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ph34r wrote:

This is an awesome flowchart, thanks for posting it.

Hopefully this will put to bed the idea that a force weapon is a 1-handed weapon.

The argument before was as follows:

1. Nemesis Falchion = Nemesis weapon
2. Nemesis Weapon = Force weapon
3. Force Weapon = Power weapon
4. Power weapon = 1 handed ccw.

Since the picture above plainly illustrates that a Force Weapon is not a power weapon (Force weapons "have the same effect as power weapons"), this argument is clearly shot down.

Like I said before: in order to show that you get +2, you have to show:
1) The model gets +1 attack from 2 single-handed CCW. This has still not been shown.
2) The +1 bonus from a Nemesis Falchion is in addition to any additional attacks for having 2 weapons. This also has still not been shown.

Seriously, there has been no evidence that the +1 attack recited is a special bonus, as opposed to being merely explanatory of the bonus for 2 CCW (assuming there is a 2 ccw bonus)

In order to show that you only get +1, it doesn't matter if either of the above are true. Either:
1) The model is wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is merely explanatory; or
2) The model is not wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is a bonus for wielding them as a pair.

Well, its one of two key points.

The other key point ph34r nailed by explaining in pictures something that other posters couldnt understand after 19 pages of text, which is that you have a pair of CCW when you have a pair of Falchions.

The two combined prove that, RAW, RAI and fluff, you get +2A. Amusingly noone has even attempted to counter this argument, just yet more whining about it being "overpowered" (despite proof to the contrary given multiple times, which has also been ignored) from the usual suspects.

Hopefully this is laid to rest now, and just *possibly* GW may actually FAQ this the right, RULES consistent way, for a change

You can't make a conclusory statement and then assert it hasn't been countered, and therefore is correct.

This has been going on for 21 pages. Obviously the issue is far from settled.

If I ever played in a tournament against a GK player with 2 Falchions, I would let him have +1 attack to his profile, because that's all the rules say he gets.

biccat wrote:
Since the picture above plainly illustrates that a Force Weapon is not a power weapon (Force weapons "have the same effect as power weapons"), this argument is clearly shot down.

So by this logic then, regular Power Weapons are not single handed CCW? Because it doesn't say they are in the description of power weapons in the BRB. So a model with 2 power weapons does not get +1A for having 2 CCW? It doesn't say they are single handed, it doesn't say they are allowed to be used with another single handed weapons for the +1A. The FAQ doesn't list Power Weapons as counting as a single handed weapon. Just going down the list of "common special close combat weapons" on Pg 42...Lightning Claws? Nope not single handed. Poisoned weapons? Nope. Power fists? Nope. Thunder hammers...guess the SSTH Termies need to drop their shield to wield one of these because they aren't listed as being 1 handed. Rending weapons? Witchblades?

No special weapon is defined specifically as being single handed. Which could be why, unless a weapon is listed as being "Two-handed" then is by default single handed. Force weapons, and therefore Nemesis Force Weapons are no exception.

biccat wrote:Seriously, there has been no evidence that the +1 attack recited is a special bonus, as opposed to being merely explanatory of the bonus for 2 CCW (assuming there is a 2 ccw bonus)

In order to show that you only get +1, it doesn't matter if either of the above are true. Either:
1) The model is wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is merely explanatory; or
2) The model is not wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is a bonus for wielding them as a pair.

In the spirit of the other flow chart, here's a picture of the page in the GK Codex that defines what a Nemesis Force Weapon is, and what the different types of Nemesis Force Weapons are. You'll see that in the box, all NFW are defined to have 3 things. They are Force Weapons, have the Daemonbane special rule, and have "one or more further abilities". Yes that clearly says "ABILITIES" Now if you look through all the different types of NFF, where the extra ABILITIES are listed under the heading for "NEMESIS FORCE FLACHIONS" their extra ABILITY is +1A when used as a pair. That clearly makes it an "ABILITY" and not a re-explanation of the BRB rules for how models equipped with special weapons work.

FlingitNow wrote:

I do love how +1 power weapon attack is considered "Useless" though....

Right would you pay 30 points for that? Lets for instance take a SM Chaplain has a power weapon basic. Say he ha sthe bolter option.

IN line with the GK where the DH is 5+ and the Falcions 10 points.

We can see a PF is 15 points for the chaplian (slightly less of an upgrade than DH). So would you pay 30 points (double the 15 upgrade) to get him an extra bolt pistol (to give him +1 attacks for double armed what you are claim the falcions do)?

Who here would pay 30 points for that bolt pistol?

So points wise the falcions becoe useless if they are indeed +1 attack. RaW they are +2 attacks, their points cost means they should be +2 attacks and fluff indicates they should be +2 attacks.

Granted that doesn't mean they won't be FaQ'd to +1 attack, but that is far from guarnateed either. We'll see until then it is +2 attacks.

Lets compare apples to apples ok? a Chaplian starts out at 100 points.
Vanguard Vets start at 20.... with power armor, bolt pistol and chain sword. Pg 139 of C:SM states that "any model may replace his bolt pistol and/or chain sword for..... (third entry listed) a power weapon or lightening claw (note: single claw) for a cost of +15 points.
To give that model two power weapons (or Lightening Claws) it would cost 30 points making the model worth 50 points.... while losing ANY shooting attack and without any additional powers or abilities. It also only grants ONE bonus attack.

30 points on a 20 point model for two power weapons granting one extra attack.
VS
5 points on a 30 point model for a "pair " of power weapons that grant one extra attack.
Which is the better value?

As for the argument concerning the "single handed" status.... No where in any of the material provided does it say that FW are single handed.

That's not apples to apples. That's apples to a potato.

Vanguard vets are a garbage option, you can look at any comparison between VVs and Terms of either flavor to figure out why. The entire reason to take VVs (in the BA codex, never vanilla Marines) is because you can get an assault off of the deep strike, meaning that your opponent never gets the opportunity to shoot your elite CC squad. Therein lies the price premium that you take umbrage with; how many points is a special rule worth on top of the equipment? Undoubtedly "more". That's why VVs to GKs is apples to potatoes.

Apples to apples is Nemesis force weapons to other NFW. Every other variable is controlled for, and the bonuses granted/lost by the individual upgrades can be compared.

helgrenze wrote:
Lets compare apples to apples ok? a Chaplian starts out at 100 points.
Vanguard Vets start at 20.... with power armor, bolt pistol and chain sword. Pg 139 of C:SM states that "any model may replace his bolt pistol and/or chain sword for..... (third entry listed) a power weapon or lightening claw (note: single claw) for a cost of +15 points.
To give that model two power weapons (or Lightening Claws) it would cost 30 points making the model worth 50 points.... while losing ANY shooting attack and without any additional powers or abilities. It also only grants ONE bonus attack.

30 points on a 20 point model for two power weapons granting one extra attack.
VS
5 points on a 30 point model for a "pair " of power weapons that grant one extra attack.
Which is the better value?

You're still not comparing Apples to Apples. You're comparing a model with NO Power weapon attacks to upgrade all attacks to Power Weapon Status, and then paying to upgrade to an additional attack. The GK already comes with power weapon attacks, he's only paying for the additional attacks.

A closer (not perfect but closer) comparison would be a SW: Wolf Guard with Terminator Armor and a GK Terminator.
WG: 33 pts (18 base + 15 for Terminator armor and power weapons/SB).
+15 Points to upgrade power weapon to allow all hit-or-wounds to re-roll (Wolf Claw)
+5 points for +1A (second wolf Claw)

GKT: 40 pts base
+5 Points for 2A.

Yes the WG had to pay 20 points total for 1 extra attack, but that also includes the cost of re-rolling all hits or wounds.

helgrenze wrote:As for the argument concerning the "single handed" status.... No where in any of the material provided does it say that FW are single handed.

Correct, but then again no where does it say power weapons are single handed, yet it's NEVER be argued that they were, or that taking 2 of them on a character lets you use both the power weapon ability, and get +1A for having 2 single handed CCW.

unless a CCW is EXPLICITY STATED to not be single handed it is ALWAS assumed to be single handed.

Force Weapons are CCWs therefore are singlehanded.

Falchions are Force Weapons, therefore are singlehanded.


you get 2 Falchions, therefore you get +1A for wielding 2 CCWs.

the Falchion rules also state that you get +1A when wielding a pair of Falchions. as this is NOT EXPLICITY STATED AS BEING THE BONUS FOR 2 CCWs, IT IS NOT THE BONUS FOR WIELDING 2 CCWs.


therefore, you get +2A for wielding a pair of Nemisis Falchions.

biccat wrote:
Like I said before: in order to show that you get +2, you have to show:
1) The model gets +1 attack from 2 single-handed CCW. This has still not been shown.

Seriously, have look at the model. Does it wield a pair of Flachions in one hand? No? Holdinga bundle of two Flachions wilth both hands at the same time? No? Wow, it's two one handed weapons! Who would ever have guessed that a PAIR actually refers to TWO weapons instead of one. GW really screwed that up that one! And check it out: Snikrot is wielding A PAIR of "Morks Teeth", that count as TWO CCW. Awesome.

2) The +1 bonus from a Nemesis Falchion is in addition to any additional attacks for having 2 weapons. This also has still not been shown.

Seriously, there has been no evidence that the +1 attack recited is a special bonus, as opposed to being merely explanatory of the bonus for 2 CCW (assuming there is a 2 ccw bonus)

If the pair of falchions had no rules text at all they would confer 1 Bonus attack, right? So if you now replace "these funny swords do nothing" with "these funny swords add one Attack", you still get one attack? You realize "has +1 attack" is the exact same wording as the attack squig? Do you want to claim that attack squigs only add the attack for having two CCW, being no CCW whatsoever? How about Aura of Frevor or BA chapter banner? SW Living Legend? Pedro Cantor? I grabbed random codices and instantly found examples of rules worded exactly the same not working the way you describe. Need more evidence?

In order to show that you only get +1, it doesn't matter if either of the above are true. Either:
1) The model is wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is merely explanatory; or
2) The model is not wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is a bonus for wielding them as a pair.

You seem to be suffering from the illusion that only one of those can be incorrect. They are both wrong.

helgrenze wrote:
30 points on a 20 point model for two power weapons granting one extra attack.
VS
5 points on a 30 point model for a "pair " of power weapons that grant one extra attack.
Which is the better value?

Sorry, but very few of your numbers are correct here. It's only 15 pts on a 20pt model (that also has different and awesome special rules) to give +1 attack with all attacks being power weapons. It's 30 if you get lightning claws to re-roll wounds (and the +1 attack), which is substantially better than +2 attacks.

It's 10 pts for a 20 pt model, or it's 5 pts for a 40 pt model

biccat wrote: Hopefully this will put to bed the idea that a force weapon is a 1-handed weapon.

The argument before was as follows:

1. Nemesis Falchion = Nemesis weapon
2. Nemesis Weapon = Force weapon
3. Force Weapon = Power weapon
4. Power weapon = 1 handed ccw.

Since the picture above plainly illustrates that a Force Weapon is not a power weapon (Force weapons "have the same effect as power weapons"), this argument is clearly shot down.

Like I said before: in order to show that you get +2, you have to show:
1) The model gets +1 attack from 2 single-handed CCW. This has still not been shown.
2) The +1 bonus from a Nemesis Falchion is in addition to any additional attacks for having 2 weapons. This also has still not been shown.

Seriously, there has been no evidence that the +1 attack recited is a special bonus, as opposed to being merely explanatory of the bonus for 2 CCW (assuming there is a 2 ccw bonus)

In order to show that you only get +1, it doesn't matter if either of the above are true. Either:
1) The model is wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is merely explanatory; or
2) The model is not wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is a bonus for wielding them as a pair.

I am afraid you are incorrect.


1) just because a force weapon only has the same effect as a power weapon doesn't mean it still isn't a single handed CCW.

one of the effects of a PW is that it is a single handed CCW. the other, that it ignores armor saves.

For reference: a Blood Talon has the same effect as a LC(meaning you only gain a bonus attack if you have 2 of them and it rerolls to wound)


2) "The +1 bonus from a Nemesis Falchion is in addition to any additional attacks for having 2 weapons"

I don't have to show that it is in addition. it doesn't say that it isn't therefore, without explicit language forbidding the combination, I can combine the bonus with any and all other bonuses.


"1) The model is wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is merely explanatory; or
2) The model is not wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is a bonus for wielding them as a pair"


the +1A is not stated to be the bonus for wielding 2 CCWs, therefore it is a different bonus.

the bonus must be for wielding a pair of Falchions, not wielding a pair of CCWs.


but the 2 are NOT mutually exclusive as you seem to think.

you can have a bonus attack for wielding 2 Nemisis Falchions AND have another bonus attack for wielding 2 CCWs.

the fact that both are happening from the same piece of wargear is irrelavent.


a Pair of Falchions is simultainiously a Pair of Falchions and a Pair of CCWs.

both pairs, according to rules that have been overquoted in this thread already, give +1A.

the rules for both are satisfied in a Pair of Falchions.

My warboss gets +1 Attack with his S10 powerfist for 15 points on a 120 pt model. So what does this have to do with rules on Nemesis Toothpicks?

sourclams wrote:That's not apples to apples. That's apples to a potato.

Vanguard vets are a garbage option,

ok,
what made you think that GK codex don't have garbage options, and Falchions not one of them? Every book from GW have like 1/3 as useless garbage, what made you think that GK are special in that case? GW fck up with rules\units\option in every book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rephistorch wrote:

helgrenze wrote:
30 points on a 20 point model for two power weapons granting one extra attack.
VS
5 points on a 30 point model for a "pair " of power weapons that grant one extra attack.
Which is the better value?

Sorry, but very few of your numbers are correct here. It's only 15 pts on a 20pt model (that also has different and awesome special rules) to give +1 attack with all attacks being power weapons. It's 30 if you get lightning claws to re-roll wounds (and the +1 attack), which is substantially better than +2 attacks.

It's 10 pts for a 20 pt model, or it's 5 pts for a 40 pt model

purifiers already cost 24ppm and have same stats as other marines, but additionally +1A, +1LD, FW, Storm Bolter, Psyker powers - Hammerhand\Cleansing flame. Do you still pretend that they are costly? Cost more then marine?
Termies? Same cost as every other termies (except SW who pay for them less then everyone) But they are scoring, they have FW, they have Hammerhand, they have anti-psyke grens.
so just don't even try to speak that "5/10pts" are TOO much for "useless" +1A.
Right now GK looks like just another "overpowered" SM codex (time will show - true this or no) that have all things as others + some pretty nifty bonus above that.

biccat wrote:
Hopefully this will put to bed the idea that a force weapon is a 1-handed weapon.

Dude, seriously. Look at the flowchart again. Notice the part on page 42 where Force Weapons are listed under the heading CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS. How much more obvious does it have to be?

penek wrote:

sourclams wrote:That's not apples to apples. That's apples to a potato.

Vanguard vets are a garbage option,

ok,
what made you think that GK codex don't have garbage options, and Falchions not one of them? Every book from GW have like 1/3 as useless garbage, what made you think that GK are special in that case? GW fck up with rules\units\option in every book.

Yes, Games Workshop feth up rules all the time. That isn't a valid counter argument, as they haven't fethed up here...

You're still not comparing Apples to Apples. You're comparing a model with NO Power weapon attacks to upgrade all attacks to Power Weapon Status, and then paying to upgrade to an additional attack. The GK already comes with power weapon attacks, he's only paying for the additional attacks.

A closer (not perfect but closer) comparison would be a SW: Wolf Guard with Terminator Armor and a GK Terminator.
WG: 33 pts (18 base + 15 for Terminator armor and power weapons/SB).
+15 Points to upgrade power weapon to allow all hit-or-wounds to re-roll (Wolf Claw)
+5 points for +1A (second wolf Claw)

GKT: 40 pts base
+5 Points for 2A.

Yes the WG had to pay 20 points total for 1 extra attack, but that also includes the cost of re-rolling all hits or wounds.

Again not an accurate picture because the falcions are half the strength that a 40 pt GK Terminator has (i.e. through having a daemon hammer which he gets for free).

Basically in every incidence in he GK codex the Falcions are more expensive than the Daemon Hammer. If someone finds another codex where +1 attack is more points than double your strength then you have a point on the points cost. But in every other codex ever doubling your strength is more points than +1 attack. Infact in every other codex you pay points for doubling your strength at the cost of an extra attack, (i.e. Sergeant dumping powersword for powerfist losing the bonus attack from being double armed).

So the points value thing is as cut and dried as the RaW that it is +2A. That is indisputable.

That doesn't mean that RaI is +2A as we all know GW will sometimes put in massively overcosted options (and under costed ones). But it is an indication as is the fluff as is the RaW. Everything points to +2 attacks and that must be how it is played until an FaQ says differently (which it might do, but very well might not too). Because even at +2 attacks it will not be the option everyone selects (I doubt anyone would take it on Strikes, very few would put it on Terminators, Paladins might get it and Purifiers might get it but even then not across the board). +1 Attack effectively takes it out of the codex.

biccat wrote:You can't make a conclusory statement and then assert it hasn't been countered, and therefore is correct.

This has been going on for 21 pages. Obviously the issue is far from settled.

If I ever played in a tournament against a GK player with 2 Falchions, I would let him have +1 attack to his profile, because that's all the rules say he gets.

You have yet to show any rules that support that, nor have you been able to show that a NFW is not a single handed CCW.

1) A NFW is a single CCW
2) the bonus for 2CCW is not the +1 Attack you get for a PAIR of Falchions; the latter is the SPECIAL ABILITY of the Falchion.

How many more times can you be shown the rules for you to ignore them?

PLease do so or refrain from posting in contravention of the tenets of YMDC.

FlingitNow wrote:

You're still not comparing Apples to Apples. You're comparing a model with NO Power weapon attacks to upgrade all attacks to Power Weapon Status, and then paying to upgrade to an additional attack. The GK already comes with power weapon attacks, he's only paying for the additional attacks.

A closer (not perfect but closer) comparison would be a SW: Wolf Guard with Terminator Armor and a GK Terminator.
WG: 33 pts (18 base + 15 for Terminator armor and power weapons/SB).
+15 Points to upgrade power weapon to allow all hit-or-wounds to re-roll (Wolf Claw)
+5 points for +1A (second wolf Claw)

GKT: 40 pts base
+5 Points for 2A.

Yes the WG had to pay 20 points total for 1 extra attack, but that also includes the cost of re-rolling all hits or wounds.

Again not an accurate picture because the falcions are half the strength that a 40 pt GK Terminator has (i.e. through having a daemon hammer which he gets for free).

Alright, give that free hammers to all your termies, and we get some funny time watching your 40ppm toys dying in melee, because of Ini1 and 5++ (oh noees.. you dont have SS!?zomgwhattodo...)

Penek - could you occasionally post some rules to suypport your position? You have consistently failed to do so.

If you want to argue tactics, there's an appropriate forum for that...

Hmm, the smallest dose of logic and thought settled this problem for me on contact:

Pair = 2

Falchion = a smallish ONE HANDED sword.

Special abiliity - +1 attack (no refrence to BRB)

BRB - two single handed weapons = +1 attack

1 + 1 = 2

*wanders off*

Alright, give that free hammers to all your termies, and we get some funny time watching your 40ppm toys dying in melee, because of Ini1 and 5++ (oh noees.. you dont have SS!?zomgwhattodo...)

To be honest most poeple take 1 hammer and the rest halberds. So either half strength or - 2I...

The point still remains that you can't find a single codex where +1 attack is more points than double strength. Unless you post examples of that I assume you are in agreement with me and Nos and any other points about the points cost are just you highlighting how weak their argument is by parodying it...

VoidAngel wrote:Hmm, the smallest dose of logic and thought settled this problem for me on contact:

Pair = 2

Falchion = a smallish ONE HANDED sword.

Special abiliity - +1 attack (no refrence to BRB)

BRB - two single handed weapons = +1 attack

1 + 1 = 2

*wanders off*

This
simple as that

Apparently its not enough for some posters, who believe that the existence of 21 pages shows its unclear, and not just a rules reading failure.

biccat wrote:This is an awesome flowchart, thanks for posting it.

Hopefully this will put to bed the idea that a force weapon is a 1-handed weapon.

The argument before was as follows:

1. Nemesis Falchion = Nemesis weapon
2. Nemesis Weapon = Force weapon
3. Force Weapon = Power weapon
4. Power weapon = 1 handed ccw.

Since the picture above plainly illustrates that a Force Weapon is not a power weapon (Force weapons "have the same effect as power weapons"), this argument is clearly shot down.

Like I said before: in order to show that you get +2, you have to show:
1) The model gets +1 attack from 2 single-handed CCW. This has still not been shown.
2) The +1 bonus from a Nemesis Falchion is in addition to any additional attacks for having 2 weapons. This also has still not been shown.

Seriously, there has been no evidence that the +1 attack recited is a special bonus, as opposed to being merely explanatory of the bonus for 2 CCW (assuming there is a 2 ccw bonus)

In order to show that you only get +1, it doesn't matter if either of the above are true. Either:
1) The model is wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is merely explanatory; or
2) The model is not wielding 2 single-handed CCW and the +1 is a bonus for wielding them as a pair.

Who cares. Force weapon doesn't have to be a power weapon.
We already know a Force Weapon is single handed. This is a fact. Just as much as a power sword is single handed, a Force Weapon is. They both have the exact same wording regarding their handedness: none. A pair of falchions is a pair of force weapons because all Nemesis weapons are force weapons.

Just read the damn flow chart. Two of any of the same special close combat weapon = +1 attack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Apparently its not enough for some posters, who believe that the existence of 21 pages shows its unclear, and not just a rules reading failure.

its depressing i know, the stubbornness of some people is plainly ridiculous, especially after the final nail in the coffin, the flow chart. Its all there, in simple picture form, with accompanying proof.
*sigh*

BOTH flow charts, to nail both parts of why you get +2A

Apparently even then it isnt enough, as Biccat is still stubbornly insisting that FW are not single handed CCW, despite being under the special CCW heading and the FAQ stating that ALL CCW are single handed unless they state otherwise.

I doubt Biccat will be arguing that SM Libbies with a bolt pistol don't gain the +1 attack benefit though...

Yep, just remember - despite GW *never* normally stating the +1 attack bonus for 2 CCW this must CLEARLY be it, despite it being the inherent bonus that a Falchion gets, in the same way a halberd improves your initiaitve. Nope, they must CLEARLY be the same! /sarcasm

FlingitNow wrote:I doubt Biccat will be arguing that SM Libbies with a bolt pistol don't gain the +1 attack benefit though...

Sure I will. If a force weapon isn't a single-handed CCW, then you don't get a bonus for 2 CCW.

But would you agree that my Chaos Dreadnought with a DCCW and a ML will get 5 attacks? Because that's RAW.

I'm interested in discussing this further, but no one else appears to be. The only rules that have been cited by the +2 attacks crowd are against their position, yet they stubbornly cling to the idea that Nemesis Falchions give +2 attacks because it makes the option worth taking (how this applies to a rules argument is unclear).

The poll shows almost exactly a 50/50 split (4% undecided), so I'll wait for GW to provide a FAQ.

ph34r wrote:

No you're wrong it's 1 attack.



LALALALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALALALALALA



Prove to me and link from a GW source that 1+1 does in fact=2. Ha Ha you can't do that because 1+1=FISH therefor Nemesis Falchions=No attacks at all, and the GK player must now buy his opponent sushi for lunch.

biccat wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:I doubt Biccat will be arguing that SM Libbies with a bolt pistol don't gain the +1 attack benefit though...

Sure I will. If a force weapon isn't a single-handed CCW, then you don't get a bonus for 2 CCW.

But would you agree that my Chaos Dreadnought with a DCCW and a ML will get 5 attacks? Because that's RAW.

but a force weapon IS a single-handed CCW as has been proven countless times already on this thread.
ans since when has a ML been a DCCW