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I want to have Snikrot as my Warlord for a small game, but still need to fill the force org chart. Can I take a little mek as an HQ, or is he only in that section of the book because of the Mekaniak Mek special rule?

Change from 6th edition allows you to choose any character to be your Warlord.

As it is you still need to fill the mandatory HQ slot. Meks don't fill a slot.

Check the 'Mekaniaks' rule in the Mek's entry.

The entry says, "For each HQ choice in a detachment (not including other Meks)"...
This implies that the Mek can be an HQ slot doesn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a Mekaniak he doesn't take a force org chart and therefore can't be an HQ

For each HQ choice...

The Mek is an HQ choice, however, it does not fill a slot on a FOC.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
The entry says, "For each HQ choice in a detachment (not including other Meks)"...
This implies that the Mek can be an HQ slot doesn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a Mekaniak he doesn't take a force org chart and therefore can't be an HQ

As the first passage states, you have to take an HQ choice other than a Mek in order to include a Mek. No other HQ choices, no Mek in the detachment.

I think the passage means that you can't take a Mekaniak Mek off a normal mek

Uh, 'Mekaniak' is the name of the rule and applies to all Meks.

I just call the slotless Meks Mekaniaks

They're all slotless. Again, the 'Mekaniak' rule doesn't say that it's optional.

It says "May" in the entry

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
It says "May" in the entry

Try reading the rest of the sentence:

For each HQ choice in a Detachment (not including other Meks) you may include a single Mek chosen from this datasheet.

That only means that you don't have to include a Mek if you don't want to. "May include a single Mek..." is not the same as "May include a single Mek and choose not to use the 'Mekaniak' special rule..."

They have the HQ Icon on their data sheet, so you can take one for your HQ.

If you take one for an HQ, you don't get a second one outside the FOC chart.

The icon describes it's battlefield role and is no different than when the had the words "HQ" up in the earlier codices. It doesn't change it's rules to say that you can take one and ignore the 'Mekaniak' special rule.

 Ghaz wrote:
The icon describes it's battlefield role and is no different than when the had the words "HQ" up in the earlier codices. It doesn't change it's rules to say that you can take one and ignore the 'Mekaniak' special rule.

You don't ignore the rule, you take 3 hq's

warboss, weirdboy, mek

I have 3 hq choices in my detachments, but as one's a mek I can only get 2 additional meks from the mekaniaks rule.

For each HQ choice (not including other meks)

strongly implying you can take meks as HQ choices, Along with the fact they are a HQ choice.

Again, being an HQ choice doesn't mean that they fill a slot on the Force Organization chart (mandatory or not). The OP was wanting to take a Mek without any other HQ choices in the army. That is not possible.

And yes, you are ignoring the rule for your first Mek. You're ignoring the rule that says you can include a single Mek for each HQ choice in your detachment, excluding other Meks. You only have two HQ choices which are not Meks (Warboss and Weirdboy) so you can only have two Meks and not three. You don't have an HQ choice for that first Mek. This has absolutely nothing to do with being an HQ choice. All the "... not including other Meks..." does is prevent you from taking an infinite number of Meks as long as you have the points for them.

What Ghaz is saying is correct, otherwise SM could take Honor Guard or Command Squad as an HQ, which is not allowed, as they have the same kind of rule (honor guard for each chapter master, command squad for each captain).

sirlynchmob wrote:
They have the HQ Icon on their data sheet, so you can take one for your HQ.

If you take one for an HQ, you don't get a second one outside the FOC chart.

Thank you. Finally someone sees what I see.

I suspect strongly that RAI is for one to be able to take one Mek for each HQ, per the Mekaniaks note.

However, RAW, the Mekaniaks bit appears to just give me one additional method for fielding Meks. I don't see anything preventing me from just paying 15 points and getting a Mek as an HQ choice that takes up a Force Org slot.

If the Mekaniaks bit had been worded something like "Meks may only be selected using the Mekaniaks rule" then I would agree. As is, I see nothing preventing this.

The SM Honor Guard/Command Squad/etc. are different in that they are surrounded by boxes in the entry list, thereby setting them apart from the rest of the entries. Also, the restrictions on how to choose them are at the top of the entry, not down within the rules and options.

Its wording is really not that dissimilar to other units that have to be unlocked first (Necron Royal Court, Dark Eldar Court of the Archon, etc.) with the exception that any HQ choice except another Mek can unlock it instead of a specific HQ (Necron Overlord or Dark Eldar Archon).

As is, I see nothing in the wording of the 'Mekaniaks' rule that makes it optional.

Yes they have an HQ, BUT they don't fill a slot AND they require 1 normal, non-mek HQ choice to be selected to unlock one "Mek Slot" so to speak. So unless you're playing unbound, taking a 15 point mek ain't gonna happen. I can see where you are coming from considering the wording of the rule making it out to be a permissive ruleset (as in you can take Meks as an HQ slot OR can it as a slotless HQ as long as theres another HQ for it to piggy back on) rather than restrictive (it says you MAY take one for each HQ as a slotless HQ rather than You may ONLY take one for each HQ as a slotless HQ, so I think a case is to be made for RAW, but I think RAI is clearly off).

Because little Meks are not independent characters, and because the Mekaniak rule covers their "advisor" status, I don't think they can be taken on their own. Or else they're a 15 point one model unit that can never join units because they didn't fulfill the parameters of being selected as a slotless HQ (which the consensus seems to be is the only way to take one. The thought of taking one as a slotted HQ and ignoring the mekaniak rule entirely didn't even cross my mind until I read this post).

It's not ignoring the Mekaniak rule, it just wouldn't apply in this case.

 Ghaz wrote:
Its wording is really not that dissimilar to other units that have to be unlocked first (Necron Royal Court, Dark Eldar Court of the Archon, etc.) with the exception that any HQ choice except another Mek can unlock it instead of a specific HQ (Necron Overlord or Dark Eldar Archon).

As is, I see nothing in the wording of the 'Mekaniaks' rule that makes it optional.

You can field Meks as HQ by default. The rule "Mekaniaks" does not imply in any way that this default does not apply. For that reason you can both use the default and the mekaniaks rule to buy meks, while the later would not count as mandatory HQ choice.

Waaagh 18 wrote:It's not ignoring the Mekaniak rule, it just wouldn't apply in this case.

Yes, you are ignoring it as nothing indicates that it doesn't apply.

Jidmah wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Its wording is really not that dissimilar to other units that have to be unlocked first (Necron Royal Court, Dark Eldar Court of the Archon, etc.) with the exception that any HQ choice except another Mek can unlock it instead of a specific HQ (Necron Overlord or Dark Eldar Archon).

As is, I see nothing in the wording of the 'Mekaniaks' rule that makes it optional.

You can field Meks as HQ by default. The rule "Mekaniaks" does not imply in any way that this default does not apply. For that reason you can both use the default and the mekaniaks rule to buy meks, while the later would not count as mandatory HQ choice.

Yes it does explicitly state that the default doesn't apply by not stating it's an 'alternate way' to deploy Meks or that it's optional, just like the Necron Royal Cout and Dark Eldar Court of the Archon.

Please point to the part where it explicitly says so. Make sure to quote the exact words.

Mekaniaks: For each HQ choice in a Detachment (not including other Meks) you may include a single Mek chosen from this datasheet. These selections do not use up Force Organisation slots. Before the battle, immediately after determining Warlord Traits, any Mek that is not already part of another unit must, if possible, be assigned to any unit with the Infantry or Artillery type in their Detachment; a Mek cannot leave his unit and is treated as part of it for the entire battle for all rules purposes.

Because it does not. There isn't even an implication in the codex that you can't field a mek on it's own, unlike the box around the necron council you keep quoting. Also note the different choice of words "These selections do not use up Force Organisation slots." vs "This unit does not take up an HQ choice.", quite clearly referring to meks selected via the Mekaniaks rule rather being chose regularly as a HQ choice.

A mek is listed in the exact same way as all other HQs. If you cannot field a mek as singular HQ choice, you cannot field any HQ choices from the ork codex, making it impossible to field ork detachments.

It's explicit in that it does not say that it's optional or an alternate way to choose a Mek. The only way that you can choose a Mek without using the 'Mekaniaks' rule is to willfully ignore the rule.

So again, what allows you to ignore a rule without an explicit permission to do so? You're argument that since its listed like other HQs is meaningless. It's not a blanket statement that you get to ignore the 'Mekaniaks' rule, or are you saying that a Necron Royal Court doesn't require an Overlord or a Dark Eldar Court of the Archon doesn't require an Archon?

It's quite easy, Ghaz is right as to how that rule works.

"Can I take a little mek as an HQ?"
Not on its own.

Rules: "For each HQ choice in a Detachment (not including other Meks) you may include"
You can only follow the "green" rule when the "orange" condition is met. Red is a restriction so that you can't have 2 Meks HQs and say that one of them is "Orange condition".

Clearer?

 BlackTalos wrote:
"Can I take a little mek as an HQ?"
Not on its own.

That's not a rule.

Rules: "For each HQ choice in a Detachment (not including other Meks) you may include"
You can only follow the "green" rule when the "orange" condition is met. Red is a restriction so that you can't have 2 Meks HQs and say that one of them is "Orange condition".

Clearer?

There is nothing unclear. You are simply clearly wrong.

Exact quote from "Choosing your army": The boxes on a Force Organisation Chart are referred to as slots. Each slot will typically specify a Battlefield Role. Each slot allows you to take one unit. Black boxes are compulsory selections – you must take at least this many units of the appropriate Battlefield Role to include this Detachment in your army. If you cannot include the compulsory number of units, you cannot include that Detachment. Grey boxes are optional selections – you can include up to this number of units of the appropriate Battlefield Role when including this Detachment in your army. Any further units of the same Battlefield Role will need to be taken in a different Detachment. For example, in order to take a Combined Arms Detachment, you must select two units with the Troops Battlefield Role, and cannot select more than six in the same Detachment.

The bolded parts allow me to include models with the HQ Battlefield Role in my detachment. Meks have the HQ Battlefield Role. The mekaniaks rule does not contradict this in any way. Therefore anyone can field a mek by either using the basic rules or the mekaniaks rule.

Note that those codices you named (as well as others, for example Codex: Space Marines) use boxes to identify units which can only be taken as part of another choice, with the limitation written on top of the box. Unlike the mek, none of them are explicitly marked as HQ choice. The mek has its own page, is not listed at the end of all other HQs, has a HQ symbol on top and simply has Mekaniaks listed as one of its special rules. There is absolutely no reason to assume that you cannot take him like any other HQ - except arbitrarily applying logic from old codices.

I'd also like to point out that neither of you has quoted a single rule stating the opposite so far.

And again, it's no different than a Royal Court or Court of the Archon. The 'Mekaniaks' rule adds an additional restriction on how you can choose a Mek, one you're willfully ignoring.

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, it's no different than a Royal Court or Court of the Archon. The 'Mekaniaks' rule adds an additional restriction on how you can choose a Mek, one you're willfully ignoring.

Indeed, this part right here:

 Jidmah wrote:
Therefore anyone can field a mek by either using the basic rules or the mekaniaks rule.

You are telling me you can field:
A) a Mek without the mekaniaks rule
B) a Mek with mekaniaks rule

A) is simply you ignoring a rule, not a new type of battlefield unit.

 Jidmah wrote:
Note that those codices you named (as well as others, for example Codex: Space Marines) use boxes to identify units which can only be taken as part of another choice, with the limitation written on top of the box. Unlike the mek, none of them are explicitly marked as HQ choice. The mek has its own page, is not listed at the end of all other HQs, has a HQ symbol on top and simply has Mekaniaks listed as one of its special rules. There is absolutely no reason to assume that you cannot take him like any other HQ - except arbitrarily applying logic from old codices.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/645715-.html

It has its own page, is not listed at the end of all other HQs, has a HQ symbol on top. There is absolutely no reason to assume that you cannot take him like any other HQ.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd also like to point out that neither of you has quoted a single rule stating the opposite so far.

Rules Quote:"For each HQ choice in a Detachment (not including other Meks) you may include a single Mek chosen from this datasheet."

When you list your "HQ choice in a Detachment", you can have your Mek (from this datasheet).