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Even with a 2+/ 5+, I think terminators aren't durable enough. Due to their high point cost, they should have 2 wounds. What do you think?

Post here dude

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/601513.page

No. Terminators are supposed to be tough as nails, but that's supposed to be their armor. They are, beneath it, just normal space marines ('normal' space marines.. ha.) Meganobz, the often evoked comparison, are 2w with no invulnerable save. They cost the same amount as termies but don't get a lot of the perks. Lower leadership, no invul, way less options gear wise (none in comparison, actually), no deepstrike, ect ect.

Termies would need to get a price hike if they were to go to two wounds. Or, alternatively, TEQ in other armies would themselves mandate a big buff. You mind facing down some Meganobz armed with SS/TH equivilent gear and a 5+ invul?

I guess a better fix would be toning down the amount of large blast ap2 weaponry.

There ARE terminators with two wounds, they're called paladins. Have you ever fought paladins? I have, they are quite annoying. Also Lone Wolves with their 2 wounds and FNP are also quite annoying. AP2 weapons are DESIGNED to kill models with tough armor. I mean terminators are tough, but a Meltagun shot is meant to kill tough units.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Termies would need to get a price hike if they were to go to two wounds. Or, alternatively, TEQ in other armies would themselves mandate a big buff. You mind facing down some Meganobz armed with SS/TH equivilent gear and a 5+ invul?

What would you recommend in terms of a price hike? They stand at 240 a 5 man squad, 44 per additional model. I'd like to terminators get an additional wound, as AP2 seems quite commonplace, making standard tac troops paper thin.

A reduction in price wouldn't do it for you instead?
I know some armies that would kill to get single wound 2+/5++ guys with those kinds of loadouts for 40ish points...

 skoffs wrote:
A reduction in price wouldn't do it for you instead?
I know some armies that would kill to get 2+/5++ guys with this kinds of loadouts for 40ish points...

I would settle for that. I guess its commonsense, but I feel like Terminators are more the kind of guys with a giant target on their back that everyone unloads on, so other than a LR, they seem to have limited survivability.

Deathwing Terminator wrote:I guess a better fix would be toning down the amount of large blast ap2 weaponry.

No freakin duh, dude.

How do you think we could do that?

Like, what about the game could be changed to prevent people from bringing so much of it?

Do you think taking away ap2 guns would be ok, or would that make things like riptides and terminators too powerful, since armies wouldn't have any way to deal with them?

jreilly89 wrote: AP2 seems quite commonplace, making standard tac troops paper thin.

So, isn't this your problem? How does that translate into changing terminators, instead of fixing the actual problem, the problem you just stated right there, that doesn't have "tactical dreadnought armor" anywhere in the statement?

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Post here dude

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/601513.page

Hey, but seriously feel free to start a new thread for everything and never look anywhere else.

starbomber109 wrote:There ARE terminators with two wounds, they're called paladins. Have you ever fought paladins? I have, they are quite annoying. Also Lone Wolves with their 2 wounds and FNP are also quite annoying. AP2 weapons are DESIGNED to kill models with tough armor. I mean terminators are tough, but a Meltagun shot is meant to kill tough units.

Yeah, here is this post, this is a good post.




Your problem is that a 2+ save, the best save possible, is supposed to make terminators hard to kill, but it doesn't. Terminators used to be scary, because they had 2+ saves, but then the game changed and now they aren't.

So you have this thing that doesn't work, and you know a reason why it doesn't work (more ap2 than there used to be). Your solution is to add something else, but keep the thing that doesn't work too.

 morganfreeman wrote:
No. Terminators are supposed to be tough as nails, but that's supposed to be their armor. They are, beneath it, just normal space marines ('normal' space marines.. ha.) Meganobz, the often evoked comparison, are 2w with no invulnerable save. They cost the same amount as termies but don't get a lot of the perks. Lower leadership, no invul, way less options gear wise (none in comparison, actually), no deepstrike, ect ect.

Average amount of AP2 wounds to kill a Terminator is 1.333…, the average amount of AP2 wounds to kill a Meganob is 2. The average amount of AP3 or worse wounds to kill a Meganob is 12, the average to kill a Terminator is 6. The only thing the Meganobz are worse against is S8+ AP2, due to Instant Death. The difference in durability is staggering.

Man, you should be happy you get even some invul. If every next codex is gona be designed like an ork one (which has good internal ballance but doesn't match well with all the rediculous stuff everyone else has right now), invulnerable saves are gona be extremely rare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
No. Terminators are supposed to be tough as nails, but that's supposed to be their armor. They are, beneath it, just normal space marines ('normal' space marines.. ha.) Meganobz, the often evoked comparison, are 2w with no invulnerable save. They cost the same amount as termies but don't get a lot of the perks. Lower leadership, no invul, way less options gear wise (none in comparison, actually), no deepstrike, ect ect.

Average amount of AP2 wounds to kill a Terminator is 1.333…, the average amount of AP2 wounds to kill a Meganob is 2. The average amount of AP3 or worse wounds to kill a Meganob is 12, the average to kill a Terminator is 6. The only thing the Meganobz are worse against is S8+ AP2, due to Instant Death. The difference in durability is staggering.

Why don't you have a 3++ guy in front?

 koooaei wrote:
Man, you should be happy you get even some invul. If every next codex is gona be designed like an ork one (which has good internal ballance but doesn't match well with all the rediculous stuff everyone else has right now), invulnerable saves are gona be extremely rare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
No. Terminators are supposed to be tough as nails, but that's supposed to be their armor. They are, beneath it, just normal space marines ('normal' space marines.. ha.) Meganobz, the often evoked comparison, are 2w with no invulnerable save. They cost the same amount as termies but don't get a lot of the perks. Lower leadership, no invul, way less options gear wise (none in comparison, actually), no deepstrike, ect ect.

Average amount of AP2 wounds to kill a Terminator is 1.333…, the average amount of AP2 wounds to kill a Meganob is 2. The average amount of AP3 or worse wounds to kill a Meganob is 12, the average to kill a Terminator is 6. The only thing the Meganobz are worse against is S8+ AP2, due to Instant Death. The difference in durability is staggering.

Why don't you have a 3++ guy in front?

Because C: SM can't mix shooty and choppy Terminators?

I'm talking about indeps with stormshields.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm talking about indeps with stormshields.

At which point the work player can pay for a Battlewagon and another 3 Meganobz.

Proxy your termies as meganobz. With Mob rule instead of ATSKNF, no deepstrike, no invul, SNP, ld7. Not trying to insult you or something, but you just picture things like: "Termies are garbage, maganobz are made of awesome, i want my termies to be meganobz".

Just don't add ld10 ATSKNF 3++ indeps in there cause we're comparing termies and meganobz in vacuum, right?

Wow the rudeness abounds in this thread.

Op has a valid original point, termies are bad, we know this is due to other books and partly due to the termies themselves, they are and have always been over costed for what you get, this is compounded by the ease of access to ap2, so an already over costed unit becomes worse.

Would 2 wounds fix this? no, it would help but otherwise it would make gw just raise the cost and thus lower the effectiveness even further, as those high str large blast ap2 weapons still exist, the only realistic way to make termies good again is to limit ap2 by a large margin and lower the cost of termies to such an.extent they could actually be used.

Thier are several workarounds and all involve a massive point decrease.

Reducing AP2 would require a massive overhaul of all codex.
Reducing the price would only affect a fraction.
It's obvious which way they should go... but if they did so, it would hardly be fair to all the other TEQs out there.
(you don't think Lychguard wish they could have 2+ saves while carrying a Warscythe AND a shield, all while being able to take assault vehicles? Were that to happen, Necron players around the world would rush out to buy boxes of the things).

 skoffs wrote:
A reduction in price wouldn't do it for you instead?
I know some armies that would kill to get single wound 2+/5++ guys with those kinds of loadouts for 40ish points...

Right here brah. 45 points for a 3+/4++ with only an ap3 weapon. Yeah, T5 and can stand back up, but seriously......I want a 2+ save other than an overlord.

 koooaei wrote:
Proxy your termies as meganobz. With Mob rule instead of ATSKNF, no deepstrike, no invul, SNP, ld7. Not trying to insult you or something, but you just picture things like: "Termies are garbage, maganobz are made of awesome, i want my termies to be meganobz".

Just don't add ld10 ATSKNF 3++ indeps in there cause we're comparing termies and meganobz in vacuum, right?

You keep ignoring that the Meganobz have an additional wound, making them more durable against everything that isn't S8+. Drowning Meganobz in wounds is significantly harder than drowning Terminators in wounds (twice as hard, in fact). Further, Deep Striking is rather awful, and Meganobz don't have to pay their own cost again to get a Dedicated Transport.

My local Ork player always runs Meganobz of some sort in his lists, it's probably the unit I've fought the most in the game. If Meganobz lose combat and get swept, odds are they mauled the living gak out of whatever they fought, and whatever they fought has to have been significantly powerful/expensive to beat them in the first place. They're dead 'ard.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Proxy your termies as meganobz. With Mob rule instead of ATSKNF, no deepstrike, no invul, SNP, ld7. Not trying to insult you or something, but you just picture things like: "Termies are garbage, maganobz are made of awesome, i want my termies to be meganobz".

Just don't add ld10 ATSKNF 3++ indeps in there cause we're comparing termies and meganobz in vacuum, right?

You keep ignoring that the Meganobz have an additional wound, making them more durable against everything that isn't S8+. Drowning Meganobz in wounds is significantly harder than drowning Terminators in wounds (twice as hard, in fact). Further, Deep Striking is rather awful, and Meganobz don't have to pay their own cost again to get a Dedicated Transport.

My local Ork player always runs Meganobz of some sort in his lists, it's probably the unit I've fought the most in the game. If Meganobz lose combat and get swept, odds are they mauled the living gak out of whatever they fought, and whatever they fought has to have been significantly powerful/expensive to beat them in the first place. They're dead 'ard.

I think you misunderstood me. I suggested that termies become meganobz. That's all. But to make things more ballanced, disallow them to be joined by any HQ. Cause 3++ HQ in a meganobz squad is way too much.

It's no way you're gona have sm stats with 2 wounds and an invul. They'd just have to cost like HQ's.

A huge problem that I have with TDA in general is that for the same cost, giving a character Artificier Armor/Runic Armor is always better. They're not bulky, and they can sweeping advance, which is must in many characters like the SM Chapter Master. I can never find a reason NOT to chose Artificier Armor over Termie armie, especially when they cost the same to upgrade.

This might be offset if HQs could take heavy weapons like Lascannons and whatnot (also taking advantage of their BS 5) but don't think thats gonna happen.

Having at least +1 T or +1 W would make me seriously considering taking TDA instead of artificier armor on a character.

My suggestion: TDA confers 2+, 5++, relentless, Deep Strike, Bulky, +1 wound, prevents sweeps.

+1 wound greatly improves their survivability, while retaining their vulnerability to meltaguns, lascannons and the like to keep people happy with that. +1 wound also keeps it competetive against AA or a bike on characters, as these choices are otherwise simply superior.

5 wound TDA Chapter Masters will be a pain but they will at least be slow, and slow melee units generally do not fare well anyway.

I would gladly support an option where terminators got twice as many wounds, but only if they cost twice as much.

Terminators are "bad" because people use them foolishly most of the time. It's not the unit's fault if they're thrown in front of an entire army unsupported and then just die.

In any case, I don't think what 40k needs more of is units that are relatively immune to small arms fire. If you want to make them more survivable, then fix monstrous creatures instead. When you have garbage like riptides that everyone needs to pack in anti-terminator weapons to have any hope of beating, then of course termies are going to look bad, meta-wise.

Cap MC Sv at 3+ or even 4+ and watch as terminators become suddenly extra-useful again.

 Ailaros wrote:
I would gladly support an option where terminators got twice as many wounds, but only if they cost twice as much.

An absurd notion. You could argue a small price bump, but double wounds will never be worth double price on anything. A 2W Terminator is as tough as 2 1W Terminators, justifying double price... But the latter have twice the attacks and twice the firepower.

I hope you were not seriously suggesting doubling the price for an extra wound.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:


Terminators are "bad" because people use them foolishly most of the time. It's not the unit's fault if they're thrown in front of an entire army unsupported and then just die.

You often dismiss complaints with 'l2p' justifications, but Terminators are bad even if you do not use them in a tanking role (Something that they are supposed to be good at.)

They can cut their way through units weaker than themselves, sure, but which unit can't do that?

In our meta, I have been permitted to apply a special upgrade to my Chaos Terminators, granting them +1 wound, +1 WS, +1 BS and VotlW for 15 PPM.

In combination with MoN it creates an expensive unit but one that can absorb a fair amount of damage, especially with attached, appropriately equipped ICs.

At 80 ppm with W2 they would be insanely underpowered even in the most friendly of games.

The meta is a problem, yes, but the very idea of this thread is a way to make Terminators more viable by changing them, not changing something else.

W2 Termies at 45 or 50 ppm or something would be fine.

 Ashiraya wrote:
W2 Termies at 45 or 50 ppm or something would be fine.

Make it 55-60, throwing in +1 S/T, and you might have yourself a deal...

 Ashiraya wrote:


Terminators are "bad" because people use them foolishly most of the time. It's not the unit's fault if they're thrown in front of an entire army unsupported and then just die.


You often dismiss complaints with 'l2p' justifications, but Terminators are bad even if you do not use them in a tanking role (Something that they are supposed to be good at.)

They can cut their way through units weaker than themselves, sure, but which unit can't do that?

I just want to go ahead and look once more at the lowly meganob, the most common comparison for this argument.

Meganobz are not often used to tank by ork players, and their primary role is beating the absolute snot out of weaker units. This is the exact same niche that terminators excel in, only they trade around a bit. Termies get invulnerable saves, can actually shoot things effectively (if you take non stabby ones I guess), have much larger gear options, and their assault variant is significantly scarier. Meganobz, on the flip side, get an extra wound, an extra attack, cheaper transport options, and are just sexier models because of customization options.

Both units are designed to be bullies, not deathstars. Use them to beat the crap out of -multiple- weaker units so that the rest of your army can handle the stuff which you don't want to risk your termies / manz against.

By-the-by, try having assault termies actually fight MANZ sometimes. The termies cornhole those poor orks so hard that you'll think twice about saying termies are useless whilst applauding MANZ. The same goes against monstrous creatures and any kind of unit that can beat 2+ in CC. MANZ are horde-killers that crumble if you can actually pierce their armor, termies are moderate sized unit killers (I.E. they're fine to take 10 tac marines or even 20 guardsmen, but you start having problem if a blob of 30 orks is throwing 120 attacks at you) which can trade effectively in CC with most non-deathstar units that still pack a punch.

 skoffs wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
W2 Termies at 45 or 50 ppm or something would be fine.

Make it 55-60, throwing in +1 S/T, and you might have yourself a deal...

Thats Centurion level COSTs, I fully expect two ranged weapons in that kind of deal.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


Terminators are "bad" because people use them foolishly most of the time. It's not the unit's fault if they're thrown in front of an entire army unsupported and then just die.


You often dismiss complaints with 'l2p' justifications, but Terminators are bad even if you do not use them in a tanking role (Something that they are supposed to be good at.)

They can cut their way through units weaker than themselves, sure, but which unit can't do that?

I just want to go ahead and look once more at the lowly meganob, the most common comparison for this argument.

Meganobz are not often used to tank by ork players, and their primary role is beating the absolute snot out of weaker units. This is the exact same niche that terminators excel in, only they trade around a bit. Termies get invulnerable saves, can actually shoot things effectively (if you take non stabby ones I guess), have much larger gear options, and their assault variant is significantly scarier. Meganobz, on the flip side, get an extra wound, an extra attack, cheaper transport options, and are just sexier models because of customization options.

Both units are designed to be bullies, not deathstars. Use them to beat the crap out of -multiple- weaker units so that the rest of your army can handle the stuff which you don't want to risk your termies / manz against.

By-the-by, try having assault termies actually fight MANZ sometimes. The termies cornhole those poor orks so hard that you'll think twice about saying termies are useless whilst applauding MANZ. The same goes against monstrous creatures and any kind of unit that can beat 2+ in CC. MANZ are horde-killers that crumble if you can actually pierce their armor, termies are moderate sized unit killers (I.E. they're fine to take 10 tac marines or even 20 guardsmen, but you start having problem if a blob of 30 orks is throwing 120 attacks at you) which can trade effectively in CC with most non-deathstar units that still pack a punch.

The thing with Meganobz is that they don't have to pay 250 points to get where they need to be. Trukks, while fragile, lets them get where they need to be without breaking the bank. Yes, TH/SS Terminators will slaughter them, but the Terminators aren't getting anywhere without a Land Raider, and they're more expensive than the MANz to boot.

The only fix I want for Terminators is to keep their cost and give them a special rule that allows them to re-roll saves against anything lower than S6 (1-5). So no re-rolls vs an auto cannon or meltagun, but they would still be indomitable against guardsmen's lasfire... You know.. As they should be.
This would force the enemy to concentrate high AP weapons to kill terminators, and not just pick units and throw massive ammounts of dice and just drown the terminators in saves, which all codices seem to be able to these days.

Zewarth, I believe the reason large amounts of dice kill Termies is because the sheer number of shots is supposed to eventually hit a week spot in the armour, killing the marine.