themselves that made them into the men the originally were form this new successor chapter. To keep them from corrupting the larger part of the Legion, this particular chapter is stationed as close to enemy forces as possible and away from anyone they could corrupt should the backslide again. The most loyal and batlehardened DA are their security force who will kill and have killed those who let the effects of Chaos consume them or who show any side of backsliding.

This would make the core of the successor chapter of the DA that I have named the "Redeemed Angels." Name still needs working

Now for Cypher. AS GW has intentionally left his lore and true allegiance and even who he is a mystery, I am going to make my own lore with how he ties in with this new legion. I have made him a neutral player, someone who is working for their own ends at the expense of both the Imperium and Chaos, someone bent on eliminating the weakest members of both sides in the hopes of creating a more powerful and battle heartened army (still tweaking that part as an alliance between Chaos and the Imperium would be difficult to achieve) to fight the growing threat that is the Ork, Necron and Tyranid horde, the ladder, in my lore anyway, has sent hive fleets even larger than Leviathan towards the Milky Way.

Cypher, being a gifted psyker though I am not going to give him any psyker powers to use in combat as that is too op simply has prescience and is aware of what is coming and is taking steps to ensure the survival of the galaxy as a whole.

Anyway, Cypher willingly accepts capture and repents/explains why he left the legion so long ago and makes his former battle brothers aware of the encroaching threat of everything else as well as some, but not all of his reasons for showing up all over the galaxy and causing Chaos wherever he goes. He is assigned to the legion and is under close scrutiny as he is still not trusted and is under direct supervision of Azrael (he's the only beastly dude I have atm as a figure who would be strong enough to beat him)

Needs a lil work lore wise but this would be the general idea. Cypher and his motives are an utter mystery to both Chaos and the Imperium from what I have seen in his lore so who is to say which side he is truly on, if any. Also, I find it a waste for the DA to kill those Fallen who repent (truthfully anyway) as these are indeed viable sources of information.

Also I was playing with the idea of the Redeemed being able to sense members of the Fallen who are then hunted down by the legion as a whole.

What do you guys think?

Well I think lore wise there is certainly some subtleties you need to consider.

Firstly, consider the ironic nature the DA's antipathy towards Cypher. Cypher is a wayward chapter brother who is entirely shrouded in mystery, enigmatic, who's actions are often inscrutable to outsiders. He literally is the DA's, but is their most hated foe because he represents that what they most fear within their own ranks: unpredictability. Ultimately the story of the DA has most to do with the hypocrisy of secret societies. That being that what most threatens them most is often that what they thrive upon: inscrutability.

That being said I like the twist on the cypher character. Having cypher ally with the DA helps emphasize the ambiguous motives of his character, and how morality is relative in the year 40,000. Some ideas that could really fluff up the core of this army:

1) I'm not sure having Cypher return to the fold is believable. The Dark Angels are an institution that values loyalty above all things even lobotamizing failed recruits so as to keep the most mundane of facts about The Rock secret. In an institution that values loyalty and reliability there is no "return to the fold" because Cypher has already lost his right by acting indipendently, and without direct permission: thus an untrustworthy asset. Granted, you acknowledged this problem and made the return tense, and full of mistrust, but I think any formal return to the fold would be... unbelievable.

This is all not to say this is a bad idea, infact I think its an awesome idea, but it needs some fluffification. Here's an idea for a backstory. Feel free to disregard it if I'm hedging in on your personal steaze:

Cypher in his ambiguous wanderings has tracked down a space hulk formed from the mangled remains of Lion El'Jonson's fleet at the Battle for Caliban. Lost in the Warp for untold millennia is company of Dark Angels perserved by the impossible chronologies of the warp. To these men but days have passed since the destruction of Caliban in the massive warp storm. Ten thousand years later Cypher makes contact with this Lost Company in hopes of discovering the truth behind the rumors concerning Lion El'Jonson's loyalties during the crusade.

Led by Cypher to The Rock these men are made to tell everything about the battle for Caliban save for the identity of their secret benefactor: Cypher. The truths of the battle are too shocking to ever be told aloud and the company is imprisoned deep within the Rock.

Until each soldier was subjected to the most terrible and painful tortures of the Interrogator Chaplains we're they aloud to go free.Their loyalty was proved, and the taint of chaos un-found the most worthy of the company were aloud to go free and found their new chapter: The Redeemed.

Formed entirely out of veterans who have been tortured to within inches of their life the Redeemed are stalwart relics of the Horus Heresy. Forever keeping the secret of their past the Redeemed must always stay two steps ahead of the Inquisition, and even further ahead of their brothers the Dark Angels. For if they ever learned who was truly behind their return, they will all be killed.


So basically Cypher is the secret Chapter Master of the Redeemed with the found Company Master acting as his lieutenant and pretending to lead the chapter. I think the ambiguous, possibly tainted, possibly loyal, definitely mysterious nature of these guys fits best with the Cypher theme. Plus it gives a grizzled, veteran theme to the army with everyone receiving "inner circle." Or atleast most are veterans. And you get to use cool looking Horus Heresy era models and gear!

Just a thought. Sorry if it was really long, I just really liked the idea of a Cypher focused chapter and ran with it.

I like your suggestions and you are right, i is a little unbelievable that he is simply accepted back into the ranks. I was also toying with an idea of him making his own chapter of the DA out of those he recruits while he is traveling across the galaxy and the main DA army hears about the Redeemed and sees them as an affront to who the name of the DA.

From their I could use them as an unknown when it comes to allegiance. Then they would simply be Cypher's own chapter of the DA directly under control of him and would carry out whatever plan he is working on throughout the galaxy.

An alternative one but I think I like your angle better as Cypher is so associated with secrecy that it almost begs for a secret leader of a chapter.

The story needs work which I am happily working on, now I need to find a way to make it legitimate in game. As I will be still using the DA codex as I friggin love their army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, where can I get Heresy era marine models

Forgeworld has a bunch of Heresy Era models, I've never purchased any and have no idea what the financial angle is, but I know they have a whole horus heresy line. Besides that you could convert some of the less-chaos-y CSM to be heresy era normal SM. Again never done it, but likely possible.

In terms of making it legitimate in game... Play them as a successor chapter to the DA. So that means all the same rules and whatever. Now that gets a bit hairy when we think fluff-wise how associated they are with the DA. If they aren't associated at all then all the Inner Circle, Deathwing Ravenwing stuff doens't make much sense. Because you really need to be part of the DA inorder to be part of the Inner Circle.

You could play them as a C:SM chapter with your choice of chapter tactics which would be easier, but wouldn't allow access to those sexy CA specialty units we know and love.

Maybe it's an existing DA successor chapter that is being secretly controlled by cypher. Like only inner circle members of the chapter know the identity of their master, and that's the secret they are indoctrinated into instead of the whole "unforgiven" thing.

Riffing off of that idea, maybe theyre whole duty is to safeguard an ancient Pre-Heresy archive of DA secrets on some far-flung recruiting world. When infact that archive is the contents of the "Enigma" chamber Cypher was apparently the guardian of. Thus Cypher still curates his collection of encoded histories and chapter correspondence, but is hiding in plain sight as the Chapter Archavist or something like that. All the while he pulls the strings and is actually the chapter master.

Yeah a friend and I were discussing that earlier. I can't have him as a rogue leader of a rogue chapter as they wouldnt have the RW or the DW so it'll most likely end up as a shadowy leader that only the most trusted know about

Good call. A day out I'm still loving the shadowy Cypher army.

An update on this.

I know he cannot be a warlord but does he still:
a) take away a leadership from my warlord
b) can he be used as an HQ unit or is he an elite

Well since this is your Universe you are playing it, it's still dicey. What is next? We find out that Cypher is one of the Missing Primarchs?

You are changing too much. It's one of the things you just don't do. Cypher will NEVER ally or be with Dark Angels. But here is what you can do.

Is the Dark Angels really the Fallen like it was said in one of the first DA novels? Are the Fallen really the loyalists and the DA are really the traitors? Play off that. This way you can say you are playing Fallen who they believe are really the Loyalists while the DA are really the Traitors.

After being hunted for almost 10 000 years they have adapted to their fellow brothers, by using the same tactics as them. So this way they have the Deathwing and Ravenwing as well. While this is not that great it's better than saying Cypher leads DA into battle.

OR do a Redemption army. I like what you said about the DA using Rependent Fallen. Thing is a lot of DA players will never accept this. Just like saying Cypher is the son of the Emperor or is a missing Primarch, just something that is a NO NO when making your own chapter.

So how about Cypher making a chapter in the image of DA? The chapter that is lead by Cypher, The fallen become Repented. The Repented Angels? The Forgiven? Work on the name later. But these would be Fallen who are Forgiven by Cypher to continue the work for the Emperor. So they just act like regular DA now, but would still be considered Falled by the REAL Dark Angels.

So this way, this Cypher leads a squad of DA go after Fallen, and if they don't repent, he kills them or gives them to the DA to handle.

This way, we still keep the lore of the Dark Angels, nothing is changed there, and you still get to play your DA. Nobody wants to hear that "their" DA have allied with Cypher when its not true.

I think a more interesting twist would be that the dark angels suffer a great and unexpected defeat. The chapters heroes lie dead, the deathwing and ravenwing are in tatters. The lesser brothers without a course to take. Literally the chapter falling apart. Cypher seeing this unexpected turn of events returns to his chapter and requests to lead them.

Cypher May be a fallen Angel but he is a senior brother and a capable commander. Without much choice the chapter bows low to the man they once hunted and the dark angels set about performing a mass culling and rebuilding. And they go about returning the chapter to its former sheen and magesty.

And if that fluff doesn't fly then we could settle on cypher returning to his old ways and abandoning hi post to fulfill his plans once more.

Cypher clearly doesn't want to see the dark angels destroyed. He returned the helm of the lion and the sword of redemption. He still carries the lion sword. He wouldnt do these things if he wanted to see the 1st chapter leveled.

That's how I interpret bringing cypher back into the da's. This whole idea of the "redeemed" someone scribbled out is nonsense. Cypher has plans; great and vast plans and I suspect he is in league with Magnus himself as to the intentions. I'm thinking cypher is meerly a vessel for something powerful. Perhaps a living gate of sorts. Capable of bridging a gap between the warp and terra itself.

Why go through fleets and armies, wage senseless bloody war. When you can appear out of nowhere and conquer terra in a single day?

Davor wrote:
Well since this is your Universe you are playing it, it's still dicey. What is next? We find out that Cypher is one of the Missing Primarchs?

You are changing too much. It's one of the things you just don't do. Cypher will NEVER ally or be with Dark Angels. But here is what you can do.

Is the Dark Angels really the Fallen like it was said in one of the first DA novels? Are the Fallen really the loyalists and the DA are really the traitors? Play off that. This way you can say you are playing Fallen who they believe are really the Loyalists while the DA are really the Traitors.

After being hunted for almost 10 000 years they have adapted to their fellow brothers, by using the same tactics as them. So this way they have the Deathwing and Ravenwing as well. While this is not that great it's better than saying Cypher leads DA into battle.

OR do a Redemption army. I like what you said about the DA using Rependent Fallen. Thing is a lot of DA players will never accept this. Just like saying Cypher is the son of the Emperor or is a missing Primarch, just something that is a NO NO when making your own chapter.

So how about Cypher making a chapter in the image of DA? The chapter that is lead by Cypher, The fallen become Repented. The Repented Angels? The Forgiven? Work on the name later. But these would be Fallen who are Forgiven by Cypher to continue the work for the Emperor. So they just act like regular DA now, but would still be considered Falled by the REAL Dark Angels.

So this way, this Cypher leads a squad of DA go after Fallen, and if they don't repent, he kills them or gives them to the DA to handle.

This way, we still keep the lore of the Dark Angels, nothing is changed there, and you still get to play your DA. Nobody wants to hear that "their" DA have allied with Cypher when its not true.

Been working on it. Don't like the idea of Cypher joining with the DA at all actually, too weird and too many die hards will get their panties in a bunch.

Toying with the idea of Cypher being already within the DA and the DA aren't aware, for instance Interrogators/Chaplains wear masks/helmets most of the time and nobody has seen Cypher's face anyway and Cypher works from within the DA to purge them of their weakness. This idea needs more work but it came to me after reading some more background lore on DA leadership.

One that I am leaning to now comes partially from lore, when Lion sent those angels back to Caliban all those years ago, the majority of them being native to Caliban while the Terran born DA, more loyal to the Emperor as a whole whereas the Caliban DA are more loyal to Lion and Caliban as a whole. Cypher was one of these DA on Caliban before the Heresy began and he had access to knowledge, hidden knowledge that many in the DA past and present simply do not have. After events play out and all of the "Fallen" are sucked through the warp, Cypher appears, how and why is a mystery to everyone but Cypher and whatever mysterious benefactor he has that keeps saving him when he is about to be caught.

Anyway, Cypher, having lived during the time of the original Caliban, in a time before the DA were the DA, when they were the Order, being one of the last people alive in the 40k universe who was a part of Caliban, (this is where things get tricky) he wants to bring the DA back to who and what they were BEFORE Lion turned to the Emperor. Can't remember the exact lines in the book atm, but a great majority of the Calibanite DA were not happy about joining with the Emperor, in fact an assassination attempt was attempted early on and later on, after Lion turned his back on those who were the most loyal to HIM, mistrust began to fester, doubt for the intentions of the Emperor and the Empire while faith in Lion was still rampant, it would dwindle until Luther fully convinced all that Lion had indeed turned on them in favor for the Imperium which leads to Luther seceding from the Empire.

Enough with the history lesson now.

Cypher, having lived through these events and seen firsthand the actions of both sides during this conflict and what drew both sides to do what they did, seeing as neither is innocent in this, though Luther does take a lot of the blame, even when it was not him who fired the first shot. Cypher doesn't see himself or the other fallen as really "Fallen," rather he sees those who went with Lion and seemed to abandon the land they came from and those who were closest to them as the real "Fallen" as they have forsaken what it truly means to be a DA, to be a member of the order and most importantly to know where they really come from, i.e., Caliban.

One of the lore things I remember from some other legion off -hand is the resentment natives to their Primarch's world have for those born on Tera or other lands. They are viewed in hostility and mistrust which helps lore wise for this angle of my own lore adaptation.

Now to the Chapter. Cypher is recruiting former Fallen, those Calibanites whose loyalty was always to Caliban and to Lion, rather than the Emperor and the Imperium. Not only Fallen though, he is recruiting those Astartes who are disgruntled or in doubt over the secrecy and actions of members of their chapter, foremost among them would be the Grand Inquisitor whose actions alone would be enough to have the entire Legion wiped out if the Emperor found out.

As for my idea of the Redeemed as nonsense, it sounds a lot better than him having someone using him as a vessel, that idea has been played out in practically every fantasy story in history, so don't come insulting.

Cypher doesn't want the DA destroyed, he wants to return them to what they once were, before they turned to the Emperor. This and many other things I feel explain his actions justly. He does have a larger purpose as well and only time will tell what this is, but I like the idea of him forming his own chapter from those the primary DA see as Fallen. The conflict becomes then one of ideals, to follow the Emperor, or to follow their Primarch who they believe to be misguided.

Lore wise, none of this would have happened had Lion made the slightest effort to talk or even to notice those who were the most loyal to him. Maybe this is why he sent them back, maybe not, but if you read the lore and do some lore research, the Fallen would die for Lion first and foremost, secondly they would die for Caliban. On their list, the Emperor probably doesn't even take 3rd place.

This is just my most recent idea for Cypher. He is an interesting character that as a priority one for the DA is a waste if they won't actually see the things he is doing as something more than a danger. He knows their secrets and like any secret society, they are too afraid to have their secrets get out to realize that secrets are destroying who they are. Hence why I like the idea of Cypher recruiting Fallen to make his own, pure, DA legion, he has them spill secrets to make the DA frightened, to realize that without their secrets, they are hollow and corrupted, whereas he and his Fallen are what it means to truly be a DA.

This also fits into line with things I have read online with the DA not being a truly benevolent legion and maybe even touched by Chaos in a way that even they haven't fully realized yet.

That is great Zodiark, I like it a lot. Now the question is, are you going to use Deathwing and Ravenwing as well since these were made to hunt the Fallen.

If you are going to use them, I would like to see the fluff or explanation you are going to have on why they use it.

I am planning on it but this is where it gets even trickier. Ravenwing lore wise all seems to come from ancient tech discovered on Caliban which I could convert to my needs lore wise, the Deathwing on the otherhand is a whole new issue entirely.

Here I was thinking of recruiting disgruntled DA or having Cypher flat out steal the tech and use it on his own men.

A little Late to this, but I started a similar thread on another forum talking the same thing. Let's run Cypher with DA either as a Character or as an Allied unit leader.

So when I saw this I had to joined DakkaDakka forum just to throw my two cents in. I too believe that the fluff leaves too much room not to be able to bring Cypher into DA as a character. Zodlark I am all for this. So many positives for helping DA find other fallen, disrupting Chaos and evil by bringing in DA who are tracking him.

My things he is a master of disguise so why not have him be one of the master chaplains gone rogue or another senior member who after witnessing an interrogation wonders just how far the DAs have "Fallen" to hide their secrets.

The Caliban back Lore is awesome and I think you still run the Ravenwing to help find those other Space Marines who may have been cut off from the Legion when Caliban was destroyed or Fallen who have repented or whatever.

One such person that I can think of is Chapter Commander Merir Astelan who was tortured by Interrogator Chaplain Boreas in the beginning of the book "Angels of Darkness". it seems he was cut off from Caliban and when found they attacked his forces on Tharsis without question due to him being "Fallen" in their eyes.

Run Deathwing/Veterans Units, as they are all Veterans and as you said above drawn from throughout Dark Angel's Chapters.

You also touched on the name. How about "The Order of the Lion, Order of Caliban, Order of Angels, etc. Drawn from all chapters they would have access to all weapons and Chapter Tactics as well as Heresy era weapons and Dakka pending picking up others from outside of the Chapter as their Ravenwing finds them.

Lastly as the new 7th ED. Rules throw Fluff to the wind what can die hard DA players have to whine about if we come into our own Chapter or secret society within the DA Chapters.

I am more for internal Secret Order of Caliban/the Lion who bring others into their group and have Cypher meet with these troops to help reclaim the glory of the DA Legion, by breaking off or tactically manipulating orders to get the companies or squads loyal to him assigned missions to recruit or capture other fallen to bring in or exterminate with extreme prejudice.

What say you about that idea?

check my gallery out. I made a fallen da just post heresy army (on the run)...

TLR, why not just use a 30k army of DA with a moritat? He's more cypher than Cypher