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 The Shrike wrote:
Small arms fire isn't going to do it. Think about it like this, if you're not denying their armor (or cover) saves, you're giving them a whole extra layer of protection. You're letting them roll two saves instead of one. Let them roll the RP; whatever, it's just like a save so long as you deny them armor/cover.

A bomb would be an ok idea, but think plasma, not burst.

Overall though, I think it's clear CC is superior to ranged solutions. Even against the CC-oriented Necron lists, liek wraithwing or Flayed Ones, you're still better off in combat. FOs have lots of attacks and Wraiths have the invul, but neither are truly eilte CC units. Wolfstars, Knights, Terminators (lulz, can't believe I just mentioned them in any relevant tactical context), et cetera are going to be better than they are in CC.

Gravcents are the one true exception. A centstar with Draigo+5cents kiting around can really mulch through Necrons (except Wraiths).

And you should FEEL bad about mentioning Terminators in any tactical context. Ever compare the similar point values? That's 15 Flayed Ones against 5 Terminators at minimum value.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
Small arms fire isn't going to do it. Think about it like this, if you're not denying their armor (or cover) saves, you're giving them a whole extra layer of protection. You're letting them roll two saves instead of one. Let them roll the RP; whatever, it's just like a save so long as you deny them armor/cover.

A bomb would be an ok idea, but think plasma, not burst.

Overall though, I think it's clear CC is superior to ranged solutions. Even against the CC-oriented Necron lists, liek wraithwing or Flayed Ones, you're still better off in combat. FOs have lots of attacks and Wraiths have the invul, but neither are truly eilte CC units. Wolfstars, Knights, Terminators (lulz, can't believe I just mentioned them in any relevant tactical context), et cetera are going to be better than they are in CC.

Gravcents are the one true exception. A centstar with Draigo+5cents kiting around can really mulch through Necrons (except Wraiths).

And you should FEEL bad about mentioning Terminators in any tactical context. Ever compare the similar point values? That's 15 Flayed Ones against 5 Terminators at minimum value.

I know; I feel dirty I'm not editing it out though; I'm leaving it there for my shame.

A squad of Flayed Ones with beat the crap out of a unit of Terminators twice their point cost, they've got 5 attacks a piece 20 are 230 points, put them against 460 points of terminators and they'll still beat them. It's a 100 attacks that reroll wounds.

They'll kill anything that's T5 or less in CC, a unit of them can and will straight up murderize Wraiths. Even with Wraiths getting the charge because they still get their Decurion 4+ bonus vs the rending attacks.

They just have problems with Tanks and High toughness value.

Hollismason wrote:
They just have problems with Tanks and High toughness value.

So basically, hit them with a Dread or a sizeable MC.

Yeah pretty much they can always fall back because of the Our weapons are useless rule vs. that but it's still a way to annoy the crap out of them.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah pretty much they can always fall back because of the Our weapons are useless rule vs. that but it's still a way to annoy the crap out of them.

Except we'll get overrun.

The reason I said TWC over knights is due to gauss weapons.

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The reason I said TWC over knights is due to gauss weapons.

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Meh, I don't see TWC as being that good against Necrons though. Yeah, T5 with a 3++ save. but you'll be in my face in no time, which is my threat range. We can also spam S5 guns, so putting wounds through won't really be an issue.

Mass numbers of ap 4 attacks... That's all i think?

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The reason I said TWC over knights is due to gauss weapons.

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Meh, I don't see TWC as being that good against Necrons though. Yeah, T5 with a 3++ save. but you'll be in my face in no time, which is my threat range. We can also spam S5 guns, so putting wounds through won't really be an issue.

24 range is only 2 movement turns.... it doesn't give necrons very long to bring the targets down. Necrons like to be at mid range, but the wolves won't stay there.

Against a full TWC list you won't be killing them all before some of them reach you.

Str 5 is ok (whether you spam it or not is list dependent) but it's not a great solution. Wraiths, flayed ones, warriors and arks are all at a disadvantage.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The reason I said TWC over knights is due to gauss weapons.

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Meh, I don't see TWC as being that good against Necrons though. Yeah, T5 with a 3++ save. but you'll be in my face in no time, which is my threat range. We can also spam S5 guns, so putting wounds through won't really be an issue.

24 range is only 2 movement turns.... it doesn't give necrons very long to bring the targets down. Necrons like to be at mid range, but the wolves won't stay there.

Against a full TWC list you won't be killing them all before some of them reach you.

Str 5 is ok (whether you spam it or not is list dependent) but it's not a great solution. Wraiths, flayed ones, warriors and arks are all at a disadvantage.

Oh I'm not saying the TWC won't do some serious damage. I'm just saying Wraiths could tarpit them easily, and we could probably kill a few before they get into close combat. Then, if they wipe our entire unit, well then there you go, another shooting phase we get at them before they charge again.

With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

True. But this also describes the vast plurality of units available to play in the game Given the option, my whole army would be shooty, high toughness with multiple saves, hehehe. And of course 10 points per model.

 Talys wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

True. But this also describes the vast plurality of units available to play in the game Given the option, my whole army would be shooty, high toughness with multiple saves, hehehe. And of course 10 points per model.

Of course, but not every model needs to be able to counter them, just a few. Necrons seem to have less options than many in this regard imo.

Lets think about tools from other armies: grav guns, poison, psychic powers, rending/pseudo rending, plasma, instant death. Necrons lack all of these. (ok the wraiths have rending and those instant death on 6's pistols).

Consider what counters the necrons have to things like riptides, wraithknights, dreadknights (insert high toughness good save model here).

Wraiths are a common suggestion, however TWC can beat them in a fair fight, especially with str 10 in there.

Tarpitting big threats is also talked about, whilst this can work well vs big guys with few attacks, a TWC squad has a large damage output which will mulch through most cron units.

Destroyers are good vs TWC, especially from their formation. You have to play smart and try to get your fire on the non SS models. Iron priests could be used to tank the ap3 hits.

Lychguard? Possibly, but they are a bit slow.

Personally I find TWC to hit that sweet spot vs crons. They are fast and tough enough to reach the target, but also have a high damage output that prevents tarpitting and threatens all potential targets.

Boniface wrote:
So is there any way to kill necrons?

Sounds a lot like its the kind of game where you may as well have 1 shooting phase and when you fail to kill anything you pack up and leave.

Well, I had a game with my Necrons (Decursion plus two Canoptek formations) against a skimmer heavy Eldar army (with one WK).
We played the relic and he never got close enough to pick it up, since my Crons always got back up.
What helps against Canoptek formations is to kill the spyder. But its hard to kill it early in the game and later on the Crons won't bother.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different. It's not like I'm not shooting them with weapons strong enough to make the Necron player make the decision to jink or not; then it's 6s to hit and 6s to strip a hull point. Sure, give your opponent one big target and they'll focus on it but I field 4-5 knights depending upon pts.


I nearly always have a turn 2 charge with my lancer (that 3d6" run is nice) and if he focuses on the Lancer then the other knights are picking his army apart. I've come to find that the Acheron loves Necrons, that reaper chainfist eats their vehicles and big bads like candy (can choose to reroll on the D chart).

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different.

Not really. Necrons are very good at stripping vehicles. A ghost ark at 12 inches will take 3 HP off any vehicle without a save.

The problem is that you are comparing other vehicles in the game, to 18 HP with re-rollable 4+ saves lol.

The adamantine should be durable enough for some to survive, though they will in all likelihood have to play more carefully than vs other armies.

To be honest though, when playing crons I would be less worried about the lance then if I was playing a different army. I'm not saying its a sure thing, but certainly necrons have the tools for the job.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

Yup, Dreadknights are the bane of my necrons. They make me want to stop playing the crons all together sometimes. Needing 6s to do anything is a really boring way to play.

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different. It's not like I'm not shooting them with weapons strong enough to make the Necron player make the decision to jink or not; then it's 6s to hit and 6s to strip a hull point. Sure, give your opponent one big target and they'll focus on it but I field 4-5 knights depending upon pts.


I nearly always have a turn 2 charge with my lancer (that 3d6" run is nice) and if he focuses on the Lancer then the other knights are picking his army apart. I've come to find that the Acheron loves Necrons, that reaper chainfist eats their vehicles and big bads like candy (can choose to reroll on the D chart).

Yes, saying that a formation of cheap super-heavies is the way to beat Necrons. What wouldn't that beat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

Yup, Dreadknights are the bane of my necrons. They make me want to stop playing the crons all together sometimes. Needing 6s to do anything is a really boring way to play.

Dreadknights? Pssh, I used to hate fighting them, but we have the Nightbringer now, who eats them for breakfast.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different.

Not really. Necrons are very good at stripping vehicles. A ghost ark at 12 inches will take 3 HP off any vehicle without a save.

The problem is that you are comparing other vehicles in the game, to 18 HP with re-rollable 4+ saves lol.

The adamantine should be durable enough for some to survive, though they will in all likelihood have to play more carefully than vs other armies.

To be honest though, when playing crons I would be less worried about the lance then if I was playing a different army. I'm not saying its a sure thing, but certainly necrons have the tools for the job.

You're assuming the Ghost Ark makes it to 12", Knights can shoot (thermal cannons in particular are great at taking out ghost arks) and unless the Necron player wants his warriors slogging across the field, he's making a decision to jink which results in 6's to hit and 6's to stip a HP. Ultimately, none of this stuff happens in a vacuum; Necrons have toys but so do other armies. Are Necrons tough now? Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?). The answer to people playing 'net cheese Necrons to take the fun out of the game in order that they always win is to do the same so I don't feel bad taking 5 knights vs Necrons.

Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?).

You mean the guys who were two and a half times the cost of warriors and carried mostly bolters? While being the only real effective troop in Mech Meta.

A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Alcibiades wrote:
A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Well, then most games are poorly designed. Yugioh, Magic, Heroclix, ext.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Well, then most games are poorly designed. Yugioh, Magic, Heroclix, ext.

Chess!

What I mean is that an army that forces all other armies to field one particular thing is poorly designed, if not internally then externally.

Alcibiades wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Well, then most games are poorly designed. Yugioh, Magic, Heroclix, ext.

Chess!

What I mean is that an army that forces all other armies to field one particular thing is poorly designed, if not internally then externally.

Necrons are very well balanced internally, but that's the point of this thread. There isn't one thing that can be brought to guarantee a victory against Necrons (Except Knights), it's mainly just having to think strategically and play to objectives and/or bring weight of fire and focus certain units down. It's less of what to bring, then how you use what you bring. At least in my opinion.

If I were playing against Necrons (I'm really the only Cron player in my little circle), and wanted to put the hurt on, I'd take a hard look at what my Psychic Phase capabilities could bring.

Necrons can't roll anything beyond the D6 Warp Pool to counter Psykers, and if you bring alot of Warp Points, you can basically do as you please in the Psychic phase.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?).

You mean the guys who were two and a half times the cost of warriors and carried mostly bolters? While being the only real effective troop in Mech Meta.

Hey, I played Tau in 4th and 5th. I remember firing my entire army into a unit of 7 and maybe killing 3 then they were fearless so they didn't need to check leadership. I had to man the entire unit to get rid of the two plasma guns hidden in there that was picking apart the rest of my army (times 3 other rhinos full of the buggers). Sometimes I'd hit 'em with a railgun just so I could feel some sense of accomplishment by actually killing one.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Well, then most games are poorly designed. Yugioh, Magic, Heroclix, ext.

Chess!

What I mean is that an army that forces all other armies to field one particular thing is poorly designed, if not internally then externally.

Necrons are very well balanced internally, but that's the point of this thread. There isn't one thing that can be brought to guarantee a victory against Necrons (Except Knights), it's mainly just having to think strategically and play to objectives and/or bring weight of fire and focus certain units down. It's less of what to bring, then how you use what you bring. At least in my opinion.

Knights don't guarantee a victory over Necrons. They're just very effective vs infantry lists. Doomscythes are an absolute nightmare for IK, and Necrons can now spam them.

Tekron wrote:


Knights don't guarantee a victory over Necrons. They're just very effective vs infantry lists. Doomscythes are an absolute nightmare for IK, and Necrons can now spam them.

Yeah, I have trouble if they bring more than a couple of them but the Castigator is decent anti-air.

Well yeah, Doom Scythes are awesome, but aren't typically seen in many tac lists. If I wanted to tailor against Knights, sure.