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Hi there, the GK player in my gaming group is insistent on this rule allowing him to reroll 1s all of the time, even against Blessings etc which you do not get to have modifiers against, but everyone else in the group (including myself) do not agree with. He asked a bunch of GK players on a forum (will not say which one) and claims that his point is valid just because two people agreed. What is your interpretation? Are we wrong or is he?
Many thanks, SGTPozy

Does it say when the unit is denying, or when the player is?
If it's whenever the player is denying, he would get it on non-targetted units (Blessings, Conjurations)
If it says the when the unit is denying, it's when the unit in question is targetted (Nova, Beam, Malediction, (Focussed) Witchfire)

I do remember this came up in a game, and we read it, we all agreed that it's only when the unit is the target due to the wording (again, this was last week and I don't remember it word for word).

Edit: Also, just because some people agree with his interpretation, it doesn't make it correct.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rerolls results of a 1 when making Deny the Witch tests"
He claims that he can still use this as it is not a 'modifier'.

Yeah I know, I just want to show him what other people who do not play GK think as the people he asked were biased towards the view due to the benefits it provides.

SGTPozy wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rerolls results of a 1 when making Deny the Witch tests"
He claims that he can still use this as it is not a 'modifier'.

Yeah I know, I just want to show him what other people who do not play GK think as the people he asked were biased towards the view due to the benefits it provides.

That's the one.

Though he IS correct in stating it is not a modifier (at least, it is not identified as such by the rulebook), do notice it says a unit with this special rule. How does a unit use a special effect or ability if they aren't the targe (without actual permission)t? By his logic, I can use counter attack if it's in my army, even if it's not a unit that has it since it works on "a unit".
^_^

FWIW, the GK player I played against did agree that it worked the way you and I interpret it (it came up since he mis-remembered. It's a new 'dex after all).

Thanks for the reply, that's a good argument with Counter Attack, but its mostly just him as a person really as he is the only one in the group to cause arguments.

Also, knowing that other GK players have the same view as us makes the view more solid too

SGTPozy wrote:
Thanks for the reply, that's a good argument with Counter Attack, but its mostly just him as a person really as he is the only one in the group to cause arguments.

Also, knowing that other GK players have the same view as us makes the view more solid too

Not a problem.

I hope you guys work it out and I hope it doesn't cause any serious arguments.

He asked a bunch of GK players on a forum (will not say which one) and claims that his point is valid just because two people agreed.

Aren't you now doing the same because one person agrees with you?


There are two different issues with this:
1. Is the Aegis a modifier or not?
Because modifiers don't work on DtW for Blessings. Seeing as re-rolls and modifiers to dice-rolls are two separate paragraphs in the BRB, it seems clear that it's not a modifier.
Relevant ruling: "Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or ‘the roll’). This is noted as D6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll (as appropriate) to get the final result."

2. Does the unit make a DtW-roll?
For Deny the Witch, you select one of your units that was a target of a psychic power and roll with modifiers.
But if none of your units were a target, you follow the same process without modifiers.
That has two interpretations:
A) You can select any unit to try a DtW, even if they were not the target. In this case you can use the Aegis.
B) You don't select a unit and try to DtW. In this case you wouldn't be able to use the Aegis.
You'd be "breaking a rule" anyway!
You either take a unit that is not targeted, which is illegal.
Or you don't select a unit, which is illegal.
With the current wording you are technically not capable of making DtW-tests against Blessings, so that really needs to be FAQ'd.

My vote goes to 'A)' because Deny the Witch is something that a unit does, it's not something you as the player do.

Thanks for the reply, that's a good argument with Counter Attack, but its mostly just him as a person really as he is the only one in the group to cause arguments.

How is 'Counter-attack' a good argument? Counter-attack is clear in its wording and has no connection to this rule.
"If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule, and that unit is charged, every model with the Counter-attack special rule in the unit..."
You have a unit with CA, I charge it and all models with that special rule in that unit gain the bonus.

No wonder he causes an argument. His army has a special bonus and you refuse to allow him to use it while the rules are really unclear about it.
What are your groups' arguments against not being able to use the Aegis against Blessings?

Kangodo, I agree that the Aegis is not a modifier. There is no argument from me on that.

Kangodo wrote:

Thanks for the reply, that's a good argument with Counter Attack, but its mostly just him as a person really as he is the only one in the group to cause arguments.

How is 'Counter-attack' a good argument? Counter-attack is clear in its wording and has no connection to this rule.
"If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule, and that unit is charged, every model with the Counter-attack special rule in the unit..."
You have a unit with CA, I charge it and all models with that special rule in that unit gain the bonus.

Counter Attack is relevant for it's wording only.
The wording for Aegis (from what I'm told) is

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rerolls results of a 1 when making Deny the Witch tests

(emphasis mine)
In both cases the rule needs a unit to contain at least one model to be able to be activated, and both require a target to be resolved.
So if that unit in question is not the target of the psychic power (or charge, in the case of counter attack), how does it activate and resolve its abilities? If you're claiming that a unit may still use this effect when it's not targeted, then I will do the same with Counter Attack, since I am using the same logic.

(I do apologise if any of that sounds aggressive or if it sounds like I'm being an a-hole, it's not my intended tone)

I do understand that with a DtW against a blessing you cannot choose a target, and it's sloppy and messy at that point.

Kangodo wrote:
Or you don't select a unit, which is illegal.

It's not illegal at all.

If no unit was selected as the target, then you can't choose a unit that was selected as a target.

There is no permission anywhere in the rules to select a unit to make a DtW roll if the psychic power did not target any of your units.

 insaniak wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Or you don't select a unit, which is illegal.

It's not illegal at all.

If no unit was selected as the target, then you can't choose a unit that was selected as a target.

There is no permission anywhere in the rules to select a unit to make a DtW roll if the psychic power did not target any of your units.

In fact the rules say if there is not target, the the opponent rolls DtW

Like others said it does need to be FAQ'ed.

However I leaned towards the argument that yes they can re-roll ones.

No where in The Aegis wording does it say that the unit has to be targeted to DtW. Maybe someone can show me in the BRB where a line modifies this interpretation.

Also the counter-attack argument was flawed, because that rule had a specific situation where it came into play. In this case the rule has two possible ways in can come into play do to bad wording.

In a way one can argue that since it doesn't specify "target" in its wording that yes it can re-roll denies on blessings.

Quickjager wrote:
Like others said it does need to be FAQ'ed.

It really doesn't.

No where in The Aegis wording does it say that the unit has to be targeted to DtW.

If the unit isn't targeted, the unit has no permission to roll a DtW.

edit


Automatically Appended Next Post:
if none of your units were targetted, none of your units get to deny.

the aegis requires that one of the units is targeted to DtW as the rule calls out that a unit gets to make rerolls, because a unit can only make DtW rolls if it was one of the targets for the psychic power. Specific units cannot DtW against non targeted powers

You do not have the option to nominate any unit to DtW against non targetted powers, so RAW there is no support at all for being allowed aegis rerolls.

By arguing that you can reroll 1s against Blessings because you have chosen a unit, which is illegal, by the same logic a CSM army should always use Kharn's 2+ deny then right? As, you know, according to your argument you can choose a unit to deny with

The rules tell us that if a unit is targeted, you can DtW with any bonuses, but if you are not targeted, you can still DtW without any bonuses. Either way, you can always roll for DtW. Is a re-roll a modifier? No, that's been established.

So the crux of the issue is, should a GK player be allowed to re-roll 1's on a 6+ save? A 6+ save, I'd like to add, that needs to match in number of rolls equal to the number of successes the opponent rolled. Seeing as GK have a special rules that allows a re-roll 1's for DtW as long as a GK model is in "the unit", and a DtW can always be rolled by "the unit" even if not targeted, it does not break the game to allow a Psyker with a special rule to re-roll 1's on a failed DtW to actually use that special rule to re-roll 1's on a failed DtW. The re-roll 1's effects any DtW roll a GK player choses to make, because the rules for Denying a Blessing still require a DtW roll, which has to occur from a model point if view (eg, it's the model Denying the Witch, not the player). So regardless of "the unit" being targeted, "the unit" can (per the BRB) roll to Deny. If a GK model is in "the unit", "the unit" can re-roll 1's on failed Denies.

I would say that the OP's opponent was correct, by RAW.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The rules tell us that if a unit is targeted, you can DtW with any bonuses, but if you are not targeted, you can still DtW without any bonuses. Either way, you can always roll for DtW. Is a re-roll a modifier? No, that's been established.

So the crux of the issue is, should a GK player be allowed to re-roll 1's on a 6+ save? A 6+ save, I'd like to add, that needs to match in number of rolls equal to the number of successes the opponent rolled. Seeing as GK have a special rules that allows a re-roll 1's for DtW as long as a GK model is in "the unit", and a DtW can always be rolled by "the unit" even if not targeted, it does not break the game to allow a Psyker with a special rule to re-roll 1's on a failed DtW to actually use that special rule to re-roll 1's on a failed DtW. The re-roll 1's effects any DtW roll a GK player choses to make, because the rules for Denying a Blessing still require a DtW roll, which has to occur from a model point if view (eg, it's the model Denying the Witch, not the player). So regardless of "the unit" being targeted, "the unit" can (per the BRB) roll to Deny. If a GK model is in "the unit", "the unit" can re-roll 1's on failed Denies.

I would say that the OP's opponent was correct, by RAW.

SJ

The bolded is not supported by RAW it is your assumption. YOU get to make a DtW roll against any power, a UNIT only gets to make a DtW attempt if it is the target of said power. That is an important distinction.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The rules tell us that if a unit is targeted, you can DtW with any bonuses, but if you are not targeted, you can still DtW without any bonuses. Either way, you can always roll for DtW. Is a re-roll a modifier? No, that's been established.J

Away from books at the moment, but if it says no bonuses, then you would not get the re-roll as it is a bonus.


Of course either way it is moot, as the unit has to make the DtW, and since the player is not the unit...

 Ond Angel wrote:
Counter Attack is relevant for it's wording only.
The wording for Aegis (from what I'm told) is

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rerolls results of a 1 when making Deny the Witch tests

(emphasis mine)
In both cases the rule needs a unit to contain at least one model to be able to be activated, and both require a target to be resolved.
So if that unit in question is not the target of the psychic power (or charge, in the case of counter attack), how does it activate and resolve its abilities? If you're claiming that a unit may still use this effect when it's not targeted, then I will do the same with Counter Attack, since I am using the same logic.

The problem is that 'Deny the Witch' basically says that you can select a unit that is targeted, even when no unit is targeted.
That doesn't make sense at all.
Counter-attack has a completely different wording.

 insaniak wrote:
There is no permission anywhere in the rules to select a unit to make a DtW roll if the psychic power did not target any of your units.

"If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power ... you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls.."
And the same procedure requires you to select a unit that was targeted.

 CrownAxe wrote:
In fact the rules say if there is not target, the the opponent rolls DtW

Could you quote the rule that says this?

Kangodo wrote:

 Ond Angel wrote:
Counter Attack is relevant for it's wording only.
The wording for Aegis (from what I'm told) is

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rerolls results of a 1 when making Deny the Witch tests

(emphasis mine)
In both cases the rule needs a unit to contain at least one model to be able to be activated, and both require a target to be resolved.
So if that unit in question is not the target of the psychic power (or charge, in the case of counter attack), how does it activate and resolve its abilities? If you're claiming that a unit may still use this effect when it's not targeted, then I will do the same with Counter Attack, since I am using the same logic.

The problem is that 'Deny the Witch' basically says that you can select a unit that is targeted, even when no unit is targeted.
That doesn't make sense at all.
Counter-attack has a completely different wording.

 insaniak wrote:
There is no permission anywhere in the rules to select a unit to make a DtW roll if the psychic power did not target any of your units.

"If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power ... you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls.."
And the same procedure requires you to select a unit that was targeted.

 CrownAxe wrote:
In fact the rules say if there is not target, the the opponent rolls DtW

Could you quote the rule that says this?

Can you quote a rule that says you can pick any unit? If you 'follow the same procedure' you have to pick a unit that was a target of the spell. Since you don't control any units that were a target that line of text tells you to do something to cannot do. So either a) you can't DtW which is clearly not the case given the rule you quoted, or b) you get to DtW but skip the step to select a unit since there is no unit that qualifies for that step.

I admit B) seems counter-intuitive an like you are ignoring rules. But of the two options it is the only interpretation that makes sense. There is precisely zero justification for selecting a unit that has nothing to do with the power in the first place.

The "no modifiers to dice rolls" part is pretty clear cut to me. If no unit with the Aegis is targeted, the Aegis doesn't kick in.

Kangodo wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
In fact the rules say if there is not target, the the opponent rolls DtW

Could you quote the rule that says this?

From the table for Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence

"If the Psychic test was passed, one of the enemy targets gets a chance to expend Warp Charge points to nullify the power by taking a Deny the Witch test. If the psychic power does not target an enemy unit, your opponent can still attempt to Deny the Witch, but will not be able to use any bonuses."

That is a very wide interpretation.
Your opponent can still attempt to DtW, and the DtW-rules tell you how to do that: by selecting a unit that was targeted.

chanceafs wrote:
Can you quote a rule that says you can pick any unit? If you 'follow the same procedure' you have to pick a unit that was a target of the spell. Since you don't control any units that were a target that line of text tells you to do something to cannot do. So either a) you can't DtW which is clearly not the case given the rule you quoted, or b) you get to DtW but skip the step to select a unit since there is no unit that qualifies for that step.

I admit B) seems counter-intuitive an like you are ignoring rules. But of the two options it is the only interpretation that makes sense. There is precisely zero justification for selecting a unit that has nothing to do with the power in the first place.

I fully agree.
But as you said: We have two wrongs. And two wrongs don't make a right.
There is zero justification for selecting a unit that wasn't targeted.
But there is also zero RAW-justification for not selecting a unit at all.

And if we go HIWPI, one could easily say that he plays it with the GK's rerolling their 1's.

Kangodo wrote:
That is a very wide interpretation.
Your opponent can still attempt to DtW, and the DtW-rules tell you how to do that: by selecting a unit that was targeted.

Except that's not what they say at all.

One of the units that was targeted gets to DtW. If no unit was targeted, then your opponent gets to DtW. Nowhere do the rules say to chose a unit to perform the DtW in that latter case

 insaniak wrote:
Except that's not what they say at all.
One of the units that was targeted gets to DtW. If no unit was targeted, then your opponent gets to DtW. Nowhere do the rules say to chose a unit to perform the DtW in that latter case

So what does the BRB tell us on how to DtW?
1) Select a unit that was a target.
2) Expend a number of WC-points.
3) Roll an equal amount of D6's
4) Apply the following modifiers.
5) Compare result.
6) Sum it all up and see if your DtW is successful.

Then it has a section on what to do when you are not targeted.
That section allows you to skip step 4, it does NOT allow you to skip step 1.
Conclusion: The current way is broken and needs to be FAQ'd.

Kangodo wrote:
1) Select a unit that was a target.

... unless there was no unit targeted, in which case your opponent rolls the DtW.

 insaniak wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
1) Select a unit that was a target.

... unless there was no unit targeted, in which case your opponent rolls the DtW.

If no unit was targeted you can roll, except with not modifiers. It doesn't say skip the step of choosing a unit. Honestly I'm not going either way with this. I'm pretty undecided.

Kangodo wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Except that's not what they say at all.
One of the units that was targeted gets to DtW. If no unit was targeted, then your opponent gets to DtW. Nowhere do the rules say to chose a unit to perform the DtW in that latter case

So what does the BRB tell us on how to DtW?
1) Select a unit that was a target.
2) Expend a number of WC-points.
3) Roll an equal amount of D6's
4) Apply the following modifiers.
5) Compare result.
6) Sum it all up and see if your DtW is successful.

Then it has a section on what to do when you are not targeted.
That section allows you to skip step 4, it does NOT allow you to skip step 1.
Conclusion: The current way is broken and needs to be FAQ'd.

It also says not to apply any modifiers. Re-rolling ones seems like a modification.

To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy’s psychic power. You will then need to expend a...

so the first step is to pick a unit that was a target of the enemy psychic power.

If there was no target you cannot pick a unit.

moving on...

If none of your units were the target of the enemy’s psychic power (the power in question might have been a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker’s own troops) you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls – you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points.

You cannot pick a unit to deny with if none of your units were targetted.

however you the opponent can attempt to deny as per the above rule with no modifiers, because you the opponent have no special rules that let you modify stuff.

Aegis calls out that the grey knight unit has to be the unit making the DtW test, which it is not if its a non targetted power.

this is not even a rules discussion.

this is a case of some people not following the RAW.

 Sothas wrote:
It doesn't say skip the step of choosing a unit..

It doesn't give you the option of picking a unit if no unit was targeted.

You are only given permission to choose a unit that was targeted by the power. If no unit was targeted, there is simply no way given in the rules for any of your units to DtW.

I have nothing to add that has not already been said several times; but no, the Aegis does not work on blessings....