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Not attempt to manifest the same spell on itself, but in fact cast a spell on another unit. Like if you had 2 Space Marine Librarians in a squad of Tacticals, they both would not be able to cast smite. We know they couldn't both cast Gate of Infinity or whatever but what's the limitation on other spells? Just not finding it right now.

Hollismason wrote:
Not attempt to manifest the same spell on itself, but in fact cast a spell on another unit. Like if you had 2 Space Marine Librarians in a squad of Tacticals, they both would not be able to cast smite. We know they couldn't both cast Gate of Infinity or whatever but what's the limitation on other spells? Just not finding it right now.

This is getting into the whole "Psychic Unit" debate.

"no Unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic mower more than once per Psychic phase."

Basically Psyker Units are seperate, so each Librarian is a Seperate Psyker Unit. If you that them as seperate,everything works pretty well. If you lump them together, things get messy and break.


That them as seperate Osychic units for WC generation, casting powers, and perils and things work just fine.

That is how NOVA has FAQed it so far it's a good workable solution.

presumably it is to stop gamebreakers like the jetseer council from being so powerful.

in the previous edition, if 3 of them got fortune, they could attempt to cast it three times - so if the first attempt fails, that's alright, roll on the second guy, then again with the third if he fails too.
this edition means that if the jetseer council attempts to cast a power, then fails, that's it, the power failed. no second tries.

and let's be frank here. if you're putting more than 1 psyker in a unit, you're trying to make a deathstar and deserve the nerf in its entirety.

 Zagman wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Not attempt to manifest the same spell on itself, but in fact cast a spell on another unit. Like if you had 2 Space Marine Librarians in a squad of Tacticals, they both would not be able to cast smite. We know they couldn't both cast Gate of Infinity or whatever but what's the limitation on other spells? Just not finding it right now.

This is getting into the whole "Psychic Unit" debate.

"no Unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic mower more than once per Psychic phase."

Basically Psyker Units are seperate, so each Librarian is a Seperate Psyker Unit. If you that them as seperate,everything works pretty well. If you lump them together, things get messy and break.


That them as seperate Osychic units for WC generation, casting powers, and perils and things work just fine.

That is how NOVA has FAQed it so far it's a good workable solution.

That's what i thought Nova did, and BAO did, but couldn't find the rules entry thanks. Also I would like a "Psychic Mower"

 some bloke wrote:
presumably it is to stop gamebreakers like the jetseer council from being so powerful.

in the previous edition, if 3 of them got fortune, they could attempt to cast it three times - so if the first attempt fails, that's alright, roll on the second guy, then again with the third if he fails too.
this edition means that if the jetseer council attempts to cast a power, then fails, that's it, the power failed. no second tries.

and let's be frank here. if you're putting more than 1 psyker in a unit, you're trying to make a deathstar and deserve the nerf in its entirety.

Actually I think the rules prevent this because it says that attempting to manifest the same power on the same unit more than once is disallowed. However if you had two seperate targets you could in fact cast two seperate fortunes , one on your unit, one on the other, but would not be able to try to cast fortune on your unit more than once.

I think...

If you read the whole paragraph, the subject in question is the Psyker Unit, not any unit he may be joined to.

Hollismason wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
presumably it is to stop gamebreakers like the jetseer council from being so powerful.

in the previous edition, if 3 of them got fortune, they could attempt to cast it three times - so if the first attempt fails, that's alright, roll on the second guy, then again with the third if he fails too.
this edition means that if the jetseer council attempts to cast a power, then fails, that's it, the power failed. no second tries.

and let's be frank here. if you're putting more than 1 psyker in a unit, you're trying to make a deathstar and deserve the nerf in its entirety.

Actually I think the rules prevent this because it says that attempting to manifest the same power on the same unit more than once is disallowed. However if you had two seperate targets you could in fact cast two seperate fortunes , one on your unit, one on the other, but would not be able to try to cast fortune on your unit more than once.

I think...

no, the rules are that a unit cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once. you can cast the same power on a unit from 2 different units but a single unit cannot cast the same one twice.

Acctually, isnt there a rule stating that if the "unit" fails casting a power, that nobody in the unit can cast that power again for the rest of the turn anyway?

I thought it said manifest. I'm pretty sure it says manifest.

The problem with this is that "units" do not manifest powers, Psyker units do. Unit has to mean Psyker unit, or else it does not make any sense. Also worth mentioning, when a Farseer joins a unit of guardians, the guardians DO NOT become a Psyker unit. So when a second Farseer joins the same unit, you have 2 seperate Psyker units joined to a unit of Guardians. Therefore, both Farseers may cast with complete freedom.

I'm pretty sure you can't attempt to manifest the same blessing on a unit more than once.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
The problem with this is that "units" do not manifest powers, Psyker units do. Unit has to mean Psyker unit, or else it does not make any sense. Also worth mentioning, when a Farseer joins a unit of guardians, the guardians DO NOT become a Psyker unit. So when a second Farseer joins the same unit, you have 2 seperate Psyker units joined to a unit of Guardians. Therefore, both Farseers may cast with complete freedom.

Except when an IC joins a unit, he becomes a part of that unit for all rules purposes.

While it is probably how it is supposed to work, there is absolutely no support in the rules for treating those two Farseers as separate units for resolving psychic powers.

 insaniak wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
The problem with this is that "units" do not manifest powers, Psyker units do. Unit has to mean Psyker unit, or else it does not make any sense. Also worth mentioning, when a Farseer joins a unit of guardians, the guardians DO NOT become a Psyker unit. So when a second Farseer joins the same unit, you have 2 seperate Psyker units joined to a unit of Guardians. Therefore, both Farseers may cast with complete freedom.

Except when an IC joins a unit, he becomes a part of that unit for all rules purposes.

While it is probably how it is supposed to work, there is absolutely no support in the rules for treating those two Farseers as separate units for resolving psychic powers.

Psyker unit =/= unit joined by a Psyker. We have no permission for the Pskyker special rule to confer, and thus, the guardian unit does not have the rule.

We know from the rules that any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot, or Brotherhood of Psykers Special rule is a Psyker unit. The word unit is used multiple times throughout the book to refer to both single models, and groups of models. Here the word "unit" is used to represent both.

Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule, and any unit with the Brotherhood of Pskers special rule is a Pskyer unit.
This is the only way to read that rule without breaking the game.

With the way that most people are reading it, a Farseer attached to a Guardian unit will NEVER be able to cast a power as long as he is with them. This is because the Guardians are not a Psyker unit, and thus can never be selected to cast a power. The Farsser can not be selected seperately, as he is a part of the Guardian unit for all rules purposes, and his Psyker rule has no permission to confer to said unit.

Exactly.

You either treat the Psyker as invisible for generating warp charge, casting powers etc if attached to a unit, which seems the least likely RAI, or you ignore pretty much every use of the word 'unit' in the psychic phase section of the rulebook, treat every Psyker, or brotherhood, as a discrete, separate unit.

This allows most rules to function, and will allow characters attached to units that know the same power elsewhere within it, to cast the same power multiple times (but only once for each discrete occurrence of a Psyker which knows that power.)

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Psyker unit =/= unit joined by a Psyker. We have no permission for the Pskyker special rule to confer, and thus, the guardian unit does not have the rule.

Which means that a unit of Guardians with a Farseer joined to it is not a Psyker Unit, and since ICs count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes, the Farseer therefore can not be considered a separate unit and so can not cast powers and is not counted when tallying warp charges.

The word unit is used multiple times throughout the book to refer to both single models, and groups of models.

It's applied to single models when they are single model units. An IC joined to another unit is no longer a single model unit. He is a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Any model with the Psyker or Psychic Pilot special rule, and any unit with the Brotherhood of Pskers special rule is a Pskyer unit.
This is the only way to read that rule without breaking the game.

Except that isn't what the rules say. So the only solution to not break the game is apparently to re-write the psychic power rules...

With the way that most people are reading it, a Farseer attached to a Guardian unit will NEVER be able to cast a power as long as he is with them. This is because the Guardians are not a Psyker unit, and thus can never be selected to cast a power. The Farsser can not be selected seperately, as he is a part of the Guardian unit for all rules purposes, and his Psyker rule has no permission to confer to said unit.

Yes, that's how most people are reading it, and is the result of your statement right at the top of this post.

It's quite obviously not how it's supposed to work, but until GW get around to finishing writing the psychic rules, we won't know just how it is supposed to work.

Its pretty clear how it is supposed to work. Anything else breaks the game. I think we can all safely assume they didn't mean to break it.

The way i read it in the rule book made it pretty obvious, to me atleast, that "psyker unit" refers to brotherhood of psyker units and not two farseers attached to dire avengers. The farseers themselves are psychic units. A brotherhood unit cant cast iron arm twice in a row, makes perfect sense, they share a mastery level. Two seperate IC psykers, with their own mastery levels and powers, that joined a troop squad should be able to pop off two smites or iron arm twice so far as each is being cast by seperate psykers

 insaniak wrote:

While it is probably how it is supposed to work, there is absolutely no support in the rules for treating those two Farseers as separate units for resolving psychic powers.

...except that, if we treat them as the same Psychic unit, then we can't seem to resolve Perils very well (if at all), and Farseer Bob can cast the power(s) that only Farseer Sam knows.


I'll keep promoting my HIWPI, which is linked in my sig. I think it's a pretty safe way to play, and irons out these rules problems.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
...except that, if we treat them as the same Psychic unit, then we can't seem to resolve Perils very well (if at all), and Farseer Bob can cast the power(s) that only Farseer Sam knows.

Yes, the psychic rules are borked. As I believe I mentioned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 inquisitormaus wrote:
The way i read it in the rule book made it pretty obvious, to me atleast, that "psyker unit" refers to brotherhood of psyker units and not two farseers attached to dire avengers. The farseers themselves are psychic units.

How can they be units when they aren't units?

An IC joined to another unit is a part of that unit for all rules purposes. There is no stated exception to this in the psychic rules. So there is no justification within the rules for treating a psyker joined to another unit as a separate unit for resolving the psychic phase.

So if ive got tigurius and a libi in an assault squad i cant iron arm both psykers?

 inquisitormaus wrote:
So if ive got tigurius and a libi in an assault squad i cant iron arm both psykers?

No one really knows right now.

The rules are not very well written.

Isnt an IC considered a unit when alone?

Well in that case it's simply " What is the most beneficial rule that does not cause harm".

RAI , no they did not intend to break the game with rules. Yes, it can be confusing they are assuming that the person reading what they wrote will not intentionally read it in such away as to do something that breaks the game they designed.

I don't need a crystal ball to know that the writers intent is not malicious.

psykers and psychic pilots are psykers, brotherhood of psykers are a unit. Units cannot try and manifest the same power twice. two separate psykers who are not brotherhoods can try the same power twice.

Thats my thinking

 inquisitormaus wrote:
Isnt an IC considered a unit when alone?

When he's alone, yes.

The problem is, when he's joined to a unit, he's a part of that unit. And the rules don't tell us if only one model in the unit having the Psyker rule is sufficient to make the unit a 'psyker unit'.

It's possible that we're supposed to still consider the psyker a psyker unit even though he is no longer a unit anymore... But it's also possible that GW didn't want Farseers hiding in units of Guardians, or Rune Protests hanging at the back of a Grey Hunters squad...

Until they clarify it, all we can do is guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
... two separate psykers who are not brotherhoods can try the same power twice.

...unless they're in the same unit, as the rules specifically forbid a unit from casting the same power twice.

Do you actually play the game like that? I'm always curious when someone posts something like that, because I think to myself surely this person does not actually play the game like this.

Like do you not join your psykers to units.

Hollismason wrote:
Do you actually play the game like that? I'm always curious when someone posts something like that, because I think to myself surely this person does not actually play the game like this.

Like do you not join your psykers to units.

I play it as each non-brotherhood psyker being treated as a separate psyker unit, because I think that's most likely to be what was intended by the rules, as I have pointed out several times.

But I'm also careful to keep in mind that this is purely a guess and that it's possible that I'm playing it wrong, because that way of playing is just what I think works rather than anything that's actually supported by the rules. Given the number of things in 7th ed that I think are just downright insane design choices, I'm not prepared to just blindly assume that the interpretation that I think is the 'common sense' one must be the correct one.

I was just wondering it's sort of how we talk about Flickering Fire being well broken. Functionally. So we all play it how we think they'd make it work now.

The problem is, GW went to some length to make sure they well defined the terms for psyker and psychic unit.... then they proceeded to write rules that ignored those definitions.

Which leads to the problem... we don't know which rules are meant to use which definitions. It is quite possible that some of the rules are meant to be followed as written, and some are not. We just can't tell.....


The rules are *very* clear that a unit with multiple psykers in it can't attempt the same power more than once.
But other rules break if you use that definition.... So do you only change the rules that don't work as written (ie perils) or do you *also* change the rules that do work as written (ie the thread topic)

Well sometimes you go searching for Dragons and find Windmills, then the Windmills eat you.Just taking a nonsensical approach to reading and always trying to view it in illogical terms is kind of asinine.

I've brought this up before but in Paramedicine or EMS there's something called implied consent.

What this means is that a person who is unresponsive gives consent because any reasonable person would do so in that situation if asked.

There's actual implied consent in the rules themselves and the author and reader have an agreement that is unspoken, that the author is not maliciously misleading the reader and the reader is not purposefully misreading the author.

This "implied consent " terms of the rules doesn't need to be spelled out because we cannot approach the rules with the understanding that the author is purposefully being malicious and misleading with his words, because it would lead to the game being unplayable. The writer in turn has to write as if the player or reader who is reading his instructions is not going to purposefully misread his instructions because then it would make it impossible to write.

The problem you run into is that people seem to think that it's "okay to break it", it's not we do it here because well most of us enjoy argueing and it's fun to say "what if" and these types of " mental exercises" with the rules help us understand them better.

You cannot fundamentally approach the rules from a mindset that author is being purposefully vague. You have to in fact approach the rules as I stated earlier " the best outcome with the least harm". Why? Because if you start approaching the rules from that standpoint you will not be able to functionally play the game.