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 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 FinkleLord wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

They can get misfortune however, like I said its a situational counter

Which means its basically useless.

Lol not quite, remember it has uses against other MC too.

Sooo, Tyranids? Oh wait they fly. Psilencers are PoS, quit trying to make them good.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It will be fairly easy to list most counters, as the number of them dropped dramatically,
(I am considering the WK to come with ranged D weapons, as that is the best loadout.
...snip...
Tau: lots of fusion or missilesides + buffmander with MC hunter. Lots of firewarriors + ethereal can hurt it.
...snip...
I've probably missed a few things and some of the more obscure FW choices.

It takes 324 Pulse shots to kill a wraithknight. Even if these were Pulse Rifle shots at 1/2 range with an ethereal, that's 108 fire warriors shooting. That is assuming no markerlights used to increase BS. If, somehow, you had enough markerlights to make every pulse shot fire at BS5, it drops to 195 shots, which at triple tap range is 65 fire warriors (6 squads, needs 12 marker lights and 1/2 range for all 65 fire warriors). Still not an 'answer'.

Fusion suits are the cheapest way to get fusion in range to range without losing them to the rest of the army. It's 156 pts for 3 xv8 suits with fusion. They will cause the following damage
BS3, WK in 4+ cover : 0.5 wounds.
BS3, WK in open : 1 wound.
BS5, WK in 4+ cover : 0.833 wounds.
BS5, WK in open (or ML/d to no cover) : 1.667 wounds.
And, the most likely scenario, BS5, WK has 5++ (because ranged D is banned): 1.111 wounds.
Fusion drop suits are not the answer, as it will take more than 3 squads to down the WK, and they will cost more than double the WK price.

Missile/railsides with buffmander is arguably the best choice to hurt it.
BS3 Missilesides (BS2 Missile Drones) with MH and Twin Linked : 1.934 wounds from (HY)MP's, 0.611 from SMS, total of 2.545 wounds.
BS5 Missilesides (BS5 Missile Drones) (3 marker lights) gives 2.811 wounds from (HY)MP's, 0.792 from the SMS, total of 3.603 wounds.
BS5 Railsides (BS5 Marker Drones) (3 marker lights) gives 1.44w from drones, 0.792 wounds from SMS, and 1.458w from Heavy Rails. Total of 3.690 wounds
This unit costs 417 pts and needs to fire multiple times in order to attempt to kill the WK. Ideally this unit will have 2-3 marker lights for increased BS, which against a competent player wont happen. The Eldar should be able to easily deny marker lights from the Tau player, so there shouldn't be any ML's left after turn 1.

The Y'Varha is even worse against the WK, as its guns are 12" or less, meaning it will get punched to death in melee by the WK easily. The 2 shot flamer it has is only str 6, so is hoping for 6's, and the main gun is S8 AP3 3 shot (unless nova charge, then +1D3 more shots). 5 shots of S8 AP3 against a WK (BS4 model base, so unlikely to get marker lights to use) is 1.111 wounds. And costs just about as much as a WK.
The R'Varna is still bad. If it gets 2 hits with its guns, thats 6 S8 AP4 hits, which the WK will shrug off and only take 0.667 wounds.

There really are not good answers for a WK from the Tau side, and there have never really been any the entire time. Tau don't get the easy wound grav option, and plasma isn't an answer as it's only str 6.

The last idea I can think of is a fully buffed Farsight Ball (Shadowsun, Farsight, 6 Suits with dual Fusion and Raven Bodyguard, 14 Gun Drones). This unit is designed to not need marker lights, but it needs them against the WK.
The 6 fusion suits (BS3, TL, MH) do 4.5 wounds. Shadowsun does 0.972 wounds. Farsight does 0.396 wounds. The 14 (BS3, because raven suit) gun drones do 1.426 wounds. Totalled to 7.294 wounds. This unit costs 792 points. 2.69 times the cost of the WK for the Tau player to kill it in a reasonable manner. This unit, however, must start in reserve to get range, and it is totally possible for the eldar player to bubble wrap with bikes or other units to mitigate the potential of this unit.

 Quickjager wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 FinkleLord wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

They can get misfortune however, like I said its a situational counter

Which means its basically useless.

Lol not quite, remember it has uses against other MC too.

Sooo, Tyranids? Oh wait they fly. Psilencers are PoS, quit trying to make them good.

Indeed.

I have no issue killing MCs with my melee force weapons and just psycannons. Why would I take a weapon that is basically useless outside of very corner-case scenarios?

Psilincers having force is cute, but they're still lacking something to make them actually useful.

For any forces of the Imperium, the best bet against Eldar is taking the infamous Drigo - Grav Cent - Tiggy Star. That is the only thing we have can down a Wriath Knight in 1turn and cost less than 800pts....

 Ferros wrote:
No counter for Necron, wat?

Wraiths w/ beamers
Vault (<--- Hits harder, hits further, hits bigger, can be repaired, natural iWND on top)
Burning One Enclave
Pylon

Given, 2/4 are pretty much Apoc-level (But hey, Wraithknight.) but the other two work pretty well. BOC has a chance in melee due to Fleshbane but that initial shooting face has a good chance to be gruesome, and Wraiths with Beamers need two six's or one six and a bit of luck.

Or just mass Warriors and Ghost Arks.

To add on with necron counters for the WK. Full unit of Deathmarks and a D.lord on average kills it and has a chance to make it blind if the D.lord has the solar staff

niv-mizzet wrote:
BA: I need Mephiston with a good quickening, force, and sanguine sword all turned on. And of course he has to reach the thing in melee somehow. Stars aligned moment.

Grav bikers can do a bit of damage, but i have like 2 in my collection, because I don't really like the "marines on bikes" aesthetic.

Can't think of much else that wouldn't just get stomped in melee, fnp negated with a low rate of fire, etc. I don't own any sicarans, but happily accept donations!

Death company can handle a wraithknight. Striking at the same initiative with a ton of attacks. Yeah, wounding on 6s sucks, but gets better with Astorath in the equasion. A couple of power fists should finish the job, though you risk losing the unit to an unlucky stomp.

10 death co with 2 power fist will deal about 3-4 unsaved wounds to a wraithknight on the charge. Assuming you shot at it even a little with melta guns, grav bikes, stormravens, or predators, itll bring him down.

DC has to live through all the scatter laser fire, though.

^Careful though, if your opponent has any suspicion that this list will be present it wouldn't take much for him to switch out some bikes or other units for more WC-producing units. All he needs is one denied invisibility to wreck you that unit's viability.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It will be fairly easy to list most counters, as the number of them dropped dramatically,
(I am considering the WK to come with ranged D weapons, as that is the best loadout.
...snip...
Tau: lots of fusion or missilesides + buffmander with MC hunter. Lots of firewarriors + ethereal can hurt it.
...snip...
I've probably missed a few things and some of the more obscure FW choices.

It takes 324 Pulse shots to kill a wraithknight.

I agree pulse rifles are certainly not a counter, but they can add a few wounds.

I also agree that tau are lacking a truly efficient option.

 Quickjager wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 FinkleLord wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but it involves casting both Misfortune/that biomancy power AND getting Force off.

Not terribly hard, but its two points of failure for you hoping you get some 6s, and only if you used Misfortune will you at least ignore armor saves.

Also GK don't have access to biomancy, so they will need to ally it in.

They can get misfortune however, like I said its a situational counter

Which means its basically useless.

Lol not quite, remember it has uses against other MC too.

Sooo, Tyranids? Oh wait they fly. Psilencers are PoS, quit trying to make them good.

Jeez man, I'm just saying that they're not completely useless, I know they're bad.

Relapse wrote:
Green tide could be ugly now that the Serpent Shield is one use only with a far more limited range. The thing you want to keep in mind is opening a hole for it through the possible wall of jet bikes.

Bu they will just get stomped by the Wraithknight. Any unit with Stomp will crush the Greentide mercilessly because of I1 Powa Klaws.

So only the IoM, Eldar and Necrons have answers to the Wraithknight... Great

Other Eldar (with no knight):
Warp spiders; wound him on a 3 (S6 against I5) hit on 2s with an aspect host and ignores armour on a 6. Also they are faster than him so can avoid CC and the D canons can only kill 2 spiders a turn. You would need just under 18 spiders to kill it in one turn on average.

Thats about it for hard counters - wraithguard have the fire power but not the range without a WWP

Scatter bikes can catch it but you would need 40 bring it down in one turn and bringing 40 scatter bikes is a lot worse than bringing 1 wraithknight!

As others have mentioned farseers with mind war or psychic shriek also work and on a bike he is fast enough.

Regarding Tau, someone in ATT reminded us that a full school of Piranhas with Seeker Missiles cost sless than the WK and could give it quite the kick in the guts. You'll need only 2 markerlights. Sadly, they won't kill it in one volley, though.

2 Skyrays at BS5 will deal 5 uW on it (3.33 if with 5++) and cost less than it.

Deathmarks for necrons, It's their job.
10 deepstriking will do 5 wounds before FNP. 180 points to remove more than half it's wounds is pretty good, then they either put on another 2 wounds next turn, or find a better target.

If they get gunned down, they are surprisingly resilient. WK at range will kill 2. then there are still 8 3+/4+++ wounds to get through. It would take ~20 scatbikes to finish them, or 540 points worth, to remove a little under 180 points.

Also, honorable mention, Doom scythes, at least 1 wound from each.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Mostly this.

3 Exos and 3 Doms. 10.5 Exo shots, 12 Dom shots. 15 Hits. 7.5 Wounds. 5 After FNP. I assume you can throw something else to get that last wound (are they six now?)

So use everything in the army to kill one model. Seems about right. Especially given how the 3 dominions are least are not going to be shooting first turn, and likely will die after the turn they shoot.

Why wouldn't they shoot first turn? And I run my Doms in Repressors, so they live through turn 1. But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

harkequin wrote:
Deathmarks for necrons, It's their job.
10 deepstriking will do 5 wounds before FNP. 180 points to remove more than half it's wounds is pretty good, then they either put on another 2 wounds next turn, or find a better target.

Except when you do account for FNP then they only do about 3 wounds and this is all assuming you succesfully deep strike next to the WK so that they all get rapid fire.

Absolutely, but 1 unit removing half of a wraithknight is pretty good. It's a lot easier for your army to remove 3 wounds than 6.

Then they still have 10 deathmarks in backfield to deal with.

Deepstriking them in 12" isnt that bad, they have a surprisingly small footprint.

Also, that 5 wounds pre FNP turns into 6 when a D-lord comes with.
Taking 2 wounds from a 3+ gmc shouldn't be that hard. Destroyers/Hdestroyers/Doomscythes etc. can do that easily.

Dark Eldar and Harlequins can perfect deepstrike with a Shadowseer and an Archon with 5 Players and a Deathjester. With Neuro Pistols, Armor of Misery and Mask of the Laughing God these do an average of 6 wounds to a Wraithknight without an invuln save (Psy Shriek + Neuro Pistols + Blast Pistols + Raider Lance) or 4 to one with an invuln save.

If you have rolled another Shriek variant on the Harlequin table you will, on average, kill the Wraith Knight with the shadowseer alone, with or without an invuln. (The Armour of Misery plus Mask give a -4 leadership penalty)

That unit costs 435 points, but it can one shot a wraithknight and is still very useful against other units. Having this land and kill the wraithknight then all you need to do is cause leadership tests on the inevitable nearby scatterbikes with the rest of your army, as with leadership 4 they are very likely to simply run away.

If you add extra pistols (and players) at 25 points each you push your wounds up further (the pistols are Fleshbane AP2)

yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
For any forces of the Imperium, the best bet against Eldar is taking the infamous Drigo - Grav Cent - Tiggy Star. That is the only thing we have can down a Wriath Knight in 1turn and cost less than 800pts....

That'll last for as long as codex: SM is unchanged... Which might be pretty soon.

All I can pray for is:

Grav cents largely unchanged
Tiggy not nerfed to the ground
Drops pods as generic FA (very likely, my purifiers will like this...)

 pretre wrote:
Why wouldn't they shoot first turn?

Out of range or in reserve for flank attack.

 pretre wrote:
But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

Using your whole 1500 points army to deal with one model at how many points exactly?

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Arent DreadKnights in the GK codex? If one of those gets to the WK, WK is dead (assuming wraithcannon WK).

I have actually play tested this. 1v1 DK w/ sword, teleported & psycannon vs WK. Over 3 matches, the DK only died once because the WK got a lucky 6 while shooting. In the other 2 games the DK got into CC on turn 2 (turn 1 shunt into 1" of the WK means the WK is NOT getting away). The Psycannon reliably did 1-2 wound to the WK in each match, doing 4 wound in one of the games. The DK lost half its wounds before getting to strike, but once it hit, killed the WK in both games with Force.

DK needs 3s to hit, 2s to wound and the WK takes D3 wounds for each and does not get FNP. DK is almost 100pts cheaper than the WK. Most "competitive" GK list will (or should) have 2 DKs

GodDamUser wrote:
With Nids just tarp it them with endless swarm..

Um..... Stomp?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Why wouldn't they shoot first turn?

Out of range or in reserve for flank attack.

 pretre wrote:
But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

Using your whole 1500 points army to deal with one model at how many points exactly?

I didn't say it was a good choice, just that it was an option.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It will be fairly easy to list most counters, as the number of them dropped dramatically,
(I am considering the WK to come with ranged D weapons, as that is the best loadout.
...snip...
Tau: lots of fusion or missilesides + buffmander with MC hunter. Lots of firewarriors + ethereal can hurt it.
...snip...
I've probably missed a few things and some of the more obscure FW choices.

It takes 324 Pulse shots to kill a wraithknight. Even if these were Pulse Rifle shots at 1/2 range with an ethereal, that's 108 fire warriors shooting. That is assuming no markerlights used to increase BS. If, somehow, you had enough markerlights to make every pulse shot fire at BS5, it drops to 195 shots, which at triple tap range is 65 fire warriors (6 squads, needs 12 marker lights and 1/2 range for all 65 fire warriors). Still not an 'answer'.

Fusion suits are the cheapest way to get fusion in range to range without losing them to the rest of the army. It's 156 pts for 3 xv8 suits with fusion. They will cause the following damage
BS3, WK in 4+ cover : 0.5 wounds.
BS3, WK in open : 1 wound.
BS5, WK in 4+ cover : 0.833 wounds.
BS5, WK in open (or ML/d to no cover) : 1.667 wounds.
And, the most likely scenario, BS5, WK has 5++ (because ranged D is banned): 1.111 wounds.
Fusion drop suits are not the answer, as it will take more than 3 squads to down the WK, and they will cost more than double the WK price.

Missile/railsides with buffmander is arguably the best choice to hurt it.
BS3 Missilesides (BS2 Missile Drones) with MH and Twin Linked : 1.934 wounds from (HY)MP's, 0.611 from SMS, total of 2.545 wounds.
BS5 Missilesides (BS5 Missile Drones) (3 marker lights) gives 2.811 wounds from (HY)MP's, 0.792 from the SMS, total of 3.603 wounds.
BS5 Railsides (BS5 Marker Drones) (3 marker lights) gives 1.44w from drones, 0.792 wounds from SMS, and 1.458w from Heavy Rails. Total of 3.690 wounds
This unit costs 417 pts and needs to fire multiple times in order to attempt to kill the WK. Ideally this unit will have 2-3 marker lights for increased BS, which against a competent player wont happen. The Eldar should be able to easily deny marker lights from the Tau player, so there shouldn't be any ML's left after turn 1.

The Y'Varha is even worse against the WK, as its guns are 12" or less, meaning it will get punched to death in melee by the WK easily. The 2 shot flamer it has is only str 6, so is hoping for 6's, and the main gun is S8 AP3 3 shot (unless nova charge, then +1D3 more shots). 5 shots of S8 AP3 against a WK (BS4 model base, so unlikely to get marker lights to use) is 1.111 wounds. And costs just about as much as a WK.
The R'Varna is still bad. If it gets 2 hits with its guns, thats 6 S8 AP4 hits, which the WK will shrug off and only take 0.667 wounds.

There really are not good answers for a WK from the Tau side, and there have never really been any the entire time. Tau don't get the easy wound grav option, and plasma isn't an answer as it's only str 6.

The last idea I can think of is a fully buffed Farsight Ball (Shadowsun, Farsight, 6 Suits with dual Fusion and Raven Bodyguard, 14 Gun Drones). This unit is designed to not need marker lights, but it needs them against the WK.
The 6 fusion suits (BS3, TL, MH) do 4.5 wounds. Shadowsun does 0.972 wounds. Farsight does 0.396 wounds. The 14 (BS3, because raven suit) gun drones do 1.426 wounds. Totalled to 7.294 wounds. This unit costs 792 points. 2.69 times the cost of the WK for the Tau player to kill it in a reasonable manner. This unit, however, must start in reserve to get range, and it is totally possible for the eldar player to bubble wrap with bikes or other units to mitigate the potential of this unit.

Only option is Sky Rays. 3 sky rays (345 points) can shoot 18 seeker missiles turn one (shot normally, not "seeker" rule). Most likely they will be shot at BS5 with network marker lights. that is 15 hits, 7/8 wounds. Yes they will be out of missiles, but can still fly around markering things and using SMS

 pretre wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Mostly this.

3 Exos and 3 Doms. 10.5 Exo shots, 12 Dom shots. 15 Hits. 7.5 Wounds. 5 After FNP. I assume you can throw something else to get that last wound (are they six now?)

So use everything in the army to kill one model. Seems about right. Especially given how the 3 dominions are least are not going to be shooting first turn, and likely will die after the turn they shoot.

Why wouldn't they shoot first turn? And I run my Doms in Repressors, so they live through turn 1. But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

So, if you have to use half your army to take out one unit, I think we can say there is a disparity of power levels and not a small one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Why wouldn't they shoot first turn?

Out of range or in reserve for flank attack.

 pretre wrote:
But yes, when dealing with a garg, you have to do everything you can.

Using your whole 1500 points army to deal with one model at how many points exactly?

I didn't say it was a good choice, just that it was an option.

I wouldn't call that an option at all.

 Smotejob wrote:
yeah, there isn't a unit in the gk codex that is going to effectively deal with those. unless you roll specific psyker powers.

Six Grey Knights Interceptors with hammers should do the job. S8 attacks with force. Fast enough to catch the WK and hit hard enough to wound it. Then force to insta-kill it.

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, if you have to use half your army to take out one unit, I think we can say there is a disparity of power levels and not a small one.

Half of your army? We are talking all the 3 possible FA and the 3 possible HS slots, and even then spamming the best unit on each slot. FA and HS being the only good slots in the codex beside the conclave. And even then, it is with counting on the rest of the army to remove the remaining health point. That is more like using your whole army!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, if you have to use half your army to take out one unit, I think we can say there is a disparity of power levels and not a small one.

Half of your army? We are talking all the 3 possible FA and the 3 possible HS slots, and even then spamming the best unit on each slot. FA and HS being the only good slots in the codex beside the conclave. And even then, it is with counting on the rest of the army to remove the remaining health point. That is more like using your whole army!

Very true, good sir.
Using most and the best part of one's army to counter a single unit is not a viable strategy. Especially when the rest of the army has the potential to be even scarier.
T3 sisters won't really last long against scatterbikes. Or D weapons...or all those psychic powers flying around that SOB don't have.