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Daemon Factory definitely is something to be concerned about, but before we have too much fear lets make sure we are getting their limitations down and don't let the Daemons player unknowing gain any extra advantage. I've seen quite a bit of talk and misinformation regarding some of these points. Lets get it right so we can accurately address the threat that Daemon Factory represents.

Perils: Make sure that if they are a non Daemon that they Perils on any double, not just 6's and not just on successful castings.

One Power Attempt Per Unit: Only one attempt at any one specific power per unit per turn. No double attempts at the same power from any unit without a special rule allowing it.

Warp Charges: Make sure the player is not adding any Warp Charges to their pool from the Summoned Daemons. Yes, they generate their powers the turn they arrive and are able to manifest any non Conjuration power the turn they arrive, but they arrive after Warp Charges are collected and do not contribute to this turns Warp Charge Pool. They contribute normally the turn after they are summoned.

Arrive Via Deepstrike: Summoned Daemons arrive via Deepstrike and must follow all relevant limitations. "is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes." They effectively have arrived from Reserves via Deep Strike and cannot Move in the Movement phase, and cannot charge in the Assault phase. They may run or shoot. This is very relevant for Summoned Flying Monstrous Creatures.

Objective Secured: Conjured units are Scoring unit, but summoned Horrors, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, and Bloodletters are not Troops, they are conjured units and were not selected in a Troop FOC slot, and do not benefit from the Battleforged Objective Secured Special Rule. No permission is giving to assign a summoned unit to s FOC slot and therefore are a slot-less unit belonging to the Chaos Daemon's Faction.

Range of Summoning: Only Summoning and Incursion have a 12" range, measured from the Psycher. First model must be placed wholly within 12" and then scattered as normal. The range for Sacrifice and Possession is only 6". Note: If a unit suffers a DS mishap and goes into Ongoing Reserves it can be placed anywhere on the table when it arrives from Reserves in the following turns.

Cursed Earth only requires the first model be placed within 12" for No Scatter DS.

Solo Heralds: Heralds are summoned within 6". They cannot move and cannot join another unit the turn they arrive. They also cannot contribute to the Warp Charge pool the turn they arrive.

Summoned Bloodthirsters or Lords of Change: Bloodthirsters or Lords of Change are Flying Monsterous Creatures who have arrived from reserve via Deep Strike. FMCs who have arrived via Deepstrike are forced to be in Swooping mode and cannot change flight modes until the following turn as changing flight modes is performed at the start of its move, which it does not have. It has been forced to be declared as Swooping the turn it arrives. Therefore they cannot charge until two turns after they are summoned.

For example, a Bloodthirster is summoned Turn 2. It arrives in Swooping mode, cannot move or change Flight Modes turn 2. It can only run or shoot Turn 2. Turn 3 the Bloodthirster can change movement modes and begin Gliding. It can shoot or Run as normal. Turn 4 the Blood Thirster can Glide and charge.

One Eye Open Daemons still belond to the Codex Daemons Faction and if summoned by a Faction that is Comes the Apocalypse or Desperate Allies they are still subject to the One Eye Open rules laid out in Allies. Summoning and scatter may force this check at the beginning of the following turn.

Transports and Vehicles: Summoning from inside of a Transport or a Building is prohibited.

Possession, Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers, and ICs: When an IC or ICs are attached to a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules and Possession is cast, the entire unit is sacrificed, including any attached Independent Characters who "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."

Good info for all to know.

Knowing is half the battle!!

Please Ignore, hit Quote not Edit.


Added

One Power Attempt Per Unit: Only one attempt at any one specific power per unit per turn. No double attempts at the same power from any unit without a special rule allowing it.

Good summary. How about the distance between summoner (psyker) and summoned unit (daemons)?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Good summary. How about the distance between summoner (psyker) and summoned unit (daemons)?

Great suggestion, I'll add it.

Added

Range of Summoning: Only Summoning and Incursion have a 12" range. Unit must be placed for DSing within 12". The range for Sacrifice and Possession is only 6". Note: If a unit suffers a DS mishap and goes into Ongoing Reserves it can be placed anywhere on the table when it arrives.

Cursed Earth only requires the first model be placed within 12" for No Scatter DS.

Added

Objective Secured: Conjured units are Scoring unit, but summoned Horrors, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, and Bloodletters are not Troops, they are conjured units and were not selected in a Troop FOC slot, and do not benefit from the Battleforged Objective Secured Special Rule. No permission is giving to assign a summoned unit to s FOC slot and therefore are a slot-less unit belonging to the Chaos Daemon's Faction.

 Zagman wrote:

Range of Summoning: Only Summoning and Incursion have a 12" range, measured from the Psycher. Unit must be placed for DSing wholy within 12". The range for Sacrifice and Possession is only 6". Note: If a unit suffers a DS mishap and goes into Ongoing Reserves it can be placed anywhere on the table when it arrives.

That's not how I read it.

You DS by placing an initial model, then, once scatter has been rolled and final location determined, placing the remainder of the unit.

Nowhere does it specify that the conjuration differs from this, and I would argue the all you need to ensure is the initial model is placed within range, and if it scatters out of range, or where other models must be placed out of range, then that is fine, much like blasts can scatter out of range or LOS.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Range of Summoning: Only Summoning and Incursion have a 12" range, measured from the Psycher. Unit must be placed for DSing wholy within 12". The range for Sacrifice and Possession is only 6". Note: If a unit suffers a DS mishap and goes into Ongoing Reserves it can be placed anywhere on the table when it arrives.

That's not how I read it.

You DS by placing an initial model, then, once scatter has been rolled and final location determined, placing the remainder of the unit.

Nowhere does it specify that the conjuration differs from this, and I would argue the all you need to ensure is the initial model is placed within range, and if it scatters out of range, or where other models must be placed out of range, then that is fine, much like blasts can scatter out of range or LOS.

This is exactly write, in my haste this morning I wrote unit in stead of first model. It certainly does follow the rules for DS which require one model to be placed wholly within 12" and then scattered as normal, the remaining modes placed around it as described.

Thank you for pointing out my terrible wording, it has been fixed.

Good, useful summary. Something else to remember is that daemons being summoned by a non-daemon army will very likely cause a "One Eye Open" test at the start of the following turn (depending on scatter and the specific timing of that rule).

Summoned Daemons can run. So probably not unless you summon Plaguebearers or something else that is Nurgle. Wait nevermind, the PlagueDrones get their Jetpack move.

So can the person that summoned them. Even if they summon on top of each other, which in that case they'd deepstrike mishap.

One thing to remember is that deep strike mishaps put them in reserve then you can place them wherever you want next turn.

Magc8Ball wrote:Good, useful summary. Something else to remember is that daemons being summoned by a non-daemon army will very likely cause a "One Eye Open" test at the start of the following turn (depending on scatter and the specific timing of that rule).

Good Point, I'll remember to add this.

One Eye Open Daemons still belond to the Codex Daemons Faction and if summoned by a Faction that is Comes the Apocalypse or Desperate Allies they are still subject to the One Eye Open rules laid out in Allies. Summoning and scatter may force this check at the beginning of the following turn.

Hollismason wrote:Summoned Daemons can run. So probably not unless you summon Plaguebearers or something else that is Nurgle. Wait nevermind, the PlagueDrones get their Jetpack move.

So can the person that summoned them. Even if they summon on top of each other, which in that case they'd deepstrike mishap.

One thing to remember is that deep strike mishaps put them in reserve then you can place them wherever you want next turn.

I think I had all of this in there, or certainly didn't say you couldn't do any of it.

Nice summary.

It may be worth mentioning that conjuration cannot be used from inside buildings and transports.

 ansacs wrote:
Nice summary.

It may be worth mentioning that conjuration cannot be used from inside buildings and transports.

Thank you, I was just trying to clear up some confusion that is fueling the fear.


Thanks for the suggestion, I'll add that.

One thing he also fails to mention is that most of your daemons if summoned from your backline will be pretty much out of the fight until a later turn. Daemons summoned after turn 3 probably won't be contributing until turn 6 (if the game goes on that long).
So after turn three I'd play more aggressively and cut back on daemon summons. Gambling on a turn 6+ is not a smart way to build a list.

 ionusx wrote:
One thing he also fails to mention is that most of your daemons if summoned from your backline will be pretty much out of the fight until a later turn. Daemons summoned after turn 3 probably won't be contributing until turn 6 (if the game goes on that long).
So after turn three I'd play more aggressively and cut back on daemon summons. Gambling on a turn 6+ is not a smart way to build a list.

Thanks for the I out.

My goal wasn't a guide for playing against Daemon Factory, but merely to reiterate all of the relevant rules. Miso,aging even a few of those can grossly increase the power levels.

Relevent to Arrival by Deep Strike section, add this or make a separate section:

Summoned daemons by virtue of DSing onto the field will necessarily be clumped together, making them huge targets for blast and flame templates.

 ace101 wrote:
Relevent to Arrival by Deep Strike section, add this or make a separate section:

Summoned daemons by virtue of DSing onto the field will necessarily be clumped together, making them huge targets for blast and flame templates.

They can run in the shooting phase to spread out.

 ace101 wrote:
Relevent to Arrival by Deep Strike section, add this or make a separate section:

Summoned daemons by virtue of DSing onto the field will necessarily be clumped together, making them huge targets for blast and flame templates.

My goal wasn't a tactical, but merely to make sure people understand the relevant rules, not strategies involved.

If the daemon player chooses not to fun and a player can't see a clumped group of daemons is a good target for a blast.....

"Objective Secured: Conjured units are Scoring unit, but summoned Horrors, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, and Bloodletters are not Troops, they are conjured units and were not selected in a Troop FOC slot, and do not benefit from the Battleforged Objective Secured Special Rule. No permission is giving to assign a summoned unit to s FOC slot and therefore are a slot-less unit belonging to the Chaos Daemon's Faction. "

This is wrong, it has nothing to do with FOC. It's to do with detachment.
Summoned daemons (troops) that are summoned by your primary detachment are a part of your primary detachment. Therefore any units (troops) within the primary detachment are objective secured.

Further more, they are identified as units within the powers description, you are told to refer to the daemon codex where they are listed under troops, therefore they are troop choices.
Troops choices under the primary detachment have objective secured.

However, if an allied CSM daemon prince summons, these are not within the primary detachment and would not be objective secured.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
"Objective Secured: Conjured units are Scoring unit, but summoned Horrors, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, and Bloodletters are not Troops, they are conjured units and were not selected in a Troop FOC slot, and do not benefit from the Battleforged Objective Secured Special Rule. No permission is giving to assign a summoned unit to s FOC slot and therefore are a slot-less unit belonging to the Chaos Daemon's Faction. "

This is wrong, it has nothing to do with FOC. It's to do with detachment.
Summoned daemons (troops) that are summoned by your primary detachment are a part of your primary detachment. Therefore any units (troops) within the primary detachment are objective secured.

Further more, they are identified as units within the powers description, you are told to refer to the daemon codex where they are listed under troops, therefore they are troop choices.
Troops choices under the primary detachment have objective secured.

However, if an allied CSM daemon prince summons, these are not within the primary detachment and would not be objective secured.

I value your opinion, but opinion is all you wrote.

Please specify the page number and quote the relevant rules that allows you to attribute a Troop Slot to a summoned unit. You have no permission to do so. If you did, summoning a Greater Daemon while you already have your two HQ slots filled would disqualify your army as it would become unbound.

Unless you are given permission to assign a summoned unit to a troops slot it is not a troops unit, defined by use as a unit selected to fill a troops slot on the FOC. "Troops" is a slot classification, summoned units have no permission to be allocated to a Slot and are therefore a slotless unit.

You are confusing a unit, Horrors selected to fill a Troop slot in a Daemons FOC, with the Summoned Unit Horrors whose relevant rules are taken from Chaos Daemons. One fills a Troop Slot and is a Troop unit, the other has no such classification and without a FAQ or Errata you have no permission to do so.

Unless told otherwise, Summoned Units are Slotless and are still bound by Allies restrictions.


This summary is for the rules as they stand, not how you think they should be played. If you disagree, there are arguments going on in YMDC right now about this very topic.


On another note, Conjured units do not belong to any Detachment, they simply belong to the Army as laid out in "Conjured Units & Victory Conditions". Again, please specify the Pg and quote the rule that allows you to add a conjured unit to a detatchment, expecially when you have a non Chaos Daemons Summoner. You would require specific permission to do that, none exists.

 Zagman wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
"Objective Secured: Conjured units are Scoring unit, but summoned Horrors, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, and Bloodletters are not Troops, they are conjured units and were not selected in a Troop FOC slot, and do not benefit from the Battleforged Objective Secured Special Rule. No permission is giving to assign a summoned unit to s FOC slot and therefore are a slot-less unit belonging to the Chaos Daemon's Faction. "

This is wrong, it has nothing to do with FOC. It's to do with detachment.
Summoned daemons (troops) that are summoned by your primary detachment are a part of your primary detachment. Therefore any units (troops) within the primary detachment are objective secured.

Further more, they are identified as units within the powers description, you are told to refer to the daemon codex where they are listed under troops, therefore they are troop choices.
Troops choices under the primary detachment have objective secured.

However, if an allied CSM daemon prince summons, these are not within the primary detachment and would not be objective secured.

I value your opinion, but opinion is all you wrote.

Please specify the page number and quote the relevant rules that allows you to attribute a Troop Slot to a summoned unit. You have no permission to do so. If you did, summoning a Greater Daemon while you already have your two HQ slots filled would disqualify your army as it would become unbound.

Unless you are given permission to assign a summoned unit to a troops slot it is not a troops unit, defined by use as a unit selected to fill a troops slot on the FOC. "Troops" is a slot classification, summoned units have no permission to be allocated to a Slot and are therefore a slotless unit.

You are confusing a unit, Horrors selected to fill a Troop slot in a Daemons FOC, with the Summoned Unit Horrors whose relevant rules are taken from Chaos Daemons. One fills a Troop Slot and is a Troop unit, the other has no such classification and without a FAQ or Errata you have no permission to do so.

Unless told otherwise, Summoned Units are Slotless and are still bound by Allies restrictions.


This summary is for the rules as they stand, not how you think they should be played. If you disagree, there are arguments going on in YMDC right now about this very topic.


On another note, Conjured units do not belong to any Detachment, they simply belong to the Army as laid out in "Conjured Units & Victory Conditions". Again, please specify the Pg and quote the rule that allows you to add a conjured unit to a detatchment, expecially when you have a non Chaos Daemons Summoner. You would require specific permission to do that, none exists.

Happy to oblige although you may want to back up your own information with official references.
AND... before you share tactical advice I would suggest gaining opinion on points raised before sharing advice which can be falsified through BRB references.


Page 122:
Objective Secured:
All Troops Units from this detachment have objective secured.

Page 195
Summoning:
"Creates one of the following Units...."
Rules for these units are found in Codex: Chaos Daemons.

These units are listed under the unit type "Troops" in the Codex: Chaos Daemons.
This means these units are classed as Troops.

To further prove this I will end with a final statement from:
Page 118:
All of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

So clearly all units in YOUR ARMY have to be contained within one Detachment.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
"Objective Secured: Conjured units are Scoring unit, but summoned Horrors, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, and Bloodletters are not Troops, they are conjured units and were not selected in a Troop FOC slot, and do not benefit from the Battleforged Objective Secured Special Rule. No permission is giving to assign a summoned unit to s FOC slot and therefore are a slot-less unit belonging to the Chaos Daemon's Faction. "

This is wrong, it has nothing to do with FOC. It's to do with detachment.
Summoned daemons (troops) that are summoned by your primary detachment are a part of your primary detachment. Therefore any units (troops) within the primary detachment are objective secured.

Further more, they are identified as units within the powers description, you are told to refer to the daemon codex where they are listed under troops, therefore they are troop choices.
Troops choices under the primary detachment have objective secured.

However, if an allied CSM daemon prince summons, these are not within the primary detachment and would not be objective secured.

I value your opinion, but opinion is all you wrote.

Please specify the page number and quote the relevant rules that allows you to attribute a Troop Slot to a summoned unit. You have no permission to do so. If you did, summoning a Greater Daemon while you already have your two HQ slots filled would disqualify your army as it would become unbound.

Unless you are given permission to assign a summoned unit to a troops slot it is not a troops unit, defined by use as a unit selected to fill a troops slot on the FOC. "Troops" is a slot classification, summoned units have no permission to be allocated to a Slot and are therefore a slotless unit.

You are confusing a unit, Horrors selected to fill a Troop slot in a Daemons FOC, with the Summoned Unit Horrors whose relevant rules are taken from Chaos Daemons. One fills a Troop Slot and is a Troop unit, the other has no such classification and without a FAQ or Errata you have no permission to do so.

Unless told otherwise, Summoned Units are Slotless and are still bound by Allies restrictions.


This summary is for the rules as they stand, not how you think they should be played. If you disagree, there are arguments going on in YMDC right now about this very topic.


On another note, Conjured units do not belong to any Detachment, they simply belong to the Army as laid out in "Conjured Units & Victory Conditions". Again, please specify the Pg and quote the rule that allows you to add a conjured unit to a detatchment, expecially when you have a non Chaos Daemons Summoner. You would require specific permission to do that, none exists.

Happy to oblige although you may want to back up your own information with official references.
AND... before you share tactical advice I would suggest gaining opinion on points raised before sharing advice which can be falsified through BRB references.


Page 122:
Objective Secured:
All Troops Units from this detachment have objective secured.

Page 195
Summoning:
"Creates one of the following Units...."
Rules for these units are found in Codex: Chaos Daemons.

These units are listed under the unit type "Troops" in the Codex: Chaos Daemons.
This means these units are classed as Troops.

To further prove this I will end with a final statement from:
Page 118:
All of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

So clearly all units in YOUR ARMY have to be contained within one Detachment.

You failed to prove your point. Here is exactly why. Nothing states that a Summoned Unit is given a battlefield role. Nothing states a conjured unit is added to a detachment. All rules supplied by you are in reference to the Force Roster, how your army is selected and FOC Slots each unit is taken in which is applicable for creating your army. It lists all of the units in the detachment, and those that are troops units of that detachment. Here are a couple of practical examples of why your method does not work...

Battleforged Combined Arms Codex Daemons Detachment.

Fateweaver
4xHeralds
Horrors
Horrors

We have a legal CA Detachment. One Herald casts Possession and is removed from play as a Lord of Change is added.

Under my interpretation of the rules nothing changes, it is a scoring unit but is not part of the detachment, merely the army. It is not held to the Restrictions nor the Command Benefits of the Detachments. It is a Slotless Unit that is party of the army and has to abide by the levels of Allies which are Faction dependent.

Under your interpretation, the Conjured Lord of Change is an HQ unit added to the Detachment. We now have a detachment with three HQs and two troops. This is an illegal Detachment, we now have an Unbound Army. Many many more rules issues crop up.


Another example

Codex: Eldar Combined Arms Detachment
Eldar Farseer
Warloc Council
Eldar Farseer
Bikes
Bikes

We have a legal Combined Arms Detachment. One Warlock casts Possession and conjures a Blood Thirster.

Under my interpretation of the rules nothing changes, it is a scoring unit but is not part of the detachment, merely the army. It is not held to the Restrictions nor the Command Benefits of the Detachments. It is a Slotless Unit that is party of the army and has to abide by the levels of Allies which are Faction dependent.

Under your interpretation, the Conjured Blood Thirster is an HQ unit added to the Detachment. We now have a detachment with three HQs and two troops. This is an illegal Detachment, we now have an Unbound Army. We now have a Detachment with units from different Factions. This is illegal and we now have an Unbound Army. Many many more rules issues crop up.


Another Example

Battleforged Combined Arms Codex Daemons Detachment.

Fateweaver
4xHeralds
Horrors
Horrors

We have a legal CA Detachment. One Herald casts Summoning conjuring a unit of Horrors.

Under my interpretation of the rules nothing changes, it is a scoring unit but is not part of the detachment, merely the army. It is not held to the Restrictions nor the Command Benefits of the Detachments. It is a Slotless Unit that is party of the army and has to abide by the levels of Allies which are Faction dependent.

Under your interpretation, the Conjured Horrors are a Troop unit added to the Detachment. We now have a detachment with two HQs and two troops. This is a Legal Detachment and does not affect the status of the army. The Unit benefits from the Command Benefits of the Detachment.

I would like to you to pay close attention to how my reading of the rules is consistent and applicable in all situation whereas your reading of the rules breaks many rules and changes considerable based upon the specific situation. Nothing gives you permission to modify the Army Roster and add units to the Detachment once the game commences.

Please supply me the rules and quote which allows you to add a unit to a detachment once the game has started, allows you to modify the FOC after the game has started, allows you rectify the inconsistencies in the rules, rectifies the Faction and levels of Alliance problems, etc. And make sure the quote is not written and intended for Army Roster creation before the game starts.



Here is a list of many of the relevant quotes from the BRB.

Under Factions
"A unit's Faction applies regardless of how you choose your army, but is especially relevant to Detachments because many state that you can only include units of a particular Faction."

Under Selecting Detachments
"1) Force Organisation Chart

This shows the number of units of each battlefield role that you may include in this Detachment. Black boxes are choices you must include to take this Detachment, whilst grey boxes are optional choices.

2)Restrictions

This lists any restrictions that apply to the types of units you may include in this Detachment."

Under Force Organisation Charts and Slots
"This section of the Detachment lists the minimum and maximum number of units of each type that you must or may include in the Detachment.....Each slot allows you to take one unit..... Any further units of the same Battlefield Roel will need to be take in a different Detachment.... and cannot select more than six in the same Detachment."

Under Restrictions
"If an Army List Entry does not adhere to a particular restriction, it cannot be included as part of this particular Detachment. For example, in order to include a Combined Arms Detachment, all of its Army List Entries must have the same Faction."


Now under Victory Conditions

"Conjured Units & Victory Conditions
Certain psychic powers or special rules will allow you to 'conjure' a model or unit and make it appear on the battlefield. Conjured units count as part of the army of the player that has conjured them as far as Victory Conditions and the rules for Victory Points are concerned."


Under Conjuration

"Each conjuration power specifies the type and number of models to be conjured. Unless state otherwise, the new unit cannot take any additional options or upgrades......... the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes....... Unless otherwise noted, conjured units are scoring units."

Under Conjuring Daemons
"If a conjuration power creates a unit from Codex: Daemons...."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Possession

"If this power is successfully manifested, the Psyker is immediately removed as a casualty (if the Psyker was part of a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule, remove the entire unit as casualties). If, when using this power, the Psyker fails his Psychic test, he automatically suffers Perils of the Warp."


Under Independent Characters
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."



Very clear, Possess while Heralds are in a Unit of Pink Horrors loses the whole unit. Very very clear.


Adding

Possession, Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers, and ICs: When an IC or ICs are attached to a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules and Possession is cast, the entire unit is sacrificed, including any attached Independent Characters who "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."

I would agree that conjured units do not have objective secured. However I would say it is due to them not being selected as part of a battle forged army (literally impossible to select a conjured unit at army selection). Troops do not inherently have objective secured, it is only gained from being selected in a detachment of battleforge army or by several special rules.

It is also false that units controlled by the player have to be part of their FOC as buildings can be taken control of now. Also saying that FOC can change during a game is a slippery slope as it would allow things like troop plague marines to revert to elites or armies to change from battle forged to unbound as more HQ units are created.

Once again, this is based on Detachment, not FOC.

As every unit in YOUR ARMY has to belong to a DETACHMENT.

This is from the book with references, honestly, I know things have changed but if you actually read the book it might make more sense to you.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Once again, this is based on Detachment, not FOC.

As every unit in YOUR ARMY has to belong to a DETACHMENT.

This is from the book with references, honestly, I know things have changed but if you actually read the book it might make more sense to you.

Yes, it requires that ever unit be placed in a detachment when you are constructing your army. Find permission to add a unit to a detachment later. Find permission to add a Chaos daemons unit to to an Eldar detachment though it is expressly forbidden.

For a Summoned aunt to be added to a detachment you need to find permission to add a unit to a detachment, ignore the faction requirements of that detachment, add a unit within a FOC to slots, ignore the established maximums on slots, ignore the qualifications for an Unbound army.

Adding a summoned unit to a detachment only works when you have permission to break many rules and make up many more. Simply adding them to your army as a Slot-less Detachment-less unit that scores and must follow the Allies Matrix based upon Faction does not break any rules and works in all situations. The rules pertaining to army construction to not apply to Summoned units, if they do then you can't cherry pick which one do and which ones don't.


Every thing I quoted is in the BRB if you've read it, I also included it's section headings. I assumed if you were trying to argue this with me you had read and were familiar enough with the material to truly not needs very specific page reference, but every one is in there. Unlike you, I didn't find a sentence which seems to make my point then take it out of context. Context matters.


You've also failed to address any of my examples or make a counter argument. You failed to answer any of my questions. As far as I'm concerned if you are unable to creat a coherent and complete argument then this argument is over. I am here if you actually want to examine and argue the rules, but I can't change your opinion, just argue the facts.


Context is key.

Next time, try to keep the insults out of it.

The flight restrictions are really harsh. It's best not to be greedy and just summon a GUO or KOS so it can assault next turn.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The flight restrictions are really harsh. It's best not to be greedy and just summon a GUO or KOS so it can assault next turn.

Definiteyly, a KOS may be the best because of how fast it is. The GUO is so slow that it may be difficult to get him where you want him.... unless it was a Disc Herald. Move 12, Summon 12", hopefully scatter right on top of them.

Though, if you are using Possession Turn 1 or Turn 2 getting a LOC or a Bloodthirster isn't bad. Being able to Charge T3 still gives you three usable Assault Turns from a Bloodthirster, which is a Bloodthirster, lol. The LoC generates 3 WC and gives you access to more psychic powers, and despite his casty nature is still a solid beast in CC.

Turns 3-4, a KOS is definitely a better option, but honestly unless possession was generated by a Summoned Horror squad you should't have any left in your army after T2.

Thanks for the comments, I agree with you on the summoned daemons being scoring but not objective secured. There should be an FAQ on this coming out later.

So remember with all this, that portal glyph summons and Tyranid spawns will follow the same rules as for if they are scoring/troops or whatever the huff and puff is about.

Also, when daemons run daemon factory, they bring the icon of chaos on pink horror units. This makes units with daemon of tzeentch not scatter within 12, and other daemons only scatter D6.

This is an excellent thread, btw.