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Recently this seems to be the most common mentality among the wargaming community when it comes to 40k. As soon as GW releases a new product or rules update people say it will end the game. I have heard numerous accounts of people quitting altogether when 7th edition came out before playing any test games. Granted, people do have a right to complain and I certainly won't tell them to shut up, but don't you think they should at least give it a little time?

No, I don't. With all the leaks, people tend to know what's going to be, and then can critique it as it shows up. Consumers have the right to voice displeasure, especially when you're paying a premium for trash.

Something like Unbound is leaked and people criticize it and rightly so because it's obvious to anyone with a brain how open to abuse it might be. There's no point in waiting to see, because ultimately it's going to depend on the people you play with.

That's like arresting someone for no reason. "Well he looked suspicious!"

We also get threads like this every time a new product is released.

Almost like people on the Internet are individuals with their own thoughts, likes, and dislikes. Many of those people are also capable of thinking hard enough to consider the ramifications of the changes with each new rules addition.

Ignore the hyperbolic. On both sides of the equation.

 Random Dude wrote:
That's like arresting someone before they commit a crime. "Well he looked like a criminal!"

Not really. One can look at rules such as Unbound and immediately think "WTF were they thinking" because it's obvious that it's open to abuse. Waiting to see how it plays it isn't going to change the fact that it's broken rules. They anti-anti-GW crowd always seem to point out things about waiting and trying it, but the reality is that anyone intelligent can look at rules and see immediately if they are open to abuse (this is how things get abused in the first place). There's no reason to wait. A better analogy might be a car with faulty breaks - you can tell the breaks are faulty, but would you wait and see if they actually stop working before you worry about it? After all, they might work sometimes.

That's the most intelligent reply I've ever gotten on a forum.

 Random Dude wrote:
I have heard numerous accounts of people quitting altogether when 7th edition came out before playing any test games.

While I typically advocate trying something before making too many guesses... a lot of people have been playing long enough to know when they aren't going to like something beforehand. When it comes to core rules, we often know what we like and what we don't like about the current edition so when the rumours come out about the next edition, we know what changes we will and won't like.

Actually, you don't even have to be playing all that long to know things you will and won't like about the next edition. I started in 2nd edition and I remember being in GW soon after 3rd edition came out and the store manager telling me about some of the changes, many of which I liked and many of which I didn't... 16 years later many of the things I didn't like before I even played a game of 3rd I still don't like now. I only had to be told the changes to 8th ed Fantasy in a local store to decide the changes I didn't like... played a few games and guess what? I still didn't like it.

As soon as we heard about unbound armies and the FOC changes I didn't like it and I still don't like it because I want a game with some structure to the list building... 40k 6th edition had terrible structure and I wanted it fixed, not completely eliminated. I didn't need to play a game to know I didn't like that rule change.

 Random Dude wrote:
That's like arresting someone before they commit a crime. "Well he looked like a criminal!"

Actually is like arresting someone because he had gotten close to his victim, pulled out his knife and was just about to stab him.

Could the criminal have changed his mind before the actual stabbing happened? Sure.

Was it likely? Not really.

I don't need to actually eat a plate full of shards of glass and worms to know that it will be bad, I just need to look at it.
Especially when that big juicy stake is standing right next to it!*


*Are we done with the crappy metaphors already?

 Random Dude wrote:
Recently this seems to be the most common mentality among the wargaming community when it comes to 40k. As soon as GW releases a new product or rules update people say it will end the game.

No need to exaggerate. Not going to end the game, just make it even worse.

I have heard numerous accounts of people quitting altogether when 7th edition came out before playing any test games. Granted, people do have a right to complain and I certainly won't tell them to shut up, but don't you think they should at least give it a little time?

This parts true, a lot have quit. I don't need to eat dog-gak to know I won't like it, just like I don't need to play Maelstrom of War missions to know that the implementation of random objectives will not be fun for me as it's "objectively" (ba dum ts) flawed. It's not even so much that the rules aren't great, it's that after 7 edition GW still hasn't made them great. If hey haven't by now, they're never going to so why wait around.

As always, you can (mostly) ignore the voices saying that the game is ruined.

but pay attention to what voices you stop hearing. That shows you the real impact of rules on the community.

Recently? Check your history. People have been like this since 1988.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Recently? Check your history. People have been like this since 1988.

the major difference was that sales of 40k increased, despite the nerd rage, until a few years ago. There seems to be a different vibe to the current complaints, but YMMV.

People also usually had strong opinions about edition changes, but generally saw the new edition as an overall improvement. That has been less true.

I voted all three:
People should complain when the flaw is obvious, like a gigantic mistake in rulings or a 50% price-increase.
It's annoying when people complain that they don't like a model or a rule.
And sometimes people need to wait and actually test new things before deciding if it's for the better or worse.

 Random Dude wrote:
That's like arresting someone before they commit a crime. "Well he looked like a criminal!"

In most countries you get arrested for trying to commit a crime

The important thing is that people complain because they care.

I think people are a bit silly to complain about a model because they don't like it -- someone else likes it, just use a different model -- but it is all part and parcel of the intercourse of a discussion site so I don't meta-complain about the complainers.

Rules complaints are a bit different. We have in theory to play by the rules, so if we think they are badly done in some way it can be helpful to explain what we see as the problem.

Complaints are a form of customer feedback. People don't complain just for fashion or because they have plenty of free time.

Like with ANY document (or series of documents) when released, there is always an actual error to find.

Perfectly OK to point out and hope it gets fixed for future publications = better product.

Vague wording tends to get knickers in a knot since interpretations can go a bit wild so we are clamoring for a FAQ to clarify (standard order of operations). Again, something that can get updated as well in future publications = better product.

Rules open for abuse, take it to the max, spam, combine with other rules and you have a "broken" rule or a magic combination. Pretty much falls under the "vague wording" category of things may not have gone as the designer intended.

Final most irritating category: They "wanted it broken" or rules many just plain do not like (random for random sake, expect players to manage the fallout/details, fluff vs. competitive). This is the no winning category and the complaining is trying to direct the game to how the player wants it.

Complaining without pointing out the distinct problem and examples of why it is "bad" is then the unhelpful type this forum may be focusing on.

SKY IS FALLING! I have to read the BRB a couple more times and figure out a whole new way to cause trouble again.

 Polonius wrote:

People also usually had strong opinions about edition changes, but generally saw the new edition as an overall improvement. That has been less true.

3rd edition was considered an embarrassing nightmare at the time.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

People also usually had strong opinions about edition changes, but generally saw the new edition as an overall improvement. That has been less true.

3rd edition was considered an embarrassing nightmare at the time.

3rd edition was a change in direction that was needed but removed/changed several things for the worse. That's how I felt then, that's still how I feel now. Most my friends felt much the same way.

3rd edition was also only the 3rd edition of 40k and the 1st edition of that particular set of rules. We are now up to the 7th edition of 40k and the 4th edition in this particular set of rules. GW also now has significantly more competition... both of these things do somewhat raise the expectations of the community.

Previews and leaks come out: Everything is the worst thing ever

Good pictures, clear views of the rules, and actual products come out: Oh wait, that's not so bad, and in many cases, actually pretty good.

And then the cycle starts over again. People should just wait and see.

Realistically, 3rd edition 40K reset the game significantly in order to make it simpler and quicker to play.

4th and 5th editions were refinements of 3rd.

6th and 7th are refinements of 3rd, 4th and 5th, with increasing amounts of bolted on stuff that returns various aspects of the game to 2nd.

I am not sure if this is the best of all worlds or the worst of all worlds, but the complaints about 6th and 7th are of a different nature to the complaints about 4th and 5th.

I played 2nd and 3rd. I personally thought 3rd was a big improvement due to streamlining. It still had some kinks but I found it worlds better than 2nd and much closer to an actual wargame.

Now of course we're at some weird mishmash between 2nd and 3rd that does neither well.

1) There's people making valid complaints saying exactly why they think change X is bad

2) there are people just blindly ranting at GW,

3) there are people saying exactly why they like change X and

4) there are white knights blindly defending GW.

...and...

5) there are GW socket puppet accounts. Like, seriously.

Of those five, 2), 4) and 5) are the most vocal, but 1) and 3) are good reads and worthwhile to have.

GW really don't care what goes on on forums like these, and can you blame them? The atmosphere can become completely toxic within moments.

For that reason alone, most of the complaining is pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Xyptc wrote:
GW really don't care what goes on on forums like these, and can you blame them? The atmosphere can become completely toxic within moments.

For that reason alone, most of the complaining is pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things.

And yet because GW doesn't care what goes on in forums, people scream louder. So it's a cycle. Notice how there isn't half as much vehemence at Mantic, or PP, or Warlord or any of the other game companies? Because they HAVE forums where you can voice your opinion and have it acknowledged, sometimes even listened to.

Here we go, another 30 page gak-throwing-fest with no possible conclusion other than flaming, forum congestion, pointless negativity and garbage that noone comes to Dakkadakka to read. Strap in, or if you're sensible, eject.

Oh yeah, I get it, you have your sacred unqualified right to whine. Just go ahead and clog up the forums with pages and pages of worthless gak threads that worsen the mood of everyone on this forum and kill the feeling of wanting to return regularly to read actual good content.

It's a utility thing.

When people whine and complain, they are doing nothing useful at all. Not offering suggestions for how to make people's life better, not making people happy through enlightenment, not working to improve anything.

The only thing that whining does is make everybody else's life worse. Trying to make everybody else as miserable as yourself is a pretty unethical way to go through life, 40k not excluded. The message of "how dare you be happy? If only you were as smart as me and could understand how bad things really are" never ages well.

As such, I'm firmly in the "shut the hell up" camp. People can self-flatter by calling their opinions "valid" or "correct", but they will never make anyone else's lives better if it's just more pointless whining. Never reach utility.

If you want to make a difference, start up "this is how you can make 40k better" threads rather than making farting noises while pressing Ctrl+V on the same tired angry bile that was spewed last time you thought your opinion could nobly win your crusade against evil incarnate.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Previews and leaks come out: Everything is the worst thing ever

Good pictures, clear views of the rules, and actual products come out: Oh wait, that's not so bad, and in many cases, actually pretty good.

And then the cycle starts over again. People should just wait and see.

I rarely change my opinion from rumours through to the final release, so can I continue complaining? Cheers

I think the worst I've done was saying something looked like poo and then it came out and it looked better but it still looked like poo, only slightly less so, lol.

The sky is always falling for some people.
There are many very valid complaints to be had about Games Workshop, and many people that can put those forward very eloquently, but unfortenately they are often drowned out by the ranting of the GW-doomsayers.
I voted that people should just calm down and have patience. Put some thought in your complaints, and try to provide constructive criticism.

 Ailaros wrote:
The only thing that whining does is make everybody else's life worse. Trying to make everybody else as miserable as yourself is a pretty unethical way to go through life, 40k not excluded. The message of "how dare you be happy? If only you were as smart as me and could understand how bad things really are" never ages well.

Except a lot of complaining is trying to ward people away from GW and on to other games.

As such, I'm firmly in the "shut the hell up" camp. People can self-flatter by calling their opinions "valid" or "correct", but they will never make anyone else's lives better if it's just more pointless whining. Never reach utility.

If you want to make a difference, start up "this is how you can make 40k better" threads rather than making farting noises while pressing Ctrl+V on the same tired angry bile that was spewed last time you thought your opinion could nobly win your crusade against evil incarnate.

Welcome to the internet, 99.9% of it is frivolous, including the post you just made. If you expect people to rewrite the rules instead of complaining, I need some of what you're smoking. Give me $200,000 and a couple of years and yeah sure I'll fix the rules. Just because we want things fixed doesn't mean it's trivial... but we aren't the ones asking top dollar for half arsed rules now are we?

A lot of the complaining is people making suggestions on how it could be better. Is that useful? Probably about as useful as the post you just made trying to make the complainers feel bad about their complaining. Stop trying to make people feel bad!!!

The post you just made is even more useless than the complainers, if you want people to stop complaining, stop replying to them. As long as people reply to whining then it's not whining, it's discussion.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Here we go, another 30 page gak-throwing-fest with no possible conclusion other than flaming, forum congestion, pointless negativity and garbage that noone comes to Dakkadakka to read. Strap in, or if you're sensible, eject.

Oh yeah, I get it, you have your sacred unqualified right to whine. Just go ahead and clog up the forums with pages and pages of worthless gak threads that worsen the mood of everyone on this forum and kill the feeling of wanting to return regularly to read actual good content.

Yet, the only post in this thread so far with anything like the tone you're complaining about, is yours!


Besides, this is a sub forum for discussion and therefore by its very nature going to feature topics that are open ended, with no conclusive resolution and feature posters with differing opinions.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
The only thing that whining does is make everybody else's life worse. Trying to make everybody else as miserable as yourself is a pretty unethical way to go through life, 40k not excluded. The message of "how dare you be happy? If only you were as smart as me and could understand how bad things really are" never ages well.

Except a lot of complaining is trying to ward people away from GW and on to other games.

*Giggles*

I see what you did there...

*giggles again at the Matt Ward joke*


Personally I always take what I see with a pinch of salt, mainly because I like to make my own judgements with the physical rules in my hands and a few games with them under my belt, always preferring experience than "mathhammer armchair general", after all Some stuff I read may not make it in the rules so to me I don't see a point in complaining about fictions rules, always concentrating about the ones that do exist.