Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DEFINATELY the "i go, you go" turn sequence.

IMO the start of a good system is when you activate per unit, not per side.
To be complete i have to add that the whole army should not be 1 unit, but devided into smaller parts, the units.

GW knows that this exists, Epic (Armageddon) uses this system, just as Man O'War; Inquisitor had a good system too.

There are other flaws in 40K and WHFB, they change every edition and codex/armybook.
But the turn sequence design flaw is constant.

With regard to the IGOUGO system, I don't think it would be as bad if the rules weren't so bloated and repetitive.

e.g. Why is movement done separately in 3 different phases? Why can't all movement be completed in a single phase?

Why is it necessary to have an entire phase devoted to psychic powers? It just slows down the game. As do random psychic powers and the 'we don't know how to write good rules so let's just throw lots of dice at them' magic system.

 ChazSexington wrote:
...This leads to the question: How many 3 year olds would it take to kill OP?

Golden!

But I don't think your opponent made a very good list. I think that is the real issue.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Grenades are only thrown in the shooting phase. Krak grenades in the assault phase are one attack per model at Strength 6.
If he had ~2000pts entirely of plague marines (since what you've said that weren't plague marines were only around 500 points, if that), he should've had enough str 6 stuff to glance a pair of AV12 walkers to death. Easily.

Can't say I agree with you on this. When you compare rules for 6th to rules for 7th, it looks to me like they limited a unit to 1 grenade in any phase.

Page 61 6th Ed BRB: Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase.

Page 180 7th Ed BRB: Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase.

If they bothered to make a "per phase" distinction and not specify what phases they mean, they are talking about more than just the Shooting Phase (so 1 grenade per/unit per Movement, Psyker, Shootin, and Assault...obviously the first 2 phases don't apply)

Lords of War.

Keep your super heavy tanks for Apoc games, please.

Backfire wrote:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
Not entirely sure if i'm honest, but random charge distance was a real ripper.

Not neccessarily a design flaw, but if they interacted with the community and took suggestions to balance it more, that would be amazing.

Random charges exist, because they wanted to introduce pre-measuring. Pre-measuring combined with fixed charge ranges would make it too easy to stay within 6.1" range from the enemy and thus safe from charging.

That's a ridiculous statement. The table has a finite size, and so you cannot back-up indefinitely. With a normal move being 6", and (per 5th ed) a charge getting an additional 6", it's impossible to remain out-of-charge range.


I believe the biggest design flaw in 40k is the number of random events that normally have little impact on the game, but every so often just decide its outcome. Random Charges fall into this category. Normally, you make a 4" charge, but then it fails, and you're out of position and get killed. Too many of these random events have no basis in any sort of realism. Establishing scale, a human figure is 28mm, roughly 1" tall, and can move 6" in a 'turn'. That's a movement rate, assuming the whole cautious battlefield movement thing, of roughly 12 yards/turn. It's fairly safe to say that a six-turn game represents less than half-an-hour of combat, and probably more like 6 minutes.

With that in mind, consider mechanics like Perils of the Warp, or Gets Hot. Within a six minute period, there's over a 90% chance (cumulative) that a plasma gun will somehow malfunction significantly enough to harm the man carrying it. No military is going to equip anyone with a weapon with that sort of failure rate. This is a weapon that's not even remotely suitable for the battlefield. Likewise, in the six minutes that our game represents, any psyker is more than 50% likely to suffer Perils of the Warp (cumulative, again). With how dangerous these Perils are in the fluff, there's no way they should be allowed anywhere near a battlefield, unless they possess a very specific talent - certainly not a guy who can only do random things with his mind.

We're told that it's a game about Forging Narratives, and then given a mechanic like Maelstrom of War, representing "the changing tides of battle" - what, as if High Command were staffed entirely by schizophrenic ADHD 6-year-olds? There's no other way to explain such ridiculously changing objectives within the five-minute time frame that our game represents.

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to the IGOUGO system, I don't think it would be as bad if the rules weren't so bloated and repetitive.

e.g. Why is movement done separately in 3 different phases? Why can't all movement be completed in a single phase?

Why is it necessary to have an entire phase devoted to psychic powers? It just slows down the game. As do random psychic powers and the 'we don't know how to write good rules so let's just throw lots of dice at them' magic system.

I agree. If the rules were more streamlined I think IGOUGO wouldn't be so bad.

The very fact you can move 3 separate times in a single turn is crazy and time consuming which makes the IGOUGO system so much worse.

The only alternative I kind of like is something like the Bolt Action system, though I've only ever considered that in small games, it may not work in large games.

Different units all have the same speed. A Howling Banshee should move a lot faster than a terminator.

Armor. I don't like the armor is portrayed where its all or nothing. 2nd edition had a ton of flaws, but I liked how it did armor.

 Redbeard wrote:

I believe the biggest design flaw in 40k is the number of random events that normally have little impact on the game, but every so often just decide its outcome. Random Charges fall into this category. Normally, you make a 4" charge, but then it fails, and you're out of position and get killed. Too many of these random events have no basis in any sort of realism. Establishing scale, a human figure is 28mm, roughly 1" tall, and can move 6" in a 'turn'. That's a movement rate, assuming the whole cautious battlefield movement thing, of roughly 12 yards/turn. It's fairly safe to say that a six-turn game represents less than half-an-hour of combat, and probably more like 6 minutes.

With that in mind, consider mechanics like Perils of the Warp, or Gets Hot. Within a six minute period, there's over a 90% chance (cumulative) that a plasma gun will somehow malfunction significantly enough to harm the man carrying it. No military is going to equip anyone with a weapon with that sort of failure rate. This is a weapon that's not even remotely suitable for the battlefield. Likewise, in the six minutes that our game represents, any psyker is more than 50% likely to suffer Perils of the Warp (cumulative, again). With how dangerous these Perils are in the fluff, there's no way they should be allowed anywhere near a battlefield, unless they possess a very specific talent - certainly not a guy who can only do random things with his mind.

We're told that it's a game about Forging Narratives, and then given a mechanic like Maelstrom of War, representing "the changing tides of battle" - what, as if High Command were staffed entirely by schizophrenic ADHD 6-year-olds? There's no other way to explain such ridiculously changing objectives within the five-minute time frame that our game represents.

Agreed.

Also, a lot of the randomness just seems pointless - especially when it comes to Forging the Narrative (a phrase I'd like to see carved in stone, and then used to pummel all the GW staff who spout it).

e.g. Let's say I'm 'Forging the Narrative' by creating my own Warlord, and it comes to selecting his Warlord Trait (i.e.his area of expertise). Oh, wait, it's entirely random and changes each game. I guess my warlord either has multiple-personality disorder or suffers from crippling bouts of amnesia that cause him to forget most of his tactical abilities. Also, he frequently has tactical expertise which is utterly useless for his army. Did he decide to challenge himself by not playing to his strengths, or does High command assign leaders entirely at random?

 vipoid wrote:

Why is it necessary to have an entire phase devoted to psychic powers? It just slows down the game. As do random psychic powers and the 'we don't know how to write good rules so let's just throw lots of dice at them' magic system.

Actually Psychic phase speeds up the game. For armies with lots of Psykers and many different powers, they slowed the game big time in 6th edition, trying to remember what to cast in what phase and whether this model had already cast his spells. Now, they're all in one sequence, which is more convenient.

As for randomness, I reiterate what I said in other thread, that when it comes to outcome of the match being subject to randomness, 6th and 7th are probably less random than 5th was. However, I agree that many of the tables in the game now just feel kinda pointless, superfluous and annoying.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Grenades are only thrown in the shooting phase. Krak grenades in the assault phase are one attack per model at Strength 6.
If he had ~2000pts entirely of plague marines (since what you've said that weren't plague marines were only around 500 points, if that), he should've had enough str 6 stuff to glance a pair of AV12 walkers to death. Easily.

Can't say I agree with you on this. When you compare rules for 6th to rules for 7th, it looks to me like they limited a unit to 1 grenade in any phase.

Page 61 6th Ed BRB: Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase.

Page 180 7th Ed BRB: Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase.

If they bothered to make a "per phase" distinction and not specify what phases they mean, they are talking about more than just the Shooting Phase (so 1 grenade per/unit per Movement, Psyker, Shootin, and Assault...obviously the first 2 phases don't apply)

Page 180 "A model can use a grenade as a melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack regardless of the number of attacks on its profile or any bonuses." A grenade being used as a melee attack is not being thrown. It is explicitly "clamped in place to maximize effect." Under the "vehicles, Gun Emplacements, and Monstrous Creatures" heading.

So the argument in your favor would be that "clamped in place to maximize effect" nullifies the limit of one "thrown" grenade per unit per phase?

I sorta see your point. Although why did they mention throwing one grenade "per phase" if you can only actually throw a grenade in 1 of the 4 phases? Why didn't they just keep it as "per Shooting Phase" like in 6th? Maybe to cover grenade snapshots during the Assault phase?

(P.S. I posted this to YMDC in case intrested: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/611178.page Seems like a subject for over there more than for over here. And I know I'm theone who broght it up )

My biggest beef would be the USR system - it's just too messy and self-referential. Rules unlocking rules upon rules is pretty ridiculous.

Perhaps this would be alleviated by Codexes featuring the explanation of every applicable rule (not much to ask for for $50) or an official battlescribe like app that does so as well. Said app damn well better be free.

Battlescribe helps a bit, but also just throws out page numbers for half the USRs.

The main problem with IGOUGO is the total lack of "fog of war".

The impact of most other issues in the game that change each edition and/or codex/armybook as well as the impact of most broken units would be much less if one side cannot doe all it wants before the other can react.
Aside from the eternal balance problem of having the first (opening firepower) or last turn (claiming objectives).

Most "tactics" of tournament winners have nothing to do with playing well but choosing specific units and armycomp that is as predictable as possible. And that is only possible because an opponent cannot react to anything that happens. They just stand and take the hurt.
And the bigger the game, the bigger this problem.

Can I nominate the codex layout, because they appear to have been written by a person with his head stuck in a filing cabinet.

Backfire wrote:

Actually Psychic phase speeds up the game. For armies with lots of Psykers and many different powers, they slowed the game big time in 6th edition, trying to remember what to cast in what phase and whether this model had already cast his spells. Now, they're all in one sequence, which is more convenient.

What about compared to 5th, where there was also far less random nonsense with psychic powers?

In any case, having a psychic phase might have speeded things up if they still worked the same as in 6th - when you factor in warp charges, dispelling etc. the game really hasn't been speeded up.

Backfire wrote:
As for randomness, I reiterate what I said in other thread, that when it comes to outcome of the match being subject to randomness, 6th and 7th are probably less random than 5th was.

Could you elaborate on this? I can see very little evidence that 5th edition games would be decided by random chance more than 6th/7th edition ones.

 vipoid wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Actually Psychic phase speeds up the game. For armies with lots of Psykers and many different powers, they slowed the game big time in 6th edition, trying to remember what to cast in what phase and whether this model had already cast his spells. Now, they're all in one sequence, which is more convenient.

What about compared to 5th, where there was also far less random nonsense with psychic powers?

In any case, having a psychic phase might have speeded things up if they still worked the same as in 6th - when you factor in warp charges, dispelling etc. the game really hasn't been speeded up.

5th edition did not have random Psychic powers, true (except the Orks) and I agree that this has not been an improvement. I find it annoying to wait when my opponent generates his 10+ powers...

5th edition did have dispelling if you had Psychic Hood or similar items or powers, and 6th edition of course brought in 6+ Deny the witch roll.

 vipoid wrote:

Backfire wrote:
As for randomness, I reiterate what I said in other thread, that when it comes to outcome of the match being subject to randomness, 6th and 7th are probably less random than 5th was.

Could you elaborate on this? I can see very little evidence that 5th edition games would be decided by random chance more than 6th/7th edition ones.

5th edition randomness:
-Vehicle damage - extremely random, made greatly more reliable in 6th & 7th
-Night fighting
-Reserves
-charging through difficult terrain - at least in my games, defending unit tends to be in terrain, so most of the charges were already random in 5th edition.

Backfire wrote:

5th edition randomness:
-Vehicle damage - extremely random, made greatly more reliable in 6th & 7th

Not really.

There was more reliability added in the form of hull points, but less when it came to exploding a vehicle with a penetrating hit.

Backfire wrote:

-Night fighting

True, though the current version might as well not exist.

Backfire wrote:

-Reserves

They're maybe a little less random now, but still pretty random.

Backfire wrote:

-charging through difficult terrain - at least in my games, defending unit tends to be in terrain, so most of the charges were already random in 5th edition.

I mostly saw non-random charges in 5th. Regardless, I fail to see how that can possibly be more random than having *every* charge be resolved randomly - even those across open ground.


Thing is, I know there was randomness in 5th, but there just seemed far less of it. These days you can barely move for random tables, random hits, random abilities etc. And, the current psychic phase can basically be summed up as:
- Select random powers
- Throw random at chosen power
- See if you get enough random to make power work
- If so, see if your opponent wishes to throw some of his random at it to try and stop it
- If he does, see if he gets enough random to defeat your random

Also, there are just some things that shouldn't be random - like Victory Points.

 jasper76 wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
The way I read krak grenades, he would have gotten 1 attack per round that could've glanced on a 6...it was still inevitable once his heavy weapons were gone.

1 per model, in a 10 man squad thats 10 s6 attacks. Not great, but better than nothing.

Hmmm. P. 181 specifies one model per unit can use krak grenades in the Shooting Phase, but doesn't specify how many models in a unit can use them in an assault...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually page 180, first paragraph specifies that only one grenade can be thrown by a unit per phase , so I read that as only 1 grenade in an assault phase per unit.

This right here. The rules are muddled and confusing.

Rule layout and presentation.

There is no reason that I should half to flip through 4 or 5 different sections just to find out how a unit actually moves. That's just nuts. It's like they don't even want us to play the game right.

Also a sever lack of a holistic approach. A lot of this game feels like someone said "oh, this sounds cool" and wrote a rule without going through all the existing crap to see what it broke. Giving the same rule a different name depending on the codex your reading is stupid too.

I personally think it's the lack of balance (Yes, it's a touchy subject), and I don't mean some units or obviously OP. I mean the fact that there are so many ways to manipulate the FoC now, that you can effectively bring whatever you want. Which might sound cool, but it didn't help the whole spamming issue of Multiple Riptides, Wave Serpants and Night Scythes. One of the many reasons I like Fantasy. You can't spam AS MUCH as you can in 40k, simply because of percentages.

Also, clucky rules. Some rules make sense, and some obviously do not make sense.

All in all, the biggest design flaw of 40k are the writers. not because they're bad, but because they're human. You can't have a perfect game, unfortunately.

clively wrote:
Rule layout and presentation.

Ugh.

The delights of the IG codex:

- Do you want to know what a model's special rules do? Well then look to its front entry.
- Want to know what its weapons do? Well, turn to the armoury - because obviously printing the weapon's stats on the same page would be too much to ask. Also, be sure that you got the name right, because there are several weapons with very similar-sounding names.
- Do you want to know how much a weapon or upgrade costs? Well, if you're lucky, you'll find the answer in the model's entry at the back of the book.
- Do you want to know how much a character pays for wargear? Well, don't look at his entry (that's only for some of his wargear, you fool!), instead look to the weapon/equipment price list page. Also remember that this isn't the same as the armoury - that's before the advertisement pages, whereas this is after.
- Would you like to remind yourself of the Autogun's stats? Tough.

It depends on the odds. ANYONE CAN WHOOP ANYONE'S ASS AT ANY POINT... ASK ANY SOLDIER... ANY TIME... ANY PLACE.

 kronk wrote:
Lords of War.

Keep your super heavy tanks for Apoc games, please.

Just as well the Tantalus isn't apoc

I think the biggest design flaw is that they don't have a core group of non-staff anymore to look at wordings and give them an outside perspective on how it can be interpreted.

I think when you only have a small group it gives you limited perspective and what might seem obvious to you is not when its not in the rules

I completely agree with you Vipoid!

I have been leafing through these damn books so freaking much, seriously, its rediculous...

IT IS REDICULOUS!

It is rediculous guys....

Incredibly rediculous.

How many of you guys can just tell me right now, what page you find the stats for the guns?

Or just know that to find the stats for the nurgle psychic powers, you cant look in the rulebook, you have to switch book, then look in the wargear section i think.., wait it wasnt the wargear section, it was in the back where the special rules for csm are, no it wasnt, ok then there are only one place left to leaf over to..


Re
Dick
You
Loose

Hmmm... Random warlord traits for me.

Why not pay points for the trait of your choice - similar to space wolf sagas of old. Still just as "narrative" and means you credit military planners with a modicum of forethought:

Fighting in a ruined city? Give it to the guy who gives extra cover saves in ruins. Mass outflanking force? Assign that to the chap with outflank bonuses. Got a commander who's tooled up for CC? It's natural he'll give your guys CC advantages.

Randomness means you get a long range IG HQ squad who gets furious charge...

The fact they are still using WHFB skirmish game mechanics and resolution methods in a game that is far to vast for them to cope with .

If you look at Epic Armageddon rules, (battle game rules written for a battle game,) as a benchmark.
It has far more tactical depth , game balance , and is far less complicated.

It covers all the rules for all unit interactions (including flyers etc.), across all terrain types , and all the army lists in just 132 pages.

How many pages of rules are in 40k rule book , Apocalypse , Imperial Armour books, and all the codex books?

The fact the 40k rules are NOT written focusing on game play, but attempting short term sales boosts for the latest releases, does not help either.