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 xeen wrote:
Also I may have removed the LR's save, don't quite remember, which also makes a huge difference. I still think it is a good choice, even for just the disruption of him being in the lines, probably less so without the d4.

Oh yes, I didn't even think about this one, that would be a great move into a Russ.
And my math did take into account multiple rounds of combat.
I'm also not quite sure that you're understanding averages. WS2+ with 6 attacks means that, EVERY TIME HE ATTACKS, he will drop one. Of course, this isn't perfectly accurate. Sometimes you're hit with everything and sometimes you'll miss with 3 in a single roll. For example, my Magnus with 7 attacks and wounding on 2s pretty much every single roll gets only 5 successful to wound rolls, which then the enemy gets to save against. That's pretty statistical. Rarely does my Magnus get 7 successful wound rolls from 7 attacks.

Still not sold on the idea that 200pts is purely distraction, especially since he's not all that survivable.

"every time". About 1time in 3 he doesn't.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Also I may have removed the LR's save, don't quite remember, which also makes a huge difference. I still think it is a good choice, even for just the disruption of him being in the lines, probably less so without the d4.

Oh yes, I didn't even think about this one, that would be a great move into a Russ.
And my math did take into account multiple rounds of combat.
I'm also not quite sure that you're understanding averages. WS2+ with 6 attacks means that, EVERY TIME HE ATTACKS, he will drop one. Of course, this isn't perfectly accurate. Sometimes you're hit with everything and sometimes you'll miss with 3 in a single roll. For example, my Magnus with 7 attacks and wounding on 2s pretty much every single roll gets only 5 successful to wound rolls, which then the enemy gets to save against. That's pretty statistical. Rarely does my Magnus get 7 successful wound rolls from 7 attacks.

Still not sold on the idea that 200pts is purely distraction, especially since he's not all that survivable.

Yea, twist of fate helps a lot. Also I have had many games where 2+ hits with every attack, in every fight over the battle. I have also had Magnus wiff and roll a bunch of ones to hit and wound several times in a row. That was the point I was making, is that percentages will average out over time, but they are pretty meaningless to an individual game. Also let me be clear, I am not saying you want to build your list around this guy. You want to build your list around, Ahirman with flamers, Magnus, SoT and sorcerers with rubrics. He is really competing for you remainder points, against things like Forgefied, Tanks, etc. Also if you are going pure damage, you would just take a mutilith over him any day of the week. However, I think he can have a place in a list depending on your play style and other units brought. Sometimes his value is not even from doing damage. Take a look at my post for the game against Custodes. He didn't kill squat that game. However, his ability to be basically anywhere within 9" of the enemy every turn makes him really maneuverable. So in that game I put him in the back, threatening the home objective, and the Custode player had to move one of his better units back to engage with it, which basically took that unit out of the game due to positioning. Yea sometimes that won't work or won't matter all the time, and but sometimes it will. Also, unlike a lot of other support units, he brings 2 Cabal and can use Cabal abilities like doombolt or twist of fate. My main point is I wouldn't just write this guy off, like say the Dreadnoughts, which are very much just out competed with the Mutilith.

However he is certainly not a must take if going competitive, like Magnus.

 dreadblade wrote:
Quick question: Echoes from the Warp says "you can select this psyker's unit at the target of this stratagem". Does that mean a character psyker not attached to a unit can use it on themselves?

Anyone?

 dreadblade wrote:

 dreadblade wrote:
Quick question: Echoes from the Warp says "you can select this psyker's unit at the target of this stratagem". Does that mean a character psyker not attached to a unit can use it on themselves?

Anyone?

Barring an FAQ saying otherwise, I'd say yes. A Psyker not attached to a unit is still a unit in and of themself.

That was my take too (although not my opponent's).

I'd say yes as well. The psyker is his own unit, so by targeting "the psykers unit" you are targeting the psyker.

There are some rules that says "this Leaders bodyguard unit" or something similar, and if that had been the case then I'd say no.

Or "while leading unit".

Vote more for yes

so, i have a 1000 point game coming up next week vs chaos deamons. I know my opponent is planning to take a bloodthister. what sort of options and cunning ploys can i use to help counter it?

edit: no longer on mobile so i can actaully type out more now.

i'm expecting to face a mostly khornate deamon force of:

Bloodthrister
bloodmaster
10 bloodletters
10 hounds
6 bloodcrushers
a few nurglings to soak up some points.


my current list plan is mostly dictated by what i have, but it runs:

ahriman on disc
exalted sorcerer
Infernal Master
tzanngor shaman

2x5 rubrics with bolters+gatling
5 rubics with flamers+ gatling
5 scarabs (hellfire, plus either gatling or flamer)

10 tzanngor
3 enlightened.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, i have a 1000 point game coming up next week vs chaos deamons. I know my opponent is planning to take a bloodthister. what sort of options and cunning ploys can i use to help counter it?

edit: no longer on mobile so i can actaully type out more now.

i'm expecting to face a mostly khornate deamon force of:

Bloodthrister
bloodmaster
10 bloodletters
10 hounds
6 bloodcrushers
a few nurglings to soak up some points.


my current list plan is mostly dictated by what i have, but it runs:

ahriman on disc
exalted sorcerer
Infernal Master
tzanngor shaman

2x5 rubrics with bolters+gatling
5 rubics with flamers+ gatling
5 scarabs (hellfire, plus either gatling or flamer)

10 tzanngor
3 enlightened.

Bring more flamers if you can. They are a nightmare for CC armies, especially with Ahriman. I don't like the Infernal Master, I think a normal sorcerer or exhaled is better. Against daemons you don't really need to worry about twist of fate, so probably doombolt every turn.

Made a few tweaks to my list, and I think I'm fairly settled on what I'll be bringing.

Magnus
Ahriman + 10 Rubric Flamers
Sorcerer (Scrolls) + 5 Rubric Flamers
Master (Crystal) + 5 Rubric Flamers
Termie Sorcerer (Vortex) + 10 Terminators
Rhino (for Ahriman and friends)
Changeling
3x Flamers of Tzeentch
War Dog Huntsman

Tried out a Brigand + Huntsman, and found the Brigand too vulnerable to enemy shooting. I don't feel bad if the Huntsman doesn't shoot while it's creeping up and hiding behind terrain, but with the Brigand I want to get my money's worth! In addition, I think Ahriman's big unit REALLY needs a Rhino for protection and for movement. I just keep deploying him in an area that doesn't have a lot of action, so being able to mitigate that error will help me a lot.
I like the Master instead of a second Sorcerer because I want a unit to DS, which negates the Sorcerer's ability anyhow, and the Master gives me an extra Cabal Pt.

Played a game on Friday against a guy who claimed he hadn't lost a 10e game yet...and he's been playing as Death Guard. His list was:
3 PBCs
Unit of 3 Lawn Mowers (30 wounds??!?)
2 Predator Lascannons
Some sorta DG infantry character all by his lonesome
Double Cannon Knight (4D6 + 12 shots per turn!)
GUO
3 little Nurglings

Over the course of the game, Magnus killed the GUO, a Predator, and the wounded Knight.
Termies killed a PBC, did like 16 wounds on the Knight in shooting, and soaked a lot of fire. They also did about 25 wounds to the Lawn Mower unit, thanks to Psychic Bolters, Magnus aura, and No Armour Save. *pop*
The Huntsman managed to kill 2 PBCs over the game. Brigand did some wounds to a unit but died because it was exposed to the Knight.
It ended with me having lost Ahriman's bodyguards (but not him) and the Master's bodyguard (but not him). 92-25 my favour.
Highlight of the game was when the Knight shot at the Terminators in cover, giving me something like 25 wounds from the Cannons...and I failed 1. Then the stubber shot at them and I failed 4 out of 5 saves! Opponent was miffed I hadn't rolled those in the other order.


In other news, I always just keep my army in DevWounds for the entire game. Less to keep track of, and sprinklings of mortal wounds seems pretty good. I've calculated that Ahriman has a 70% chance to do at least 1 DevWound for 3dmg in the Fight Phase, and Magnus has a 97% chance on the Strike Profile for at least 1, while he's gonna do about 2 in the sweep.

Hey all.
How do you guys play in a 1000pts?
I played against castodes and got a** kicked.
How do you build ur lists for lower point levels?

Lorex wrote:
Hey all.
How do you guys play in a 1000pts?
I played against castodes and got a** kicked.
How do you build ur lists for lower point levels?

Thousand sons is hard at 1000 as our Cabals don't scale down to well. Just bring Magnus and you will be fine. Lol. I would say that the flamers and terminators are a must and at 1000 you can't really bring any units that don't generate Cabal points.

What are good anti tank choice besides the never available mutalith?

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
What are good anti tank choice besides the never available mutalith?

Twist of Fate + Psychic S5 AP1 Bolters with full rerolls.
Lascannons (Land Raider, Predator, Helbrute).
Helfyre Missiles / Ectoplasma (against T10 or lower pref.)
Vindicators.
Maulerfiend / Helbrute in melee.
Magnus in general.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
What are good anti tank choice besides the never available mutalith?

Twist of Fate + Psychic S5 AP1 Bolters with full rerolls.
Lascannons (Land Raider, Predator, Helbrute).
Helfyre Missiles / Ectoplasma (against T10 or lower pref.)
Vindicators.
Maulerfiend / Helbrute in melee.
Magnus in general.

I'll second the psychic Termie bolters. Next to Magnus (and assuming you have a couple Soulreapers and a Character and rerolls), that's 48 shots in double-tap, 46 hits (8 of them lethal), 29ish wounds against T10+ (~4 of those are mortals), and a few missiles. And all of those are sorta mortals, unless the target has an invuln.
The other one is Ahriman with 10 flamers, get a free Twist and then wound on 5s with the tank getting no armour save. 35 hits on average, 14 wounds on average against T8+

 dreadblade wrote:
I've now played a couple of games against Sisters with that smaller list and won both

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [115pts, 3 Cabal Points]: Warlord

Infernal Master [95pts, 2 Cabal Points]: Umbralefic Crystal

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince [225pts, 2 Cabal Points]: Arcane Vortex

Rubric Marines [190pts, 1 Cabal Points]

. Aspiring Sorcerer: Warpflame pistol
. Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon
. 8x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer: 8x Close combat weapon, 8x Warpflamer

Scarab Occult Terminators [205pts, 1 Cabal Points]: Hellfyre missile rack

. Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Inferno combi-bolter
. 3x Scarab Occult Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. Scarab Occult Terminator w/ soulreaper cannon, Prosperine khopesh

Thousand Sons Land Raider [250pts]: Havoc launcher, Inferno combi-weapon

++ Total: [1,080pts, 9 Cabal Points] ++

Initial thoughts:

1) Having the Infernal Master with Crystal lead the Rubrics allows them to teleport onto an objective turn 1 and then control the centre of the board.

2) The Scarabs are really tanky (and seen as quite a threat) when supported by the DP.

3) I still need to work out how to reliably get the DP into melee without getting him killed first.

4) I also need to get better at positioning Ahriman so he can be where he needs to be without getting shot off the board.

For a higher points game I think I'll ally a Chaos Knight Desecrator and see how that pans out.

I use this list at 1,100pts. I think it would be better with a character who can lead the Scarabs though, and I've yet to see Ahriman and the DP earn their points. Having sad that, I have won 2 out of 2.

I just played an event and faced imperial knights 2 out of 3 games. It still feels like a miserable match up for thousand sons. Does anyone have any good tech against them?

Or does anyone have any fun combos to just try out while suffering against the meta lol. I’ve been considering cabal spam with a helbrute nearby to generate more cabals

Drdotts wrote:
I just played an event and faced imperial knights 2 out of 3 games. It still feels like a miserable match up for thousand sons. Does anyone have any good tech against them?

Or does anyone have any fun combos to just try out while suffering against the meta lol. I’ve been considering cabal spam with a helbrute nearby to generate more cabals

Magnus can kill a big boy per turn with shooting+melee. Both Magnus and the Termie block have a 2+ save in cover against one of the most popular builds, the double-cannon knight, so even though he's getting like 26 shots on average, you can probably get away with losing a single Termie or 3 wounds on Magnus.

Ignore armor on a big boy, blast it with Termie Psychic bolters, and follow up with Magnus for a dead Knight.

Use Ahriman's free strat in the fight phase to take out an Armiger. Assuming a few bodyguards died to shooting, you're still getting like 6-8 wound from the squad and then damage 3 attacks from Ahriman.

Bring an allied Changeling. He's great for many secondaries, as well as for holding your back objective if you move away.

My current Enhancements are Vortex on the Termie Sorcerer (it seems pretty good for his smite, and it also works well with his bolter and his melee), Scrolls on the backfield sorcerer (since he can't get shot he'll generate for longer), and Crystan on an Infernal Master (who yeets a min-flamer squad somewhere).

Thanks for the feedback, but please tell in what world Magnus only loses 3 wounds to 2 helverins, 2 warglaives, a crusader, warden and errant. We’re obviously playing different versions of the game.

Drdotts wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, but please tell in what world Magnus only loses 3 wounds to 2 helverins, 2 warglaives, a crusader, warden and errant. We’re obviously playing different versions of the game.

I don't know about Magnus only losing 3 wounds, but you can probably have him survive in general if you:

Always have Impossible Form active.

Turn a failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate.

Turn a second failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp.

Turn a third failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore.

Re-roll a failed save with Weaver of Fates.

Re-roll a second failed save with a Command Re-roll.

(Re-roll a third failed save with Weaver of Fates + Echoes of the Warp if you didn't use EotW in combination with DbF above.)

(Re-roll a fourth failed save with Weaver of Fates + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore, if you didn't use EotW and LoFL in combination with DbF above.)

Of course, even all these tricks up Magnus' sleeve won't save him if your opponent rolls well / you roll poorly, but it should do the trick.

Edit: Did some quick math on the knight-list you mention.

2 Helverins will on average do 8,88 D2 (A.Autocannons) wounds before saves, their Anti-Fly 2+ is really dangerous. Luckily you can potentially hide from them.

2 Warglavies will on average do 1,78 D6 -1 (Thermal Spear) wounds before saves.

1 Errant will on average do 1,88 D1 (Icarus AC) wounds + 1,78 D6 -1 (Thermal Cannon) wounds before saves.

1 Warden will on average do 1,88 D1 (Icarus AC) wounds + 4 D1 (Gatling) wounds before saves.

1 Crusader will on average do 1,88 D1 (Icarus AC) wounds + 4 D1 (Gatling) + 2,89 D2 (R-F BC) wounds before saves.

Math isn't 100%, but you get the gist of it.
I didn't account to all the various small-arms guns (stuff with few shots that wound Magnus on 5+ and 6+) nor any potential rules that might come into effect like Aggressive Assault on the Errant, because these are not necessarily active.
This is also with the entire IK-list shooting at Magnus (outside Melta-range), which probably won't happen and if it does you're playing with way to little LoS-blocking terrain.
All 3 big knights also have Icarus Autocannons which your opponent might not necessarily field. The other 2 options (Ironstorm Missile Pod/Stormspear Rocket Pod) are inferior against Magnus specifically, so if he fields those, the maths improve in his favor.

All in all, you're looking at on average 13,64 D1 wounds (Icarus AC/Gatling), 11,77 D2* wounds (A. Autocannons/R-F Battlecannons) and 3,56 D6 -1 wounds (Thermal Spears/Cannons) before saves.
(*Majority of these come from the 2 Armiger Helverins. Watch out for those.)

After saves you're looking at 6,81 D1, 5,88 D2 and 1,78 D6 -1 wounds, resulting in on average 23,02 wounds (14,14 if you hide from/kill the Helverins).
Turn some of those into Damage 0, add some re-rolls (and better yet, hide from the Helverins) and Magnus should have no problems surving.

Thank you I really appreciate the breakdown on his survival, I will try those things next time. But it’s really hard to pull those off turn one when I don’t have cabal points because I’m going second.

Also helverins are base damage 3 and he had them at damage 4 with a strat. It was pretty painful. And due to Magnus wing tips I can’t hide him behind any terrain successfully

Drdotts wrote:
Thank you I really appreciate the breakdown on his survival, I will try those things next time. But it’s really hard to pull those off turn one when I don’t have cabal points because I’m going second.

Also helverins are base damage 3 and he had them at damage 4 with a strat. It was pretty painful. And due to Magnus wing tips I can’t hide him behind any terrain successfully

Yeah not going first hurts since you can't do any rituals.
Magnus can still get his Impossible Form of however, (for that crucial -1 damage taken, hence why Helverins become D2), since that activates at the start of the battle round.

Helverins can only become Damage 4 from Squire's Duty if the Knight-army is Honoured, which they are extremely unlikely to be the first turn(s) of the game.

Not being able to hide Magnus ... yeah, not much you can do there I suppose.
You *should* still play with terrain high (and wide) enough to hide him from Helverins. Remember that terrain rules are still a bit abstract and block all LoS if it's a certain height, and Helverins (and Magnus) aren't Towering.

Terrain height irrelevant for magnus. Ruin block los regardless of height. It's width that is issue due to wings.

Of course if you hide slow to go around ruin.

Btw " Turn a third failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore"

This doesn't work for magnus. Enchantment can't be given to magnus and free stratagem applies only to enchantment owner.

My Magnus rarely takes damage on the first turn, and even into T2 I am still hiding him.
Terrain is definitely a big factor in how games pan out. If you're using the player-placed terrain minigame before deployment, try to minimize lanes of fire so that no one downtown can take a potshot at your Termies or Magnus. Stay outside ruins until you have the shot you want to take.
My Magnus might not connect with anything until T3 sometimes, he just hangs back and buffs the Termies and provides a serious deterrent.
This might seem like a waste of points but it's better that he does heavy lifting later in the game than get one good shooting phase and then die in return.

tneva82 wrote:

Btw " Turn a third failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore"

This doesn't work for magnus. Enchantment can't be given to magnus and free stratagem applies only to enchantment owner.

Ahh you're right.

Can still be used to give him an additional (potentially) third re-roll on a failed save though, so I guess 2 attacks turned to D0 and 3 re-rolls it is:

Destined by Fate on Magnus.
Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp on Magnus.
Weaver of Fates on Magnus / on a TS psyker within 18" of Magnus.
Command Reroll on Magnus.
Weaver of Fates + Lord of Forbidden Lore on a TS psyker within 18" of Magnus.

so, second game with tsons this edition, vs guard, at 1k agian.

my force was a slight tweak to my last list (which is in this thread, a while back)

Ahriman on disk (warlord)
Exalted sorcerer (scrolls)
shaman (vortex)

10 bolter rubrics with soulreaper (exalted attached)
5 bolter rubrics with soulreaper
5 flamer rubics with soulreaper (ahriman attached)
10 tzaangor

5 scarabs with soulreaper and hellfire missiles

3 enlightened with bows (shaman attached)



my opponent ran:

Lord Solar
command squad
commissar

20 infantry (attached command squad and lord solar)
20 infantry (attached commisar)
10 krieg
leman russ with punisher Gatling cannon
leman russ vanquisher.
vindicaire assassin.

board had a large city wall section down the middle that split the midboard into left and right sides, but otherwise mostly just low cover.


i won the roll off for starting, raced the enlightened up to a firing position where they almost killed the command squad captain on turn one, plus the shamans mutating orb with BLAST had fun with a 26 man unit. the big bolter unit and the flamers moved up one flank, and did a number on the commissars squad, while the tzanngor moved up the other flank, and the small bolters sat on the home objective. his turn one, he managed with great expenditure to kill the enlightened (but NOT the shamen) and a few tzaangor, but genneraly bounced.

My turn two, i used twist of fate on his vanquisher, and in combination with lethal hits on the big bolter squad, and all three characters throwing their spells at it, was able to delete that tank and reduce the commisars squad to just the commissar. the tzanngor charged the krieg but failed to kill them all. hes turn two, he brought the commisars squad back on via strategem, this time on the tzanngor flank to push towards my home objective, succeeded in killing the shaman, and failed to kill the tzanngor in melee.

my third turn, i was able to bring my big bolter block into LOS of his home objective (being held by the remains of the lord solar's squad), and remove everyone but the lord solar himself, pushing him off that objective at the start of his turn (the lord solar being too far to away to score). my termies came out of deep strike, twist of fate'd the other russ, and managed a 10" charge to get into melee, where they mauled but did not kill it. his turn 3, he brought back the lord solars former squad to threaten the left side point (and lost half the squad to flamer overwatch). he also killed the small bolter squad on my home objective. the termies were able to kill the Russ in his fight phase as well

turn 4 saw the lord solar die to massed bolters, and the leman russ to kopesh slashes. in his turn 4, he got a squad on my back objective, and he shot the flamer rubircs down (and wounded ahriman), then he managed to kill the tzanngor (finallly!), and managed to claim the point they were contesting with the ever-regenerating Krieg squad.

my turn 5, ahriman died to overwatch trying to position himself to attack my home objective, and i killed the Vindicare which had managed to only kill the shamen all game. we called it their his turn 5 scoring woudl leave him trailing 20 to my 25, so he conceded.

overall, happy with how the game went. the attrition units lasted much longer than expected, the big bolter squad never even lost a man thanks to the 4++, but did a lot of hard work. the termies basically held one flank for half a game, and twist of fate combined with strat-enabled leathal hits really hit his tanks hard. the guards ability to regenerate their chaff was annoying, but i was able to keep them mostly pruned while still dealing with his tanks, plus the 2CP strat ate up almost all his CP. this was my first time running the enlightened, and i'm happy enough with their performance for a 45 point unit. They were only one dice roll away form killing the platoon commander on turn one, so it could easily have happened, especially if d run a 6 man squad.

Wow we got SMASHED! Not as bad as Eldar, but pretty close. Basically everything went up. I mean Magnus, Mutilith, Ahriman, yea I can see, but Rubrics up 10 points for 5? That seems like it is a bit much. I guess we will see

The list I'd been running went up about 250pts, so I've got two new ones. Anyone have any thoughts about these?

No Termies

This list eschews the typical Terminator death block for a Rubric block that, while it doesn't have quite as much firepower or durability, is literally half the points. Stick an Infernal Master with Crystal to lead these guys, and they can deploy waaay back to gain some safety and then teleport forward T1 to get the drop on a scary target. If you have the armor turned off your target, then maybe select Lethal Hits for this round, otherwise stay in DevWounds as usual.
Since we can't double-dip into the ignore damage strat anymore, maybe we spend those sorcery points on the reroll everything strat instead so that both Magnus and this unit get it!
Stand next to Magnus, buff the bolters, and you're getting 20 shots hitting on 2s (from Magnus), Sustained 1 (from Master), Lethal (from Army). That's roughly 22 hits (get three 1s and convert two of them with the reroll and also get three 6s), +1 to wound means we're wounding T6-9 on 4s and T10+ on 5s. Add in the Master's 2d6 S7 shots, for another roughly 5 and I'd say that's a solid 18 wounds into a tough target from this unit. If you did the average (5) from Doombolt at the start, then you've done 23 wounds on a Knight. If you're below average, finish it with the Terminator Sorcerer, Magnus, or the Mutalith, maybe.

Still Termies

This one has fewer units, but still counts on the Occult Block to smash face. It's very similar to the list I had been running, so I want to try out the first one and see if Rubrics are decent performers. The combi-bolters as opposed to inferno bolters are just so much better, with over twice as many shots (but for twice the points). 10 Terminators with cannons/missiles and a leader, in RF range, will get 36 bolter shots, 12 cannon shots, and 4 missile shots. Next to Magnus, buffed, that's a lot of hits on 2s and wounds on 5s, as well as lethal and sustained and even some damage 3.
If we do the same setup as the above Rubrics... 35 bolter hits, 27 wounds. Then 8 hits and 1-2 DWs from the cannons, then 3 hits and 1-2 wounds from the missiles, THEN 3 hits and 6 MWs from the Termie Sorcerer's smite. YIKES!

Any suggestions on how to effectively use a DP (without wings)? So far, because a DP can't lead a unit, I'm finding it gets blown off the board before it can ever get into melee or anywhere useful.